Author Topic: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles  (Read 2279 times)

Chabxxu

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Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« on: October 19, 2022, 01:22:45 PM »
I've been playing in Port-a-Lucine for years now, and one thing that I still have trouble handling are the titles and hwo to properly address people. There are so many different ways to adress someone with a single title in a single conversation that it is quite easily to get lost and look like an idiot while doing so.

Characters who have been living in Dementlieu their whole life and had an education shouldn't have trouble remembering those simple things. Making errors while speaking or writing letters almost make it seem like you are doing it on purpose and doesn't really make much sense IC to me.

I would propose to revamp the way we address nobility in Dementlieu to this: [Nobility title] [Surname].

Sieur de Sauvre
Baron d'Aubry
Vicomte de Renault
Comte Ambroiseux
Duc de Courcillon

It would make it so much easier to remember and also make Port-a-Lucine more accessible and friendly to new players. The IG and OOC knowledge required to play in Port right now is quite high and those title conventions do not help in the slightest. I do think that a small change like that would make it much more enjoyable for everyone playing in Dementlieu and for new people who want to try their hand at it without changing too much of the current lore around them.

Clementine

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2022, 01:37:27 PM »
To reiterate some of my points I brought up when Gabriel's player and I just discussed this: it's a common known cultural understanding that calling someone by their first name, regardless of their social position, is considered deeply personal, and should be avoided in public or with individuals one is not very close with. For this reason, it's always struck me as strange that knighted titles such as Sieur or Dame, (Dame in the true sense, not a courtesy title by marriage.) would go by their first names. I whole heartedly support at the very least an adjustment to make all titles a straightforward "title + last name."

If there's an IC or OOC reason for why we need to separate out one or two titles such as Sieur or Dame, I'm not familiar with it. While DLoo is supposed to be rather complicated IC, it should not be so complicated that it excessively frustrates even a seasoned player.

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2022, 01:51:56 PM »
Perhaps an alternative approach is for players to start including the correct way to address them in their descriptions, if it's more complicated than "Monsieur/Madame/Mademoisellle". Then the choice to know how to correctly address them is driven more by direct RP choices and less by pouring through the forums.
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Dhelindria

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2022, 01:56:50 PM »
I do agree that Sieur / Dame First Name seems odd when compared to the other expected forms of address. In discussing hypotheticals, my PC has commented on the fact that it'd be weird for her to use her husband's first name if he were ever thus recognized, as she doesn't even call him by his first name in public. He is always "Monsieur Rathcore" - never "Aidan."

On the other hand, I feel that learning the intricacies and adhering to a complicated mess of etiquette is a fundamental part of the setting. There are readily available resources that players can utilize if they want to immerse themselves. Navigating that ever-changing maze of how to address someone and who outranks whom is one of the many facets of Dementlieu, and I don't think it's one that needs to change.

Clementine

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2022, 01:58:14 PM »
Perhaps an alternative approach is for players to start including the correct way to address them in their descriptions, if it's more complicated than "Monsieur/Madame/Mademoisellle". Then the choice to know how to correctly address them is driven more by direct RP choices and less by pouring through the forums.

I have zero objections to that, and may add it in to my own current description, but it does not address the root of the problem, nor offer long term solutions since we don't even require a description, much less for it to include someone's proper title and address.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2022, 01:58:21 PM »
When I am playing in Port I follow this guide written by Arawn.

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=46208.msg576270#msg576270

Sometimes I will make a mistake here or there but I don't personally find this particularly difficult after a quick read.



DM Indolence

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2022, 01:59:22 PM »
My personal opinion is that reworking how these titles are used yet again would cause additional confusion. Foremost, however, I've not seen anyone suffer IC ramifications for using the wrong title. At the most it's fuel for ettiquette lesson RP and does help demonstrate familiarity with the titles. When people make small errors, as DMs we largely shrug and move on unless it's a deliberately high stress social scene where the NPCs are finding excuses to shred your decorum and will locate or fabricate one regardless. Making the attempt and demonstrating you're doing so through your RP is far more important than 100% accuracy.

Not a historian, but on the question of why knights are the exception, it seems to be a matter of it being the way it was done, at least in English. It is contradictory and arbitrary, but so is the whole system of nobility, peerage, and decorum in fantasy and in real life.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 02:04:44 PM by DM Indolence »

Clementine

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2022, 02:05:44 PM »
My personal opinion is that reworking how these titles are used yet again would cause additional confusion. Foremost, however, I've not seen anyone suffer IC ramifications for using the wrong title. At the most it's fuel for ettiquette lesson RP and does help demonstrate familiarity with the titles. When people make small errors, as DMs we largely shrug and move on unless it's a deliberately high stress social scene where the NPCs are finding excuses to shred your decorum and will locate or fabricate one regardless. Making the attempt and demonstrating you're doing so through your RP is far more important than 100% accuracy.

I don't disagree with this as an alternative point and it's a fair argument. I will also say, most of the Port DMs have been very OOC accommodating when asked in a tell, 'HEY, HOW DO I ADDRESS THIS PERSON?' and I do appreciate that. :)

(which is my way of saying, if you don't know, and feel your character should know, don't hesitate to ask OOC.)

BlankStare

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2022, 02:06:08 PM »
I enjoy the current conventions. For me having to remember the sometimes-byzantine title rules and name combinations adds a little something to the flavor of the setting. It should be easy to accidentally offend someone in D'loo. That said, I do think adding your title to your description is also a decent idea though.
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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2022, 02:06:41 PM »
Perhaps an alternative approach is for players to start including the correct way to address them in their descriptions

I think this would do the trick

apeppertoo

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2022, 03:53:44 PM »
I prefer the way things work currently and would not want them changed. Like the English language as a whole, there's a lot of rules and exceptions but learning them has been fun and immersive.
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2022, 04:04:03 PM »
It makes sense to me that a specific title is to be tied to a first name rather than a family name. It's an era of hereditary nobility, and using the family name for what will often be a long and convoluted family is bound to be more confusing, not less.

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2022, 04:19:53 PM »
The tying of "Sieur" to the first name is a reflection of British titles, I think. I don't know how it worked in France.

I do know that Alan Sugar (the guy who does The Apprentice - You're Fired in the UK) was Sir Alan after he was knighted; then Lord Sugar when he was made a peer; then Baron Sugar when he was made a Baron.

Obviously he played his cards right with the Council of Brilliance.
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DM Indolence

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2022, 04:22:51 PM »
The tying of "Sieur" to the first name is a reflection of British titles, I think. I don't know how it worked in France.

I do know that Alan Sugar (the guy who does The Apprentice - You're Fired in the UK) was Sir Alan after he was knighted; then Lord Sugar when he was made a peer; then Baron Sugar when he was made a Baron.

Obviously he played his cards right with the Council of Brilliance.

Smells like favoritism to me.

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2022, 05:06:35 PM »
tbf dude founded Amstrad, he should have been made Duc
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2022, 01:13:31 AM »
The tying of "Sieur" to the first name is a reflection of British titles, I think. I don't know how it worked in France.

I do know that Alan Sugar (the guy who does The Apprentice - You're Fired in the UK) was Sir Alan after he was knighted; then Lord Sugar when he was made a peer; then Baron Sugar when he was made a Baron.

Obviously he played his cards right with the Council of Brilliance.

Smells like favoritism to me.


Dementlieu suffers from being given titles initially that reflected a British Peerage, but then later tried to adopt the French style of Nobility. I'll put this down to the simplest level I can, I think; Maybe.

In France, you weren't called by your name or even your Household name. This is also the same for England; Louis de Bourbon was never called Monsieur de Bourbon in his life, nor was Philippe de Bourbon, the Duc d'Orleans, his brother. Louis, as King, was Louis XIV, Monsieur le Roi. Phillippe de Bourbon would be called Philippe by his friends, but Monsieur le Duc and the Duc d'Orleans by anyone who would refer to him formally. Chevaliers would often be referred to as Chevalier de X, Chevalier, or simply, Sieur X. It depends on the setting they're in. The trick is, a Chevalier in informal dialogue is never just, Jean. He's always Sieur Jean, or the Chevalier de X.

The problem PoTM has, is that they've instituted the strange tradition where everyone is just a Chevalier de la République, rather than having something important attached to the name, which cheapens the value of it and means that they can only be called Sieur Jean in distinction from, Sieur Jean Bernard, Chevalier de la République. Traditonally, one would be assigned a title of Knighthood with either the location of their great deed, or more rarely, a tract of land afforded alongside it. Thus is why Alix Sinclair Martineau, when she initially received her titles, was, not Dame Alix, but the Dame d'Estellier; For her tract of land, Estellier, was given with her title. Likewise, if a Chevalier was given a territorial designation, it would be far more recognizeable to them to be known as say, the Chevalier d'Avejan, as Sieur Jacques Boucher was once.

Land is more important in many cases than a title, and the more you can brag about owning land and make other people acknowledge it, the better off you are.

In the English system of Nobility, their Noble assignments are all surrounded to positions of the Royal Family. Thus, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of Norfolk, and so forth have historically been revoked and issued at the King's discretion as befitted his arrangements. However, in the English system of Nobility, they never referred to them in regards to their land, but rather, His Grace, His Grace the Duke of X, etc. They never used a name, because they are being impersonal.

A man who has land, and a title, is more important than the name of his family, and his first name would be a gross overstep. You're supposed to be aloof, disconnected, and pointedly not personal with anyone not in your immediate family. So if you try to just make everyone a title then their surname, you're ignoring the fact that they may or may not own land, and may or may not be better than you.

This is already the case of landless Baronetcies, which are technically an ENGLISH title, I'm looking at you, Dev Team. But if you're a Baronet without land, you're just, Monsieur le Baronet [Surname]

So Monsieur le Baronet de Bernard would be suitable. Or Baronet Johnson, if they don't use a 'De' in their family's name. All other titles beyond Baronet are required to be associated with a tract of land, and that tract of land is infinitely more important than their family names in terms of prestige.

Lion El'Jonson

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2022, 10:20:17 PM »
Frankly this is also just a cooler way to refer to nobility, in my opinion. When I first started playing in Port and I found out titles were phrased 'Monsieur le <title>' I was really disappointed.

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2022, 10:26:30 PM »
It can put a lot of people off wanting to participate in the noble sphere when they think they have to remember all the titles and specific ways of typing it all out. It put me off for a while until I found out that the D-loo discord has players post any unique titles listed in a specific channel there for reference.

Like FDS said, there also isn't much stigma or pushback from players regarding titles or people getting them wrong, and even for NPCs.

However, I think making it "officially" less tedious would be better and more inviting for new people.
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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2022, 07:11:45 PM »
However, I think making it "officially" less tedious would be better and more inviting for new people.

If you apply for a subrace, you have to research your subrace's setting, post an application, and do a lot more corrective work than just playing a Human, Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, or so forth. Building an effective build, requires you to do a non-trivial amount of research and trial and error to avoid hardcore regrets after eight months and finding out your character isn't very good compared to other characters.

The amount of work required to do to learn titles of Nobility in Dementlieu is not very much at all, compared to all of the things required to learn, to play an effective mechanical build, a subrace, or even play as a native to a domain, if you're doing it well.

The only thing adding anachronistic titleage would do is cheapen the experience, in my opinion. It wasn't any harder for me to learn, than say, researching an Outlander character properly before bringing them into Ravenloft. To know their history, their factions, and their faiths from that domain. Or any harder than pulling up a Gazetteer to read about Lamordians, Falkovnians, or otherwise before playing them.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2022, 07:27:30 PM »
It's part of the socialite game.

Being able to play the game is the bar of entry, simplifying it would just let more HM language slot appropriaters worm their way into a society they don't belong in, and cheapens it for those who are already putting in the effort.

Maffa

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2022, 01:11:53 AM »
... you aware there is no other RP available but this in port, yes?


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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2022, 02:21:56 AM »
I have to agree with Maffa. Despite being in favour of not changing the titles because of the way they help in enforcing the Dementlieuse setting, I still strongly believe we are playing Dungeons and Dragons and the focus should be on having fun together. The setting should be useful to set the tone, but the barrier to entry shouldn't be so unforgiving people can't just join back after confirming. Luckily, I never saw the mistitling being used as a barrier to RP.
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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2022, 05:46:17 AM »
If the argument is, "We're playing Dungeons and Dragons," and the research to know a handful of titles from across a single reference sheet is a tough barrier to entry, then I should probably remind everyone here that playing Dungeons and Dragons requires the memorization of an entire system of mechanics, setting information, and roleplay quirks of various classes, dieties, societies, races, and otherwise to be held in the random cache of memory in your head, while you roll dice on the tabletop.

Neverwinter Nights is pretty solid, because it automates a great deal of the hubbub above. However, it just means that there's so much more room to focus on other things, such as the quality of roleplay. For the myriad hours spent in-client, interacting with these things, as opposed to a PnP session of D&D, I'm not sure there should be an even greater crutch on cheapening the experience for everyone involved because someone else wouldn't do their homework.

Dementlieu is an end-game destination. It's not the first location most, if anyone encounters, and it isn't even where new players will naturally want to make their characters born from. It's almost entirely a second playthrough domain where you get a slice and a taste of during your first run through, and you naturally end up there. It's not supposed to have a broad, or open barrier to entry. It doesn't even accommodate sub-10 characters very well, except for veterans who decide they want to do things the interesting way.

Seriously; It's a single sheet of paper, with everything about noble address on it, titles, and any questions you could possibly have about it, if you read the whole paper. Commoners wouldn't be up-and-up on addresses by virtue of their station, so that's an easy pass for them if they want to experience it dipping their toes into the water. If they want to play a Noble, then I'd expect them to put enough time and effort into researching how to play a Noble properly, not lower the bar for them.

So the easy solution is; Have them play a Commoner, who serves a Noble, interacts with a Noble, and surrounds themselves in the setting so they can learn it naturally, if the paper is too much. That's an appropriately low bar to entry in the domain, one that's easy for all-comers, and where their hand is held almost the entire process by their employers. There aren't enough Commoners around, anyways.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 05:48:20 AM by BraveSirRobin »

Maffa

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2022, 07:12:22 AM »
The opening post is literally:

Quote
I've been playing in Port-a-Lucine for years now, and one thing that I still have trouble handling are the titles and hwo [sic] to properly address people.

Learning D&D system is nothing to sneeze at, but brings mechanical advantages across the whole board, indipendently from your goals as a player and character.

This to me seems like an artificial, arbitrary, unrealistic, non-canon, barrier to entry. The fact that historical Port players are very gracious in letting things slide is but only a symptom that this is not that important to uphold as a rule as could be any other in the D&D ruleset such as attack rolls, or stealth checks.


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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2022, 08:00:28 AM »
Maybe I was misunderstood with my simplified post, so I'll use an analogy.

Port-A-Lucine is a casino. There's lots of games to play. Poker is the game all the nobility are playing. If you can't play it well, the other players are happy to benefit and make a mockery of you when you try, feigning acceptance of your inclusion until you make an embarrassment of yourself that you can't recover from, and it's not until you decide you want to become a real player, and learn not just the game but how to read the tells and dance the dance, making your bets etc. that you become one of them.

It's not the only RP available. It's just there for people that like the high-end socialite banter. You can most certainly do theatrics, commoner, underground, gendarme roleplay etc. The titling and naming conventions are for people playing at the poker table.