Author Topic: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse  (Read 1962 times)

Nemesis 24

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2022, 08:04:02 AM »
Much like someone choosing to play an ECL or OCR restricted race, so too is it a choice to play a Dementlieu character and take the required firearms feats if they so choose.  It's part and parcel, much like many other circumstances found in game.  The offset of the price paid is the inclusion by racial inclination towards avenues of roleplay in Port that might otherwise be more difficult to access for individuals of other demographics, amongst other things.  But in the end, it remains a choice, much like any other one might make when creating their character.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2022, 08:11:27 AM »
Much like someone choosing to play an ECL or OCR restricted race, so too is it a choice to play a Dementlieu character and take the required firearms feats if they so choose.  It's part and parcel, much like many other circumstances found in game.  The offset of the price paid is the inclusion by racial inclination towards avenues of roleplay in Port that might otherwise be more difficult to access for individuals of other demographics, amongst other things.  But in the end, it remains a choice, much like any other one might make when creating their character.

Arguing the status quo against a proposed change isn't an argument in of itself. It is, currently; I've argued that I do not foresee such a change in such a culturally distinct area of the server to be anything leaning towards unbalanced, when compared to other established races that have similar such benefits, on top of a myriad of other very advantageous benefits.

You seem incredibly invested to shut this conversation down, and I'm not sure why, but if you have a counter-point to any of the points that I've made, other than citing that it doesn't currently exist, I'm happy to hear it.

Nemesis 24

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2022, 08:25:52 AM »
The arguments have been already made.  Honestly I was placing my support behind them, but as it stands, the collected arguments that I firmly agree with are as follows;

1.  It opens a massive can of worms for every domain and racial background to get their own special things to balance it out, as was mentioned.  While these are not stated to be things that said races get, nor is firearm proficiency something Dementlieu citizens are simply born having ability with.

2.  Modern firearm proficiency and 1600's firearms are very different things with very different applications, requiring a great deal more practice and understanding, much of which is only viable by practice.

3.  This ability you request is not part of any of the 3.5 rules, which is what the server tries to adhere to, with variations on occasion.  This one is dissimilar to those because there is an existing concession that is covered in the Gazetteer recommending the feat be taken.  As there is an existing precedent, the situation is already covered.  Solutions and changes that have come in have never, in my memory, run in counter or opposition to what is written - they cover that which isn't, instead.

4.  Dementlieu draws inspiration from revolutionary France.  It is not direct copy, of the circumsances, history, and culture of the period, nor does it mean that firearms were in every single household in France at the time either, nor does it mean everyone was able to pick one up and use it, immediately.  It has a great deal in common but differences do exist and are understandable, ranging from the minor to the extreme.  To argue for something because of real life standards is willfully ignoring this fact. 

5.  Martial weapon proficiency is not simple weapon proficiency, just as exotic is not.  Simple weapons are weapons that are ones that can be picked up and used immediately, to lesser or greater effect.  Races having access to exotic and martial weapons are a reflection of those races and the background they have, correct - but they do not have the same balance issues implied with firearms.  A dwarven wizard picking up a dwarven waraxe isn't going to do much with it.  A Dementlieuse wizard picking up a pistol 'is' going to do a great deal with the massive damage touch attack weapon, that they can use from range. 

I think that's covered most of it, and really am not sure why I threw my hat into this debate, because personally I view this issue as pretty nonsensical.  The reasons why its not implemented has been covered already.  These are more than enough.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2022, 08:41:57 AM »
The arguments have been already made.  Honestly I was placing my support behind them, but as it stands, the collected arguments that I firmly agree with are as follows;

1.  It opens a massive can of worms for every domain and racial background to get their own special things to balance it out, as was mentioned.  While these are not stated to be things that said races get, nor is firearm proficiency something Dementlieu citizens are simply born having ability with.

2.  Modern firearm proficiency and 1600's firearms are very different things with very different applications, requiring a great deal more practice and understanding, much of which is only viable by practice.

3.  This ability you request is not part of any of the 3.5 rules, which is what the server tries to adhere to, with variations on occasion.  This one is dissimilar to those because there is an existing concession that is covered in the Gazetteer recommending the feat be taken.  As there is an existing precedent, the situation is already covered.  Solutions and changes that have come in have never, in my memory, run in counter or opposition to what is written - they cover that which isn't, instead.

4.  Dementlieu draws inspiration from revolutionary France.  It is not direct copy, of the circumsances, history, and culture of the period, nor does it mean that firearms were in every single household in France at the time either, nor does it mean everyone was able to pick one up and use it, immediately.  It has a great deal in common but differences do exist and are understandable, ranging from the minor to the extreme.  To argue for something because of real life standards is willfully ignoring this fact. 

5.  Martial weapon proficiency is not simple weapon proficiency, just as exotic is not.  Simple weapons are weapons that are ones that can be picked up and used immediately, to lesser or greater effect.  Races having access to exotic and martial weapons are a reflection of those races and the background they have, correct - but they do not have the same balance issues implied with firearms.  A dwarven wizard picking up a dwarven waraxe isn't going to do much with it.  A Dementlieuse wizard picking up a pistol 'is' going to do a great deal with the massive damage touch attack weapon, that they can use from range. 

I think that's covered most of it, and really am not sure why I threw my hat into this debate, because personally I view this issue as pretty nonsensical.  The reasons why its not implemented has been covered already.  These are more than enough.


1. It could be, but I would argue that it should only apply where the difference in culture is severe enough that it warrants it. Dementlieu is a culture shock to the rest of the server, to the point that it is often overlooked as being Gothic Horror to the uninitiated because of its sheer, alien nature. It is for this domain, that we have implemented firearms at all. That being said, not every Dwarf is born with the ability to use a Dwarven Waraxe, nor is every Elf inherently born with the ability to use a Rapier, Longsword, Longbow, or Shortbow. They are, however, assumed to have been raised in conditions in which this would be a normal part of their lives. Dwarven Holds and Elven Conclaves both have Militias which these characters in their long life spans, are expected to have served in at one point or another, regardless of their class. For the Dementlieuse, one could assume that they have been around, and likely have at least seen how these weapons are used to understand it. Not to mention, the numerous levies, and wars over the years which have actively conscripted Dementlieuse people into fighting in them, in which they use, Muskets.

2. I never cited modern firearms proficiency, but I did refer to it in response to when it was cited towards me by William. Historically accurate, firearms proficiencies with muskets took less than a week to use, and was so widespread and easy that every settler and rural agrarian who existed utilized a firearm over a crossbow, or bow of any form when and if able. It was extremely easy to use, and a very simple process. But difficult to master. This would make fine and dandy sense, considering that utilizing a firearm more than once every three rounds requires no less than three additional feats beyond the simple proficiency, and then to do so safely, requires a fourth.

3. It is not part of the rules, but does have variations. I'm arguing against the precedent in favor of flavor, and even open to the idea that there be some weaknesses exchanged for it that would make thematic sense for the Dementlieuse.

4. Dementlieu does not use Revolutionary France as an analogue. That is a server design choice. Dementlieu is a renaissance-era domain, which is placed firmly in the 1600's, whereas Revolutionary France is from the late 1700's, leading into the early 1800's, and the Napoleonic Era is the early 1800's. I would have greatly argued that including napoleonic-style guards, social policies, political concepts and other such eccentricities would have been inappropriate wholesale, but that's what they chose to do. However, great and many elements have been drawn from France's History, up to and including Noble succession by the male lineage, and a host of other laws that are cited, and specifically unique to France, as opposed to England's system of Nobility, which allows women far more latitude in the political sphere, among many other things.

5. A Wizard picking up a firearm, ten years ago, would have had an unusual advantage. A Wizard picking up and using a firearm without feats for reloading, for careful handling, for improved critical and weapon focus will not achieve anything more than he could use a scroll or a spell for in the modern sphere of PoTM. The concept of the Gun-Wizard has been done in the distant past, but now is an antiquated relic that can be better replicated by Bards, who have received numerous spells they do not have access to in any prescribed sourcebook, and is another decision made that has no precedent, that many others also try to argue is an imbalance.

In order to pick up and use a firearm with any real proficiency, you need several more feats. Otherwise, depending on the degree and value of the firearm, you may kill yourself with it, which a Wizard is very likely to do, or suffer a -4 penalty from a safe-use firearm such as the expensive one Gearling sells.

Said Wizard would need three turns to reload, or to carry a large number of 5lb weapons on his person he doesn't have the carry space for, to fire a weapon every (presumably) two rounds, for as many True Strikes as he has.

Similarly, a Dwarven Wizard could achieve the same, by self-buffing himself and using a Waraxe. We make the concession because it's thematically appropriate.


EDIT: Think the Three Musketeers, for the era Dementlieu should canonically be in. Not the French Republic/Napoleon's France.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 08:57:55 AM by BraveSirRobin »

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2022, 11:42:47 AM »
I don't think d'loo natives are any more exceptional than any other native human. Therefore inclusion of a feat or proficiency based on that doesn't seem to make any sense.

From a balance standpoint, it sets them apart and gives a significant advantage over non-d'loo humans. As a dev said, they'd have to do a really wholistic approach which seems like a monster task.

Zyemeth

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2022, 10:01:10 PM »
I would be all for this change as it makes sense but to a counter-point I would say taking DLoo as your origin should also remove Heavy Armor proficiency even if you play a class that grants it as their style of military and combat would have little precedent of providing training to fight while in said variety of armor. The characters of course could still choose to take the feat but it's outside the norm and exotic to them. Generally laughed at and frowned upon.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2022, 10:45:27 PM »
I would be all for this change as it makes sense but to a counter-point I would say taking DLoo as your origin should also remove Heavy Armor proficiency even if you play a class that grants it as their style of military and combat would have little precedent of providing training to fight while in said variety of armor. The characters of course could still choose to take the feat but it's outside the norm and exotic to them. Generally laughed at and frowned upon.

That depends on the part of Dementlieu you hail from. If you're from the East, then they wear Platemail because they fight Falkovnians, and the Gendarmerie Nationale also offers Platemail options last I played. It's not accepted in the West, but in the East, they fight Falkovnians.


I don't think d'loo natives are any more exceptional than any other native human. Therefore inclusion of a feat or proficiency based on that doesn't seem to make any sense.

From a balance standpoint, it sets them apart and gives a significant advantage over non-d'loo humans. As a dev said, they'd have to do a really wholistic approach which seems like a monster task.

They come from a culture where firearms are more common than longbows. What makes a Dwarf more exceptional than anyone else, to have a Dwarven Waraxe proficiency? If anything, I'd argue that a firearm should simply be, 'Martial,' to them, but there's no way to script that.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 10:48:37 PM by BraveSirRobin »

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2022, 11:29:22 PM »
Without going on a rant about history, I am actually for this idea. Under a certain caveat...

Character must come from one of the following domains: Blaustein, Borca, Darkon, Dementlieu, Falkovnia(?), Invidia, Lamordia, Mordent, Paridon, Richemulot, Souragne, and possibly Nova Vaasa (I believe I read somewhere that Vaasans would make musket holsters from their leather, and I think it is server cannon that Falkovnia has adopted some of the technology of their enemies)

Additionally; the character in question not only must have that background but also have their first two class levels belong to a class that automatically gives Weapon Proficiency: Martial (Not that you have to take this Feat between levels 1 and 2 that wouldn't work; but you have to have a class that gives it to you automatically, and Barbarian will NOT work for this).

My reasoning behind this is that for those locations using a firearm would fall under 'military training' which is what Martial Weapon Proficiency is supposed represent military training of some variety.

Cody

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2022, 11:36:49 PM »
Based on what already has been said about the 3e gazeteer. Dementlieu humans are not qualifying to be so different they're their own subrace and receive a few free talents. I don't believe this change is going to happen.

Humans with their free extra feat will just have to use it for culture flavor if the player wants to do so.




BraveSirRobin

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2022, 12:16:16 AM »
Based on what already has been said about the 3e gazeteer. Dementlieu humans are not qualifying to be so different they're their own subrace and receive a few free talents. I don't believe this change is going to happen.

Humans with their free extra feat will just have to use it for culture flavor if the player wants to do so.


People would've said the same about Bards, before they received the slew of spells for their class that they don't receive in the 3.5e handbooks.

Without going on a rant about history, I am actually for this idea. Under a certain caveat...

Character must come from one of the following domains: Blaustein, Borca, Darkon, Dementlieu, Falkovnia(?), Invidia, Lamordia, Mordent, Paridon, Richemulot, Souragne, and possibly Nova Vaasa (I believe I read somewhere that Vaasans would make musket holsters from their leather, and I think it is server cannon that Falkovnia has adopted some of the technology of their enemies)

Additionally; the character in question not only must have that background but also have their first two class levels belong to a class that automatically gives Weapon Proficiency: Martial (Not that you have to take this Feat between levels 1 and 2 that wouldn't work; but you have to have a class that gives it to you automatically, and Barbarian will NOT work for this).

My reasoning behind this is that for those locations using a firearm would fall under 'military training' which is what Martial Weapon Proficiency is supposed represent military training of some variety.

Darkon isn't a Renaissance-era culture. It's mostly feudal. Falkovnia bans the usage of firearms for its military, more-or-less outlawed by Vlad Drakov. Paridon could get away with it. Richemulot might, although it's a chivalric culture, AKA 1400's, where the firearms are cannons on the end of sticks; So that's a toss-up. Souragne is a Chivalric culture, so they have the same obscurity of old, archaic hand-canons on sticks that Richemulot has. Invidia has arquebuses, but they are rarer in use. Lamordia passes, they're techier than Dementlieu. Mordent also passes. Blaustein is technically an early medieval culture, and therefore does not independently utilize firearms on a civil level, but certainly their corsairs could, per the sourcebooks. Borca is also a Chivalric-level civilization.

So of those mentioned, only Paridon, Dementlieu, and Lamordia are Renaissance-era cultures where firearms in the form Dementlieu has them, would be sufficiently integrated in their cultures, to warrant it. The rest do not use them, or are using very bulky, unwieldy firearms that specialized military units would use, not the average citizen.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 12:22:07 AM by BraveSirRobin »

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2022, 01:23:35 AM »
Borca is renaissance IMO. They could qualify.


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zDark Shadowz

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2022, 04:53:38 AM »
If the argument is for accuracy, we should absolutely not give Dementlieuse PCs free firearm proficiency. We use 3E and 3.5, not 2E. Gaz III, Pg. 23 specifically outlines that Exotic Weapon Profeciency (Firearms) is only a recommended feat for Dementlieuse born PCs, along with a host of other non-freebies like Iron Will, Muse, and Weapon Finesse. As someone who plays his share of Dementlieuse born PCs, this change would be great for giving me a free feat, but is objectively against 3E's write up.

Seems appropriate. The seven bonus feats Ravenloft characters get (if remaining pure class) compared to default NWN and D&D, is meant to be used for taking more character-defining feats, of which the level 2 bonus feat that you could take Weapon Proficiency: Exotic with is one of those.

No character is denied starting off with firearms training unless it is self-denial from not taking it.

Arguing whether someone can use a weapon, and whether they would be expected to use it efficiently in round per round clockwork actions, is more of an issue with the weapon proficiency feat system as a whole. Longer lived races have their weapon proficiencies because they begin play with many decades of training already, which is why Star Elves *don't* have the weapon proficiency due to their specific origins.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 05:10:02 AM by zDark Shadowz »

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2022, 11:14:07 AM »
Longsword is not an exotic weapon yet most classes don't know how to use it. Just because it's not unfamiliar to them I don't think all of them should have the feat. Maybe it can be considered among the martial weapons for them? Like a fighter from dloo could also start with musket proficiency.

A fighter from D loo could always just take the feat for exotic at level one though.

I also don’t like the argument that “guns are around them.”  Most people cant just pick up and shoot a firearm, accurately, without training.  You see videos all the time of people holding rifles incorrectly and dislocating their shoulder, hitting themself in the face, etc.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 11:25:33 AM by myrddraal »

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2022, 01:06:34 PM »
I don't think d'loo natives are any more exceptional than any other native human. Therefore inclusion of a feat or proficiency based on that doesn't seem to make any sense.

From a balance standpoint, it sets them apart and gives a significant advantage over non-d'loo humans. As a dev said, they'd have to do a really wholistic approach which seems like a monster task.

They come from a culture where firearms are more common than longbows. What makes a Dwarf more exceptional than anyone else, to have a Dwarven Waraxe proficiency? If anything, I'd argue that a firearm should simply be, 'Martial,' to them, but there's no way to script that.

Are you trying to imply that a commoner, a worker, and a prim and proper noble are all going to be martially trained? Furthermore, they're going to train in a flintlock or musket over the much more popular rapier?  Dementleiu is a country divided by wealth. The wealthy are focused on status, decorum, and etiquette.  While many of them will be martially trained, I would argue that many of them wouldn't. Then take the poor and destitute working class. Where are they going to learn to use a firearm? Where are they going to get the funds to buy one for that matter?

When you look at NPC's around Dementleiu, you see maybe a handful of firearms being carried, but primarily, you're seeing the rapier.  Now, if you were to argue that D'loo natives should have proficiency in the rapier, I might agree. But a firearm is a much more potent, dangerous, and hard to get weapon.  It's not the wild west or the US where guns are commonplace. It's a setting where firearms have come into fashion more recently and thus, not everyone will have access to them. Their might be more firearms than bows, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of crossbows to firearms is much closer. I'd be willing to bet that the number of thin bladed weapons far exceeds the number of firearms.

Firearms are exotic because in the setting in which we play, they are exotic. In Dementlieu they might be less exotic, but they are still not as commonplace as you'd make them out to be.

Of course, I could be wrong on this, and I invite you to provide material that refutes what I believe to be true. I'm not so prideful as be unwilling to be educated. I simply imagine stories like The Three Musketeers and I simply don't see everyone and their brother waving around a gun in those stories.

On the subject of dwarves, I see it as simple flavor. A dwarven war axe is better than a battle-axe, there's no doubt about that. However, that weapon is specifically thematic to the dwarven race. Elves get proficiencies with a handful of traditionally elven themed weapons, halflings get bonuses to throwing type weapons (including slings), humans learn quicker and therefore gain more skills and feats than any other race. Isn't that enough?

MAB77

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2022, 03:03:32 PM »
I'd like to remind everyone that humans get a free feat and bonus skill points. Those first represent that humans are quick learners of course, but also their regional specificity. If it is important for your Dementlieuse to be proficient with firearms (and it won't be for all of them), then this is what the free feat is meant for.

It is not our intent to add any bonuses that would make a human from a given place to have any marginal advantage compared to humans from anywhere else. (OCR excepted)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 03:05:29 PM by MAB77 »
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2022, 05:10:31 PM »
Longsword is not an exotic weapon yet most classes don't know how to use it. Just because it's not unfamiliar to them I don't think all of them should have the feat. Maybe it can be considered among the martial weapons for them? Like a fighter from dloo could also start with musket proficiency.

A fighter from D loo could always just take the feat for exotic at level one though.

I also don’t like the argument that “guns are around them.”  Most people cant just pick up and shoot a firearm, accurately, without training.  You see videos all the time of people holding rifles incorrectly and dislocating their shoulder, hitting themself in the face, etc.

The same argument can be had for Crossbows, and Longbows. Wouldn't you argue that it's easier to pick up and use a firearm, than it is to loose an arrow or properly operate a crossbow? Yet, they're martial. The only reason firearms are exotic is because they're unusual, and newfangled weapons that are, exotic. However, it's not exotic to those who are raised around them.

The same argument can apply to Dwarves, and their Waraxe proficiency, at almost every turn. It's a cultural thing.


I don't think d'loo natives are any more exceptional than any other native human. Therefore inclusion of a feat or proficiency based on that doesn't seem to make any sense.

From a balance standpoint, it sets them apart and gives a significant advantage over non-d'loo humans. As a dev said, they'd have to do a really wholistic approach which seems like a monster task.

They come from a culture where firearms are more common than longbows. What makes a Dwarf more exceptional than anyone else, to have a Dwarven Waraxe proficiency? If anything, I'd argue that a firearm should simply be, 'Martial,' to them, but there's no way to script that.

Are you trying to imply that a commoner, a worker, and a prim and proper noble are all going to be martially trained? Furthermore, they're going to train in a flintlock or musket over the much more popular rapier?  Dementleiu is a country divided by wealth. The wealthy are focused on status, decorum, and etiquette.  While many of them will be martially trained, I would argue that many of them wouldn't. Then take the poor and destitute working class. Where are they going to learn to use a firearm? Where are they going to get the funds to buy one for that matter?

When you look at NPC's around Dementleiu, you see maybe a handful of firearms being carried, but primarily, you're seeing the rapier.  Now, if you were to argue that D'loo natives should have proficiency in the rapier, I might agree. But a firearm is a much more potent, dangerous, and hard to get weapon.  It's not the wild west or the US where guns are commonplace. It's a setting where firearms have come into fashion more recently and thus, not everyone will have access to them. Their might be more firearms than bows, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of crossbows to firearms is much closer. I'd be willing to bet that the number of thin bladed weapons far exceeds the number of firearms.

Firearms are exotic because in the setting in which we play, they are exotic. In Dementlieu they might be less exotic, but they are still not as commonplace as you'd make them out to be.

Of course, I could be wrong on this, and I invite you to provide material that refutes what I believe to be true. I'm not so prideful as be unwilling to be educated. I simply imagine stories like The Three Musketeers and I simply don't see everyone and their brother waving around a gun in those stories.

On the subject of dwarves, I see it as simple flavor. A dwarven war axe is better than a battle-axe, there's no doubt about that. However, that weapon is specifically thematic to the dwarven race. Elves get proficiencies with a handful of traditionally elven themed weapons, halflings get bonuses to throwing type weapons (including slings), humans learn quicker and therefore gain more skills and feats than any other race. Isn't that enough?

1) Due to the levy system, yes, I am implying that commoners, workers, and nobles all alike have handled a firearm at some point. However, the player isn't any  of these, so let's stop the comparisons right there towards NPC classes.

Take your same argument, and turn it towards Dwarves, and Waraxes again. Are you telling me that a miner, a merchant, a brewer, everyone in Dwarven Society knows how to use a Waraxe, in every possible Dwarven setting? Are you telling me that every Elf has used a Shortbow, a Rapier, a Longsword, and a Longbow? It doesn't quite make sense, no, and it makes even less sense when you consider that using any of these things takes significantly more training than it does to learn how to stand in a line, and fire off a musket ball once every 18 Seconds. It was so infamously easy, that even by the 1500's, the Longbow and the Crossbow were quickly falling out of usage in favor for firearms.

2) You don't see a lot of firearms carried by NPCs in Dementlieu because Firearms utilize a script that NPCs cannot use. There are no NPCs, anywhere, in Dementlieu that carry or use a firearm, however in the source material, Gendarmes all have a rapier and a pistol as their equipment.

3) I wouldn't argue that D'loo natives should have proficiency in the rapier, because rapiers are historically more expensive, and require weeks and years of dedicated training to be good with. Someone has to teach you how to use a sword correctly, it isn't as easy as just picking it up and stabbing and hacking, and sawing. Yes, you can do that; But so too can you pick up a gun and squeeze the trigger, so that's not really what proficiency is arguing.

4) Firearms are so thematically integrated with the domain of Dementlieu, that the usage of armor has more-or-less entirely fallen to the wayside because of the prominence of firearms. Entering into Les Rues des Pistolets, an entire street named after firearms, you hear nothing but gunshots going overhead, and pandimonium because the plebian commoners are playing with guns. In events where the peasantry have been depicted in combat, they've been depicted with guns. Firearms are so commonplace in Dementlieu, that the winning of the battles against the Falkovnians were attributed in the canon, to Firearms (although some of it was also, mind control).

5) This has no relation to the modern-world United States. I am not comparing anything here to the modern-world United States. It is harder to acquire a firearm and it is less culturally integrated to use firearms to the common person, in the United States, than it was to have a firearm in the possession of your Household in France, England, the New World, or Spain. Firearms were so readily owned, by so many people, that it was utterly impossible to disarm a populus during the black powder era of firearms. It wasn't until firearms technology began to advance significantly that Governments began any shape or form of gun control, because they knew older weapons would fall into obsolesce.

6) Humans technically don't gain more skills or feats than any other race. They receive an additional 4 SP on character creation, and one feat; Ones you can put anywhere, but they aren't per se, given more than other Races. Not when you include additional proficiencies, racial abilities, and race-specific skill adjustments. I'd even go so far as to suggest that Dementlieuse lose their free feat, and give them the proficiency instead.

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The closing point to this is, that firearms aren't exotic to Dementlieuse. They'd fall under martial proficiency, if anything, because things such as firearms are more common in their lives, than longswords, or longbows, or crossbows, or so forth. They're deadly, they're easy to use, to the point they supplanted basically every other form of weapon after their conception.

herkles

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2022, 06:15:50 PM »
2) You don't see a lot of firearms carried by NPCs in Dementlieu because Firearms utilize a script that NPCs cannot use. There are no NPCs, anywhere, in Dementlieu that carry or use a firearm, however in the source material, Gendarmes all have a rapier and a pistol as their equipment.

In regards to NPCs carrying firearms that isn't true. I specifically added some time back for there to be some Gendarmes that have muskets out when they patrol or stand guard.


BraveSirRobin

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2022, 07:09:03 PM »
2) You don't see a lot of firearms carried by NPCs in Dementlieu because Firearms utilize a script that NPCs cannot use. There are no NPCs, anywhere, in Dementlieu that carry or use a firearm, however in the source material, Gendarmes all have a rapier and a pistol as their equipment.

In regards to NPCs carrying firearms that isn't true. I specifically added some time back for there to be some Gendarmes that have muskets out when they patrol or stand guard.

I'll correct it to 95% of the server's history, then; Though they didn't use muskets in the books iirc, they used pistols for the whole pistol + rapier musketeer aesthetic

KovosDatch

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2022, 09:15:12 PM »
If D'loo characters got this, they should have an ECL +1 as a trade off.

That being said, many voiced their opinions and I am still not in favor of giving those in D'loo a free feat without getting all other races up to speed too. It just wouldn't be fair.

PrimetheGrime

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2022, 10:51:21 PM »
I'd like to remind everyone that humans get a free feat and bonus skill points. Those first represent that humans are quick learners of course, but also their regional specificity. If it is important for your Dementlieuse to be proficient with firearms (and it won't be for all of them), then this is what the free feat is meant for.

It is not our intent to add any bonuses that would make a human from a given place to have any marginal advantage compared to humans from anywhere else. (OCR excepted)

To add to this I see no reason to give a free feat that can be used to gain access to a pretty powerful weapon. A level 2 with a pistol can and has killed characters much higher than he with said weapon because of how much a punch the firearms pack. As MAB mentioned humans have that additional feat to put it into their regional feats, in this case weap prof exotic. On a mechanical level this is to balance out the strength of firearms. On a roleplay level it's to give a dlew or other firearm capable pc the option to begin with that proficiency. I personally see no need to change this unless the team decides to put down a lot of work for backgrounds, which is definitely not our focus at this time. TLDR I see no reason to change the current set up for the exotic feat at this time

William Roberts

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2022, 09:13:17 AM »
Quote
Due to the levy system, yes, I am implying that commoners, workers, and nobles all alike have handled a firearm at some point. However, the player isn't any  of these, so let's stop the comparisons right there towards NPC classes.

Take your same argument, and turn it towards Dwarves, and Waraxes again. Are you telling me that a miner, a merchant, a brewer, everyone in Dwarven Society knows how to use a Waraxe, in every possible Dwarven setting? Are you telling me that every Elf has used a Shortbow, a Rapier, a Longsword, and a Longbow? It doesn't quite make sense, no, and it makes even less sense when you consider that using any of these things takes significantly more training than it does to learn how to stand in a line, and fire off a musket ball once every 18 Seconds. It was so infamously easy, that even by the 1500's, the Longbow and the Crossbow were quickly falling out of usage in favor for firearms.

Well, this ducks the cost that ZRun mentioned. In game firearms are expensive...and so is the supply of practice ammo that would be required to learn the rapid pace of fire you describe.

Quote
I wouldn't argue that D'loo natives should have proficiency in the rapier, because rapiers are historically more expensive, and require weeks and years of dedicated training to be good with. Someone has to teach you how to use a sword correctly, it isn't as easy as just picking it up and stabbing and hacking, and sawing. Yes, you can do that; But so too can you pick up a gun and squeeze the trigger, so that's not really what proficiency is arguing.

You have to load the powder and bullet. A firearm also has to be cleaned and maintained. (I don't know why a rapier would be historically more expensive, but that's irrelevant to which costs more in the game.)

Finally, the more you argue that this is so "infamously easy" the more you make the case anyone should be able to do it; in other words, it should not require a feat investment for others either.

Should picking up a bastard sword and swinging it need exotic proficiency when one is proficient in the long sword and great sword? I suspect the reason it does is for game balance. And for game balance firearms should be just as difficult or easy to learn, regardless of a character's domain of origin.


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BraveSirRobin

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Re: The Exotic Firearm: Not Exotic for Dementlieuse
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2022, 06:27:59 PM »

Well, this ducks the cost that ZRun mentioned. In game firearms are expensive...and so is the supply of practice ammo that would be required to learn the rapid pace of fire you describe.

During the Napoleonic Wars, which was the absolute height of regimented firearms, many soldiers were given less than a dozen practice rounds to shoot. The majority of work was drilling, and instruction; But even then, that was second to instilling discipline in the ranks. The act of learning to use a black powder weapon was elementary, and could be effected with ease, if you were made familiar either by proximity to them, or simple militia drilling.

Another example of this would be American Colonials during the American Revolution. They did not have very much in terms of supply at all; But then again, casting a bullet was the easy part. It was acquiring the black powder, that was the more difficult of the two; Which required to be mixed to a certain standard.

You have to load the powder and bullet. A firearm also has to be cleaned and maintained. (I don't know why a rapier would be historically more expensive, but that's irrelevant to which costs more in the game.)

Finally, the more you argue that this is so "infamously easy" the more you make the case anyone should be able to do it; in other words, it should not require a feat investment for others either.

Should picking up a bastard sword and swinging it need exotic proficiency when one is proficient in the long sword and great sword? I suspect the reason it does is for game balance. And for game balance firearms should be just as difficult or easy to learn, regardless of a character's domain of origin.

The case made is for people for whom martial weapons proficiency would apply, ultimately; The racial/origin trait suggestion was just a way to implement it that seemed more feasible. Arguably, not every Dwarf would be proficient with their waraxe, nor every Elf with a Longbow, which took much longer to learn how to use, and by historical standards, the building of much muscle in order to utilize a longbow with a draw strength effective to harm armored foes.

A sword of any form, requires someone who is a skilled smith to balance, temper, and smith it. It then requires an understanding of how to use it in order to not immediately die in your first fight. One can pick up a sword and swing it around, but to use it with any effectiveness, requires years of practice. As evidenced by the numerous historical manuals recovered and placed in museums depicting maneuvers, concepts, and practices of swordsmanship.

Firearms are very easy to use, by comparison; Easier to use than a Crossbow, and far, far easier to use than a Longbow. The most dangerous part of doing so is seating your powder and priming the weapon without putting too much powder inside, but this issue was resolved by pre-measuring powder into paper or wax cartridges, which is also a thing they do on PoTM, the item exists. Tools also exist to pre-measure powder for shots, that work to the same effect that frontiersmen and hunters would use, those who would carry powder horns.

The process is simple. You measure the powder, either with a device, or a paper/wax cartridge. If the latter,  you pull the hammer to half-cock, you rip the paper/wax cartridge it, pour the powder in the frizzen until full (that's the pan beneath the flint), close the pan, pour the rest down the barrel, push the paper/wax cartridge down the barrel with your thumb, grab the ramrod, push it down until it can't go down any further, return the ramrod, pull the hammer back, aim, and squeeze the trigger. Someone with an afternoon of instruction or who watched it occur could do it with consummate ease, especially if they grew up in a world where it wasn't an uncommon sight.

Take a Longbow, for comparison; In an age before compound bows. You would need to get a bow that matches your draw strength, and then knock an arrow, and loose it. That sounds easy, except for if you've ever taken archery with a recurve bow, you know that the muscle groups used in archery require development, and in order to be an effective archer, you need to spend hundreds of hours practicing. In the case of a firearm, aiming is just pointing in a general direction; There is no precision aiming in a time before rifling.

Take a Crossbow, for the next comparison. A light crossbow requires you to place it down, put your foot in the brace at the front, grip the crossbow back until it's cocked and try not to pull it unevenly, then place the bolt, and loose. Very ease, but also requires you to be able to pull the weight of the crossbow. Crossbows that could be pulled by hand were ineffective in warfare because of plate armor, for the most part; So by the time Crossbows became a weapon of war, they were often accompanied by a rope-and-pulley system that you had to mount upon it, wench the bow back, and then place the bolt and loose.

Then, finally, the sword. You can point and stick, and swing a sword, but to do it with any likelihood of surviving, you have to use it a lot. If the feat means, Proficiency, then to become Proficient with a sword would take a lot of practice against an instructor who will teach you the maneuvers of swordsmanship, or numerous fights against other people from which you could riskily learn.

Now come back to the pistol. You don't need much. And cleaning it out is another conversation, but the side-effects of failing to clean it out can be underlined in the Careful Handling feat, rate of fire in the Gearling Feat and Delven's Maneuver Feat. Firearms are given more feats in complexity than Crossbows, despite Crossbows being somewhat more complex and cumbersome in their operation than a firearm, especially the Flintlock, which is what made the Firearm easily accessible to everyone, and operable in most conditions.

Had this been a Matchlock, it would be a different story compared to the Crossbow, which is why during the 1500's and 1600's when Matchlocks were a thing, Crossbows still saw great favor in the battlefield and among armies. Wheelock pistols were used by the rich and affluent, because they allowed for pistols, and because they didn't have to fiddle with a lit match (a burning piece of hemp rope) in order to function. Flintlocks were the keystone to making firearms the universal weapon for armies, because their operation was simple and relatively foolproof, except for inclement weather.

Now, my argument towards familiarity with the Dementlieuse vs. Others, is that Dementlieuse are around these things all the time. Firearms are their national image of a mainline weapon of war. Gendarmes carry them on their belts, Thugs use them indiscriminately, Hunters use them for game, Levies raised are drilled in their usage because it's easier, cheaper, and a direct counter to the aged Falkovnian method of warfare. In-fact, you're raised in Dementlieu to believe that the superior Dementlieuse way of warfare is the only reason they aren't chattel to the KingFürher.

Compare this to say, Barovia, where firearms and black powder are prohibited. There is no nation in the Core that has such a relationship to firearms in their national identity, as Dementlieu does. Therefore, it doesn't make sense that firearms would be anything approaching exotic to them.

Now, one can argue that it's for some measure of game balance, and while I might timidly agree to some extent, from the perspective of the roleplay, that is where I disagree. After-all, one can easily outperform a Flintlock Pistol in DPS, even on a Black Powder Avenger, by investing half as many feats into a Longbow and using high-end Alchemical ammunition.


With that, I've said all I could; I'm going to bow out. It's obvious this isn't a popular suggestion.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 08:08:16 PM by BraveSirRobin »