Suggestion : Perma-death or Forced Shelving

[RedMoney]

Seasonal play would be a more realistic approach to addressing high level stagnation and "oops all alts" situations.

I'd argue for a 12 month season where there would be X number of AMPCs at lvl 6 from day one then at 6 months allow more AMPCs in at lvl 13 (standard)

Players could start in a DM faction as desired, leadership roles would be given out a bit more easily.

Bump the XP rates by about 20% and crafting XP by like 100%

[JayJay]

Just gain levels. 

[Edward]

I think, it would be cool as an optional thing to get double exp if when making your character you could choose to be permadeath.

[cheese tornado]

Characters that are continuously disruptive to the environment of Western Barovia should be punished on a case by case basis. 

It doesn't need to be any more complicated then that.

Mostly agree, I'm wondering though, can someone provide a definition of what's considered "disruptive"? Is it a matter of simply tipping the scales too much?

[Maverick]

This may be a little off-topic but I've played an "Iron Man"[1] mode character. Perma death has certainly spiced up the roleplaying and made dungeons/engaging with antagonistic characters more interesting and adding that sense of caution that feels just right for the server. I highly recommend players at least try to do one Iron Man mode character in their playtime here, bonus points if it's a martial and not a caster like me lol.

Now a more serious take. Perma death shouldn't be forced because it will only create a problematic situation. It won't provide any roleplay or satisfying sessions. I'd even argue that it'll be downright debilitating for the server. Now, this doesn't mean there shouldn't be forced closures from risk. I think the Dungeon Master staff does a fantastic job of warning the players when actions or partaking in events could cause such an outcome. This makes it the player's choice and the player's consequence. Not a forced mechanic.

1.	Iron Man mode: No save slots. One life and any deaths mean the end of the character. No resurrections.

[William Roberts]

Characters that are continuously disruptive to the environment of Western Barovia should be punished on a case by case basis. 

It doesn't need to be any more complicated then that.

Mostly agree, I'm wondering though, can someone provide a definition of what's considered "disruptive"? Is it a matter of simply tipping the scales too much?

Disruptive is subjective, but a typical element is going against the usually tolerated consensus...too many standard deviations from the norm. And in this specific case, yes, I think you're describing the essential component: the PC, by being exceptionally powerful for the expected participation level, can cause disproportionate disruption as an individual and make controlling the disruption more difficult.

[TacticalFerret]

Characters that are continuously disruptive to the environment of Western Barovia should be punished on a case by case basis. 

It doesn't need to be any more complicated then that.

Mostly agree, I'm wondering though, can someone provide a definition of what's considered "disruptive"? Is it a matter of simply tipping the scales too much?

Disruptive (adj): Causing or tending to cause disruption.

Disruption (n): Disturbance or problems which interrupt an event, activity, or process.

In this case, it is referring to higher levelled players that throw their proverbial weight around in a manner that prevents other players (presumably lower levelled) from fully engaging in roleplay with other players. This could mean anything from purchasing an item in a DM-led event/auction intended for lower levelled characters for an exorbitant amount to engaging in direct PvP with an AMPC (likely leading to an early closure). It is precisely what one would expect to be considered disruptive.

[Chadyo]

Highlevels should be responsible, we'd put this strain on DM/CC's to enforce more rules. If you see a high level doing things that you don't think they should just have a chat with them. But the current systems are enough.

[TacticalFerret]

Highlevels should be responsible, we'd put this strain on DM/CC's to enforce more rules. If you see a high level doing things that you don't think they should just have a chat with them. But the current systems are enough.

I partially agree. Current systems are sufficient to address the perceived problem. I think it's more within scope for the DMs to handle those issues as they arise (since in these cases tension is already elevated and generally warrants escalation). Better to remain mostly anonymous than directly engage the player OOCly.

[cheese tornado]

Highlevels should be responsible, we'd put this strain on DM/CC's to enforce more rules. If you see a high level doing things that you don't think they should just have a chat with them. But the current systems are enough.

Though the intention is (arguably) good, "just having a chat with them" can lead to incredible OOC conflict. This is the case when detecting players metagaming or seeing cross-story activity on two characters run the same player. It's just more optimal and less grief for one to deal with to take some screenshots and send them to the DM/CC. I did this recently, and getting eviscerated in tells from a player you respect because you weren't minding your own business isn't great. This is why outsourcing the player/character behavior is left to the DM/CC teams, they have the power to regulate some of this. Ideally I agree, because a simple tell should be enough, but there's always hellish pushback.

[WillowBot]

Honestly I wish there was a perma-death option for everyone so that the risk factor is always applied.

However, it'd be like this, where levels 2-8 have 10 resurrects (or more), then when they get to higher levels, it goes down and doesn't replenish and probably around level 14 they get no resurrects and suppose their soul's "ability to return have been dampened long then."

Just do that for yourself if you like it so much. Count how many times you've died and PK your own character once you hit that cap. Don't push restrictions on everyone else for your enjoyment...

[Spazzer]

Honestly I wish there was a perma-death option for everyone so that the risk factor is always applied.

However, it'd be like this, where levels 2-8 have 10 resurrects (or more), then when they get to higher levels, it goes down and doesn't replenish and probably around level 14 they get no resurrects and suppose their soul's "ability to return have been dampened long then."

Just do that for yourself if you like it so much. Count how many times you've died and PK your own character once you hit that cap. Don't push restrictions on everyone else for your enjoyment...

"Honestly I wish there was a perma-death option for everyone so that the risk factor is always applied."

[cheese tornado]

Honestly I wish there was a perma-death option for everyone so that the risk factor is always applied.

However, it'd be like this, where levels 2-8 have 10 resurrects (or more), then when they get to higher levels, it goes down and doesn't replenish and probably around level 14 they get no resurrects and suppose their soul's "ability to return have been dampened long then."

Just do that for yourself if you like it so much. Count how many times you've died and PK your own character once you hit that cap. Don't push restrictions on everyone else for your enjoyment...

"Honestly I wish there was a perma-death option for everyone so that the risk factor is always applied."

I had this thought earlier that there could be a randomly assigned death-count for every character. Once that's gone, you can only be resurrected by a character, not an NPC. Seems messy though, I do agree the fear of death is nothing

[Death]

For a server that takes large amounts of IRL time, even years to progress in rp, or an OOC mechanical level, getting randomly forced to shelve or perma-killed is just a bad take, hands down.

If this is supposed to be geared towards disruptive players, screenshots logs and reporting clearly to the DM team is your friend.

[TacticalFerret]

Honestly I wish there was a perma-death option for everyone so that the risk factor is always applied.

However, it'd be like this, where levels 2-8 have 10 resurrects (or more), then when they get to higher levels, it goes down and doesn't replenish and probably around level 14 they get no resurrects and suppose their soul's "ability to return have been dampened long then."

Just do that for yourself if you like it so much. Count how many times you've died and PK your own character once you hit that cap. Don't push restrictions on everyone else for your enjoyment...

"Honestly I wish there was a perma-death option for everyone so that the risk factor is always applied."

I had this thought earlier that there could be a randomly assigned death-count for every character. Once that's gone, you can only be resurrected by a character, not an NPC. Seems messy though, I do agree the fear of death is nothing

This is drifting off-topic. Closure that is not imposed by the player or the DM team should not stick. It doesn't matter the character's level nor where they choose to RP.

[SardineTheAncestor]

For a server that takes large amounts of IRL time, even years to progress in rp, or an OOC mechanical level, getting randomly forced to shelve or perma-killed is just a bad take, hands down.

If this is supposed to be geared towards disruptive players, screenshots logs and reporting clearly to the DM team is your friend.

This is basically where I'm at with it. Permadeath is usually seen in games where progression is swift or there isn't much in the first place. If getting to level 20 took 3-4 months, maybe things would be different. I don't like "character culling" as a concept though, it cheapens death IMO.

I think there are better ways for us to keep IC in the realm of IC, and OOC punishments should never coincide with IC ones. That's how we not only fail to address problematic behaviour but we also see spite and bitterness on the follow through. The waiting period involved in even an unsuccessful corpse hide can be seen as an example of this, and having no way to return until the timer is up would only exasperate the issue.

edit for clarity: agreeing that addressing disruptive behaviour, which generally is rare at least in the more conscious and direct forms that it takes, is best addressed privately, rather than just permakilling people "because they act stupid," which tends to be a prevailing outlook on permadeath RP servers.

[BraveSirRobin]

PoTM is a server that paradoxically operates at a pace far slower than servers with greater permanence, gives the least inflection of player input in the worldbuilding, and then yet encourages on a communal level the expiration of characters without any kind of incentive to do so.

If it were up to me; I'd play PoTM like a horror game, and make dying on characters a scene so regular that it would become expected for a character to expire suddenly, and violently, with only the hardest of characters making it into their late-game and being vastly rewarded in the worldspace because of it. However, PoTM doesn't go that full molly and make itself a horror survival game aspect that would redeem the interest in closuring characters or hardcore similar consequences.

It also doesn't help that seemingly every few years, the loot pool gets worse, but the enchanting pool gets better. Nor that crafting is designed by purpose to be so unpleasant as to weed out the unworthy to keep the number of crafters down. On top of that, if you closure out a character, you aren't even given anything interesting in return to make your next character easier to move along with.

If they want to incentivize people to turnover characters, they'd be better incentivized to go through and offer rewards, such as XP Bonus Tokens, to aid them in bringing their new characters to a mid-level range faster. Let them burn an XP Bonus Token or two in order to kill their blind drive back to a full reset, or to gain some kind of financial aid in starting their new characters. Or be approved for more esoteric and non-standard concepts.

They say they want to make closuring a character its own, rewarding experience, and to cultivate a positive culture surrounding it, but there's absolutely no reason to ever do it for the vast majority of players. You may be sick of playing your character now, but shelving them for six months, returning to the concept for a few, then playing another character is what happens to most, especially older characters, because of the sheer quantities of time that went into securing their equipment, wealth, or their rare possession of grandfathered items in the loot pool that are irreplaceable. Why voluntarily do it? So a bunch of people can give you a kudos, pat on the back, and fawn over your character in a community thread? Is it the feel-good vibes of that? I don't see it; I have characters I plan to closure at some point, but even still, I have to actively question if I really should or want to. Not unless I've replaced them in level and wealth of roleplay.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I assume handling character closure(s) gracefully would get you brownie points at the very least when applying for a subrace or MPC, most of which are visibly hostile/outcast type characters where conflict is assured. Being able to let go is basically a requirement for playing them after all.

Though by nonstandard/esoteric concepts you probably mean things that cannot be applied for, which I guess the server isn't really about.

I think that here, closure is meant to be entirely by choice and the reward is finishing the character's story. I assume the staff has some sort of position on that and does not want to incentivise doing it, because that would make it less special and done for its own sake. Any sort of guaranteed permadeath model would seem to work directly against this, even though it's the inverse, because then death becomes too frequent and not only is death cheap but so is life.

[BraveSirRobin]

I assume handling character closure(s) gracefully would get you brownie points at the very least when applying for a subrace or MPC, most of which are visibly hostile/outcast type characters where conflict is assured. Being able to let go is basically a requirement for playing them after all.

Though by nonstandard/esoteric concepts you probably mean things that cannot be applied for, which I guess the server isn't really about.

I think that here, closure is meant to be entirely by choice and the reward is finishing the character's story. I assume the staff has some sort of position on that and does not want to incentivise doing it, because that would make it less special and done for its own sake. Any sort of guaranteed permadeath model would seem to work directly against this, even though it's the inverse, because then death becomes too frequent and not only is death cheap but so is life.

Technically, given hostile/outcast characters cannot be forcibly closured by other players; And .. As far as I'm dutifully aware, vaulting isn't permanent closure anymore either, as the respawn system now exists, the only way a character can get forcibly closured is by Strahd himself yeeting them into Castle Ravenloft. At best, you can be given a forced shelving by being thrown into the Vault or corpse-hidden in such a fashion that you are forced to wait out the timer before paying XP to respawn.

For some people, that might be satisfaction enough to finish their story. But if you're looking at it pragmatically, or if you've played on this server for an extended period of time, that becomes less appealing as a concept, depending on just how invested you've become, time-wise, into their trades and crafts. To put it in a moment's perspective, let's say that you're playing a character who hasn't had a significant domain-based contribution to their history, and doesn't really have a story, so-to-speak. A lot of characters do not have a defined narrative, or opportunity to find one in a greater plotline, and instead exist in a mélange of dungeoneering and slice of life social roleplay.

If you've spent... A year, on your character, they're nearly level twenty, and you are looking at starting another character, what's to stop you from coming back to your now, max-level Druid, or Wizard, or what-have-you, later down the line when new changes come to the server that you're interested in exploring, dungeons, or otherwise events, conflicts, or... Simply just boredom of your concept. There's a lot of security in keeping your high-level character in a back pocket to play when you'd like to experience the other end of the server again. Sometimes you might have multiple said characters, if you've played sufficiently long enough. That's what I believe is the majority experience for players that I've encountered who do gain high-level PCs, but aren't say, a native to any domain.

To put this in perspective, I have a high-level Wizard, a high-level Bard, and .. Honestly, if the respawn system had been implemented back when, I could've had a high-level Paladin who would have been ripe to take advantage of the Blackguard Fall mechanic that got implemented, as he was fallen; He was only closured because I had no particular belief that he'd get out of the Vault. So his closure spurred me to my next character; But if ... I could've just hit the respawn button after six months? Why not? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What actually benefits me from doing that? Why would I logically want to?

[Madame Trousers Son]

Last I asked EO, regular vaults don't allow respawning, no.

[SardineTheAncestor]

It's true, no player can permakill another no matter how well the body is hidden or for how long. Though I mean more with MPCs, it's very possible their first death will be their last.

I think it's really a per person thing. There's obviously no material gain, but making it official has a symbolic effect.

You could argue that depending on playstyle, closure is helpful because you can be sure you did your best and now you are moving on. For some players, being a low level isn't a hindrance at all and it will have a minimal effect on their RP. But for others, perhaps even most, throwing away all that time spent could just be needless frustration.

One of those old threads put it pretty well. Sometimes the moment just seems right, so you seize it.

I think permadeath has its place as its own category of RP, and that survival horror is fantastic, it's just not necessarily this server's daily offering, or even what a majority of players are looking for. I do otherwise like the idea of permadeath zones - just I think it's not right for this server.

[Phantomswake]

I agree with the line of thought BraveSirRobin has with incentive.

When I'm playing a character that I pour lots of crafting and gearing into, it becomes less and less desirable to take huge risks with that character. Admit-ably that is less of an issue with a lawful character that usually plays by the rules anyways.

However, when I play a riskier character (one that I think could get in lots of trouble) I tend to run away from crafting as fast as possible. It is to much of a time sink for the riskier play and I want to keep that character playing by the seat of his pants so to speak.

So my villain who has to play his cards close to the chest and closure is a real threat compared to my hero character who slowly methodically power creeps over time with no sense of closure yet, except as BSR expressed, boredom.

-----------------------------Edit / additional----

It's a different subject matter but I personally dislike that crafting gear is so powerful and I think it should be nerfed. I am sure that the best items are still out of players hands, because I have seen them with my own eyes in rare instances, and they are truly rare / priceless, and they were payed for in blood, every character I've seen with such an item has been ran off or destroyed. (I guess that's kind of a curse to own such a thing in and of itself)

[Sir Dally]

Hi,

I'm a power building mechanical player who has multiple high level characters and accounts and minimal interest in RP outside of the two characters I made to help with factions or where built specific for Plots.

With that said, why is this a conversation you need to have on a RP server?

I can say this with absolute certainty, my veritable army of mid to high level science projects are no match for a level 3 guard who is loved by other's pc's. or a level 2 with a screenshot button.

I can not echo this enough, Screen shot the disruptive behavior and the DM's will take action. I am almost certain the DM's will favor pouring over the repeat offenses of the few who could end up banned, over having to deal with en' mass permadeath consequences on a server with 100+ players. (Seriously... that would suck)

I should also add to any of you who think level means anything here, It is my experience that roleplay actually matters more than just how well you can pvp someone or do aboleth runs. That's why there are level 20 characters you've never heard of and level 8 characters with statues of themselves immortalized on the server. A real signature of how much hold someone has, is their influence on other players. How much roleplay they create. How much roleplay is centered around them.

And on another note, I don't have the stomach for this play anymore. But those who are complaining about spawns at high level wait till you can perma kill all the opposition and lock down sections of the map to have control over the spawn timers- oh what fun high levels will have then.... Like if you think gating exists now just wait-

[Dagoth]

Intresting suggestion! It would be interesting to play such a character who, after a certain number of death, would die forever.
Main problem for permadeath that server will need some rework for that. Main problem in  permadeath for me - very slow progressing with craft, no potions on sale. But if it can be optional and you receives faster progress in craft and exp for choosing it , i think it can be intresting.

[ladylena]

I like the idea of a number of deaths. That could help reinstate the fear that is supposed to be key to ravenloft. Since the number of deaths would be flat across the board it would be very equal and I could see it being a great addition.

But the original post wasn't about that, it was about higher level in west Barovia