Author Topic: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.  (Read 2587 times)

Spazzer

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Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« on: October 31, 2022, 04:33:32 PM »
Current, if a outcast wishes to reach the old well in the outskirts, their either;

A: sneak past Radu, by using concealment, stealth, passing a OCR check, or a very obtuse angle around outside the inn, that can still randomly trigger him to start yelling and agro.

B. Take a obtusely long path around Vallaki just to reach the old well.

Neither of these options are too amazing, for gameplay, doesn't promote any feelings of the roles outcast fill, and in general is a plain annoyance. I feel as though a simple change of giving a path or moving the old well for outcast to use could work perfectly fine and wouldn't hurt anyone.

Opinions?

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2022, 04:35:37 PM »
Just run past Radu. What's the problem? He won't catch up if you just run.
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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2022, 04:40:23 PM »
I agree its a problem, luckily I'm playing a wizard myself, however its a pain to cast invisibility all the time just to walk past Radu. "just walk past him lol" is a bad solution as well due to the fact you instantly out yourself as a outcast, radu still agros on you even if you run as well.

cutting the forest a bit so that you can safely walk past out of agro range would be preferable.

She Said Destroy

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2022, 04:44:14 PM »
Just run past Radu. What's the problem? He won't catch up if you just run.

Sometimes Radu reacts, sometimes he doesn't and it feels like I'm cheesing him, tbh. Either way it's in a weird middle ground.

I feel like an interesting solution here (without editing the outskirts which I'm sure the devs are reticent towards) is including more transitions that lead to the Vallaki sewer system. For instance, below the trap door that leads to the crypts (the one next to the burned house) add in a broken sewer wall and a transition between the cave area and the upper town sewers.
Bam. New way for outcasts to get in, new place for garda to patrol.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2022, 04:47:51 PM »
There already is a transition for that I thought... it just goes through wererats.

Easiest solution is cut a hole through the swathe of trees near the vistani camp that otherwise force you toward the temple, in the direction of the well.

Once a caliban (that wants to be a Vallaki sewer wretch) reaches the well and uses the other routes they'll likely stick to it, but the resets and such that can export one back to the Vistani camp can be problematic to keep running the gauntlet of Radu's cali-ban hammer

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2022, 05:09:13 PM »


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myrddraal

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2022, 06:44:58 PM »
There are like 3 entrances to the sewers I can think of that all are around Vallaki on the outside of the walls. One is in the docks district, no Radu there but requires a very SLIGHT search check, and the two wells.  You have ample ways to get into the sewers as an outcast.  If you want to go the "hard" route there is also the wererat temple you can go through.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 06:51:08 PM by myrddraal »

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2022, 07:16:46 PM »
While I'm usually game for convenience over frustration, I'm not gonna lie- I weigh the annoyance of aggroing Radu to be pretty low on the frustration scale. He's easy to avoid and run from. The only people I ever see getting the Radu smackdown are usually just new players who don't know anything about the OCR system in the first place.

Outcasts definitely deserve more conveniences...like having tailoring dummies with a full dye range in the Drain, and easier access to crafting stations, but overall I don't see the run to the well to be that big of a deal as it is. That being said, if an alternate route is made in the Outskirts that bypasses Radu entirely...? I wouldn't throw a fit over it. It wouldn't negatively impact the server imo.

Myrza

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2022, 05:27:08 AM »
I agree with Swan, outcasts getting chased by Radu is not that bad but it is a minor inconvinience and a bit distracting to me.

gotesu

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2022, 09:06:47 AM »
The thing I personally find most annoying with how it is now is that I feel it's a bit harmful for outskirts rp.

I dont find people crossing the outskirts with Radu shouting and chasing them as something that adds to the rp happening there, be it mule bears or half warded parties running to sell their loads or even winged DrDs because they have no other option if they want to move from the southern forest/drain to the vistani camp and vice versa ( Alright, yes, they have another option, but they have to do a huge circle through the Luna river which makes it practically irrelevant).

Making a straight passage from the well to the vistani camp transition through what is now just a bunch of trees will, IMO, be a positive change, both for QoL and for RP.

bloodless

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2022, 09:19:18 AM »
The map doesn't even need to change, all it would need is a little clickable transition called "goat path" or something.

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2022, 11:01:56 AM »
With how we've been helping outcasts so far, this may be a good time to cut a path through the trees along the way to the vistani camp in the outskirts. That way people could bypass Radu without instigating the agro which, if I recall correctly, increases your OCR rating. So cutting a path through the trees would allow the outcasts to reach the sewer without having to ignore the NPC radu, and the NPC guards near the city gate.

Right now if you are an outcast and you try to go where you're supposed to (caliban and sewers) it can be tricky as you have to pass Radu. I do know there are a few other ways to access the sewers, like the gate near Bervis, but still, with the outskirts being a starting area, having a way to not trigger Radu or be forced to ignore the NPC or increase your OCR would be a very nice quality of life improvement. I don't see any real drawbacks for adding a path that goes behind the inn from the forested bit near the vistani camp. Just a simple little path through those trees could solve a lot of QOL issues for outcasts.
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KovosDatch

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2022, 08:13:09 PM »
While I support this idea, I also think that nighttime provides opportunity for the outcasts to get to the sewers.

It's not always viable, but it is at work around.

Purist

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2022, 02:30:01 AM »
Just leave Radu indoors eternally, not just at night. Man has been witnessing too much Outlandish affairs by standing out there. Not to mention the hundred times he may have been killed by a casual.

Zyemeth

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2022, 03:34:22 AM »
Agreed. Radu is a doorman to protect the inn. Not some enforcer of the outskirts. The guy even chases people into the Temple across the way and will brain someone right at the feet of Lizuca if need be. It's a bit ridiculous.

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2022, 04:00:52 AM »
Just leave Radu indoors eternally, not just at night. Man has been witnessing too much Outlandish affairs by standing out there. Not to mention the hundred times he may have been killed by a casual.

I like this, the poor man has to be nearing retirement by now.

HouseOfLament

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2022, 08:08:08 AM »
I frankly don't think Radu is the annoyance.  My biggest annoyance frankly is when I have an outcast and I do the work/investment to get OCR to a passible level and PC guards kick my character out of the RP area.  That investment includes feats, skills and sometimes even spells.  There are some obvious considerations from the Garda side such as "I have no way to tell what this other PC's OCR is" and "I'm also a player with agency" but blah, it's definitely a peev.
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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2022, 08:57:07 AM »
I frankly don't think Radu is the annoyance.  My biggest annoyance frankly is when I have an outcast and I do the work/investment to get OCR to a passible level and PC guards kick my character out of the RP area.  That investment includes feats, skills and sometimes even spells.  There are some obvious considerations from the Garda side such as "I have no way to tell what this other PC's OCR is" and "I'm also a player with agency" but blah, it's definitely a peev.

Supposedly, they do actually have a way to tell OCR now. I remember something about an update including it a while ago, maybe a year or two. I would assume most don't use it, or they take one look at your character's phenotype and just decide to shoo, even if it says "this person is tolerated/welcome in Barovia."

Unfortunately as you probably already know, the ruling was that player guards are not affected by the "dressing up" an outcast can do, unless they choose to be, and disguises can't hide a character's race.

To the rest of the thread:

I don't play an outcast right now, but I have to agree, I think this is the least of an outcast's worries, having seen (and in some cases stopped) player guards taking outcast corpses from the temple to throw them either in the well or the charnel pit. Imagine being a new player with no witnesses as to where your body went.

The outskirts hub is not supposed to be a place for outcasts. EO has related to us in the past that Drow and other outcasts used to hang out on the bench outside the tavern, so it's no wonder they hired a guard to keep them at least 30 feet away. Now, these outcasts have moved to the other side of the road, and they are usually not contested unless a player guard patrols off toward the temple. Most PCs tolerate or ignore outcasts, disapproval is rarely voiced beyond whispers with sympathetic parties, and they almost never sell them out.

Moving Radu indoors permanently could be okay, but I think the point is he's supposed to scare the unwanted types away from the tavern. It's not a tavern that welcomes outcasts. Outcasts already have the run of the outskirts and they hang out in the graveyard or on the far side of the temple without a worry most of the time.
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Avela

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2022, 11:03:00 AM »
I have been playing my first outcast for over a week now for the NCE. And I gotta say...

Sneaking past Radu to get to the sewers has been the -least- of my problems.

I've walked past him several times now and not have been able to trigger him, so either I'm just lucky or I can stay far enough away where he doesn't fuss. At first it almost felt like cheesing... but at the same time, my character is covered head to toe most times and i skirt around his field of view he normally has- not to mention since its the NCE the Outskirts has been pretty populated so it's not like I'm the only one there and moving around... so it's not that environmentally shattering in my mind.

Now that tailoring dummy I don't have access to? -That's- annoying. I have to go over to Petre look at the labels of his dyes and purchase one with my life's savings because I've died twenty times during the event so I have almost no money and be like, "Well I hope this doesn't make me look insane!"

All exaggerated frustrations aside, if there was a way to get to the sewers easier, I wouldn't complain about it. Radu just going inside seems like a kinder option to him, especially since it gets real cold in Barovia and he just has to stand out there all day, so I'm sure he'd appreciate going inside more often. It's just not high on my list of frustrations.
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gotesu

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2022, 02:26:52 PM »
IMO even if Radu remains indoor that still does not solve the problem because outcasts might still need to run infront of garda PCs that stand near the road. I think a straight path is a better solution.


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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2022, 07:07:38 PM »
Outcasts aren't supposed to be out at day in the outskirts, so we won't facilitate that behaviour (we've discussed in the past having more NPCs around to prevent that). We also won't add a direct path to behind the inn as that would just cause problems for new players; that path is purposely designed to lead people to the inn/temple where RP occurs.

In the end, and I've said it before, playing an outcast is a choice in a setting that's mostly xenophobic and alienating. It is hard mode, and it's meant to be. There are plenty of character concepts that are easier than that.

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2022, 08:45:25 PM »
Fair enough, yeah.

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2022, 07:02:37 PM »
We've discussed this as a team and found a way to add a path circumventing the Lady's Rest that hopefully won't affect new players. That being said, we'll also extend Radu's perception range to curb a problem of outcasts lingering openly in the outskirts during the day; if that doesn't work, we'll add other measures to curb that behaviour.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2022, 07:08:51 PM »
Will the perception range still be within speech earshot, or will a direct script message deliver Radu's yelling toward his intended target?

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Re: Outcast lacking a way to the sewers without major annoyance.
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2022, 07:53:33 PM »
Will the perception range still be within speech earshot, or will a direct script message deliver Radu's yelling toward his intended target?

Would be pretty awesome if the message appeared over your head a few times in warning, just for the targeted player. New players and sometimes players who have been around a while don't even react when he's a few feet away as they're walking past while he shakes his arms at them and spams the chat.
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