Author Topic: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns  (Read 2097 times)

RedMoney

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2022, 11:27:41 AM »
Ah yes, If this is my goal why do I not play on the “Action” Server? Well in truth, It's a Boring Lifeless world without the player Population. It's About Scenery you all make such a nice world to interact with I simply can not play on the Action Server.

Well there's the catch.  If everyone says this then no one will do it, and they'll just continue to sit around afk when all the dungeons are on cooldown.  I think there is an assumption I meant people abandon one server for the other and that's simply not the case.  If you find yourself bored with nothing to do, trying the action server for awhile then coming back over to the main later will at least alleviate that aspect.

I watched half a dozen people standing in the outskirts at night last night idle semi afk and not so much as attempt to engage in RP with one another or even emote how bored they were.  What is the point wasting time being logged in but not playing when you -could- be playing content on the other server?  If a person is logged into the client but actively on the forums or discord complaining about how the server is unfair to people who have RP builds or time constraints, wouldn't it be more productive to actually perform an action that leads to a result? 

The Action server could also be repurposed as a secondary RP server so that people that enjoy playing multiple characters can do so without concerns of story crossing.  Doing this would allow people to try out different things that they simply cannot accomplish now based on story crossing and faction limitations.

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2022, 11:57:08 AM »
I feel like there needs to be a system to punish groups of people from pillaging every easy go-to dungeon within 5 minutes of the mist camp. Of course, I don't seriously mean that, but it is an annoying issue of what the average high level player conversation is:

"Okay. We've done Cursts. What's next?"
"church"
"Okay. We've done the church. What's next?"
"thoth?"
"Not there, some people just did it."
And so on and so on for the shipwreck, aboleth, perfidus, salt shadows, and what have you dungeons all over the place.

Often I see players just doing a checklist over what content is available for them to raid like this. Making it so just a small number of active mist camp characters are the ones eating up all the good spots and leaving scraps for everybody else.

Players who are not playing the game 12+ hours a day every day should have a better chance at the best dungeon spawns too. Increase the spawn rate maybe, but leave the anti-farming measures the same for those targeting a dungeon too many times in a period.

Oh, you think the MC groups farming high level content is bad? I spent the last week playing a new character in Barovia with some friends. What I see most is high levels casually strolling through every single dungeon there.

But back on topic: I believe that the system could be tweaked to be faster, but I also believe that there may be a middle ground. Allow the timer to be fast if no player of the party entered that dungeon in the last eight hour for instance.
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Sir Dally

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2022, 12:20:13 PM »

To this I would ask, why not start everyone out at lvl 20 with a full set of whatever gear they chose? The mechanical power matters quite a bit. Time invested in RP building influence is negated in many ways, by that mechanical power.

I see a lot of merit to your argument. Don't get me wrong. I just don't agree that levelling the playing field in the way you suggest will yield the results you think it will.

My Point is Exactly that.... If people are so Irritated at the Mechanical Advantages, (I will concede the only mechanical advantage is "influence") That they wish to Villainize and witch hunt those that bring these advantages to bear, why not do as you mentioned.?

For me I prefer the grind, it gives me the little dopamine hits and I like it. and that is the only reason to have a "False" progression IMO. To allow some to have those little doses of dopamine. Just as overcoming the Teams Countless changes in dungeons or Barra's Ganks.

To the last point about these advantages mattering... RP negates most of those... You can position your toon to be in good graces or under protection if threatened by mechanical "Force Influences" You can Wheel and Deal your way out of any "Monetary Influences"

With XP and Coin Advantage Properly dealt with it only leaves "Item Influence/RP Influences" Coin can buy these- but ill be honest. Not really as the player base who holds these advantages are immune to "Monetary Influence" only RP influence, or OOC influence will force that hand... if you can not "Force them by conflict".

To that end lets talk about RP Influences with the Above taken into account. And Some people wonder why Items, And Conflict are what drives the Endgame?  Facts remain that's all you can do at that level of RP play. Amass Ally's, Control Recourses, increase standing and try to hold out till someone wants what you have? or complete your RP goal?

Now I will Admit, I am not so well versed in such things. But to this end d’Aubry Comment:
Quote from:
Influence will beat pvp power everytime. You overestimate the amount of PvP that happens on the server. Everyone prepares for it, but there is very little of it because of how easy it is to raise someone who was killed. You will go much further with influencing events than simply PvPing people.


Is another Prime Example from a better source. While placing people on a 6 month timer is certainty a way to get something you want perhaps short term. If someone is RP loved (Or has Influence) and looked for, the Mechanical Assassination of a player is pointless unless handled well. Well provided you don't Corpse hide in nefarious locations or hand the corpse off... Funny how those rules where changed in the passed year or so...

Regardless, I hope this Provides some insight as to my thinking on the Weight of Mechanical Influences being negated through RP. However these are just my Musings or how I would handle it if I wasn't so busy playing in the sandbox and my little whiteboard.

Oh I'm paddling on, The short version is Rare Items are the only Influence gained or Lost to OP's Argument. And again I support the Lost Influence of Items in the RP space.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 12:24:21 PM by Sir Dally »
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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2022, 12:26:31 PM »
Quote
Induced demand is a catch-all term used for a variety of interconnected effects that cause new roads to quickly fill to capacity. In rapidly growing areas where roads were not designed for the current population, there may be significant latent demand for new road capacity, which causes a flood of new drivers to immediately take to the freeway once the new lanes are open, quickly congesting them again.

Ripping out Dyanmic Populations isn't something that's going to happen. It's too embedded. We just have to work with the paradigm we're in, which is this.

Our preferred approach is to keep adding capacity. Player numbers have never been higher, and so is the number of places to go. I prefer to make new things over refreshing old content, but I have done some pretty substantial rounds of bringing older content up to modern standards of risk-reward-time.

Perhaps one day we will have enough content to go around, but I doubt it. At least until we nuke the post 14 enchanting loop into the ground, which is after all the real villain here.

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2022, 12:34:22 PM »

Quote
Induced demand is a catch-all term used for a variety of interconnected effects that cause new roads to quickly fill to capacity. In rapidly growing areas where roads were not designed for the current population, there may be significant latent demand for new road capacity, which causes a flood of new drivers to immediately take to the freeway once the new lanes are open, quickly congesting them again.

Ripping out Dynamic Populations isn't something that's going to happen. It's too embedded. We just have to work with the paradigm we're in, which is this.

Our preferred approach is to keep adding capacity. Player numbers have never been higher, and so is the number of places to go. I prefer to make new things over refreshing old content, but I have done some pretty substantial rounds of bringing older content up to modern standards of risk-reward-time.

Perhaps one day we will have enough content to go around, but I doubt it. At least until we nuke the post 14 enchanting loop into the ground, which is after all the real villain here.
Reduced demand, not increased supply is the only sustainable solution.

btw 4 new dungeons coming soon
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 12:39:13 PM by CosmicRay »

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2022, 01:26:05 PM »
At least until we nuke the post 14 enchanting loop into the ground, which is after all the real villain here.

I'm glad that this seems to be on the radar at least for some of the Dev team and I 100% agree.  I realize this is off topic for the thread but I'm going to ask anyway.

Has there ever been any consideration into redoing the enchanting system?  I often feel like nerfing the overall gear and lowering the level requirement would be an interesting idea.  It would be interesting if enchanting was more of a mid level power boost and then you can go out to your dungeons and maybe when you find a neat item you will actually use it instead of sell it to lowbies for exorbitant prices because your enchanted gear is better. 



ChrisRanHimselfOver

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2022, 01:27:31 PM »
At least until we nuke the post 14 enchanting loop into the ground, which is after all the real villain here.

I'm glad that this seems to be on the radar at least for some of the Dev team and I 100% agree.  I realize this is off topic for the thread but I'm going to ask anyway.

Has there ever been any consideration into redoing the enchanting system?  I often feel like nerfing the overall gear and lowering the level requirement would be an interesting idea.  It would be interesting if enchanting was more of a mid level power boost and then you can go out to your dungeons and maybe when you find a neat item you will actually use it instead of sell it to lowbies for exorbitant prices because your enchanted gear is better.

Funnily enough, that was another thing I was considering making a post about. Nerfing crafted gear and doing away with enchanting.

But we should stay on topic.
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William Roberts

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2022, 01:30:28 PM »
Those posts by Sir Dally and Cosmic Ray are spot on (albeit I'm flummoxed as to where Benjamin Schneider contributed to this discussion and could thus be quoted).


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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2022, 01:38:13 PM »
Ripping out Dyanmic Populations isn't something that's going to happen. It's too embedded. We just have to work with the paradigm we're in, which is this.

Our preferred approach is to keep adding capacity. Player numbers have never been higher, and so is the number of places to go. I prefer to make new things over refreshing old content, but I have done some pretty substantial rounds of bringing older content up to modern standards of risk-reward-time.

Perhaps one day we will have enough content to go around, but I doubt it. At least until we nuke the post 14 enchanting loop into the ground, which is after all the real villain here.

Thank you for this response and for the changes you have made. I haven't seen them all yet but it is nice to know this is on your radar. While I'd rather see more variations on the same level of max spawn, I guess we can't just expect spawn levels to disappear.

The main reason I suggest this isn't a supply-demand issue, rather a "keeping things fresh" issue. You'll never really be able to create "enough content" which is impossible to define - some people have unlimited amounts of time to farm these dungeons. As annoying as it is to find dungeon after dungeon empty, I agree with others who have stated that if you look hard enough you will eventually find one.

With all that said, I think it would be pretty special to go into a dungeon and not know where the enemies are going to spawn, from where they'll patrol, what their exact composition/class balance will be (today there's more casters, tomorrow more melees, etc). I think this would go further than the spawn level to address concerns. If you are intent on controlling respawn time, I feel like it wouldn't be a disaster if most dungeons literally just didn't respawn until 4-8 hours have passed, since lower spawns are usually avoided anyway and many dungeons take about as long to get back up there. Maybe the simplest solution would be to implement a variations system for the max spawn level.

I wonder what's in the cards for the "victory lap levels" and the enchanting loop, but I think I'll wait patiently to hear more this time instead of derailing like I usually do.
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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2022, 01:48:01 PM »
f you are intent on controlling respawn time, I feel like it wouldn't be a disaster if most dungeons literally just didn't respawn until 4-8 hours have passed, since lower spawns are usually avoided anyway and many dungeons take about as long to get back up there. Maybe the simplest solution would be to implement a variations system for the max spawn level.

Setting timers to 4-8 hours for respawn would find the server quickly empty of any content to do. I quite prefer a lower spawn to nothing at all. I will happily run low spawns if its level appropriate, either for me, or the party I'm travelling with.

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2022, 01:50:24 PM »
Numbers can be reworked or even made dynamic, the exact hour figures are unimportant, just based on the existing timeline. Low and medium spawns could be preserved for those who don't mind, with variations added to the maximum spawn level only.
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Zyemeth

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2022, 01:52:09 PM »
More randomly varied spawnings is a great idea that I've always liked the thought of. Where groups actually spawn and their composition could be a lot of replayable fun. I also think that randomized cave spawn times should be much higher. It seems that the majority of the time the various caves are just empty so much that I hardly bother checking them anymore. But on those rare occasions you get something interesting it really is a breath of fresh air. Even if the inhabitants aren't always interesting, just making sure there ARE inhabitants at least more often could spice things up.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 01:54:32 PM by Zyemeth »

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2022, 02:41:28 PM »
Ripping out Dyanmic Populations isn't something that's going to happen. It's too embedded. We just have to work with the paradigm we're in, which is this.

If you can't rip it out, retire it. Set all spawns to the values for max spawn, don't give the script the option of choosing different monsters.
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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2022, 03:00:23 PM »
Ripping out Dyanmic Populations isn't something that's going to happen. It's too embedded. We just have to work with the paradigm we're in, which is this.

If you can't rip it out, retire it. Set all spawns to the values for max spawn, don't give the script the option of choosing different monsters.

Still no. Saying what you want again, harder, doesn't make it more possible or more likely.

apeppertoo

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2022, 03:31:58 PM »
So is the answer "we can't" or "we won't?"

I'm glad new dungeons are being designed but it doesn't really solve the problem and you're never going to keep up with player appetites that way. Professional MMO designers have learned that the hard way, which explains the emphasis on repeatable content in that design space lately.

Further, depending on where these dungeons are put in, there's RP considerations that also make this not a good solution. For example, much of the current crop of PaL characters have to dungeon with one another because that's who they know - it's the smaller RP hub. That means Gendarmes are often part of these groups. Gendarmes cannot leave Dementlieu, which limits our options greatly. Despite OOC contrivances to help organize schedules we will often be left with no viable options beyond slumming in content well below level, which means despite successfully creating a roster there's nowhere to go and we waste our time.

This has happened more times than I can count the last few months.
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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2022, 03:41:11 PM »
The players who joined the Gendarme were likely well aware of the restrictions when they decided to join. If they weren't and desperately want to dungeon that badly, they can simply leave the faction.

Port characters otherwise can simply go to the mist camp like everyone else when they wish to dungeon.

Let's not forget as well that just because max spawn is great, that the lower spawns aren't useful as well. Lower level players will run those medium spawns for a good chunk of xp and decent items.


apeppertoo

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2022, 03:47:43 PM »
The players who joined the Gendarme were likely well aware of the restrictions when they decided to join. If they weren't and desperately want to dungeon that badly, they can simply leave the faction.

Port characters otherwise can simply go to the mist camp like everyone else when they wish to dungeon.

I'm not complaining on behalf of Gendarme players. I'm showing how many of the players of an entire hub are restricted by their RP to only go to Dementlieuse dungeons even if they're not in the faction themselves, and that the variable spawn system's negative externalities hit especially hard among the players of this hub.

Lower spawns are functionally useless. I've not experienced, nor even heard of, a group of underleveled people hitting a dungeon specifically because it was low spawn. Can it happen? Yes. Has it? Probably. Is this tiny positive enough to outweigh the other, more likely consequence, that a group has no content to do? No.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 03:49:33 PM by apeppertoo »
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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2022, 04:03:05 PM »
That restriction is made by the players, there's nothing saying you can't simply leave to dungeon elsewhere once you've done what you could in Port.

Lower spawns really aren't useless, I've had many great runs of lower spawns in dungeons and have gotten some pretty good items myself by running them.
Likewise, many of my friends run medium spawn dungeons as well when it's level appropriate. Max spawn may be the best time to go and do things yes, but that doesn't detract from the lower spawns usefulness. Quite a good few handfuls of times I've encountered situations where we do the dungeon at lower than max spawn because someone perhaps doesn't have enough time to wait for it to gain strength back to max. Even relatively on level medium spawns still give pretty good XP.

Dungeon spawn times have already been tweaked to be faster in the past as well I believe, and I think that dungeons and their spawn rates are in a good place.

More dungeons are coming anyways, as stated further back in the thread, so one dungeon not being max spawn sort of keeps getting pushed further from relevancy as you can simply go elsewhere to get your pull of the xp lever.


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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2022, 04:10:37 PM »
Lower spawns are functionally useless. I've not experienced, nor even heard of, a group of underleveled people hitting a dungeon specifically because it was low spawn. Can it happen? Yes. Has it? Probably. Is this tiny positive enough to outweigh the other, more likely consequence, that a group has no content to do? No.

I have frequently been in groups that have left max spawn dungeons simply because they were too powerful to complete. So to say that lower spawn dungeons are functionally useless is inaccurate. Variable spawn dungeons effectively allow for a wider range of PC's to explore the same content without the overwhelming risk involved in facing a max spawn.

In making every dungeon max spawn you'll greatly restrict the content that a given pc might be able to enjoy at any given time simply because they won't be able to complete it with any degree of success unless the spawn is lower.

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2022, 04:37:09 PM »
Ripping out Dyanmic Populations isn't something that's going to happen. It's too embedded. We just have to work with the paradigm we're in, which is this.

If you can't rip it out, retire it. Set all spawns to the values for max spawn, don't give the script the option of choosing different monsters.

Still no. Saying what you want again, harder, doesn't make it more possible or more likely.

We don't obviously know the inner workings here for us non-potm developers, but I find it hard to believe that whatever the current values are for dungeon-spawning cannot be edited to at least "fill" a dungeon faster?

Lower spawns are functionally useless. I've not experienced, nor even heard of, a group of underleveled people hitting a dungeon specifically because it was low spawn. Can it happen? Yes. Has it? Probably. Is this tiny positive enough to outweigh the other, more likely consequence, that a group has no content to do? No.

I have frequently been in groups that have left max spawn dungeons simply because they were too powerful to complete. So to say that lower spawn dungeons are functionally useless is inaccurate. Variable spawn dungeons effectively allow for a wider range of PC's to explore the same content without the overwhelming risk involved in facing a max spawn.

In making every dungeon max spawn you'll greatly restrict the content that a given pc might be able to enjoy at any given time simply because they won't be able to complete it with any degree of success unless the spawn is lower.

I'd say the solution could be just raise the bar on spawns. Instead of the current barebones minimum standard we have now. Make it so the new "minimum" is actually the current "medium" or medium-high or something actually encouraging. Running into and experiencing the minimum spawns too often is what's driving the problem being brought up here.

Then reserve the actual barebones spawns for those striking a certain dungeon too many times in one or two days.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 04:54:20 PM by Cody »

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2022, 05:09:37 PM »
So is the answer "we can't" or "we won't?"

We won't. Also, dungeon respawning rates are already dynamic and tied to player population, so more players, faster respawns.

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2022, 08:10:45 PM »
Lower spawns are functionally useless. I've not experienced, nor even heard of, a group of underleveled people hitting a dungeon specifically because it was low spawn. Can it happen? Yes. Has it? Probably. Is this tiny positive enough to outweigh the other, more likely consequence, that a group has no content to do? No.

I have frequently been in groups that have left max spawn dungeons simply because they were too powerful to complete. So to say that lower spawn dungeons are functionally useless is inaccurate. Variable spawn dungeons effectively allow for a wider range of PC's to explore the same content without the overwhelming risk involved in facing a max spawn.

In making every dungeon max spawn you'll greatly restrict the content that a given pc might be able to enjoy at any given time simply because they won't be able to complete it with any degree of success unless the spawn is lower.

It's actually completely accurate. Your groups attempted something beyond their skill level and were properly deterred. If variable spawns did not exist your groups could reliably instead tackle something more appropriate to their skill, power, and level of preparation instead of being forced to reach beyond that in the hope that the spawn isn't strong.

In making every dungeon max spawn you'll reduce the band of possible destinations, yes, but level appropriate destinations will always be worth going to - as opposed to now, when there's a good shot there's nothing worth doing.
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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2022, 08:45:08 PM »
Lower spawns are functionally useless.

I should have been more clear. This part of the statement is incorrect.

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2022, 05:17:19 AM »
I dont know.

Organize an expedition. Manage to rack 3+ more people. travel to location. ward use consumables, get in. Try two rooms. Nope! A little stronger than i like it! Go away.

Never ever seen it happen since i started playing.

I have never met anyone that was happy, just to mention this, not to find the golems in Anubis or the Ice Queen in the Ice Castle.


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William Roberts

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Re: Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2022, 09:02:23 AM »
Some players may like complete predictability in a game, but it certainly reduces the feel of realism (and makes the game easier) always to have the exact same thing happen. Randomness is a design element to be used for making something more challenging and less utterly grindy.

It is disappointing not to have a particular creature spawn and thus a particular wanted item fail to drop, but if it always happened, then it would not be a very exciting achievement either.



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