Feedback on Open lock on crafted clothes.

[Edward]

I think a three tier cap would probably address it pretty well.

Skill ranks: 1 to 4, capped at Lock DC 40

Skill ranks: 5 to 9, capped at Lock DC 50

Skill ranks: 10+: no cap.

The numbers are just suggestions, it will probably need fine-tuning.

I think the same should be done with disable trap, only to be fair. Since wizard is the only class with enough points for this, it would allow them to disable traps aswell which would be quite good.

This leaves the classes capable of getting items down to 3, which is fantastic. This basically forces players to depend on these classes if they want to get loot from dungeons which is amazing.

[Anarcoplayba]

And if it goes all the way (which I hope won't) I hope an automatic relevel is granted, for I'll have some pcs half useless.

[Edward]

And if it goes all the way (which I hope won't) I hope an automatic relevel is granted, for I'll have some pcs half useless.

I think this would fair, all wizard rogue and beguiler players should get a full remake to be able to take full advantage of the changes the dev team are going to make.

[Anarcoplayba]

And if it goes all the way (which I hope won't) I hope an automatic relevel is granted, for I'll have some pcs half useless.

I think this would fair, all wizard rogue and beguiler players should get a full remake to be able to take full advantage of the changes the dev team are going to make.

I am looking at my cleric, with five hard invested ranks in open lock. Any character with cross class OL should get a chance to recover their (now lost) investment. As you mentioned, bards also have reasons to invest on it. And voodans too.

[Skelni]

And if it goes all the way (which I hope won't) I hope an automatic relevel is granted, for I'll have some pcs half useless.

I think this would fair, all wizard rogue and beguiler players should get a full remake to be able to take full advantage of the changes the dev team are going to make.

I am looking at my cleric, with five hard invested ranks in open lock. Any character with cross class OL should get a chance to recover their (now lost) investment. As you mentioned, bards also have reasons to invest on it. And voodans too.

I do think it only fair that anyone who could cross class it then would get a refund... But the issue there is that, like, anyone could.

I'm a bit skeptic on making Open Lock a tier system. While I like the idea. Isn't this just going to hamfist people into playing Rogue and Beguiler more? The one rank into 50 Open Lock skill checks is absurd and whatnot, but it does take investment to get there in the first place, and if you have caps on how many hard ranks you have in the skill now, only people who can dedicate the points into it (and im looking at all the "optimal" builds that take intelligence and whatnot) are the only things that won't be affected by this. Sort of just punishing everyone else in the process.

I'm just a little worried this'll just funnel design choices more and more.

[Edward]

And if it goes all the way (which I hope won't) I hope an automatic relevel is granted, for I'll have some pcs half useless.

I think this would fair, all wizard rogue and beguiler players should get a full remake to be able to take full advantage of the changes the dev team are going to make.

I am looking at my cleric, with five hard invested ranks in open lock. Any character with cross class OL should get a chance to recover their (now lost) investment. As you mentioned, bards also have reasons to invest on it. And voodans too.

I do think it only fair that anyone who could cross class it then would get a refund... But the issue there is that, like, anyone could.

I'm a bit skeptic on making Open Lock a tier system. While I like the idea. Isn't this just going to hamfist people into playing Rogue and Beguiler more? The one rank into 50 Open Lock skill checks is absurd and whatnot, but it does take investment to get there in the first place, and if you have caps on how many hard ranks you have in the skill now, only people who can dedicate the points into it (and im looking at all the "optimal" builds that take intelligence and whatnot) are the only things that won't be affected by this. Sort of just punishing everyone else in the process.

I'm just a little worried this'll just funnel design choices more and more.

It seems like an oversight by the dev team, there is no way Mab added open lock to tailoring with the intention of helping classes that aren’t rogue or beguiler access loot, I think he knows himself that Beguiler, Wizard and Rogue should be uncapped open lock users. Bards and whatnot have no place selling equipment, the economy should be purely ruled by these 3 classes.

[Anarcoplayba]

And if it goes all the way (which I hope won't) I hope an automatic relevel is granted, for I'll have some pcs half useless.

I think this would fair, all wizard rogue and beguiler players should get a full remake to be able to take full advantage of the changes the dev team are going to make.

I am looking at my cleric, with five hard invested ranks in open lock. Any character with cross class OL should get a chance to recover their (now lost) investment. As you mentioned, bards also have reasons to invest on it. And voodans too.

I do think it only fair that anyone who could cross class it then would get a refund... But the issue there is that, like, anyone could.

I'm a bit skeptic on making Open Lock a tier system. While I like the idea. Isn't this just going to hamfist people into playing Rogue and Beguiler more? The one rank into 50 Open Lock skill checks is absurd and whatnot, but it does take investment to get there in the first place, and if you have caps on how many hard ranks you have in the skill now, only people who can dedicate the points into it (and im looking at all the "optimal" builds that take intelligence and whatnot) are the only things that won't be affected by this. Sort of just punishing everyone else in the process.

I'm just a little worried this'll just funnel design choices more and more.

It seems like an oversight by the dev team, there is no way Mab added open lock to tailoring with the intention of helping classes that aren’t rogue or beguiler access loot, I think he knows himself that Beguiler, Wizard and Rogue should be uncapped open lock users. Bards and whatnot have no place selling equipment, the economy should be purely ruled by these 3 classes.

I do not understand why a class that has appraise as class skill should not have access to loot.

[Anarcoplayba]

And if it goes all the way (which I hope won't) I hope an automatic relevel is granted, for I'll have some pcs half useless.

I think this would fair, all wizard rogue and beguiler players should get a full remake to be able to take full advantage of the changes the dev team are going to make.

I am looking at my cleric, with five hard invested ranks in open lock. Any character with cross class OL should get a chance to recover their (now lost) investment. As you mentioned, bards also have reasons to invest on it. And voodans too.

I do think it only fair that anyone who could cross class it then would get a refund... But the issue there is that, like, anyone could.

I'm a bit skeptic on making Open Lock a tier system. While I like the idea. Isn't this just going to hamfist people into playing Rogue and Beguiler more? The one rank into 50 Open Lock skill checks is absurd and whatnot, but it does take investment to get there in the first place, and if you have caps on how many hard ranks you have in the skill now, only people who can dedicate the points into it (and im looking at all the "optimal" builds that take intelligence and whatnot) are the only things that won't be affected by this. Sort of just punishing everyone else in the process.

I'm just a little worried this'll just funnel design choices more and more.

I issued my opinion already and will try to not repeat it, but I can clearly picture the following:

1) lock open lock under skill/class requirements.
2) see parties lacking rogues, ol, dt (even more).
3) see another increase in the dip rogue/beguiler.
4) dipped builds lose the end game class features, leading to an increase in the power gap and the requests for nerfing combat forms and 9th circle spells.

[zDark Shadowz]

Open lock & disable trap clothes puts less value on acquiring equipment otherwise gatekept by existing ninjalooters or faction only and allows for more diverse parties.

On the extreme end of open lock DCs, end game players were already opening things anyway. DC 58 isn't high for a fully investing wizard when their skill focus + death slaad + knock is doing it.

Gatekeeping open lock DCs behind class lowers party diversity and lets ninjalooters charge higher prices for things only low and mid level players are after because "no one else" is getting it anymore.

Similarly this is why rare items are only traded for rare items, money means nothing at those levels, and who can get those rare items? Rich and powerful stay rich and powerful for "being the right class" while poor and mid levels are scrounging for scraps for longer because no one wants to sell them the looted gear for something as trivial as money.

It's a literal class divide in more than one sense of the word.

The open lock rank gatekeeping idea is already implemented somewhat with the nature of thieves tools, compare a person with 1 open lock rank with someone with 10, if they both used +10 thieves tools, the person with 1 open lock only goes to 2 open lock, the person with 10 uses the full 10. A +18 advantage for investment.

[Maffa]

good luck ninjalooting barrows and malthor.

my beguiler often jokes about he's a man of love because he'd be hard pressed by five gremishkas, and im level 14. I have no other recourse than the one trick i can do. yes i can sneak and ninjaloot, if there are no truesight enemies.

If a class is needed, more people would play it. if it's useless then no one will. I am sure everyone can see how many mages, warmages, warlocks, voodan and hexes are around.

[Edward]

good luck ninjalooting barrows and malthor.

my beguiler often jokes about he's a man of love because he'd be hard pressed by five gremishkas, and im level 14. I have no other recourse than the one trick i can do. yes i can sneak and ninjaloot, if there are no truesight enemies.

If a class is needed, more people would play it. if it's useless then no one will. I am sure everyone can see how many mages, warmages, warlocks, voodan and hexes are around.

I made a tutorial on how to ninjaloot Perfidus, naked, as a beguiler. It’s very simple, all you need is level 18 and timestop, beguiler can open locks and disable traps in timestop. If you start running out of timestop you can just cast another one and continue looting.

[Evendur]

good luck ninjalooting barrows and malthor.

my beguiler often jokes about he's a man of love because he'd be hard pressed by five gremishkas, and im level 14. I have no other recourse than the one trick i can do. yes i can sneak and ninjaloot, if there are no truesight enemies.

If a class is needed, more people would play it. if it's useless then no one will. I am sure everyone can see how many mages, warmages, warlocks, voodan and hexes are around.

I made a tutorial on how to ninjaloot Perfidus, naked, as a beguiler. It’s very simple, all you need is level 18 and timestop, beguiler can open locks and disable traps in timestop. If you start running out of timestop you can just cast another one and continue looting.

Interesting. My first thought on how to counter this: Make it impossible to cast time stop while time stop is active and make Malthor and possibly other casters able to use counter spell.

[apeppertoo]

good luck ninjalooting barrows and malthor.

my beguiler often jokes about he's a man of love because he'd be hard pressed by five gremishkas, and im level 14. I have no other recourse than the one trick i can do. yes i can sneak and ninjaloot, if there are no truesight enemies.

If a class is needed, more people would play it. if it's useless then no one will. I am sure everyone can see how many mages, warmages, warlocks, voodan and hexes are around.

I made a tutorial on how to ninjaloot Perfidus, naked, as a beguiler. It’s very simple, all you need is level 18 and timestop, beguiler can open locks and disable traps in timestop. If you start running out of timestop you can just cast another one and continue looting.

Interesting. My first thought on how to counter this: Make it impossible to cast time stop while time stop is active and make Malthor and possibly other casters able to use counter spell.

Here's my counter thought: take time stop away from beguilers rather than ruin the spell (further) for sorcerers.

[Zyemeth]

Agreed. Time Stop doesn't really serve the RP of Beguiler well in my opinion. However being able to cast like a Cat's Grace or Fox Cunning would make a lot of sense.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Counter-counter thought: people using this thread to start Class wars is really getting old.

[apeppertoo]

Counter-counter thought: people using this thread to start Class wars is really getting old.

I was being flippant with my last post, yes, but I'm growing irritated at the trend of desiring to punish reasonable players because of outliers.

[BraveSirRobin]

[MAB77]

Get back on the track please. Be excellent to each other and don't post if you have nothing constructive to contribute.

[Rocket]

It seems like an oversight by the dev team, there is no way Mab added open lock to tailoring with the intention of helping classes that aren’t rogue or beguiler access loot, I think he knows himself that Beguiler, Wizard and Rogue should be uncapped open lock users. Bards and whatnot have no place selling equipment, the economy should be purely ruled by these 3 classes.

I strongly disagree. Now this is less so to do with making certain classes best at lockpicking versus other classes who should come in second. (I agree classes with open lock as a class skill should excel in open lock)
It is more about what the goal should be for who has power in the economy and why. Do we want to give so much power to a certain few and what ramifcations does that have.

What you are suggesting will boil down to solo/ninja looters who hoard all the treasure with monopoly boosted prices. That is what ruling the economy means. The rich get richer.
The goal should be, treasure is awarded to those who gather friends and overcome challenges together.
By being a lockpicker, you offer the highly desirable utility to your group, you will help your group - or friends grow.

If the server caters to ninjalooters, than less of the above will happen. (this is another segway to redesigning content so ninjalooting is deterred)

Lastly,
I am very confused by the statement, Bards have no place selling equipment. Bards who are typically charisma focused, have sociable and persuasive demeanor would do well as a trader. They obviously have existed in the past.  (correction, so appraise is INT based, but i have seen many times a bard who skilled up appraise and the trader feats)
Though this really means who are we to say can't be a trader?

[BraveSirRobin]

Appraise is an Intelligence based skill. Not Charisma, technically speaking.

[MatticusCaesar]

At the risk of having a thousand rotten heads of lettuce tossed my way, I tend to agree with a much earlier post by Dardonas.

I think the upper echelons of pickable locks (and frankly, disarmable traps as well) should remain solely in the domain of rogues & crypt raiders (also rogue-like familiars (pixie? others?) should a caster choose to keep one of those).

I did like the other presented idea of capping the DC of a lock/trap that can be opened.  Something along these lines, maybe, to expand upon the original presentation:

Rogue or Crypt Raider: free reign over locks & traps if they have the skill, gear, etc.

Anyone else with Open Lock or Disable Trap as a Class Skill (beguiler, assassin, monster hunter?):
Raw Ranks in Skill     Max DC
1-5                           20
6-10                         30
11-15                        40
16+                          50

Anyone else with Open Lock or Disable Trap as a Cross-Class Skill: 
Raw Ranks in Skill     Max DC
1-5                           20
6-10                         30
11+                          35

Those numbers don't have to be exactly what I have above, but I think this makes rogues much more attractive again.  The "rogue dip," multi-class option is pretty common so many characters would still fit into the rogue category anyway.


But on the original question:  I don't really have a problem with open lock on certain clothes.  I think it just represents a specialized garment you had made to hold lockpicks and such

[Anarcoplayba]

One thing not being mentioned is that open lock classes (rogue, crypt raider, monster hunter, etc.) Already excel in open lock, comparatively.

My level 10 crypt raider already opens, without sweat locks my level 16 wizard needs one rest of preparation and help to open. The cross class investment is awful and should not be overlooked.

[Zyemeth]

If the goal of server design is to limit locks to just rogue archetypes then all lockpicking gear should be removed and then all DCs lowered to a max of 40ish so only full rank invested characters can ever hit them.

[Cody]

It seems like an oversight by the dev team, there is no way Mab added open lock to tailoring with the intention of helping classes that aren’t rogue or beguiler access loot, I think he knows himself that Beguiler, Wizard and Rogue should be uncapped open lock users. Bards and whatnot have no place selling equipment, the economy should be purely ruled by these 3 classes.

I strongly disagree. Now this is less so to do with making certain classes best at lockpicking versus other classes who should come in second. (I agree classes with open lock as a class skill should excel in open lock)
It is more about what the goal should be for who has power in the economy and why. Do we want to give so much power to a certain few and what ramifcations does that have.

What you are suggesting will boil down to solo/ninja looters who hoard all the treasure with monopoly boosted prices. That is what ruling the economy means. The rich get richer.
The goal should be, treasure is awarded to those who gather friends and overcome challenges together.
By being a lockpicker, you offer the highly desirable utility to your group, you will help your group - or friends grow.

If the server caters to ninjalooters, than less of the above will happen. (this is another segway to redesigning content so ninjalooting is deterred)

Lastly,
I am very confused by the statement, Bards have no place selling equipment. Bards who are typically charisma focused, have sociable and persuasive demeanor would do well as a trader. They obviously have existed in the past.

I believe that the ninjalooting practice is a good thing allowing for people to get their hands on equipment that would otherwise be fought over through d100 checks and require more future dungeon grinds to find it again (then even more d100 rolls). Loot dividing can turn quickly toxic in gathered parties.

I am still in favor though of the idea of making hard locked containers and things only crackable to classes favored for them, and to make them the obvious go to ninjalooters instead of pure classed wizards.

edit
Any changes here definitely won't be making monopolizing and prices worse than they already are. As they're already pretty terrible and non ninjas automatically set prices higher than is reasonable in hopes of massive profit.

[Anarcoplayba]

Not so easily implemented solution and that would take some effort from de developers: how about class locked puzzles/doors/dungeons.

Put a secret passage in harakir only unlockable by crypt raider. A session in the sewera in port only unlockable by grimetrekker. Put a grove only navigated by druids and rangers, a tower unlockable by arcane classes. Make rogues being able to see those areas. This will give the thematic classes the feeling of being special without locking contentes or reward from people.

Giving people alternatives to solve puzzles (locks and traps) allow more people to to more things. Creating gates end up dividing the playerbase and adding hardships to the not so easy task of finding a dependable and reliable group. It is not reasonable ask for an investment of five ranks of multiclass (at least) besides the obvious and mandatory skill ranks to access game contente.