Some Suggestions Regarding Dungeon Spawns

[ChrisRanHimselfOver]

Every now and then I get the itch to make suggestions regarding ways to improve on the module. I'm afraid today is one of those days and I've set my sights on the dungeon spawn system. Which means now I will be explaining how it works from my observations, some systems related to what I'd like to address and my proposed solutions. I hope typing this out will scratch that itch because I've had many ideas lately and I'm a slave to my obsession with making arguments regarding how to make things better. But I do really think this will make things better so thank you for bearing with me.

A Brief Introduction to the Dungeon Spawn System

As things are now, dungeons have a spawn range that they ramp up given time without being cleared. This serves a few purposes, it can open up a dungeon to a wider variety of levels, it serves a role play function in that players can see that hitting the dungeon had an effect as enemies within the dungeon take time to recover, and it prevents players from repeatedly hitting the same dungeon. But it has a large downside, players with little time can find that the time they had set aside to dungeon won't be able to be spent doing so if level-appropriate dungeons aren't available. This has a hand in players with little time feeling as though they can't possibly keep up with players that have more time on their hands in either xp or item value. And this can generate some resentment between players. At first glance, this might seem a reasonable trade-off, the system performs three functions with a singular downside. Unfortunately, I'd argue that currently these functions are either not utilized, unnecessary or actually goes against some of what we observe to be goals in the design of the server.

Why Farming a Single Dungeon Doesn't Work

First, I would like to address the most obvious point of the system, to keep players from farming a single dungeon for loot and xp. While the spawn system would be quite effective at this, we have two other systems in place to address this, those being the loot system and the xp cap system. The loot system prevents a character from looting the same location more than once without letting other players have a chance at it, this affects both ninjalooters and dungeon runners. The xp cap system prevents players from grinding out levels too quickly by first reducing then stopping xp gain from quests, dm experience and combat. These systems alone can cover much of what the dungeon spawn system does to prevent players from farming the same location repeatedly.

The Role Play Dysfunction

The role play function is, unfortunately, a casualty of the previous server philosophy regarding repeated dungeon visits. As dungeon spawns are generally only tied to the dungeon, players would have to re-enter the dungeon after it reset in order to see what effect they had. Since this behavior is not something we wish to promote, this function of the dungeon spawn system effectively goes against the server's design philosophy and should largely be ignored as the only role play this often generates is the occasional meeting of two groups with Group A going to a dungeon and Group B returning from that very same dungeon. Usually this ends either with Groups A and B returning to the nearest relevant hub or Group A having to go to a completely different dungeon than previously planned.

Does This Mean Low Levels can fight Reavers?

Finally, the level range function. This function is largely unutilized. Appropriate dungeon levels are typically judged based on the maximum spawn of a dungeon and it can be observed that players often make the choice to leave a dungeon if the spawn is sufficiently low. This is largely due to the large level range between the maximum spawn and the minimum spawn. But lower level players don't generally visit dungeons with a max spawn level too much higher than their own level making these extremely low dips in the dungeon spawn essentially a content lock as players will simply ignore these locations until they've suitably recovered, and this can sometimes take quite a while with some dungeons seemingly taking 24 hours or more to reset fully to max spawn.

We Can Make It Better

My personal belief is that the server is at a point where we would be best served by having the spawns always be set to max after a dungeon resets. This would be the option that respects the players' time the most and because of the loot and xp cap systems, the server is prepared in case players do decide to try farming a location.

Spawn timers could also simply be sped up so it takes much less time to go through the different spawn stages. This would perform much the same as simply making it so dungeons were always at max but to a lesser degree.

For a vastly different option, the dungeon spawn range can be tightened significantly so players at a level appropriate for the maximum spawn of a dungeon can still get rewarded for tackling it at its lowest spawn. This would have the added benefit of working with the sped up spawn timers.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I agree with all you've written here. I don't know all that much about the ninjalooting side, but it's certainly true that farming the same dungeon for XP is pointless, given 2-3 dungeons in just 1 week can put you at or near max cap.

I've always preferred the variable spawn system to the spawn building system. In practice, it's fun to go into a cave in Vallaki and have no idea what's going to be in there. The problem is that some of the spawns aren't as interesting or well-curated and feel generic since they've been left as creatures from the default game for 10+ years.

So with that said, I would rather see the packs of enemies shuffled within the same theme at the very least, to provide a challenge that can't be predicted as easily. Different varieties of enemy composition, as well as alternate spawn positions and patrol routes, but always the same "spawn level" or strength.

[cooachlyfe]

+1 agree. And yes, this has caused much ooc resentment between players because it is annoying to log on and find out everything worth doing has been cleared out.

I am with the suggestions of either lowing respawn time for dungeons or having dungeons only respawn at max spawn.

(I am mostly speaking about high-level dungeons as opposed to dungeons near Vallaki)

[zDark Shadowz]

I disagree, for many reasons in terms of game balance and ecology design. The current system is roughly what it should be like.

There are minor side caves and dungeons that used to be bad, that have since been changed to be extremely challenging and rewarding, that actually *don't* get cleared out when everything else is because the content clearers are going off their old meta OOC information still.

Suits me fine. I'm pulling out some crazy loot from all sorts of places. You're not looking hard enough. There's more than just hags, perfidus, blaustein, har'akir and barrows.

[Cody]

I feel like there needs to be a system to punish groups of people from pillaging every easy go-to dungeon within 5 minutes of the mist camp. Of course, I don't seriously mean that, but it is an annoying issue of what the average high level player conversation is:

"Okay. We've done Cursts. What's next?"
"church"
"Okay. We've done the church. What's next?"
"thoth?"
"Not there, some people just did it."
And so on and so on for the shipwreck, aboleth, perfidus, salt shadows, and what have you dungeons all over the place.

Often I see players just doing a checklist over what content is available for them to raid like this. Making it so just a small number of active mist camp characters are the ones eating up all the good spots and leaving scraps for everybody else.

Players who are not playing the game 12+ hours a day every day should have a better chance at the best dungeon spawns too. Increase the spawn rate maybe, but leave the anti-farming measures the same for those targeting a dungeon too many times in a period.

[apeppertoo]

There should not be a variable respawn system. Every dungeon should spawn at max every time - there are systems in place to remove the incentive to farm forever already with both XP and loot. The negative externality of the current system - that many players almost never get to do anything because the spawns are worthless to them - heavily outweighs the dubious benefits, which are again covered by other systems already.

[Chadyo]

Maybe it would be nice that when you've gathered a group you can approach a dungeon and OOCly select which strength of spawn could be selected from the outside. And when you select it all the mobs of that strength appear inside.

[Zyemeth]

I would much prefer all spawns be maximum strength at all times for many of the above stated reasons and also because it makes the dungeons scarier and more dangerous which is in favor of the theme of the server. IE there should not be a cave of werewolves that a group of level 3 characters can clear. These are werewolves and in their den where they are strongest. Some level 5-8 characters should at the very least be required and yet on minimum spawn you have characters in the world on their second day who could take the generically named "Werewolf" that spawns on the min strength of the dungeon.

If max spawn at all times is too severe for the devs to go for then I would double the spawn rates or even at least remove the current minimum spawn tables and start at what is considered mid-spawn and grow from there.

[McDuck]

I feel like there needs to be a system to punish groups of people from pillaging every easy go-to dungeon within 5 minutes of the mist camp. Of course, I don't seriously mean that, but it is an annoying issue of what the average high level player conversation is:

"Okay. We've done Cursts. What's next?"
"church"
"Okay. We've done the church. What's next?"
"thoth?"
"Not there, some people just did it."
And so on and so on for the shipwreck, aboleth, perfidus, salt shadows, and what have you dungeons all over the place.

Often I see players just doing a checklist over what content is available for them to raid like this. Making it so just a small number of active mist camp characters are the ones eating up all the good spots and leaving scraps for everybody else.

Players who are not playing the game 12+ hours a day every day should have a better chance at the best dungeon spawns too. Increase the spawn rate maybe, but leave the anti-farming measures the same for those targeting a dungeon too many times in a period.

To clear on that. Those groups you mention Are often groups formed ooc to powerfarm. The grab a few people of ther discords to get things going. Ther moosty after specific items/resources

My character keeps people up to date on wher people have been going to or from when it is about dungeons. So far proven to be effective to give people atleast insight of what and how. And yes i am one of those players who is around 10h a day if not more on the server. So i see a lot. The isue at hand moostly is. Those groups that are formed do not take others with them. The main isue with that is. People get deprived of ther dungeoneerings experience.

Lowering Dungeon times would help. But keeping it at maxx al time would not. Meens That will just give more way into those groups that can consistantly farm those places.

Now what will happend with that if we keep it at max spawn all the time. They keep farming them and select a single person each time to loot it. So the timer only sets on that person per dungeon. If you have a group of 10 people of example that consistantly grind every wher with ther friends. That will be heavely abused cause they keep rotating the player of who opens those chests.

What also curently a trend is.  Lower lvls get power lvled in places on a max spawn by one or two of ther friends. To get ther gear in that specific location. Now what i think should stop is the OOC forming of groups to rush the dungeons. But these things consistantly happend on EU times till the point wher NA People starts to come back from work or what ever. Thats the time when most dungeons just have been cleared and people just basicly waiting for a dungeon to spawn up at max spawn.

The only way to keep that on track now, And i have happely provided that information freely to players every time. If is some one keeping a tab on those things.

What my personal frustration is in this. The people who consistantly wait at the keep for a dungeon. The consistant question is asked. Is ther an adventure going? Oh not then i log of. People eighter hardly have the patience to wait to form a group. Or ther are a few groups who consistantly almost every single day kept rotating dungeons.

This is also an economical strain on players. Cause wher do you make the most gold out of? Out of dungeons. Market is not fixed but items are scars as it is. And the items that do help a lot. Get hogged up like crazy by people and passed down to ther ooc friends.  Or if one wants to buy it it becomes imidiatly into, I want this Rare artifact or i want this rare material for it otherwise you won't get it. . And i am not talking about simple items. No i am talking about Full sets of gear from one to the others that makes a low lvl almost imune to anny thing in barovia and even has more to boot after. 


Ther is no real selution to that problem at hand. Unless Devs and DM's consistantly are able to monitor it to put some halt to it and make some changes in the dungeons over all

The keep is now a waiting culture for dungeons. Ther is nothing els happening ther. It is a nice hub. But Unfinished in that regard as well.

Ther are several selutions that have been sugested but just waved of by Devs and DM's with a hard no.
The system at hand might have worked if the population did not exeed more then 50 people. But on a daily base ther abot 4 to 500 difrent logins every day over the time spawn of 24h. THats a lot of people and acounts. The current system can not facilitate that anny more. So yes. I agree. Change must happend. But not only dungeon wise.

[RedMoney]

There is an action server for people who primarily care about grinding dungeons.  It's never used but the DM team could do some kind of NCE event there to get people interested in checking it out.

[McDuck]

There is an action server for people who primarily care about grinding dungeons.  It's never used but the DM team could do some kind of NCE event there to get people interested in checking it out.

Nice and all. But people want it here, And not an entire new server to boot with it

[Ryujin]

That server already exists and is there. But it's not a good suggestion as this would literally just split up the player base (If it would ever even happen in the first place) and IMHO that's just not a good 'solution'.

[ChrisRanHimselfOver]

Lowering Dungeon times would help. But keeping it at maxx al time would not. Meens That will just give more way into those groups that can consistantly farm those places.

Now what will happend with that if we keep it at max spawn all the time. They keep farming them and select a single person each time to loot it. So the timer only sets on that person per dungeon. If you have a group of 10 people of example that consistantly grind every wher with ther friends. That will be heavely abused cause they keep rotating the player of who opens those chests.

Were this to happen, it would require a bit of communication from the players as the one collecting the loot would need to wait for everyone to leave the dungeon, then loot everything and after they've left the dungeon the group needs to wait roughly 15 minutes for the dungeon to reset before they can enter. But the looter can't go back in. Now that they're flagged, the rest of the group would need to tackle it with one less person and repeat the process with a different player, which would reset the original looter's ability to go in.

But really, how many groups tackle dungeons in this way? I'd wager not that many and the current system punishes people that have no intention of playing in this way. If people tackled dungeons in that way it'd seem more like an exploit of the module's mechanics to me and worth reporting, which is how most bad actors should be dealt with, not with systems that punish the entire playerbase for the actions of a small group.

There is an action server for people who primarily care about grinding dungeons.  It's never used but the DM team could do some kind of NCE event there to get people interested in checking it out.

I'd just like to state this isn't about grinding dungeons, this is about ensuring everyone has access to them. With dungeons being the primary option for advancement in the module in regards both to xp gains and monetary value, it only makes sense to make sure they're available as often as possible.

Though if this is another proposed solution regarding the people that do grind dungeons, I'd also point out that occasionally people that don't dungeon often will grind dungeons to get their xp and loot before going back to focusing on RP. And I'm hesitant to advocate splitting the playerbase.

[immasturgeon]

Constant max dungeon spawns will make farming worse not better. People do dungeons for xp as much or more than loot. Loot is varied and unpredictable, xp isn't.

I only think this could work, if there is an xp lock on dungeons in a similar way to loot, can do a single dungeon every 48-72 hours otherwise no xp, no loot.

[ChrisRanHimselfOver]

Constant max dungeon spawns will make farming worse not better. People do dungeons for xp as much or more than loot. Loot is varied and unpredictable, xp isn't.

I only think this could work, if there is an xp lock on dungeons in a similar way to loot, can do a single dungeon every 48-72 hours otherwise no xp, no loot.

This is covered by the xp cap system. It doesn't take long for people to find themselves getting reduced or no xp and that typically locks people out of hitting dungeons for a week or so. Sometimes longer if they tackle things far too difficult for them.

[Maffa]

that famously wont stop more than a few, "redcap is a way of life" "blind drive or you're doing it wrong" et sim

again i don't want to tell people how to have fun.

[ChrisRanHimselfOver]

that famously wont stop more than a few, "redcap is a way of life" "blind drive or you're doing it wrong" et sim

again i don't want to tell people how to have fun.

That is a relatively small group of players and as such they can be excluded as outliers. We shouldn't be making balancing decisions around a few players that choose a style of play that differs from the norm or what's intended.

[apeppertoo]

I don't find any objections to all max all the time persuasive.

For XP we're spared the problem of people grinding it constantly with the XP cap system. For loot, the loot respawn mechanic already covers the objection given the unwieldy, impractical means of avoiding it.

Finally, let's assume the objections are right. Say we have a group hypothetically smashing any given dungeon for hours. At that point I argue it's a problem for our discipline team to solve. The person who only gets a few hours to play each week shouldn't be punished with no dungeons to go to - the farm group should be punished for treating this like an MMO. It's already a logistical hurdle to even get into dungeon content for a person with not much time - the artificial barrier of low spawn doesn't need to make it worse.

[Starburst]

There is an action server for people who primarily care about grinding dungeons.  It's never used but the DM team could do some kind of NCE event there to get people interested in checking it out.

Investing time in an entirely different server that doesn't translate to the current game one is invested in is completely tangential to the subject.

I agree with the OP- the supply and demand for the number of players this server enjoys seems to need some tweaking in regard to how dungeon spawns are handled.  It's a symptom of success and is a good thing.  Bigger garden, more plants, more water.
 

[McDuck]

that famously wont stop more than a few, "redcap is a way of life" "blind drive or you're doing it wrong" et sim

again i don't want to tell people how to have fun.

That is a relatively small group of players and as such they can be excluded as outliers. We shouldn't be making balancing decisions around a few players that choose a style of play that differs from the norm or what's intended.

This is not a small group doing it. I am not one pointing fingers on who do's it or not. It is how ever frustrating for the players who do want to do a dungeon and rp in the mix.
they just ignore it and don't care. With the mentality you can not stop us from doing it.

And yes they just ignore the caps cause they are already at the max lvl or almost at max lvl for this server.

This is also the reason why you find higher lvl players more in the lower lvl area's to get atleast some resources, Gold, The fun of dungeoning in.

As long that do's not change. It will keep repeating it self over and over.

[Day Old Bread]

I don't do enough dungeons to notice there being a problem.

However, as far as I understand it, loot drops are tied to the strength of the dungeon spawn. As a ninja looter, max spawn all the time would be HEAVENLY. But I suspect that'd just add to the already problematic economy issues.

I'm pretty happy with the way things are currently. As someone who dungeons a few days out of the week, at most, and spends the rest of their time doing RP, it's a non issue. I also don't usually look to the dungeon for XP and loot alone. A lot of times it's an RP decision. End of the day, most of our PCs are still adventurers to some degree. That said, I'll go to a dungeon for the lore, to collect reagents, to find loot, to gain experience, to spend time with the PC's that my character likes, to kill time, etc...

If, as players, we start to look at a dungeon as a part of the journey instead of a means to an end, I think we'll be more satisfied with what we've got going already.

[Sir Dally]

Hi,

Seeing as I have spent the majority of my time in the past five years grinding this server with all manner of toons with the single goal to solo all the content given. And have done so to the last room of the Sithican salt mines. I might have some insight to this.

I need to start my saying. “Everything is Exploitable, Nothing is Safe” all you can do is minimize the Impact of Mechanical Advantage in the RP space.

It is my experience that roleplay actually matters more than just how well you can pvp someone or do aboleth runs. A real signature of how much hold someone has, is their influence on other players. How much roleplay they create. How much roleplay is centered around them.

“Influence over other players” will be what I focus on now And lead to my next point. That will likely be unpopular.-

“Having Dungeons on Max with short timers benefits the Rollplay focus and cuts power from the Mechanical Players, Dungeon Looters, and Grinders.”

A person's OOC and IC Influence of others is likely rooted in what they can provide the other party. A market saturation of “Good” Loot and the ease of Combat XP gained makes this Influence point weaker. And Promotes more “Realistic” RP. 

As players can not sacrifice Rare/Valuable Items to get out of or “Buy” RP advantages that RP players have spent so much time Cultivating.

“Influence” is the real issue this community seems to be struggling with-

The simple matter is if you take out Items/XP/Gold From the influence Pool you only leave Time.

This line of thinking will end in a server where only Time Invested, and RP Matter. And I'll be honest, I fully support it!

As I can more easily Build my army Fully Geared UP Power built monster toons to play sandbox with all the content the DM team Create! (With only the cost of time In truth nothing changes this point.)

Ah yes, If this is my goal why do I not play on the “Action” Server? Well in truth, It's a Boring Lifeless world without the player Population. It's About Scenery you all make such a nice world to interact with I simply can not play on the Action Server. 

[FinalHeaven]

I don't really think that the variable spawning system does much, except where it is (presumably) attached to Ninja Looting.  There will always be people on a server that have more time than others, as well as people who use a good portion of that time to dungeon. 

I see this as another system that POTM has to make things harder than necessary for some sort of "vision", that really only serves to lift certain groups up and keep others down.  There are ways around it at least which I suppose is nicer than some other current design choices but they also require the player to go out of their way to do certain things in-game that might be immersion breaking, and some people don't want to do that.

The argument could be made that there probably isn't much difference between a low spawn and arriving at a dungeon that is empty because it hasn't respawned after the last group yet, but I think it's a difference in perception.

Of course the drawback to a system where all dungeons spawn at maximum strength would be that depending on spawn times you could still very frequently not end up dungeoning if you don't have a lot of play time, or run into groups that are waiting outside a dungeon for it to respawn and don't want to include you.

[Day Old Bread]

Hi,

Seeing as I have spent the majority of my time in the past five years grinding this server with all manner of toons with the single goal to solo all the content given. And have done so to the last room of the Sithican salt mines. I might have some insight to this.

I need to start my saying. “Everything is Exploitable, Nothing is Safe” all you can do is minimize the Impact of Mechanical Advantage in the RP space.

It is my experience that roleplay actually matters more than just how well you can pvp someone or do aboleth runs. A real signature of how much hold someone has, is their influence on other players. How much roleplay they create. How much roleplay is centered around them.

“Influence over other players” will be what I focus on now And lead to my next point. That will likely be unpopular.-

“Having Dungeons on Max with short timers benefits the Rollplay focus and cuts power from the Mechanical Players, Dungeon Looters, and Grinders.”

A person's OOC and IC Influence of others is likely rooted in what they can provide the other party. A market saturation of “Good” Loot and the ease of Combat XP gained makes this Influence point weaker. And Promotes more “Realistic” RP. 

As players can not sacrifice Rare/Valuable Items to get out of or “Buy” RP advantages that RP players have spent so much time Cultivating.

“Influence” is the real issue this community seems to be struggling with-

The simple matter is if you take out Items/XP/Gold From the influence Pool you only leave Time.

This line of thinking will end in a server where only Time Invested, and RP Matter. And I'll be honest, I fully support it!

As I can more easily Build my army Fully Geared UP Power built monster toons to play sandbox with all the content the DM team Create! (With only the cost of time In truth nothing changes this point.)

Ah yes, If this is my goal why do I not play on the “Action” Server? Well in truth, It's a Boring Lifeless world without the player Population. It's About Scenery you all make such a nice world to interact with I simply can not play on the Action Server.

To this I would ask, why not start everyone out at lvl 20 with a full set of whatever gear they chose? The mechanical power matters quite a bit. Time invested in RP building influence is negated in many ways, by that mechanical power.

I see a lot of merit to your argument. Don't get me wrong. I just don't agree that levelling the playing field in the way you suggest will yield the results you think it will.

[Chabxxu]

Influence will beat pvp power everytime. You overestimate the amount of PvP that happens on the server. Everyone prepares for it, but there is very little of it because of how easy it is to raise someone who was killed. You will go much further with influencing events than simply PvPing people.

Its heartbreaking to go to a dungeon and see it on minimal spawn after spending an hour looking for a group. I like the max spawn idea.