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Author Topic: Crafting Feat Idea  (Read 1247 times)

apeppertoo

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2022, 02:41:34 PM »
If you're any form of spellcaster, you can't get spell slots out of crafted gear

There doesn't exist spell slot gear worth using above level 14 for sorcerer, and even before that it's arguable whether they're worth it.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2022, 03:03:04 PM »
The idea of offering a trade off between mechanical investment and grind is entirely workable.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, or disagreeing.

If you're any form of spellcaster, you can't get spell slots out of crafted gear

There doesn't exist spell slot gear worth using above level 14 for sorcerer, and even before that it's arguable whether they're worth it.

That's just because Sorcerers are the redheaded step-child of Ravenloft; Wizards, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Warmages, Warlocks, and Beguilers get plenty. Don't ask me why they decided that the class whose class feature is to cast a lot of magic, but from a very small selection, gets an extremely limited selection of spell slot items to build upon their core class strengths.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 03:06:10 PM by BraveSirRobin »

MAB77

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2022, 03:26:38 PM »
That's just because Sorcerers are the redheaded step-child of Ravenloft; Wizards, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Warmages, Warlocks, and Beguilers get plenty. Don't ask me why they decided that the class whose class feature is to cast a lot of magic, but from a very small selection, gets an extremely limited selection of spell slot items to build upon their core class strengths.

Sorcerers have plenty of spell slot items in the loot tables. More than most of the classes you mention actually. As ever, try suggesting new items here if you feel it would be a good addition.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2022, 03:29:37 PM »
Unless it's been updated in the past year or two, though I've never seen many in circulation, the complaint I had when I played a Sorcerer, others I've played with when playing a Sorcerer, is the lack of availability of Sorcerer gear in the loot table. Now, maybe it's just very rare... But.. Eh. I'm not going to derail this, I was just making a general point about how you can't craft items with spell slots.

apeppertoo

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2022, 03:33:26 PM »
Sorcerers have plenty of spell slot items in the loot tables. More than most of the classes you mention actually. As ever, try suggesting new items here if you feel it would be a good addition.

The highest spell slot gear I've seen or heard of for that class is a chest that grants one 2nd and one 4th slot cast. Not exactly something that electrifies someone with excitement once they're above level 12.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2022, 03:40:33 PM »
There's some har-akiran jewellery I'm aware of, though the amulet says it is gender restricted, and I've not seen the rings that used to be buyable for a hot minute.

Not really much beyond that. The weaker, new variant of the robes of sorcery are out there, and theres a helmet for sorcerers. That's pretty much it attainable in the loot tables currently available as far as I know (unless it was part of very new content.)

Haven't heard of any cloaks, boots, belts or gloves that do sorcery spellslots, perhaps its time to make those in the item suggestiom thread, or they're too rare due to value to show up.

Other classes that would have far fewer spellslots seem to have items in those slots.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 04:01:07 PM by zDark Shadowz »

MAB77

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2022, 03:59:21 PM »
Let's not hijack this thread please. It's really not about spell slot items, it's about crafting feats. My answer stands, suggest them in the appropriate thread if you feel we need more.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 04:01:00 PM by MAB77 »
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2022, 04:26:51 PM »
Unless it's been updated in the past year or two, though I've never seen many in circulation, the complaint I had when I played a Sorcerer, others I've played with when playing a Sorcerer, is the lack of availability of Sorcerer gear in the loot table. Now, maybe it's just very rare... But.. Eh. I'm not going to derail this, I was just making a general point about how you can't craft items with spell slots.

Sorcerers are easy to slot:

Two rings of isis in Harakir, greater amulet of isis, robes of sorcery, shukenja helm... I don't even remember if there is more.

Wizards, however...
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
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Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2022, 06:54:16 PM »
I like the idea of crafting feats. I also like the idea of not letting people master every craft. I had a lot of fun in a low level party of crafters where we each took one craft and worked together to create stuff like alchemical arrows or armour with lining.

Just spitballing, maybe you can master 1 or 2 crafts by default, the rest you can get up to level 10 or 20 or something, and then there's a feat that gives you another to master, plus a bonus.

I'd rather see this than a commoner class, because if someone wants to be a level 20 commoner, they can just be a level 20 of any class(es) and take a bunch of utility feats, we have plenty.
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ZSRunner

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2022, 07:31:43 PM »
Thank you for the suggestions. It is very timely as I was about to open a discussion with the player base regarding crafting in general. The idea of crafting feats is not new and still is currently being discussed, though first we should agree on the state of crafting on the server and on objectives to achieve.

1) Reducing the grind.

Yes, but again it needs to be replaced by something else. Right now the grind is the gate by which we limit master crafters. The recent changes really made crafting a lot easier than it ever was. We have more master crafters than ever. Too many in fact. Granted part of this was caused when some crafters suddenly became masters with the new DC thresholds. That part will subside in time as characters are shelved. But even with newer characters it's been very easy to achieve mastery in short lapses of times. So the grind as it is now is no longer the significant issue it once was. We should not/will not increase crafting XP until a different system is put in place.

What I would propose is to gate mastery of the crafts behind feats. All characters would still be able to reach mid-tier crafting levels on their own without any feat investments. They would still be able to craft higher-end stuff with a high roll. But to be able to craft high-end stuff reliably, they would need to invest into a craft mastery feat. Several ways of achieving this have been proposed:
- Simply gating DC 30 or 35+ stuff behind a given feat.
- Re-increase the high-end DCs, but have the mastery feat give a +20 bonus on a given craft and associated support crafts to bridge the gap.

The downside of course being that a lot of players that mastered all the crafts will suddenly lose their top-crafting abilities unless they sacrifice feats for those. So I can see this as not being popular.

2) Toning down some crafts.

Some crafted items are just too powerful. Nowadays many loot drop items are just sold to vendors because a mundane crafted item is better. Toning down their properties may provide reasons to use more loot drop items. I would for instance remove/reduce skill bonuses on armors. I'd also merge gauntlets and plated gloves into a single group of item. I would not touch enchanting properties. Though powerful, it is necessary for game balance in the end but I would drastically jack the XP cost for enchanting to make it a very serious sacrifice to go for one.

These are just musing. There is no plan to go forward with this at this time. But I want your opinions on the state of crafting and how to improve the current situation.

Wanted to come back to some of your original proposals. I for one, don't love the idea of feat gated mastery. I believe anyone who invests the time and energy into a craft should be able to achieve mastery in that craft. If it means that takes longer for some than others, that's ok by me, but anyone who invests should have the opportunity to gain mastery. 

I would, however, think about gating mastery behind character level. For instance, a lvl 2 character can gain mastery in a trade with the way crafts work currently. So what if the mastery was gated behind character level instead of a feat that may or may not be available to the character. Some classes simply do not have as many feats as others to throw around.

yinyang

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2022, 07:35:26 PM »
Thank you for the suggestions. It is very timely as I was about to open a discussion with the player base regarding crafting in general. The idea of crafting feats is not new and still is currently being discussed, though first we should agree on the state of crafting on the server and on objectives to achieve.

1) Reducing the grind.

Yes, but again it needs to be replaced by something else. Right now the grind is the gate by which we limit master crafters. The recent changes really made crafting a lot easier than it ever was. We have more master crafters than ever. Too many in fact. Granted part of this was caused when some crafters suddenly became masters with the new DC thresholds. That part will subside in time as characters are shelved. But even with newer characters it's been very easy to achieve mastery in short lapses of times. So the grind as it is now is no longer the significant issue it once was. We should not/will not increase crafting XP until a different system is put in place.

What I would propose is to gate mastery of the crafts behind feats. All characters would still be able to reach mid-tier crafting levels on their own without any feat investments. They would still be able to craft higher-end stuff with a high roll. But to be able to craft high-end stuff reliably, they would need to invest into a craft mastery feat. Several ways of achieving this have been proposed:
- Simply gating DC 30 or 35+ stuff behind a given feat.
- Re-increase the high-end DCs, but have the mastery feat give a +20 bonus on a given craft and associated support crafts to bridge the gap.

The downside of course being that a lot of players that mastered all the crafts will suddenly lose their top-crafting abilities unless they sacrifice feats for those. So I can see this as not being popular.

2) Toning down some crafts.

Some crafted items are just too powerful. Nowadays many loot drop items are just sold to vendors because a mundane crafted item is better. Toning down their properties may provide reasons to use more loot drop items. I would for instance remove/reduce skill bonuses on armors. I'd also merge gauntlets and plated gloves into a single group of item. I would not touch enchanting properties. Though powerful, it is necessary for game balance in the end but I would drastically jack the XP cost for enchanting to make it a very serious sacrifice to go for one.

These are just musing. There is no plan to go forward with this at this time. But I want your opinions on the state of crafting and how to improve the current situation.

Wanted to come back to some of your original proposals. I for one, don't love the idea of feat gated mastery. I believe anyone who invests the time and energy into a craft should be able to achieve mastery in that craft. If it means that takes longer for some than others, that's ok by me, but anyone who invests should have the opportunity to gain mastery. 

I would, however, think about gating mastery behind character level. For instance, a lvl 2 character can gain mastery in a trade with the way crafts work currently. So what if the mastery was gated behind character level instead of a feat that may or may not be available to the character. Some classes simply do not have as many feats as others to throw around.

I'd be against gating behind character level, and I think there's no way of enforcing that after the fact.

However, I want to chime in with my support for restricting mastery of every single craft. However, it has the same drawback--probably impossible to do now that the cat is already out of the bag.
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ZSRunner

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2022, 08:07:20 PM »
I'd ask, why shouldn't someone be allowed to master every single craft? If they're willing to put the time and energy into it, they should be allowed to master it.

Gating it behind lvl would be simple. It doesn't need to be policed if it's mechanical. It makes sense to me as a person grows in experience so too does their ability to master their craft.

The gate doesn't have to extend all the way to level 20. Perhaps it could be gated around lvl 15 or so to acquire mastery in any given craft skill.

EarlofEtheria

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2022, 10:34:51 PM »
How about an amalgamation of suggestions:

Quote
Feat: Labourer
Description: Grants a +5 bonus to crafting rolls of the following crafts: Carpentry, Hide Curing, Leather Boiling, Smelting, Weaving.
Quote
Feat: Tradesperson (Craft)
Requirements: 10 ranks in a Craft.
Description: Grants a +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring a selected craft's favoured attributes, penalizing other crafting rolls as listed. This feat may prohibit the crafting of certain items if the total modifier for a required attribute becomes -2 or lower.

Alchemy, +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring Constitution or Intelligence, -1 attribute bonus for crafts other than Alchemy.
Enchanting, +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring Intelligence or Charisma, -1 attribute bonus for crafts other than Enchanting.
Herbalism, +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring Constitution or Wisdom, -1 attribute bonus for crafts other than Herbalism.
Gilding, +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring Constitution or Intelligence, -1 attribute bonus for crafts other than Gilding, Smithing and Smelting.
Leatherworking, +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring Dexterity or Wisdom, -1 attribute bonus for crafts other than Leatherworking, Leather Boiling and Hide Curing.
Smithing, +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring Strength or Dexterity, -1 attribute bonus for crafts other than Smithing, Gilding, and Smelting.
Tailoring, +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring Dexterity or Charisma, -1 attribute bonus for crafts other than Tailoring and Weaving.
Woodworking, +2 attribute bonus to crafting rolls requiring Dexterity or Wisdom, -1 attribute bonus for crafts other than Woodworking and Carpentry.
Quote
Feat: Strange Mood
Requirements: Dwarf
Description: Withdrawing from society, the dwarf may feel a calling within their soul to pursue the creation of a great masterwork. Described as feyish or secretive, those struck with this peculiar affliction are compelled by the toiling nature within their blood to seek out workshops, fashioning craftsdwarfship of the highest quality. Every day a random crafting material and template will receive a +10 bonus to crafting rolls when used together, with a further +5 bonus to gilding items of matching material or template. The material and template for each day is known intuitively by any dwarf with this feat.

MAB77

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2022, 10:59:48 PM »
The problem I see with these feats is that they merely serve to help mastering a craft faster. While a valid idea on its own, we already acted to reduce the grind significantly recently and thus made mastering a craft much faster than it used to be. While I am thoroughly in favor of reducing the grind further, to increase CXP and to lower the amount of components required to level up in a craft, it is imperative that it also come with a drawback to limit the speed of progression. Balance is the key here. Not to mention the fact those are the kind of feat that would invariably be removed with impunity during a remake/relevel after they outlived their usefulness.
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KovosDatch

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2022, 11:10:55 PM »
Quote
Feat: Strange Mood
Requirements: Dwarf
Description: Withdrawing from society, the dwarf may feel a calling within their soul to pursue the creation of a great masterwork. Described as feyish or secretive, those struck with this peculiar affliction are compelled by the toiling nature within their blood to seek out workshops, fashioning craftsdwarfship of the highest quality. Every day a random crafting material and template will receive a +10 bonus to crafting rolls when used together, with a further +5 bonus to gilding items of matching material or template. The material and template for each day is known intuitively by any dwarf with this feat.

I appreciate the Dwarf Fortress references.

===
Here is my two cents on the whole matter:

I do not believe feats are the way to go about this.

I would rather pick a craft as my trained/given profession similarly to the different background choices in the POTM lobby when spawning in a new character. Picking a craft line (like leatherworking covers boiling and curing) would instantly jump the level of those crafts up by a few levels. Either that or make background picks that add crafting profession bonuses instead of skill bonuses.

Then a person wouldn't have to sacrifice feats for feat-starved classes. Sure you may miss out on 4-6 skill points if backgrounds are added for crafting, but that isn't going to make a build completely nonviable.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 11:13:18 PM by KovosDatch »

EarlofEtheria

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2022, 11:38:36 PM »
While I am thoroughly in favor of reducing the grind further, to increase CXP and to lower the amount of components required to level up in a craft, it is imperative that it also come with a drawback to limit the speed of progression. Balance is the key here.

Tricky when the factors which limit crafting are typically supply, distance, sometimes gold. Beyond great upheavals these limiting factors are (sometimes literally) set in stone.

Smithing and its company are probably the most egregious in how high levels can collect super quickly while a rookie has just one low damage pick swing against the vein. Strength also scales carry weight exponentially, lbs is the second big factor for smiths (22 str against 17-19 is a big deal) and higher levels have an advantage here too. Woodworking shares the same conundrum, where high BAB classes massacre trees and leave a region barren, going from 0 to mastery in a pinch (comparatively).

I don't see lowering attack damage, carry weight or travel speed being acceptable trade-offs for a character, so... is there way to make things easier but with drawbacks to collection speed? Upturning all the whack-whack gathering? Iron runs away from Barovia if chased by certain characters with particular investments? Would that make someone upset that they're ruining the ore spawns and griefing them?

Alchemy has natural limits through dungeon timers, and especially distance or season like Herbalism. Maybe an over-kill drawback where you're just too dang eager to collect them plants you tear some up, unusable? Collect less, but with some XP boost? I feel like such a drawback would be overtly uninvited and complicated for alchemy ingredients however (given how they are typically found by the party, but this extends to herbalism and the party's travel too).

Maybe some sort of mist traveling material collecting minigame, relatively random but reliable to a point where you can earn crafting/gathering traits?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 11:45:12 PM by EarlofEtheria »

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2022, 01:05:41 AM »
The problem I see with these feats is that they merely serve to help mastering a craft faster. While a valid idea on its own, we already acted to reduce the grind significantly recently and thus made mastering a craft much faster than it used to be. While I am thoroughly in favor of reducing the grind further, to increase CXP and to lower the amount of components required to level up in a craft, it is imperative that it also come with a drawback to limit the speed of progression. Balance is the key here. Not to mention the fact those are the kind of feat that would invariably be removed with impunity during a remake/relevel after they outlived their usefulness.

If the conversation of making it somehow quicker has a drawback, then I'd be inclined to just stick a pin in it where it is now, and call it done. This server demands way too much investment and time from its players, as it is, making it near-impossible to casually enjoy in any meaningful manner.

Anastian

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2022, 02:00:12 AM »
I still think, after seeing this discussion, that the crafting system should be kept as a stand alone progression as opposed to the normal character progression (i.e., xp based levels). Again crafting is fun if you like exploring the world and figuring out components. If you want to master it it should be difficult. I'd just bring back a few more cxp levels where needed on case, but still feel like the problem of having too many master crafters is not really a problem. We have too many master smiths, but how many woodworkers and leatherworkers do we have? I know of very few
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MAB77

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2022, 02:03:24 AM »
If the conversation of making it somehow quicker has a drawback, then I'd be inclined to just stick a pin in it where it is now, and call it done. This server demands way too much investment and time from its players, as it is, making it near-impossible to casually enjoy in any meaningful manner.

See that's exactly it!

Increased CXP with a soft or even hard cap actually would be of tremendous help to casual players. Let say you are limited to earn 10 crafting levels a week (5 for support crafts, 5 for main crafts, a bit more at lower level to quickly reach a point were you can sell decent wares), but can earn them with a mere 30 minutes of work per week. You don't need to gather as much material, just got a hell lot of more time to dungeon and roleplay, and it still satisfies the time investment condition as it will take you 15 weeks to master a main craft without too much grinding.

Mind you, we're not heading that way. This proposal was already rejected twice. I don,t expect a different result. It very much look like we're heading toward status quo.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 02:14:41 AM by MAB77 »
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2022, 02:51:05 AM »
The reason I originally said no to the idea personally was because a daily cap just reminds me of MMOs even more than perma grinding at all hours. The actual details, we never really got to. I can't speak for others but years have passed now so I hope you don't mind revisiting the discussion.

For example, the amount of progress that could be made in this system wasn't really discussed. 5 levels of a main craft would be an insane amount of progress on its own (at later levels of course), and I don't think anyone here can reasonably claim that after the beginner levels are out of the way, they've ever gotten 5 in a week more than once, unless they're playing a high level wrecking low level dungeons, or just buying an insane amount of material. Maybe one or two crafts stand out though.

This is a very different pitch to what we got before. Just 5 levels in a week for only 30 minutes of work sounds too good to be true, and I think a lot of people would understand if the cap kicked in quicker than that or if it was really more like an hour or more of work every week.

The best of both worlds would probably involve a soft cap over a hard cap, keeping it based on a weekly timer, and making it fairly lax for the beginner levels like you said. Most people would really not mind two months of effort leading to them having a +35 roll on their crafting.

This would actually satisfy the concerns we (or at least I) had previously over the idea of changing the cap to this. My main complaint with the crafting system on this server has always been the amount of time spent clicking at the crafting table. This reduces that but keeps everything else in place, which is honestly completely fine. The actual group efforts that go into getting the materials, the RP and legacy surrounding the equipment that people put to use especially in the later levels, all that stuff is fantastic. I feel that would be protected by your weekly cap system.

One potential issue to consider would be that people will absolutely still grind massive amounts of materials to bank away for an XP grind later, but I don't know if you would consider that to be an issue or not. I think a lot of us, even non-crafters bank a lot of raw materials anyway to be made into stuff later, one reason I tend to do that is to throw it at a lower level crafter that needs the XP.
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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2022, 04:13:54 AM »
I honestly think "Too much master crafters" is an imagined problem.

I can't even think of a time i've went "Wow, there sure are too many craftsmen that can make my adamantine gear for me"

Locking a craft's mastery behind feats also seems like an unnecessary change to me, people have spent days of their real lives trying to master crafts, only to suddenly no longer be able to do said craft as they once could unless they rebuild their character and making them useless for anything other than crafting. I'm sure this could generate a lot of RP, but it is honestly unnecessary. The end result of this would simply be that crafting mastery would only be possible by those sacrificing their build so they could do that and would result in a lot less craftsmen around that could make your end-game items, where there already aren't that many around.

Personally, i enjoy the grind that comes with it currently. The change of the cap to lv50 a while ago, in my opinion, already reduced the "grind" by more than enough. I would be against any more buffs to "reduce the grind" simply because it's -supposed- to take time and effort to master anything, let alone a craft.
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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2022, 04:23:40 AM »
Some of us are already struggling to keep up with the requirements of craft grinding.
(I have been buying tailoring materials at the outskirts for the past 2-3 weeks since I cannot gather them myself, and while my weaving is level 3, my tailoring is still level 1. I must've spent at least 10k+ buying things. How slow tailoring is is a discussion for another time.. but..)

I do not wish to also have to grind for levels to pick up feats for crafting or for it to turn into having to grind for levels only. For RP only characters, who have slow level progression and so on, crafting is a huge help. It gives us something to do, earn coin even though we do not dungeon, contribute in our own way. Please do not gate it behind mechanical levels. My peasant shouldn't be a level 15+ demi-god to sew high quality clothes.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 09:30:23 AM by Barovian Female Peasant 2.0 »

ZSRunner

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2022, 09:39:31 AM »
Some of us are already struggling to keep up with the requirements of craft grinding.
(I have been buying tailoring materials at the outskirts for the past 2-3 weeks since I cannot gather them myself, and while my weaving is level 3, my tailoring is still level 1. I must've spent at least 10k+ buying things. How slow tailoring is is a discussion for another time.. but..)

I do not wish to also have to grind for levels to pick up feats for crafting or for it to turn into having to grind for levels only. For RP only characters, who have slow level progression and so on, crafting is a huge help. It gives us something to do, earn coin even though we do not dungeon, contribute in our own way. Please do not gate it behind mechanical levels. My peasant shouldn't be a level 15+ demi-god to sew high quality clothes.

Tailoring suffers from this more than many other forms of crafting, at least in my observation.

This is why I suggest gating mastery behind actual character levels. It achieves what MAB seems to be after which is to slow down the progression of craft mastery while still allowing characters the option to pursue any craft they like. Additionally, it doesn't require any extranious investment in feats for those classes that are already somewhat starved for feats.

Another suggestion would be to introduce an actual Skill where players could invest in crafting. Make it a broad skill that affects all crafts and, similar to other skills, allow for break points where enough skillpoints invested allows for higher levels of mastery.

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2022, 10:09:41 AM »
If the conversation of making it somehow quicker has a drawback, then I'd be inclined to just stick a pin in it where it is now, and call it done. This server demands way too much investment and time from its players, as it is, making it near-impossible to casually enjoy in any meaningful manner.

See that's exactly it!

Increased CXP with a soft or even hard cap actually would be of tremendous help to casual players. Let say you are limited to earn 10 crafting levels a week (5 for support crafts, 5 for main crafts, a bit more at lower level to quickly reach a point were you can sell decent wares), but can earn them with a mere 30 minutes of work per week. You don't need to gather as much material, just got a hell lot of more time to dungeon and roleplay, and it still satisfies the time investment condition as it will take you 15 weeks to master a main craft without too much grinding.

Mind you, we're not heading that way. This proposal was already rejected twice. I don,t expect a different result. It very much look like we're heading toward status quo.


I mean. Let me be clear; I might sound a bit cantankerous or surly when it comes to these things, but I'm not ignorant to the intentions of it. I just don't see why we're terribly concerned over the number of craftsmen on the server at the end of the day. It seems a bit arbitrary, and in effect, a bit silly to try to artificially complicate or simplify the process to satisfy a percentage number of craftsmen/master craftsmen active. Mostly because, ideally, everyone would be involved in some craft, to some degree on the server.

While that's certainly not the case in reality, it's a possibility, and the server itself has gone through trends of crafting popularity and downfall, and -- Admittedly -- Every time you add new items, add new recipes, add new updates to the crafting system, you're inadvertently stoking the fires of interest to grind out crafting and exacerbating your own problem. Part of the reason there are so many craftsmen now, and so many master craftsmen, is because the crafting system now caters to a much larger audience and has becoming an increasingly important part of the server. It used to just be a way to get silver weapons, when was first implemented, and back then they weren't even as good. Now it's a critical part of the process for every character to get a craftsmen on speed-dial, to get armor and weapons made of rare material and enchanted. It plays the part of a massive economic incentive for people to learn it, to make money, to fund their own characters, interests, and ambitions on a level that now, with the inclusion of so many valuable crafting materials outside of Adamantine, can compete with regularity and profit with hardcore ninjalooters. Not to mention, the starry-eyed dream of every craftsman to aggressively engage in economic warfare to undermine other craftsmen until they get tired, quit, and then jack the prices up because the player economy is live. Which is probably one of the better aspects of PoTM.

Tailoring, Leatherworking, Herbalism, and Smithing have more things to make, do, sell, and want now than they ever have before, inspiring more people to make more characters with more mercantile goals. While someone can have a lower-level character who, within a month or two can achieve a relatively high level in a craft, I do not in earnest believe artificial caps are going to do anything healthy for the server. This is a game, in the end, we're all here to have fun. There really doesn't need to be some arbitrary equalizer in time to keep people from playing the game as much as they have fun, or as less as they have fun. Reducing the gameplay/goals side of the coin to be reduced to force you to cap out not only your dungeon XP, but crafting XP, kills the game side of things, stunts interest and potential, and is ultimately an unrewarding experience.

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Re: Crafting Feat Idea
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2022, 10:18:35 AM »
Tailoring suffers from this more than many other forms of crafting, at least in my observation.

This is why I suggest gating mastery behind actual character levels. It achieves what MAB seems to be after which is to slow down the progression of craft mastery while still allowing characters the option to pursue any craft they like. Additionally, it doesn't require any extranious investment in feats for those classes that are already somewhat starved for feats.

Another suggestion would be to introduce an actual Skill where players could invest in crafting. Make it a broad skill that affects all crafts and, similar to other skills, allow for break points where enough skillpoints invested allows for higher levels of mastery.

It also forces people to having to go get EXP and dungeon and level up all the time just so they can play a merchant. I understand your reasoning behind this, but I find it'll just ruin the best thing about POTM crafting system, which is that it doesn't limit you based on your level or feats, but rewards you based on your character actually spending the time to learn a craft.

MAB and the community frankly seems to be on two different sides here, while one side believes there are too many crafters, the other side says there cannot be 'too many crafters' and I agree. If any feats are going to be added, they should make crafting easier for those who wish to take them by changing up their build, but the system should stay the same, not become more gatekept. We already have the requirement of being rich for it, and for some crafts, going to high level dungeons. It doesn't make sense that being high level enough to kill demons and devils in Perfidus would be a requirement to be a master blacksmith, or a herbalist, or a tailor. I hope I am able to convey my thoughts properly.