Suggestion - Soft Level Cap

[SardineTheAncestor]

What if there was a soft level cap in place west of the mist wall in Barovia, bringing characters from 15th to 20th level down to level 14?

• Spell, skill, HP, and BAB progression ends with 14th level
• No feats, ability score increases, or class features earned by reaching level 15 or above
• RP XP continues to accumulate (rewarded only as appropriate to true level)
• Combat XP earned by party is treated as if the capped character is level 14; character only earns as much as their true level would
• MPCs unaffected by the curse, may progress to level 20

There's no catch. It's a mysterious, semi-permanent curse placed upon your character the moment they are both in the area and above level 14.

The only remedy is going back through the mist wall at the Tser Falls. A new feature of the environment to consider when returning to Barovia from the other domains, one that all characters contend with once they reach this level.

It's true that items which drop in other domains would eventually find their way back to Vallaki, but they would now be worn only by characters at 14th level and under.

What would this change improve? What consequences would it have?

Additionally, devs: is it even possible?

I'm not here to sell you on the idea, but I am curious what you think and how you'd react if this change happened.

Disclaimer: poll is not official

[Edward]

What if there was a soft level cap in place west of the mist wall in Barovia, bringing characters from 15th to 20th level down to level 14?

• Spell, skill, and BAB progression ends with 14th level
• No feats, ability score increases, or class features earned by reaching level 15 or above
• MPCs unaffected by the curse, may progress to level 20

There's no catch. It's a mysterious, semi-permanent curse placed upon your character the moment they are both in the area and above level 14.

The only remedy is going back through the mist wall at the Tser Falls. A new feature of the environment to consider when returning to Barovia from the other domains, one that all characters contend with once they reach this level.

It's true that items which drop in other domains would eventually find their way back to Vallaki, but they would now be worn only by characters at 14th level and under.

What would this change improve? What consequences would it have?

Additionally, devs: is it even possible?

I'm not here to sell you on the idea, but I am curious what you think and how you'd react if this change happened.

Disclaimer: poll is not official

This whole idea only furthers the idea of push PC’s to port once they hit 14 and also makes the change of RP exp in Western Barovia obsolete.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I would of course want to see characters at 14th level and up able to gain RP XP while they're still there. It would also be ideal if the XP their party earned was also treated as if they were level 14, allowing them to adventure with those level 10-14 groups that do have a few dungeon destinations in western Barovia, without hindering others' progress.

I should edit the OP to reflect this. I also forgot to mention HP would be capped too...

I believe you are right that some would determine this risk of being caught in danger while depowered would lead to some high levels leaving and never looking back. It would limit those builds that peak later, both limiting lethality and survivability, without a doubt. Those that built to peak earlier would find themselves perhaps pulling ahead in this environment.

However, I believe those who really care about roleplaying in western Barovia would stay, as many factions, monsters, and plots are based in this part of the game world and one would have to make that conscious decision to stay or let go of all of that.

[MAB77]

Additionally, devs: is it even possible?

Speaking on a mechanical level only, it would be possible, but would undoubtedly induce a whole new layer of technical issues and server resource drain. It's best to stay away from these kind of solutions.

[Lion El'Jonson]

Always against this idea. I don't believe high level characters are the problem, but rather disruptive high level characters. I firmly believe that positive player behavior should be encouraged and negative player behavior should be punished, rather than imposing sweeping changes across the board to try and control it. If a high level player is disrespecting AMPC play or sabotaging low level progress, it should be treated like a violation and the player should be addressed personally, if not punished in some way. I'd go as far as to say that high level characters who disrupt Western Barovia particularly badly should be barred from entering the area entirely.

Changes like what's proposed here in my opinion is a statement for the high level players who don't cause trouble: It doesn't matter how much you respect the setting of Western Barovia, you'll suffer the same changes as the ones who don't.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Additionally, devs: is it even possible?

Speaking on a mechanical level only, it would be possible, but would undoubtedly induce a whole new layer of technical issues and server resource drain. It's best to stay away from these kind of solutions.

I see. Well, the idea has run its course as a suggestion then and now exists only as a hypothetical. I suppose as long as the thread remains civil it won't do any harm

edit:

Always against this idea. I don't believe high level characters are the problem, but rather disruptive high level characters. I firmly believe that positive player behavior should be encouraged and negative player behavior should be punished, rather than imposing sweeping changes across the board to try and control it. If a high level player is disrespecting AMPC play or sabotaging low level progress, it should be treated like a violation and the player should be addressed personally, if not punished in some way. I'd go as far as to say that high level characters who disrupt Western Barovia particularly badly should be barred from entering the area entirely.

Changes like what's proposed here in my opinion is a statement for the high level players who don't cause trouble: It doesn't matter how much you respect the setting of Western Barovia, you'll suffer the same changes as the ones who don't.

I suppose I exist on the opposite end of this spectrum. Perhaps I'm the only one who sees it this way, but I don't see it as an OOC punishment, just a potential game mechanic which limits the power level of characters in Vallaki and its surrounding environs. It's less about curtailing bad behaviour which could happen at any level, and setting a new threshold for the playing field to be leveled at.

I post this suggestion having had the idea since I played a high level character in Vallaki a long time ago, trying to reconcile pulling punches with staying IC. I didn't like the idea that I could be dragged into a conflict which I vastly outleveled. It didn't feel right that simply playing for longer or dungeoning more than other players should mean I get to decide so much for potentially so many other players; my perception never was that levels were a reward for good RP. They just kind of exist. What if no one could outlevel the conflict, slowing the pace of things in Vallaki down for everyone? The reward, rather than the punishment, is an environment where power levels don't get too out of hand.

edit: To elaborate a little more on my position - I would also like to say I don't think your view is the wrong one. In a perfect world, yes, those who are willing to put good RP front and center can be trusted with whatever power level they choose. However, I think in a different kind of perfect world, the power level just doesn't get too high.

[mappinger]

I suppose I exist on the opposite end of this spectrum. Perhaps I'm the only one who sees it this way, but I don't see it as an OOC punishment, just a potential game mechanic which limits the power level of characters in Vallaki and its surrounding environs. It's less about curtailing bad behaviour which could happen at any level, and setting a new threshold for the playing field to be leveled at.

I post this suggestion having had the idea since I played a high level character in Vallaki a long time ago, trying to reconcile pulling punches with staying IC. I didn't like the idea that I could be dragged into a conflict which I vastly outleveled. It didn't feel right that simply playing for longer or dungeoning more than other players should mean I get to decide so much for potentially so many other players; my perception never was that levels were a reward for good RP. They just kind of exist. What if no one could outlevel the conflict, slowing the pace of things in Vallaki down for everyone? The reward, rather than the punishment, is an environment where power levels don't get too out of hand.

I took your suggestion in the way you intended it and understand and value the consideration. I love a great deal about the server; I built a character well suited for Ravenloft, just poorly suited for Port play and lost interest in logging in for extended periods sitting at the dreadful Mist Camp hoping for a Perfidus/Sithicus group. I rather enjoyed Barovia as a more traditional environment for surviving the things in the night, but outleveled it, which your brainstorming was attempting to address.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I suppose I exist on the opposite end of this spectrum. Perhaps I'm the only one who sees it this way, but I don't see it as an OOC punishment, just a potential game mechanic which limits the power level of characters in Vallaki and its surrounding environs. It's less about curtailing bad behaviour which could happen at any level, and setting a new threshold for the playing field to be leveled at.

I post this suggestion having had the idea since I played a high level character in Vallaki a long time ago, trying to reconcile pulling punches with staying IC. I didn't like the idea that I could be dragged into a conflict which I vastly outleveled. It didn't feel right that simply playing for longer or dungeoning more than other players should mean I get to decide so much for potentially so many other players; my perception never was that levels were a reward for good RP. They just kind of exist. What if no one could outlevel the conflict, slowing the pace of things in Vallaki down for everyone? The reward, rather than the punishment, is an environment where power levels don't get too out of hand.

I took your suggestion in the way you intended it and understand and value the consideration. I love a great deal about the server; I built a character well suited for Ravenloft, just poorly suited for Port play and lost interest in logging in for extended periods sitting at the dreadful Mist Camp hoping for a Perfidus/Sithicus group. I rather enjoyed Barovia as a more traditional environment for surviving the things in the night, but outleveled it, which your brainstorming was attempting to address.

Thank you, I felt exactly this way with not just one but several of my characters, and I knew there were others because we've had this conversation on the forums before, about how high levels can feel left out too. Many have expressed this sentiment that all they want to do is use their roleplay experience for good; they want to mentor others and have their character teach lessons to others, play up fear of the night, and use their staying power to try and show newer RPers what the setting's all about, without fighting all their battles for them so to speak, or being able to shrug off just about any problem that comes up. I believe that this can be achieved without being 15th level or higher, not only that, but we'd even be better off if other players could not act on temptations to ask the high levels to solve every inconvenience with their powers, and DMs do not need to avoid high levels or adjust for them.

In my eyes, this change threatens no one with anything, it just prevents people from outleveling the RP they're enjoying. No need to manually hold your levelup or keep enchanting down, just stick with what feels natural. Sure, they could come back from other domains with secrets about Barovia, but they also return with the knowledge that an unknown curse will prevent them from being at their best. I think it could be an example of a gameplay mechanic that does well as a narrative device, since characters who do go back are risking a lot more, and the environment it might create lends well to the oppressive atmosphere that Ravenloft is all about.

[Maffa]

Maybe you could consider a delevel tool, or a Xp voluntary cap tool?

[Murd]

I think something that doesn't take a ton of resources server sided, that still limits power somewhat wouldn't be the worst of ideas.

Could do something like prevent 8th and 9th level spells from being casted, for example.

[Maragrouf]

Maybe you could consider a delevel tool, or a Xp voluntary cap tool?

We kind of already have the "XP Cap tool". It's called : Not leveling up. Sure, it's frustrating to see that shiny Level Up picture on your portrait and not leveling up as you would normally, but I don't recall any rule preventing you from staying level 6 if that's what you feel like. As for Deleveling... well... You can always use the respawn option once in a while, if you really want to lose a few levels just to stay under 14. But do keep in mind that willingly dying to do so is considered : A - Cheesing, and B - a Suicide, which is "punisheable" by Closure.

[Skelni]

In the great echo of balance and all that - Things should be added before they're taken away.

I don't even like high level stuff, but to deny someone all their hard work by saying "hey if you ever come here, you're gonna be weak again" probably won't make anyone interested in returning in the first place.

Beyond that, it's just the marring issue that this probably isn't too feasible on a technical side, as the devs have stated many times before. Believe me, if I had my way, level 14 would be the soft cap universally, everywhere. But there's no sense in saying someone can't play somewhere because they're too high a level - People know not to ruin stuff in Barovia and those who don't, get slapped, seen it happen before.

Things are working fine I think. It all comes down to respecting the environment and other people. Always has. Don't ownzone an MPC just because you can etc. etc.

[TacticalFerret]

We are all (for the most part) adults here and are more than capable of making sound judgement calls for the benefit of everyone. We needn't waste resources on the proverbial boogeymen that hunt down the MPCs in Barovia to add notches to their belts. That's what Dementlieu is for.  /s

In all seriousness, though. Adding these systems would feel like a slap to the face to anyone who has moderated their gameplay responsibly while in these zones. Gonna be a hard no from me. It's better to allow the players to self-moderate up to a certain point and deal with the issues as they pop up as they are uncommon.

[ladylena]

This could be a neat idea for a custom domain for the server perhaps making it part of a cursed land, but for the area of Barovia, when the rp exp was just readded back after years of being removed, asking to bring back a cap level for the area is a little odd.

[zDark Shadowz]

I'd just ask for the relevel crystal to have a delevel option.

If some people feel like it'd result in "wasted time" then the lost experience could be stored for enchanting only once someone is back to the level required for enchanting.

So a level 16+ delevels down to 12 to play in Barovia, any levels lost above the enchanting required level has a percentage (20 to 100% its arbitrary) put into an XP bank, that can't be used until the player is back to level 14+ again, and then only for  enchanting

People already use enchanting to delevel as it is. It'd be an enchanting delevel but without the immediate benefit of using the newly enchanted items.

EDIT: Depending on how its implemented, it may eventually become beneficial for roleplayers to remain roleplaying at a lower level on purpose.

[Hemlock]

I wouldn't like this change and I agree that if higher level PCs behaving badly is the issue, then perhaps there are better in-game alternatives. I think there's IC reasons for low level characters to interact with higher level PCs, even if it just the exposure to what could be. Also, my PCs don't go to Port.

[KovosDatch]

Just remember they gave reduced RPXP in Western Barovia. This seems really counterintuitive to the change they just made. Especially when you have certain factions based out of Barovia like the garda, MLs, Kinship, and Vallaki Drain rp.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I think my proposal has been misread as a punishment to high levels who stay in Barovia, even those who stay out of conflict entirely. I did not make this thread to point fingers at high levels. I have been there, and this isn't an attempt at self-flagellation. I think it would be more protective of the domain. I pitched the idea so that high levels could come back to RP with lower levels, and have to self moderate a whole lot less because the game handles their power level for them. They can stay in their faction without tilting things too far in their favour, adventure with parties of an appropriate level without nerfing their XP gains, and all that good stuff.

I see nothing but universal benefit, maybe that's just me, and I think if Vallaki was almost in a "permanent NCE" where the MPCs could be several levels above the most powerful characters on average, the dynamic would change a lot for the better. I can see why people would want to get to that power level in Vallaki but I feel like if you can't use your powers or go against your policy of self-moderation, it starts to feel a little forced after a certain point.

[Regular Ordinary Birdman]

I would recommend a few things instead of this...

1) Hazlan, Har'akir, and possibly Ghastria are focused on in the next few updates... these locations would benefit from official factions, banks, complete crafting places, quests/bounties, rentals (this would honestly be the most effective thing as it encourages player driven RP provided these rentals are used responsibly. I would recommend for Hazlan that only Mulan can own rentals.), dye dummies with all the dyes as opposed to just like 5 or 10 colors, and maybe a few more areas for RP.

2) Greater potential consequences be placed upon Good/Neutral aligned 'team good' type characters. As it stands there is 0 hard risks when entering player driven conflicts while antagonist characters can easily be put at the whims of local law enforcement. Villainy has everything to lose and can do so at the drop of a hat as it is. It goes against the lore first and foremost as Ravenloft is a domain that generally caters towards and encourages evil play. The Dark powers seek to develop dark hearts and corrupt good ones. This should be reflected IG imho. It is really crummy to have your bad guy meant to terrorize low levels or engage in skirmishes be utterly crushed by level 16 druids and wizards who will either just pin you down with magic or just time stop and end any threat before it ever happens. Is it horror if literal Superman is there to protect you effortlessly?

3) East Barovia dungeons are boosted drastically to help further cement this divide just a little more.

That's just my ideas. The 'curse' is a pretty neat idea but sounds like a pain to implement. It also does not directly solve the issues around higher levels farming low level dungeons or higher levels engaging in conflicts where they will out crush the monster or villain the other player has. Something that would directly solve the issue (My first idea would push characters towards other part of the game so they don't feel like they must choose between Barovia or Port, my second idea is to give Evil alignment for low levels a greater sense of security while they work out their plans afterall; villains drive story, and my third just to sort of keep distinctions clear. Additionally, West Barovia should be a viable RP option as well.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I would recommend a few things instead of this...

1) Hazlan, Har'akir, and possibly Ghastria are focused on in the next few updates... these locations would benefit from official factions, banks, complete crafting places, quests/bounties, rentals (this would honestly be the most effective thing as it encourages player driven RP provided these rentals are used responsibly. I would recommend for Hazlan that only Mulan can own rentals.), dye dummies with all the dyes as opposed to just like 5 or 10 colors, and maybe a few more areas for RP.

2) Greater potential consequences be placed upon Good/Neutral aligned 'team good' type characters. As it stands there is 0 hard risks when entering player driven conflicts while antagonist characters can easily be put at the whims of local law enforcement. Villainy has everything to lose and can do so at the drop of a hat as it is. It goes against the lore first and foremost as Ravenloft is a domain that generally caters towards and encourages evil play. The Dark powers seek to develop dark hearts and corrupt good ones. This should be reflected IG imho. It is really crummy to have your bad guy meant to terrorize low levels or engage in skirmishes be utterly crushed by level 16 druids and wizards who will either just pin you down with magic or just time stop and end any threat before it ever happens. Is it horror if literal Superman is there to protect you effortlessly?

3) East Barovia dungeons are boosted drastically to help further cement this divide just a little more.

That's just my ideas. The 'curse' is a pretty neat idea but sounds like a pain to implement. It also does not directly solve the issues around higher levels farming low level dungeons or higher levels engaging in conflicts where they will out crush the monster or villain the other player has. Something that would directly solve the issue (My first idea would push characters towards other part of the game so they don't feel like they must choose between Barovia or Port, my second idea is to give Evil alignment for low levels a greater sense of security while they work out their plans afterall; villains drive story, and my third just to sort of keep distinctions clear. Additionally, West Barovia should be a viable RP option as well.

Generally speaking, I agree with this sentiment. It's probably no surprise to anyone that the most fun I had was playing a lower level during a time when many high level MPCs and villains were around, outnumbering and outgunning the heroes. This created strife within the heroic factions and led to interesting RP worth coming back to for months. There was real friction. Every time the sun went down it felt like something crazy was going to happen. The characters involved would change sides in moments of desperation or just give up, frequent skirmishes meant people had a chance to show their stuff, it was great. Having played a (reluctant) hero for most of this time I can safely say it always felt better to not be on top of the world.

The only time I felt that way after reaching a higher level was when there was a DM involved, or players on both sides of the conflict were willing to put RP first and focus on the drama of the story, rather than just kill each other. I became something of an alt hopper to try and enjoy that low level experience again in bite sized portions, but then Port was the place to be and I just didn't want to go most of the time because it doesn't speak to me like Barovia does. We also have a timer now for MPCs that we did not have back then, so I think the average level of AMPCs is much lower, and there are now so many players that reaching a higher level is generally much smoother.

I suppose that most of this stuff being a lot of overhead is a recurring theme; this feature is unfeasible due to potential bugs or performance problems, and really consistently getting Vallaki to feel right for everyone means an insane amount of DM effort. Their efforts can even be increased inadvertently when they need to find a way to make things fair for both high and low levels.

This is kind of a rambly reply but before I get it too long, tldr; I agree, the continued development of other areas gives villains new homes and this has already proven to have some positive results on their development. Part of this suggestion is, at the heart, that other places in the module are not necessarily that attractive to stay around, and I would like for Barovia to be a place people choose not just because it's the only place or the first place but because it's the place they want to be, rather than where all roads lead, if that makes sense. While I was inactive for a long time I did eventually learn that faction bases were revamped or added and it was really cool to see that. Continuing in that direction would definitely be an A+ move from the devs, it's well within their power to lay the groundwork for new places besides just Vallaki that people want to RP in.

[cheese tornado]

Don't ownzone an MPC just because you can etc. etc.

^This. I kinda think MPCs should be immune to all damage, forcing any defeat of them to be done in writing and text only. So many MPCs are so heavily power built and PvP Trigger Happy with tunnel vision that I'm totally delighted to meet one that isn't. Mechanical threat doesn't impress me, it deflates me. But not to derail this topic...

I voted No because I don't think it would make sense. A level 20 wizard wouldn't be able to explain why he suddenly can't cast his well-studied-for 8th and 9th level spells. Or, as an alternative to the power differences? We might add a Attraction feature to these high circle spells? Something that flags DMs that Mr John Wizard has used a very powerful spell recently, and may have attracted attention of.. some darker forces... But this would only work for casters, how to keep that level 20 paladin from wrecking? I dunno, it seems to fly in the face of "we can't tell you how to RP", but in some sense, we have to, at least to keep Barovia's themes of night survival and general oppressiveness in proportion as intended...

[SardineTheAncestor]

Well, it's not telling people how to RP, it's just putting a game mechanic in; level drains, feeblemind, ability drains and so on are already well understood game mechanics. I'm of the belief that limitations can grant more freedom in some contexts, and even if this mysterious curse can't be immediately explained by the first level 15+ spellcaster to hazard a guess, that doesn't mean its potential to positively influence roleplay has passed.

[cheese tornado]

Well, it's not telling people how to RP, it's just putting a game mechanic in; level drains, feeblemind, ability drains and so on are already well understood game mechanics. I'm of the belief that limitations can grant more freedom in some contexts, and even if this mysterious curse can't be immediately explained by the first level 15+ spellcaster to hazard a guess, that doesn't mean its potential to positively influence roleplay has passed.

True in some regards, but I feel malluses tend to be interpreted that way, and cause a depressive effect. You could self-impose a level cap? you don't have to level up beyond 14th yourself.

[Nemesis 24]

This is a four to one vote of no.  At this point I think it is safe to say the majority do not want this, and energy would be better spent elsewhere.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Probably. I guess if anyone else wants to chat in this thread about it then I will continue to oblige, like I said, I didn't make this to call people out, just talk about an idea. Many other threads exist on the premise of player behaviour, this one is its own thing.

The reason I bring it up now, in light of the recent mist wall change, is because from my point of view, I would personally like to be able to return to Vallaki at any time I log in but would rather the consequence isn't having to wait up to an hour or more in an empty Tser Pool, but rather that the area has a maximum level and players can be automatically adjusted to fit that. I would have wanted that from the start. Years ago I would have gladly traded my higher levels away while in the area if it meant I could participate along the same lines as everyone else without continually rolling new alts and more or less retiring characters once I get to level 14-16 like I have been.

Maybe in a few months there will be other changes, perhaps along the lines of consequences for returning after a certain level, since the devs have said they're monitoring the situation. I think these create more RP than simply barring people off, but only with a waiting period. I think there's only so much that time sinks can do in regards to creating dire environments that people react to and roleplay around, they're better at creating inconvenience.

I would encourage anyone with alternative ideas to post their own threads so if they are well received, they're easy to find again. I don't think it's impossible that a good idea will eventually be pitched if the brainstorming continues, open discussion can't hurt.