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Author Topic: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse  (Read 681 times)

BraveSirRobin

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The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« on: September 23, 2022, 08:27:54 AM »
Short and sweet. There should be a way to give Dementlieuse Natives access to WP: Flintlock and WP: Musket on character creation, similar to how Elves and Dwarves get access to Longsword/Longbow and Waraxe on creation. It's culturally appropriate for them, and it's not exotic for them. It takes less time to train a man to use a musket than it does to teach him to use a bow or a crossbow, historically speaking.

It's a nice flavor bit that I think would be cool. Is it possible? I don't foresee it as being ECL-worthy.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2022, 05:59:26 PM »
no idea what this entails code wise, but makes sense for them to have this one exception out of all the exotics. at least the martials should, it's not something every person born in dementlieu know how to manage
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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2022, 07:09:29 PM »
The point of the human bonus feat to account for this kinds of things. I imagine, you could create racial feats for certain sub groups, to give them proficiencies, akin to class feats that give certain proficiencies.

but that seems like a rather bit of a headache, rather then just using the bonus feat, to account for being Dementlieuse

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2022, 07:32:03 PM »
guns being tied to the exotic feat is clearly a gameplay consideration given their potential power
i imagine that giving one group of natives free access to them but not others would imbalance the setting in a way that it wasn't before

also, this would give exotic feat to all dloo chars, since the way favored weapon choice for favored soul works is based on just giving you the required proficiency (martial/exotic) rather than a single weapon's proficiency (since that would take a LOT of feats) and this likely would work in the same way
and that wouldn't really be fair to other natives, would it?
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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2022, 07:41:01 PM »
I do think gameplay balance consideration is the crux here pretty much. Yeah, the Dloo guys are more likely to understand and know how to use firearms. But it's still locked behind a feat because hey, it's strong stuff.

We may as well ask why don't all farmers know how to attack with a scythe as well.
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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2022, 07:55:41 PM »
If Port people get free access to said feats, other natives should get access to feats like the Akiri getting access to heat resistant feats, Barovians getting some form of hardiness feat, etc etc.

It opens up a whole can of worms.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2022, 07:58:43 PM »
I think Herkles posted something earlier in the PotM discord that showed that, in 2nd edition, PnP Dementlieuse have access to the firearm proficiency. 
 
I think if there is a way to just give out firearm proficiency sans the entire exotic weapon proficiency it should be a consideration.

There is precedence in selective proficiencies based on the selected subrace.  Star elves, for instance, do not get normal elven proficiencies.

And I'd suggest we not make this an anti "Port player" thread, nobody is saying that other natives shouldn't get bonuses.  We already do, to some extent, give out bonuses to natives such as Abber Nomads and Half-Vistani. Other natives have select bonuses as well.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 08:00:30 PM by Dardonas »

remnar

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2022, 08:15:23 PM »
And I'd suggest we not make this an anti "Port player" thread, nobody is saying that other natives shouldn't get bonuses.  We already do, to some extent, give out bonuses to natives such as Abber Nomads and Half-Vistani. Other natives have select bonuses as well.

there's no reason to bring up being an anti-port player thread, friend, unless you want it to become one
they clearly meant 'port people' since it's hard to spell dementilouese

that said, i did test favored soul and it gives exotic prof if you take an exotic weapon, which means it's likely impossible in the current set up to give just gun proficiency
star elves can have elf removed since elf is it's own proficiency set (that is also baked into items in base game)
exotic prof is a big part of many builds so it would be unbalanced to give it for free! lot of dementilouis paladins and sword/board characters would appear, i imagine
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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2022, 08:36:46 PM »
I think if we were to consider something like this, I think we'd need to do it in a holistic fashion- coming up with stuff for several background. That's not really a priority for us ATM but it's not something entirely out there.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2022, 08:45:43 PM »
If Port people get free access to said feats, other natives should get access to feats like the Akiri getting access to heat resistant feats, Barovians getting some form of hardiness feat, etc etc.

It opens up a whole can of worms.


I wouldn't say that. The Akiri aren't any more immune to the heat, than other human beings, but they culturally dress to survive it. There is clothing in Har'Akir that provides the bonuses that the Akiri benefit from in the sun. Much similar to the fact that Arabians are not some how physiologically more resistant to the desert heat than, say, Europeans, but they're far more used to surviving it. The methods that they use to survive it can be replicated fairly accurately, between carrying water and wearing clothing that allows them to sweat and cool themselves down.

That comparison doesn't really translate too well to the notion of 'Firearms' being an 'Exotic' weapon. Exoticism is a relative concept, just as Elves and Longsword, Dwarves with Waraxes, and so son and so forth. That isn't something they're just born to do, it's a cultural thing. We know that culturally, Europeans who were raised around firearms could use them with relative proficiency by adulthood, but when the Europeans went to Japan to teach the Japanese how to fire muskets to supply their civil war, that it took weeks, and months to get the Japanese peasantry to understand, and use a firearm properly.

So, it's not that Dementlieuse get access to Weapon Proficiency: Exotic. It's just those specific weapons, and as Dardonas posted, and as Herkles posted in Discord; In 2e Ravenloft, they did receive this bonus already. It was that discussion which inspired me to post the suggestion. So it's already supported by PnP source material, without need for an erroneous discussion about how it would be potentially imbalanced, which in reality; It's for flavor and roleplay of the nationality.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2022, 08:59:06 PM »
Longsword is not an exotic weapon yet most classes don't know how to use it. Just because it's not unfamiliar to them I don't think all of them should have the feat. Maybe it can be considered among the martial weapons for them? Like a fighter from dloo could also start with musket proficiency.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2022, 08:59:57 PM »
And I'd suggest we not make this an anti "Port player" thread, nobody is saying that other natives shouldn't get bonuses.  We already do, to some extent, give out bonuses to natives such as Abber Nomads and Half-Vistani. Other natives have select bonuses as well.

there's no reason to bring up being an anti-port player thread, friend, unless you want it to become one
they clearly meant 'port people' since it's hard to spell dementilouese

that said, i did test favored soul and it gives exotic prof if you take an exotic weapon, which means it's likely impossible in the current set up to give just gun proficiency
star elves can have elf removed since elf is it's own proficiency set (that is also baked into items in base game)
exotic prof is a big part of many builds so it would be unbalanced to give it for free! lot of dementilouis paladins and sword/board characters would appear, i imagine

This. If it is opened up to one race/class on the server, we could argue that many more deserve similar feats. Valenar elves should receive it, for example, for their crazy two sided bladed weapons. Etc. It opens up a can of worms.

And also yes, I am too lazy to spell out D-loo. Short hand as "Port people."

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2022, 09:18:56 PM »
And I'd suggest we not make this an anti "Port player" thread, nobody is saying that other natives shouldn't get bonuses.  We already do, to some extent, give out bonuses to natives such as Abber Nomads and Half-Vistani. Other natives have select bonuses as well.

there's no reason to bring up being an anti-port player thread, friend, unless you want it to become one
they clearly meant 'port people' since it's hard to spell dementilouese

that said, i did test favored soul and it gives exotic prof if you take an exotic weapon, which means it's likely impossible in the current set up to give just gun proficiency
star elves can have elf removed since elf is it's own proficiency set (that is also baked into items in base game)
exotic prof is a big part of many builds so it would be unbalanced to give it for free! lot of dementilouis paladins and sword/board characters would appear, i imagine

This. If it is opened up to one race/class on the server, we could argue that many more deserve similar feats. Valenar elves should receive it, for example, for their crazy two sided bladed weapons. Etc. It opens up a can of worms.

And also yes, I am too lazy to spell out D-loo. Short hand as "Port people."

If Valenar Elves have specific weapon access to double-sided swords in their source material, then I agree. We should try to accurately represent races/subraces/etc as best we can on the server. Dementlieuse, in the 2nd Edition Ravenloft PnP source material from which they derive, and firearms are introduced into the game, have native knowledge of how they work on a basic level that people from other domains do not.

I agree wholeheartedly. Taking a broad-spectrum Exotic feat to try to accurately represent what the source material already gave you is bunk. More power to Valenar Elves, assuming they were written to receive the proficiency.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2022, 10:52:17 PM »
If the argument is for accuracy, we should absolutely not give Dementlieuse PCs free firearm proficiency. We use 3E and 3.5, not 2E. Gaz III, Pg. 23 specifically outlines that Exotic Weapon Profeciency (Firearms) is only a recommended feat for Dementlieuse born PCs, along with a host of other non-freebies like Iron Will, Muse, and Weapon Finesse. As someone who plays his share of Dementlieuse born PCs, this change would be great for giving me a free feat, but is objectively against 3E's write up.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2022, 12:31:02 AM »
I think if we were to consider something like this, I think we'd need to do it in a holistic fashion- coming up with stuff for several background. That's not really a priority for us ATM but it's not something entirely out there.

This is a cool idea; spending one or both of the +1 Skill upgrades at character creation seems like a fair trade to get Proficiency in Firearms.
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William Roberts

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2022, 01:01:41 AM »
To even be considered, it would have to be limited to firearms, rather than the Exotic Feat itself.

I think game balance in this instance (and most of the time) should trump "realism" considerations, and even in terms of realism, we live in a gun-present society in the US without the average person being proficient in their use. To be sure, they are easier to become relatively skilled with than with a rapier, say. Yet the chance of picking up a gun and hurting yourself or someone else by accident is much higher, too. Although it's possible to misclick and shoot an ally directly in POTM, without any training I doubt very much a Port citizen could pick up a firearm and risk shooting *through* friends into enemies (not to mention that misses continue on IRL until they hit something). In other words, it may be realistic that anyone can equip a firearm, but firearm use in POTM is easier and not realistic in other ways. (I don't think 1600s firearms are as easy to equip and use as their modern equivalents.)

So back to game balance, are firearms under-powered and not worth a feat investment? Then make them not exotic for everyone. 

Are Port characters under-powered? How? Presumably they don't have to invest the encumbrance armor requires most PCs, nor do they then have to enchant it. (If Port PCs are wearing armor and enchanting it, then the argument that they should gain firearm proficiency is undermined because they are not RPing as someone who "naturally" lives in a firearm culture.)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 01:05:58 AM by William Roberts »


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Maffa

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2022, 02:25:52 AM »
The job of a warrior is to be proficient with tools of war.
Handling a firearm is not intrinsically harder than a sword or a bow.
Culturally speaking, dementlieu lies a few feet off  the end of the spectrum allowed for character creation, more often than not it looks like pre revolutionary France, but I would say it's comfortably within the late 1600's. And it makes sense that dementlieuse people seeking to hurt others would rely on guns.
Now I would hope this won't evolve in thugs by the pier going around with pieces in their waistband, but the problem lies with the domain which brings the literal gun to a swordfight...
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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2022, 02:40:25 AM »
I doubt this will actually be added the module, but...
If the average Dementileuse gets flintlock/musket proficiency, then other natives from renaissance domains should get them; atleast Lamordians and Zherisians.
Honestly though, no way the average exploited worker is gonna have the funds to get themselves a Gearling pistol.
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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2022, 03:02:21 AM »
I would argue that the average worker is not a warrior so they have no business handling guns.
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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2022, 03:11:30 AM »
Indolence's response covers any need for further discussion.  Firearm proficiency is covered in the 3e books, which is what we follow, not 2e.  William Robert's response goes further in illuminating why it is a flawed principle.  I don't think this needs to be delved into further.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2022, 06:59:57 AM »
To even be considered, it would have to be limited to firearms, rather than the Exotic Feat itself.

I think game balance in this instance (and most of the time) should trump "realism" considerations, and even in terms of realism, we live in a gun-present society in the US without the average person being proficient in their use. To be sure, they are easier to become relatively skilled with than with a rapier, say. Yet the chance of picking up a gun and hurting yourself or someone else by accident is much higher, too. Although it's possible to misclick and shoot an ally directly in POTM, without any training I doubt very much a Port citizen could pick up a firearm and risk shooting *through* friends into enemies (not to mention that misses continue on IRL until they hit something). In other words, it may be realistic that anyone can equip a firearm, but firearm use in POTM is easier and not realistic in other ways. (I don't think 1600s firearms are as easy to equip and use as their modern equivalents.)

So back to game balance, are firearms under-powered and not worth a feat investment? Then make them not exotic for everyone. 

Are Port characters under-powered? How? Presumably they don't have to invest the encumbrance armor requires most PCs, nor do they then have to enchant it. (If Port PCs are wearing armor and enchanting it, then the argument that they should gain firearm proficiency is undermined because they are not RPing as someone who "naturally" lives in a firearm culture.)

The argument that even citizens in the United States aren't universally proficient with firearms falls apart when you consider that, yes, maybe Commoners wouldn't? But anyone with any class that has Martial Weapons Proficiency would. I would also ask why every living Dwarf is proficient with a Dwarven Waraxe, which is exotic to all but Dwarves, and why Elves are all proficient with Longswords, Rapiers and Longbows (the latter of which, is actually far more difficult to learn to use than a firearm) and so on, and so forth.

I don't neccessarily believe that providing WF: Firearms would make Dementlieuse characters any more Overpowered than Dwarves, or Elves. In-fact, I somewhat gain the impression that if Dwarves and Elves hadn't already received those proficiencies, and we weren't already used to the idea that they received them, there would be an intense argument about why giving them those proficiencies would upset the balance of the game.

I could see it now; Elves have Keen Senses, Hardiness vs. Enchantsmens, +2 Bonus to Listen, Search and Spot checks, and Low-light vision, +2 DEX, -2 CON, access to Rapier, Longbow, Longsword, and Shortbow proficiencies all those things for FREE. The cheek of it!

And Dwarves? Oh, God, don't even get me started. They're the unsung heroes of NWN.

They get +2 Search underground, Darkvision which is better than low-light vision, +2 vs. Poisons, +2 vs all saving throws against spells, +1 Attack bonus vs. Orcs, and Goblinoids, +4 AC bonus vs Giant, and +2 Lore check. They get +2 CON which is a major buff more-or-less any class in the game, and only a -2 Charisma penalty, which is useless for anything but a handful of casting classes!

And then they want to get access to a 1d10 x3 one-handed Battleaxe for free? The cheek of it! If they're playing as a martial class, they can afford the exotic proficiency. Unheard of.

And what do HUMANS get? Standard stats, a bonus feat, and 4 extra skill points? Really, everyone could just have that, and re-invest it as they please.


There's my satire, for the day. I thought it would be thematically appropriate for Dementlieuse to have better access to them, even if it would cost them somewhere else. Because, what self-respecting Dementlieuse wouldn't know how to shoot a gun before they learned the complexities of swordplay, to use a bow, or to cast a spell? After-all, those are all things which are infinitely more complicated to achieve or accomplish, and learning how to use a firearm can be done in a fraction of that time. Thus why no-one fought in the melee except for bayonet charges after basically the late 1600's, after the flintlock mechanism became popular. The time period Dementlieu emulates.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 07:03:47 AM by BraveSirRobin »

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2022, 07:22:06 AM »

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2022, 07:29:33 AM »
emulates.

Emulates.  Not replicate.

I'm not sure if you realized this, when making this remark, but that doesn't mean what you must think it means. To concede that it emulates, not replicates, means you concede that it matches it, if not surpasses it.


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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2022, 07:47:33 AM »
Perhaps I should have used the word 'imitate' then but I was quoting yourself.  Either way, the point yet stands - Port does not, in fact, seek to emulate or replicate revolutionary France.  It draws inspiration from it, but it should not be used as the fallback for accuracy and for realism in the game.  There are so many other things that would need to change if that is so.  The only thing that needs to be drawn from is the Gazetteer, which as Indolence has said, has already covered this.  Trying to use the real world equivalence as the bench mark is the same tired argument that's been used a thousand times before and it was wrong then, and its wrong now.  We have a source material and its not that.

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2022, 07:56:45 AM »
Perhaps I should have used the word 'imitate' then but I was quoting yourself.  Either way, the point yet stands - Port does not, in fact, seek to emulate or replicate revolutionary France.  It draws inspiration from it, but it should not be used as the fallback for accuracy and for realism in the game.  There are so many other things that would need to change if that is so.  The only thing that needs to be drawn from is the Gazetteer, which as Indolence has said, has already covered this.  Trying to use the real world equivalence as the bench mark is the same tired argument that's been used a thousand times before and it was wrong then, and its wrong now.  We have a source material and its not that.

Whilst true, everything which the society in Port, especially the rules surrounding Nobility, Aristocratic Privilege, Laws enforcing no-armor via issuing fines, and a breadth of other things have no basis in the core rules, either. So it certainly isn't limited to drawing inspiration only so far as what was written, and it furthermore is also worth noting, that there is some logic that has to be followed surrounding the implementation of certain things.

The argument made about if.. Firearms were too weak to be worth being Exotic, then they should be normal for everyone, and vice versa as was stated earlier, is invalidated when you look at Dwarves, and the Exotic weapon, Dwarven Waraxe. The only difference is, that was written into the base game, and no-one turns a blind eye to it.

When you look at what is needed to use firearms proficiently, as in, to any real effect; You need something to the name of six separate feats, including Exotic. Holding one, without the presence of Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Delven's Maneuver, Gearling's Loading Technique, or Careful Handling wouldn't upset the balance very much at all.

Compare that to what is needed to use a Dwarven Waraxe with proficiency, you just need Exotic, WF, and Imp. Crit. Practically speaking, a Bastard Sword isn't any harder to use than a Longsword. A Dwarven Waraxe isn't any harder to use than a Battleaxe. Exotic weapons proficiency is for the odd, the inane, the distant and the strange.

Firearms just aren't any of those, to the Dementlieuse, and Firearms, even old Flintlocks, aren't hard to use. That's why they became popular. The only reason they might be difficult to use is if the concept were foreign entirely to someone, and that would make it exotic.

By comparison, I think anyone in this modern world could pick up a pistol, and figure out how to shoot it in a moment of crisis.

So while I may've been incorrect in citing 2nd Edition rules, I do not think the idea of presenting the opportunity to have a thematic ease so that one isn't locked out of holding a firearm in Dementlieu unless they invest a feat into Exotic proficiency is one that is absurd, or beyond countenance.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 08:00:45 AM by BraveSirRobin »