Author Topic: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.  (Read 2658 times)

She Said Destroy

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2022, 09:37:30 PM »
I really don't get the appeal of roleplaying as an outcast in the outskirts at all. It's one of the more immersion breaking parts of the server, and honestly, always seeing the same map gets boring. If anything, not being allowed to be there should push you to the more interesting parts of the server; or getting involved with Drain stuff, which has been livelier lately.

abolishrent

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2022, 09:39:32 PM »
I really don't get the appeal of roleplaying as an outcast in the outskirts at all. It's one of the more immersion breaking parts of the server, and honestly, always seeing the same map gets boring. If anything, not being allowed to be there should push you to the more interesting parts of the server; or getting involved with Drain stuff, which has been livelier lately.

Drain is fun but is also outcast/outcast interaction, the argument is for more outcast/non-outcast interaction.
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Zyemeth

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2022, 02:12:02 AM »
Being an outcast should provide alternative RP not remove RP opportunity almost entirely. Which is often what happens as it stands for a lot of outcast concepts. There needs to be a better hub than a couple of sewers. There's a reason that the "sewer level" being the most hated trope in a lot of video games.

noah25

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2022, 09:47:48 PM »
Being an outcast should provide alternative RP not remove RP opportunity almost entirely. Which is often what happens as it stands for a lot of outcast concepts. There needs to be a better hub than a couple of sewers. There's a reason that the "sewer level" being the most hated trope in a lot of video games.

I don't know what you are doing with your drain characters but the only Rp I have ever found as rich or as rewarding as being in the drain is in the ezrite church. The hub isnt the problem, maybe your concept is.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2022, 12:03:28 AM »
I don't like hub-centric RP for many reasons, one of them is this prevailing idea that people must create "concepts" which are compatible with them.

Right there is why people are saying the limitation feels bad. They put in all this effort to play a character that's new to them, and when petitioning the community, they're dismissed as "the problem."

The complaint raised is that the other options are the sewers and the MC. Adding more hubs doesn't open the outskirts to the caliban or make it less "hard mode." They're still going to have a huge amount of the module locked off to them. The real truth is that if they have to RP their outcast status more, e.g. in locales where they are mostly tolerated, but still potentially treated poorly, it's going to have a self-activating effect in which their character's fatal flaw matters more, and that's where the real challenge is and where the real fun is. People want more of it, can you really blame them?
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Zyemeth

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2022, 07:36:39 AM »
Being an outcast should provide alternative RP not remove RP opportunity almost entirely. Which is often what happens as it stands for a lot of outcast concepts. There needs to be a better hub than a couple of sewers. There's a reason that the "sewer level" being the most hated trope in a lot of video games.

I don't know what you are doing with your drain characters but the only Rp I have ever found as rich or as rewarding as being in the drain is in the ezrite church. The hub isnt the problem, maybe your concept is.

My concept is quite a generic one and surprise, living in the sewers doesn't fit most concepts. No one in the world thinks "Huh. I'll live in a sewer." unless under the influence by some pretty terrible life choices so that they aren't in their right mind. Some concepts off the top of my head that wouldn't make sense.

1. Any generic xeph.
2. Most half orcs regardless if coming from orc heritage or human.
3. Any halfway respectable dark elf.
4. Almost any plane-touched with any background that isn't "sewer hobo"

The only backgrounds or concepts that suit a sewer hub full of criminals is someone who is from the muck and into criminal activity which might include... -some- caliban. Maybe some real eccentric gnomes or dwarves, maximum sketchy criminals from the slums of some human adjacent settlement? It's almost like your race doesn't inherently decide your lifestyle and morals or something... And even with characters that are stereotypes, most of the outcast race stereotypes still don't suit sewer-life.

ladylena

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2022, 08:38:58 AM »
In barovia all characters that dont look human belong in the sewer. Hidden from view of so called decent people on the surface. In their home world that would be different but in ravenloft if ya aren't normal looking you have no right to be with normal people. It sucks it is meant to. Ravenloft is not a friendly accepting place. Potm Is ravenloft setting. If you look weird expect the natives of barovia and dementlieu and hazlan to run you out of town. Dont enjoy it? Dont play a weird looking race.
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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2022, 09:53:02 AM »
In barovia all characters that dont look human belong in the sewer. Hidden from view of so called decent people on the surface. In their home world that would be different but in ravenloft if ya aren't normal looking you have no right to be with normal people. It sucks it is meant to. Ravenloft is not a friendly accepting place. Potm Is ravenloft setting. If you look weird expect the natives of barovia and dementlieu and hazlan to run you out of town. Dont enjoy it? Dont play a weird looking race.

My concept is quite a generic one and surprise, living in the sewers doesn't fit most concepts. No one in the world thinks "Huh. I'll live in a sewer." unless under the influence by some pretty terrible life choices so that they aren't in their right mind. Some concepts off the top of my head that wouldn't make sense.

1. Any generic xeph.
2. Most half orcs regardless if coming from orc heritage or human.
3. Any halfway respectable dark elf.
4. Almost any plane-touched with any background that isn't "sewer hobo"

The only backgrounds or concepts that suit a sewer hub full of criminals is someone who is from the muck and into criminal activity which might include... -some- caliban. Maybe some real eccentric gnomes or dwarves, maximum sketchy criminals from the slums of some human adjacent settlement? It's almost like your race doesn't inherently decide your lifestyle and morals or something... And even with characters that are stereotypes, most of the outcast race stereotypes still don't suit sewer-life.

What ladylena suggests is, in my opinion, the truth of the matter. It's unfortunate that the setting we play in isn't open to all sorts of characters. But, generally speaking, its xenophobic in all the realms where hubs exist. However, without this defining element of the server, you're looking at a much different setting to exist in.

While your concept for an outcast character might not fit into the sewer dweller archetype, you as a player should be cognizent of how that will end up playing out and what that will mean for your outcast character.  How will your friendly, outgoing, social butterfly of a half-orc react to being cast out of a society that is unfamiliar to them? How will your prideful, perhaps noble, dark elf, react to being looked down upon.  There are outcast characters who can get away with existing on the surface and even walking among polite society. But those are rare cases at best. There are perfectly normal looking characters who push the boundary of outcast status and therefor walk a very procarious line.

When I started playing on the server, d'loo was pretty quiet. In time, players were able to attract others to come to the zone and partake in a different style of play than one you'll find in the MC or the Outskirts.  The outcast community is no different in this regard. It's going to take many players (some of whom are already working hard on creating a thriving outcast community) and persistence, to make it work.  They will always be swimming against the current however, because it's a more difficult role to take on in the servers community.

Hopefully you'll find ways to explore what it would mean for your strange looking character to exist in a world that hates them. How will they react? How will it shape their personality? Will they retaliate? Will they take a more peaceful road? Will they organize a mass rebellion and attempt to overtake the surface? The possibilities for such a character are outstanding and, quite frankly, the more I write, the more I'm drawn to playing one.

ladylena

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2022, 11:33:59 AM »
ZSRunner nailed it perfectly. It's the same sort of thing that pops up when you're a non native cleric. Suddenly your connection to your god is GONE. Characters from other settings who end up in Ravenloft (POTM) experience drastic, awful changes from their normal. It's like being dumped into a horror movie where the language is different than your own, the culture is different, and you can't explain yourself or understand what is happening. It's horror. It's scary, it's upsetting, it's unsettling. It's uncomfortable, it's weird.

Ravenloft is a gothic horror setting, gothic horror focuses a lot on the downfall of the hero, focuses on humanity doing awful things for the sake of something good, falling to temptation, succumbing to dark desires. You've got Frankenstein, a brilliant scientist who wanted to push science further than it ever had. He wanted to prove that electricity is what powered life. Dr Frankenstein robbed graves, cut up corpses, assembled in his mind the perfect human specimen and animated it. He called it Adam, and Adam was innocent, but people saw a monster and they targetted both the innocent creature who did not ask to be brought to life and the demented doctor who made him.

Or take Renfield from Dracula. Driven to madness in servitude to a vampire. The horror that would be felt dwelling in the castle, misled the entire time.

Carmilla, a vampire story about obsession. The fall from grace, the questionable scientist, the outcast trying to fit in desperately who may turn to unconventional ways. Once upon a time I remember a caliban mage who wanted to fit in, performed some arcane and dark magic and got a new form, one more acceptable. But while they gained a beautiful female form, imagine how weird it was for them to have been male and suddenly now you are female, so pretty all the men are drawn to you.

All of these things and more are aspects that make up gothic horror. It's a lot different from current horror genres more subtle in a lot of ways and focuses a lot more on the moral quandry than say a big bad villain.

Barovia especially is xenophobic, which means they are kind of afraid of outsiders. Think of movies with those native villagers who shut their windows, doors and shops when the unknown hero walks into town.
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She Said Destroy

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2022, 11:51:15 AM »
I don't think this thread is about outcast players disliking gothic horror or being shunned from society, reviled, etc. It's clear that it's part of the fun and what makes playing one interesting.

Rather, that they wish there were more ways of roleplaying with non-outcasts that didn't involve ending the roleplay because they have to leave the scene and go back to their hiding hole in the sewer. It's like interacting with an AMPC and they kill you - the RP is over. If you're an outcast with a non-outcast and they just make you leave, you can't really RP either.

Is being told to scram back to the sewer/away from the city a valuable part of being shunned? Yes. Should it be the only way? No.

On the hub aspect:
Is having the Drain as a meeting place valuable? Yes. Should it be the only way? No. Should it be happening in the daytime outskirts instead? Also no.

Both problems seem to stem more so from patterns in player's roleplay leading to unsatisfactory conclusions, rather than how the hubs are set up. The ideal solution here would be to have outcasts and non-outcasts being able to set up consistent roleplay with eachother away from these places, or if they have to pick one, pick the Drain; non-outcasts can go there whereas outcasts can't go to the daytime Outskirts (unless you have invis or something, but that's iffy).

If finding consistent roleplay is the issue, I'd advise using the roleplay personals thread to meet with people or coordinate concepts. It's worth a shot.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2022, 01:16:47 PM »
Agreed. The angle I'm coming from is that I want to see more options precisely so caliban/outcast players can explore these themes more.
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Zyemeth

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2022, 01:35:10 PM »
In barovia all characters that dont look human belong in the sewer. Hidden from view of so called decent people on the surface. In their home world that would be different but in ravenloft if ya aren't normal looking you have no right to be with normal people. It sucks it is meant to. Ravenloft is not a friendly accepting place. Potm Is ravenloft setting. If you look weird expect the natives of barovia and dementlieu and hazlan to run you out of town. Dont enjoy it? Dont play a weird looking race.

Still missing the point. You're telling me out of the thousands of misted outcasts, some of which considering the length of the server's existence have had children that could be nearing adult-hood, nobody built their own shanty town somewhere? I'll re-state the point. Alternative RP=Good. Lack of RP=bad. Request of many=Give alternative. Sewer bad idea, try again. It doesn't even have to be in Barovia really but that's more of a big-picture thing as opposed to listing the reasons that the Drain needs revised which was a discussion had on discord earlier today.

My own thoughts on that were the following.

PROBLEM: It's out of the way and not something easily stumbled upon for a new player. Hubs are well travelled and convenient areas which sadly the Drain is not. Most level 2 characters would either die to rats while trying to reach it IF they didn't get lost from vague directions and end up somewhere else in the sewer maze.

SOLUTION: I would suggest having outcast races spawn in here instead of the Vistani camp? You could maybe have an NPC that can greet you like Petre and be like "Oi welcome to da Drain, Mist-head. Let me tell ya a little about this place and ya just might survive. And don't be goin' topside during daylight hours or them Garda nutters'll bust yer ugly mug open good"

Now it would be cool if the place was a good place that was easy to get to naturally for new players then you could mentor new outcasts that come through but there isn't much motivation to hang out in the Drain to begin with. Maybe expand or revise the tunnels down there to reflect multiple dungeons to mirror challenges such as the burned house or beetle caverns for said characters and have their own little bounty items to turn in to the Drain. Maybe get paid for keeping the tunnels "clear and safe for the caliboys".



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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2022, 02:03:00 PM »
Still missing the point. You're telling me out of the thousands of misted outcasts, some of which considering the length of the server's existence have had children that could be nearing adult-hood, nobody built their own shanty town somewhere? I'll re-state the point. Alternative RP=Good. Lack of RP=bad. Request of many=Give alternative. Sewer bad idea, try again. It doesn't even have to be in Barovia really but that's more of a big-picture thing as opposed to listing the reasons that the Drain needs revised which was a discussion had on discord earlier today.

My own thoughts on that were the following.

PROBLEM: It's out of the way and not something easily stumbled upon for a new player. Hubs are well travelled and convenient areas which sadly the Drain is not. Most level 2 characters would either die to rats while trying to reach it IF they didn't get lost from vague directions and end up somewhere else in the sewer maze.

SOLUTION: I would suggest having outcast races spawn in here instead of the Vistani camp? You could maybe have an NPC that can greet you like Petre and be like "Oi welcome to da Drain, Mist-head. Let me tell ya a little about this place and ya just might survive. And don't be goin' topside during daylight hours or them Garda nutters'll bust yer ugly mug open good"

Now it would be cool if the place was a good place that was easy to get to naturally for new players then you could mentor new outcasts that come through but there isn't much motivation to hang out in the Drain to begin with. Maybe expand or revise the tunnels down there to reflect multiple dungeons to mirror challenges such as the burned house or beetle caverns for said characters and have their own little bounty items to turn in to the Drain. Maybe get paid for keeping the tunnels "clear and safe for the caliboys".

I think the point is to provide setting integrity. Outcasts are outcasts for a reason. They are feared, reviled, hated, and sometimes hunted. Outcasts should be away from polite society, otherwise they're not outcasts.

The drain isn't terribly inconvenient for an experienced player.  In fact, I'd argue its safer once inside, and more central to many locations throughout Western Barovia. For new players, it's going to be a challenge. It should be a challenge. It helps set the tone and expectations.

Essentially, you shouldn't be playing an outcast race with the expectations that your experience is going to be similar to your non-outcast counterparts. At that point, you're just playing a race for the mechanical advantages it gives and not the RP experience it illicits.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2022, 02:47:27 PM »
I'd much rather this hypothetical new hub were found somewhere in the Vallaki slums, following a similar theme to the Thieves' Highway found in Port, though perhaps not quite so many areas and so maze-like, unless it turns out that it needs such expansion.

Not caliban/outcast centric, just somewhere they can slip into and coexist, tentatively tolerated, but also isn't just a comic book villain hideout. It could just be some condemned bar, warehouse, antique store, auction house - anything like that, as long as it has a decent amount of open space so people can carpentry up a little extra scenery to make it their own. Player merchants should be allowed to open up shop to offer some level of magnetism to the area, beyond just the RP happening here. Poor and destitute Barovians, forgotten by their own society, squat here alongside adventurers who were injured before their career could take off, and maybe some outcast NPCs in spare rooms or backrooms (just remove all the doors to remind people it's a hub, not an inn), or maybe in the basement which could be connected to the sewers, or up in the attic if you are daring and want to somehow make a "rooftops" area for characters with more dexterity than sense. No rentals here, just a shared space even if there must be a clear division.

It will take some brainstorming, but I think the "bubble" it exists in would be a lot more believable than the circus that is the outskirts. That's the skeleton of the idea. Think of a scaled up Lady's Rest basement but it's actually in the city walls now, so it can be bigger.

Here, it's well in the bounds of setting scope and caliban/outcasts will be judged for what they are, which risks denting the reputation of those who treat with said outcasts. This is a real consequence and an actual RP choice, whereas slipping into the Drain and hanging with outcasts essentially has no downside and you can even get away with not RPing the smell.

If it actually sees some use for a while, this could provide a reason for people to RP in the city more frequently, rather than just pass through it, and from the slums, the rest of the city can be rejuvenated. There's already a bit of activity in the city but by providing opportunities for more RP here, encouraging more RP will have more success. Non-adventuring, religion-skeptical, magic-fearing Barovian natives who are terrified of the caliban will fit in better on their own server if those caliban are actually made to scurry around in the shadows and retreat to the sewers when they become too numerous and too brave. As of now, the two groups essentially do not interact unless some new player gets shot by a guard or some experienced player puts an insane amount of effort in only to end up in a fight or exiled anyway.

This has potential to create friction between characters, rather than distance between players. I do think we need more hubs that appeal to different groups potentially in conflict or competition, without trying to just include everyone or be an adventurer haven. High level adventurers don't need homes, they need causes, and caliban don't need to be accepted, they need a patch of dirt worth standing up for without immediately having to turn to revolutionary tactics. Some areas in and around Vallaki do in fact work for this and caliban have been known to slip into places where they might be able to get some help sometimes. That is a great model to work off of that will support more nuanced characters.
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ladylena

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2022, 04:18:46 PM »
There are a few places that come to my mind in Barovia: Krofburg tent city has a caliban centered bar, Berez has a caliban cult and a maze of tunnels under it. There is a shady bar in the Wachter Estate that has some drug I believe upstairs.

I don't see any reason why someone can't go ahead and try to make a shanty town near Vallaki for the outcasts, but I would be honest that when Garda hear of it being within Vallaki territory, expect them to bust it down. If it's outside Vallaki or wachter, etc territory it ought to be fine, but then again there will be risk in getting there, but having a relatively high level involved could keep the path way clear. We can do a lot as players, but always remember that outcasts are outcasts, it's going to be harder. It's a rp server set in a gothic horror setting that's xenophobic, and unpleasant.

A thieves highway sort of thing in Vallaki could be neat, it'd be much smaller and probably only part of the slums, but it could work. There are also a few abandoned houses in Vallaki where outcasts could hang out until the garda search empty buildings. But also Barovia doesn't tend to care about the comfort of the people there it's not a place like Dementlieu that has had an active commoners rising up for the betterment of the slums sort of thing. It's a different beast. Each domain is a different beast with a different aspect of gothic horror. I remember in the past there was someone using the sullen woods camp as an outlander base for a while, and prior to that there have been secretive meeting places in Vallaki that have been used.  Just always remember when in Barovia everything belongs to the count
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2022, 04:28:18 PM »
Yeah, I am apprehensive about a shanty town, at least one being built by the devs. Players can build one and resist the guards, but out in the open like that, it shouldn't be a permanent structure. Crammed in Vallaki's alleyways and sidestreets and squatting in dilapidated buildings makes more sense for a semi-permanent place to hang out.

The other hubs atm are a little confusing or roundabout for newer players, ex. the sheer distance of Krofburg, and the more recent difficulties in getting there make it only useful for more weathered players who have pre-existing RP that carries on there naturally, which is fine, but for a main hub to dip into, right in Vallaki is probably best.
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Maffa

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2022, 05:25:46 AM »
I do not think a shanty town belongs to a place like Vallaki/Barovia.

Port is way richer than Vallaki, but Vallaki's poor are waaay better than Port poor.

Calibans dont belong anywhere in Barovia. I would argue them being around kroftburg as well, having dirty calibans stealing jobs from honest barovians it's not something i see that you have to pass in front of if you ever want to get to vallaki for reason (maybe it's canon kosher, but thats the impression i get).
Vallakians burn down bookstores. What do you (you collective) think they will do if a town made by calibans were to pop up anywhere near Vallaki? If it were somewhere out of hand, near the haunted monastery, or along the northern or eastern side of the lake, maybe, but i highly doubt barovians would tolerate the existance of such a obvious target for rage and fear near at hand...


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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2022, 04:14:21 PM »
Calibans will never "belong" in Barovia, but Vallaki still has the ratter standing at his door in the slums.

We've had shanty town suggestions before, but honestly, they all just give me a mist camp vibe.

Krofburg is a good example of what I mean with my suggestion. Because they are visible, you must react. It's RP. A native Barovian character might be happy to see them put in their place, doing the hardest, most undesirable work.

Vallaki's not the same as Krofburg but check out my suggestion and compare it to the ratter, who has a very visible building in the slums and stands right in his door. My suggestion concerns a condemned/abandoned building where the outcast NPCs, if any, are well out of view of the "front door" (which might be a hole in the wall or something) and they exist as a symbol of the squalor that is the reality of Vallaki's slums.

We have enough reasons for players to roam around the Vallaki wilderness, this is about bringing them into the city, and it's not a new hub just for caliban.
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Maffa

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2022, 06:51:24 AM »
the ratter is impled to eat the rats, but all it is known is that he pays for rats to be killed, which means he performs a social service... what he does with that is anyone's guess... (poor mans winter cloaks? meat fillers for the tigan rest? glue? know knows?)

I do not see anything remotely caliban endorsing in Vallaki, and i cannot see it happening without overhauling the idea i have about vallaki


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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2022, 01:08:22 PM »
The point is he is clearly a freak and an outcast, yet no one burns his place down. His service does not matter, he is what he is, if he was immersion breaking or setting defying, he'd have been removed from the module long ago.

The slums are where "failed" Barovians are going to live, not farmers who live in a hovel outside the city, not successful merchants who live in the residential district among family or stick it out in the merchant's district where sleeping one story up from their storefront would be common, certainly not those who descend from the noble families and cling to their laurels, but perhaps a few who have drunk all their money up and been exiled from their homes. The slums are where the Barovians will have sent their terminally ill, their poor, their disfigured, their hopeless. The caliban is a level below that on the hierarchy. The smart ones find a support structure in the sewer, and the strong ones survive to run to the wilderness and live like an animal. But not all of them are that brave.

The caliban wouldn't be endorsed in this hypothetical hub (a forgotten, barricaded building in the back of the slums, far away from public view), and any NPCs appearing here would be a representation of just how bad it is in the slums. This idea that if you creep through the detritus, you can find the real untouchables hiding in the shadows, and it includes those Barovians who have become apathetic to their own fears and comfort because they have no other choice but to squat under the same roof as the caliban. They would still be further out of view than he is. Shunned even there, but in such a hub, players would have to confront this problem rather than pretend it doesn't exist and slip out of character. Not just outcasts, but everyone else.

Referring to my earlier post or calling back to the thieves' highway sort of deal. I'm not mischaracterising the caliban as being welcome in Vallaki and don't want to see my idea mischaracterised as pushing the proposition that they should be.
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Maffa

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2022, 03:25:26 AM »
Again on the comparison between Port and Vallaki, vallaki is not a city, it's a town, and even if game wise it's even larger than port it cannot be. The ouvrier is a daedalus of condemned cheap buildings pulled up by unscrupulous speculators to cram the destitute guild workers in cramped cheap places. This is the premise of the thieves highway.
Vallaki doesn't even come closer to that. The slums might be dirty and unwelcoming but the level of destitution of the ouvrier is on another level, and the architectural landscape of a preindustrial revolution multistory spawl cannot be compared to a poor medieval district.


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Marph - Closured
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2022, 03:39:00 AM »
Can't remember if Vallaki is a small town on PotM like it is in the Gaz, or considered something bigger, but I'm aware of the population difference and that the map sizes are misleading. I'm still just talking about one interior in the back of the slums with no more than exactly what we see in the module. Any more infrastructure supporting it would be underground completely, with or without a sewer connection inside.
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Maffa

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2022, 03:47:18 AM »
Might be readier to accept a daedalus of interconnected cellars, but those would just be a replica of the sewers so...


Character List:

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EO

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2022, 09:04:14 AM »
Can't remember if Vallaki is a small town on PotM like it is in the Gaz, or considered something bigger, but I'm aware of the population difference and that the map sizes are misleading. I'm still just talking about one interior in the back of the slums with no more than exactly what we see in the module. Any more infrastructure supporting it would be underground completely, with or without a sewer connection inside.

The problem is that this won't solve anything; the reason most outcasts linger in the outskirts is the same why everyone lingers in the outskirts, it's more convenient. I'd be all for generating interactions between outcasts and non-outcasts but time and time again these interactions haven't been particularly representative of outcast roleplay or themes.

A good example of that is the drow; drow are a feared and hated race in all settings they appear in; the vast majority of Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk adventurers wouldn't associate with drow since they're an evil civilization and boogeymen. Eberron drow carry a similar reputation in their jungles. Drow also hate sunlight so why would they stand outside during the day in the first place? Logically drow wouldn't be tolerated in the outskirts, or the Mist Camp, but they are by the majority. The same could be said of half-orcs and tieflings who also carry a bad reputation in their settings of origin.

Again, this is because it's more convenient to avoid that type of conflict and more convenient for the players to play where there's a majority of people. Building a second hub won't change that since the ratio of outcasts to non-outcasts is rather low; if there's 100 players on and 10 outcasts only, those 10 outcasts can't maintain a self-functioning hub for long (the same applies to any non-main hub really, not just outcasts).

EO

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2022, 09:49:17 AM »
Changes to Radu's perception range, and a way to circumvent the Lady's Rest have been implemented.