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Author Topic: Crafting Feat Idea  (Read 1343 times)

myrddraal

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2022, 10:30:44 AM »
Gating crafting behind level locks seems completely unnecessary to me.  If you are a low level there WILL be a hard cap on how advanced you can become.  Smithing for example.  Sure, you can get Dlarun to get into high 30s because its just laying around Sithicus, but if you're level sub level 10, you're PROBABLY not going to Perfidus for adamantine and mercury or the fire salamanders in Hazlan for fever iron and mercury.  You also more than likely arent getting a group to go kill the shadow dragon area for mercury to practice guilding and its highly unlikely they're going to have 30+k to spend on it from a vendor.

DM Spectre

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2022, 10:34:26 AM »
Tailoring suffers from this more than many other forms of crafting, at least in my observation.

This is why I suggest gating mastery behind actual character levels. It achieves what MAB seems to be after which is to slow down the progression of craft mastery while still allowing characters the option to pursue any craft they like. Additionally, it doesn't require any extranious investment in feats for those classes that are already somewhat starved for feats.

Another suggestion would be to introduce an actual Skill where players could invest in crafting. Make it a broad skill that affects all crafts and, similar to other skills, allow for break points where enough skillpoints invested allows for higher levels of mastery.

It also forces people to having to go get EXP and dungeon and level up all the time just so they can play a merchant. I understand your reasoning behind this, but I find it'll just ruin the best thing about POTM crafting system, which is that it doesn't limit you based on your level or feats, but rewards you based on your character actually spending the time to learn a craft.

MAB and the community frankly seems to be on two different sides here, while one side believes there are too many crafters, the other side says there cannot be 'too many crafters' and I agree. If any feats are going to be added, they should make crafting easier for those who wish to take them by changing up their build, but the system should stay the same, not become more gatekept. We already have the requirement of being rich for it, and for some crafts, going to high level dungeons. It doesn't make sense that being high level enough to kill demons and devils in Perfidus would be a requirement to be a master blacksmith, or a herbalist, or a tailor. I hope I am able to convey my thoughts properly.

No I agree with you completely on this BFP 2.0. I don't think it should be restricted to one craft skill to be mastered or anything similar to that. But I would venture to guess that by now your character has gained a few levels just though RPXP. Which I know to be much slower than other means of gaining experience. But if the intent is to slow down the progression then I think a character level gate might be warrented. They could always create a feat for someone like your character to become a merchant type PC that allows them to gain a greater level of mastery without having to go out and level, thus removing or reducing the gate and allowing your non-adventurer PC to delve further into that non-adventure role.

I'm simply presenting an option that achieves the goal of slowing the progression while preserving everyones ability to master whatever craft they choose and however many crafts they choose. I suspect your character would be an outlier, not to say that your play isn't highly valuable, but that would be a good reason to introduce feats that might subvert a gating system. The main reason I'm against using feats is because that limits people in an entirely different way.

DM Spectre

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2022, 10:35:47 AM »
Gating crafting behind level locks seems completely unnecessary to me.  If you are a low level there WILL be a hard cap on how advanced you can become.  Smithing for example.  Sure, you can get Dlarun to get into high 30s because its just laying around Sithicus, but if you're level sub level 10, you're PROBABLY not going to Perfidus for adamantine and mercury or the fire salamanders in Hazlan for fever iron and mercury.  You also more than likely arent getting a group to go kill the shadow dragon area for mercury to practice guilding and its highly unlikely they're going to have 30+k to spend on it from a vendor.

But there is nothing stopping you from acquiring these materials through other means. And if you're a savy investor, there's no reason you'd ever have to leave the outskirts to acquire wealth enough to purchase said materials.

myrddraal

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2022, 11:10:08 AM »
Gating crafting behind level locks seems completely unnecessary to me.  If you are a low level there WILL be a hard cap on how advanced you can become.  Smithing for example.  Sure, you can get Dlarun to get into high 30s because its just laying around Sithicus, but if you're level sub level 10, you're PROBABLY not going to Perfidus for adamantine and mercury or the fire salamanders in Hazlan for fever iron and mercury.  You also more than likely arent getting a group to go kill the shadow dragon area for mercury to practice guilding and its highly unlikely they're going to have 30+k to spend on it from a vendor.

But there is nothing stopping you from acquiring these materials through other means. And if you're a savy investor, there's no reason you'd ever have to leave the outskirts to acquire wealth enough to purchase said materials.

So that should be punished?  For choosing to RP and build a trade network on an RP server?  Forgoing the grind for mechanical power in exchange for powerful IC connections?

DM Spectre

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2022, 05:14:19 PM »
Gating crafting behind level locks seems completely unnecessary to me.  If you are a low level there WILL be a hard cap on how advanced you can become.  Smithing for example.  Sure, you can get Dlarun to get into high 30s because its just laying around Sithicus, but if you're level sub level 10, you're PROBABLY not going to Perfidus for adamantine and mercury or the fire salamanders in Hazlan for fever iron and mercury.  You also more than likely arent getting a group to go kill the shadow dragon area for mercury to practice guilding and its highly unlikely they're going to have 30+k to spend on it from a vendor.

But there is nothing stopping you from acquiring these materials through other means. And if you're a savy investor, there's no reason you'd ever have to leave the outskirts to acquire wealth enough to purchase said materials.

So that should be punished?  For choosing to RP and build a trade network on an RP server?  Forgoing the grind for mechanical power in exchange for powerful IC connections?

Well, considering as a level 2 character you cannot claim to have been a knight of the realm, I'd say yes. Earning mastery in a craft (the kind of mastery we're talking about here isn't like a blacksmith creating a very nice piece of steel armor) at lvl 2 doesn't reflect what a lvl 2 character would be capable of.

The point, however, of the suggestion is not to lock mastery behind a lvl 20 gate or anything so absurd, but to keep it in proportion to the "pace" the dm team is looking to achieve. By RPing and existing in western barovia, you will hit lvl 12 in a reasonable amount of time. Levelling up beyond that simply requires more time, if you're playing a non adventurer type character. So lets say that Mastery was locked behind lvl 14 or 15. That's not barring anyone from achieving mastery and doesn't punish anyone for being a savy investor or exchanging mechanical power for powerful IC connections. It simply slows the pace to earning mastery in the craft which seems to be the intention stated by MAB77 in his initial post on the subject.

Furthermore, I don't like the idea of locking mastery behind feats, but rather allowing feats to enhance a particular artisan's playstyle. A feat that would allow someone who has dedicated their time to the crafts to acheive mastery regardless of level makes more sense to me than a feat that only allows you to gain mastery in one or two forms of crafting.

myrddraal

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2022, 05:28:14 PM »
Gating crafting behind level locks seems completely unnecessary to me.  If you are a low level there WILL be a hard cap on how advanced you can become.  Smithing for example.  Sure, you can get Dlarun to get into high 30s because its just laying around Sithicus, but if you're level sub level 10, you're PROBABLY not going to Perfidus for adamantine and mercury or the fire salamanders in Hazlan for fever iron and mercury.  You also more than likely arent getting a group to go kill the shadow dragon area for mercury to practice guilding and its highly unlikely they're going to have 30+k to spend on it from a vendor.

But there is nothing stopping you from acquiring these materials through other means. And if you're a savy investor, there's no reason you'd ever have to leave the outskirts to acquire wealth enough to purchase said materials.

So that should be punished?  For choosing to RP and build a trade network on an RP server?  Forgoing the grind for mechanical power in exchange for powerful IC connections?

Well, considering as a level 2 character you cannot claim to have been a knight of the realm, I'd say yes. Earning mastery in a craft (the kind of mastery we're talking about here isn't like a blacksmith creating a very nice piece of steel armor) at lvl 2 doesn't reflect what a lvl 2 character would be capable of.

The point, however, of the suggestion is not to lock mastery behind a lvl 20 gate or anything so absurd, but to keep it in proportion to the "pace" the dm team is looking to achieve. By RPing and existing in western barovia, you will hit lvl 12 in a reasonable amount of time. Levelling up beyond that simply requires more time, if you're playing a non adventurer type character. So lets say that Mastery was locked behind lvl 14 or 15. That's not barring anyone from achieving mastery and doesn't punish anyone for being a savy investor or exchanging mechanical power for powerful IC connections. It simply slows the pace to earning mastery in the craft which seems to be the intention stated by MAB77 in his initial post on the subject.

Furthermore, I don't like the idea of locking mastery behind feats, but rather allowing feats to enhance a particular artisan's playstyle. A feat that would allow someone who has dedicated their time to the crafts to acheive mastery regardless of level makes more sense to me than a feat that only allows you to gain mastery in one or two forms of crafting.

There is an incredibly easy path to like 36 smithing that even like, a level 8 can do on their own.  Without even making any armor which would require hides.  Steel is easy to get, dlarun like I said is just layin around in Sithicus and easy to gather a lot of safely.  Fever iron is already a soft level cap for smithing as is the mercury (which unless like I mentioned earlier, you've managed to make an immense amount of coin)  The other trades all have their own droppable soft caps too if you arent just buying all your ingredients.  I think the system we have is fine as it is.  With -maybe- the addition I had mentioned earlier with crafting feats based off mastering a craft and completely separate from character level feats.

yinyang

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2022, 05:33:48 PM »
Gating crafting behind level locks seems completely unnecessary to me.  If you are a low level there WILL be a hard cap on how advanced you can become.  Smithing for example.  Sure, you can get Dlarun to get into high 30s because its just laying around Sithicus, but if you're level sub level 10, you're PROBABLY not going to Perfidus for adamantine and mercury or the fire salamanders in Hazlan for fever iron and mercury.  You also more than likely arent getting a group to go kill the shadow dragon area for mercury to practice guilding and its highly unlikely they're going to have 30+k to spend on it from a vendor.

But there is nothing stopping you from acquiring these materials through other means. And if you're a savy investor, there's no reason you'd ever have to leave the outskirts to acquire wealth enough to purchase said materials.

So that should be punished?  For choosing to RP and build a trade network on an RP server?  Forgoing the grind for mechanical power in exchange for powerful IC connections?

Well, considering as a level 2 character you cannot claim to have been a knight of the realm, I'd say yes. Earning mastery in a craft (the kind of mastery we're talking about here isn't like a blacksmith creating a very nice piece of steel armor) at lvl 2 doesn't reflect what a lvl 2 character would be capable of.

The point, however, of the suggestion is not to lock mastery behind a lvl 20 gate or anything so absurd, but to keep it in proportion to the "pace" the dm team is looking to achieve. By RPing and existing in western barovia, you will hit lvl 12 in a reasonable amount of time. Levelling up beyond that simply requires more time, if you're playing a non adventurer type character. So lets say that Mastery was locked behind lvl 14 or 15. That's not barring anyone from achieving mastery and doesn't punish anyone for being a savy investor or exchanging mechanical power for powerful IC connections. It simply slows the pace to earning mastery in the craft which seems to be the intention stated by MAB77 in his initial post on the subject.

Furthermore, I don't like the idea of locking mastery behind feats, but rather allowing feats to enhance a particular artisan's playstyle. A feat that would allow someone who has dedicated their time to the crafts to acheive mastery regardless of level makes more sense to me than a feat that only allows you to gain mastery in one or two forms of crafting.

Crafting levels are completely separate from PC level, as PC level is a reflection of battle prowess. I don't think there's any merit at all to the statement that low level PCs cannot be high level crafters. They're two completely different paths.
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EarlofEtheria

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2022, 11:42:08 AM »
Low level characters cannot be proficient miners, lumberers or gatherers. Level is tied to a persons craft, its unescapable (especially considering attributes).

myrddraal

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2022, 08:19:29 PM »
Low level characters cannot be proficient miners, lumberers or gatherers. Level is tied to a persons craft, its unescapable (especially considering attributes).

again this is just flat out wrong.  There are very safe places for you to gather iron for steel, coal too if you dont buy it, and dlarun you can literally just pick up basically around Sithicus.  I have on many days went and gotten like 400 ore by just deciding "this is what my low level char is gonna do today." and gained a ton of smithing and smelting levels.  There is a *TON* of resources easily available to gather that will take you to mid if not upper 30s.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2022, 09:34:14 PM »
I don't see anything wrong with letting people progress crafts at whatever level they decide. With a group effort, it can work out. I've done it and I had fun. Level 4-9 or so was a great time with a crafter party. Low level crafters are obviously going to have a tougher time than richer high levels, and we don't have a low level crafter monopoly problem, most people would say we have a "high level crafter wiping out low level spawns to progress their craft from zero" problem.
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noah25

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2022, 10:57:34 PM »
I will throw my two cents in the ring.

Regarding the feats I am not totally opposed but have some concerns and would put forth an alternative.

Don't gate the best gear behind feats. My philosophy around crafting has always been that mastery should be a pursuit of heart and dedication, not easy and not restrictive.  Rather, I would suggest a model similar to what we did with appraise feats and that there is a selectable feat that would allow you to pursue a craft even if you have a negative natural modifier. It would work as follows:

-Aptitude For Crafting I- When crafting, the character gains +2 CXP for every successful item crafted that would normally yield at least 1CXP and +1 CXP per failure. This feat must be taken by level 2.
-Aptitude For Crafting II- When crafting, the character gains +3 CXP for every successful item crafted that would normally yield at least 1CXP and +2 CXP per failure. AFC I is requiredand the character must have at least 25 crafting levels in one or more crafts.
-Aptitude For Crafting III- When crafting, the character gains +3 CXP for every successful item crafted that would normally yield at least 1CXP and +2 CXP per failure. AFC Iand II are required and the character must have at least 100 total crafting levels of experience.
-Determination to learn- The character stubbornly refuses to accept that they are unable to learn any skill. Characters with this feat may take up any craft, regardless of their natural crafting modifier.

Regarding weakening crafted gear I have some thoughts:

-I think the issue is the highest tier gear in each craft is too strong, not crafted gear across the board. Specifically, I would say addy and mist dragon are the biggest problems at least from a combat perspective. Tailoring skills in general are rather high, but a lot of players dont appreciate tailoring even with that being said so.....  if we nerf anything I would be for buffing some of the weaker materials once enchanted like Asbestos, Yeti Wool, etc.

-I am fine with nerfing properties as long as the old gear is grandfathered. It's going to be very frustrating enchanting a 100k worth of xp on a character into gear for it to all be retroactively worse than what was bargained for. In terms of the comparison to loot drops I do and don't agree. I would say enchanting makes 90% of loot drops fairly valueless, but shouldn't it? You are basically saying you are willing to sacrifice your time and xp so you don't have to rely on randomness and there is still nothing thats going to remove the need and desire for the truly high end stuff everyone is needing all the time like iron martyrs, spot gear, etc.