Iron Golem Cheesing

[Dardonas]

If you go dungeoning as a lvl 11 wizard and you aren't buffing your party, then your party is going to wipe.

You can solo dungeons starting at level 11 or 12 with Acid Fog and Misted Magic, or through use of IGMS.  Every level from then on up is another level that furthers your soloing potential as a Wizard.

[Dardonas]

Well that's a problem with the nwn coding afaik. Same reason why negative varnishes work on the undead. Not sure how to fix that one.

Giving the undead creatures DR rather than immunity should fix it.  I believe undead MPCs that have negative resistance are not hurt by death armor or negative energy varnishes should just resist the negative damage.

Giving Salt Shadows (and other undead) -/100 Negative Resist might do the trick.

[Lexica]

I just find this whole argument silly. We’ve gone from “iron golem can solo barrows and salt mines” (not true) to “well, iron golem form can duo barrows if they tank and someone else does all the damage” which is, I mean- Sure, but that’s not soloing and the other half of the equation is pretty important. As someone who has used iron golem form in Barrows, you will absolutely die if you go in alone. You do take damage from harbingers and it adds up.

The argument that a wizard could hypothetically solo Barrows if they used a bunch of high end expensive consumables also feels silly. So could any class with umd if they wanted to set enough money on fire, and to be honest, I still think the sleeping king would kill the wizard even if they did try that.

Finally, the argument that a wizard can solo small clumps of salt shadows in the few places they’re found without other enemies that will kill the wizard is like- Okay? Sure. Someone could hypothetically do that. But that’s not an effort bent leveling method. Who is out here doing this, and why ar they doing that instead of just doing a dungeon and getting loot? This isn’t worth anyone’s time to “fix”.

I again invite anyone who thinks this is a problem to go make a level 20 wizard on the test server and walk into barrows. You will die very quickly.

[Chabxxu]

Not everyone wants to solo Dardonas. And the Red Cap makes it pretty much worthless to keep dungeoning anyway.

[Anarcoplayba]

Well that's a problem with the nwn coding afaik. Same reason why negative varnishes work on the undead. Not sure how to fix that one.

Giving the undead creatures DR rather than immunity should fix it.  I believe undead MPCs that have negative resistance are not hurt by death armor or negative energy varnishes should just resist the negative damage.

Giving Salt Shadows (and other undead) -/100 Negative Resist might do the trick.

Unless my google-fu is too broken, the original spell do not talk about negative energy. It mention only "damage": https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-compendium--86/death-armor--4345/

[Anarcoplayba]

I just find this whole argument silly. We’ve gone from “iron golem can solo barrows and salt mines” (not true) to “well, iron golem form can duo barrows if they tank and someone else does all the damage” which is, I mean- Sure, but that’s not soloing and the other half of the equation is pretty important. As someone who has used iron golem form in Barrows, you will absolutely die if you go in alone. You do take damage from harbingers and it adds up.

The argument that a wizard could hypothetically solo Barrows if they used a bunch of high end expensive consumables also feels silly. So could any class with umd if they wanted to set enough money on fire, and to be honest, I still think the sleeping king would kill the wizard even if they did try that.

Finally, the argument that a wizard can solo small clumps of salt shadows in the few places they’re found without other enemies that will kill the wizard is like- Okay? Sure. Someone could hypothetically do that. But that’s not an effort bent leveling method. Who is out here doing this, and why ar they doing that instead of just doing a dungeon and getting loot? This isn’t worth anyone’s time to “fix”.

I again invite anyone who thinks this is a problem to go make a level 20 wizard on the test server and walk into barrows. You will die very quickly.

The irony of the situation crossed my mind too. Even after the evidences of "non-soloability" were presented, the request of the nerf remained.

[apeppertoo]

So again, maybe just accept the fact that some things can be done by 1-2 people. It's not the end of the world.

The issue lies in that it is two classes that have more soloing potential than the entire list of classes.  Wizards and Sorcerers can open nearly any lock, tank nearly any trap, solo any boss.  They are capable of soloing content to max level from level 2, starting with Assassin Imp familiar at the Sullen Woods, moving to the Vestibule, to the Curst Cave, then to farming Salt Shadows at level 17 or 18.

I object to this characterization of Sorcerer extremely strenuously. In fact, reading this makes me angry. This is not my experience of my class and I'm level 20 and any advocacy for nerfing it rankles me.

I did not take an assassin imp at level 2 and go to the sullen woods, which I didn't even know existed at the time. I did not go to tiny areas of sithicus with mobs I can theoretically solo to grind out tiny bits of XP very carefully. I cannot open any lock. I do not risk stepping on traps. I almost never go to Western Barovia unless it's to make a single trade.

I see absolutely no reason for my capabilities to be reduced because of this player you've invented in your mind, who hits the ground running at level 2 with their assassin imp and just starts soloing and doesn't stop.

[Dardonas]

I just find this whole argument silly. We’ve gone from “iron golem can solo barrows and salt mines” (not true) to “well, iron golem form can duo barrows if they tank and someone else does all the damage” which is, I mean- Sure, but that’s not soloing and the other half of the equation is pretty important. As someone who has used iron golem form in Barrows, you will absolutely die if you go in alone. You do take damage from harbingers and it adds up.

The argument that a wizard could hypothetically solo Barrows if they used a bunch of high end expensive consumables also feels silly. So could any class with umd if they wanted to set enough money on fire, and to be honest, I still think the sleeping king would kill the wizard even if they did try that.

Finally, the argument that a wizard can solo small clumps of salt shadows in the few places they’re found without other enemies that will kill the wizard is like- Okay? Sure. Someone could hypothetically do that. But that’s not an effort bent leveling method. Who is out here doing this, and why ar they doing that instead of just doing a dungeon and getting loot? This isn’t worth anyone’s time to “fix”.

I again invite anyone who thinks this is a problem to go make a level 20 wizard on the test server and walk into barrows. You will die very quickly.

I never meant that wizards/sorcs could solo the dungeon in its entirety and it was my fault for assuming people knew that.  Sometimes I forget that not everyone is experienced with higher level content.  So when I clarified and refocused the post, it isn't me changing my mind or changing the argument.  I changed the title to clarify what was meant because not everyone has played a high level wizard or sorcerer or seen high level wizards or sorcerers do what I've seen them do, and do what I have done with them myself.

There is a bit of an issue with Wizards and Sorcerers where it is possible for people to solo or cheese dungeons with Iron Golem form from shapechange as well as Shadow Shield in the following areas:

Anyone who has done the dungeons I listed knows, yes, you can't solo the dungeon entirely on its own.  The issue comes to people soloing most of the dungeon and resetting it and decimating the spawn.

Salt shadow farming is the easiest way to level up to 20 as a Wizard/Sorc.  You go to Sithicus Salt Mines at night, do the first two areas, run out into the Mantle Woods and kill those Salt Shadows, then by the time you are finished there, Veidrava is ready for you to return. 

Silk farming is utterly trivial as a Wizard/Sorc.  You go in through the dungeon and do the first half, then dungeon log and repeat. 

And yes, I know it may seem self-defeatist to list out how people can do this if I have an issue with it.  However, sects of players know about it and do it and level up with ease and no danger and the only way it gets fixed is making people know about it. And if it isn't going to be fixed, there is nothing wrong with more people knowing the "meta strategies."

[The Prophet of Misinformation]

That is true. And of course, if you did give them a 3 dr skin, iron golems would still be the best and easiest way to kill them. It wouldnt really solve that tactic, as said wizard could probably still kill them before they chewed through Premo and stoneskin.

So if you really want to stop iron golems from killing salt shadows, you'd have to give them +4 at least, premonition would still protect but greater stoneskin would not (which is 20/4, premonition is the only one with a 5), which means of course, no one else could tank them at all, except perhaps druids. Who already do it easily enough.

Which begs the question, would they eat through premonition before they kill themselves? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.. So where do go you then? +5 weapons?

I think the argument is that for the server to be fair and balanced no one class should trivialise end game content. The idea is that by encouraging groups to be formed for dungeons you encourage roleplay at the same time.

To reiterate, the application of any strategy is a function of player agency. No one is making players "abuse" a specific playstyle.

The people playing mages using Iron Body to trivialize encounters have a decision to make - do it or don't do it.

I don't see how this logic is any different than splashing 5 levels of Hexblade to gain Mettle or going RDD under a thinly veiled roleplay justification.

This game is one of choices. It's 20 years old, the AI possesses double digit room temperature IQ. Collectively, we can be better or not.

When I write about "rebalancing" dungeons, it's half improvement of the core experience and half weeding out potential abuses.

Time spent reading through pages of "exploits" is time I can't spend working on new dungeons or enhancing whatever I'm working on.

I implore people to think about the ramifications of what they do and act accordingly.

My phone's calculator is smarter than NWN AI - "outwitting" it isn't a triumph. Call it exploitation. Don't call it exploitation. Play PotM like an MMO; don't.

Whatever you do, be aware of the consequences of your playstyle. I really don't care at the end of the day but threads like this won't go away until we change as players.

I agree, I’m merely pointing out the facts, as someone who plays a dragon disciple that has neither mettle or evasion. It’s pretty good that people figure out ways to do things but I also like group content.

As a builder, I enjoy the challenge of players figuring out novel ways of working around my challenges. Using Shapechange as a means to tank sneak attack spamming enemies isn't something I regard as an "exploit." I've entertained far more abusive strategies playing a Wizard.

The absence of risk involved in the encounter is the issue -- and I will address it. The point of my remarks is to inspire a modicum of reflection. There's a specific reason why I affirm players can do - and will do - as they please. It's a choice. All choices have consequence.

The crux of the issue isn't Shapechange - it's the willingness to do everything and anything to get an edge or exploit a broken system. When actual exploitation (not "exploits') occurs, it seizes dev attention. Other players complain. It wastes everyone's time. This is the problem to which I refer. I just hoped people would catch on rather than me having to spell it out.

[Anarcoplayba]

I just find this whole argument silly. We’ve gone from “iron golem can solo barrows and salt mines” (not true) to “well, iron golem form can duo barrows if they tank and someone else does all the damage” which is, I mean- Sure, but that’s not soloing and the other half of the equation is pretty important. As someone who has used iron golem form in Barrows, you will absolutely die if you go in alone. You do take damage from harbingers and it adds up.

The argument that a wizard could hypothetically solo Barrows if they used a bunch of high end expensive consumables also feels silly. So could any class with umd if they wanted to set enough money on fire, and to be honest, I still think the sleeping king would kill the wizard even if they did try that.

Finally, the argument that a wizard can solo small clumps of salt shadows in the few places they’re found without other enemies that will kill the wizard is like- Okay? Sure. Someone could hypothetically do that. But that’s not an effort bent leveling method. Who is out here doing this, and why ar they doing that instead of just doing a dungeon and getting loot? This isn’t worth anyone’s time to “fix”.

I again invite anyone who thinks this is a problem to go make a level 20 wizard on the test server and walk into barrows. You will die very quickly.

I never meant that wizards/sorcs could solo the dungeon in its entirety and it was my fault for assuming people knew that.  Sometimes I forget that not everyone is experienced with higher level content.  So when I clarified and refocused the post, it isn't me changing my mind or changing the argument.  I changed the title to clarify what was meant because not everyone has played a high level wizard or sorcerer or seen high level wizards or sorcerers do what I've seen them do, and do what I have done with them myself.

There is a bit of an issue with Wizards and Sorcerers where it is possible for people to solo or cheese dungeons with Iron Golem form from shapechange as well as Shadow Shield in the following areas:

Anyone who has done the dungeons I listed knows, yes, you can't solo the dungeon entirely on its own.  The issue comes to people soloing most of the dungeon and resetting it and decimating the spawn.

Salt shadow farming is the easiest way to level up to 20 as a Wizard/Sorc.  You go to Sithicus Salt Mines at night, do the first two areas, run out into the Mantle Woods and kill those Salt Shadows, then by the time you are finished there, Veidrava is ready for you to return. 

Silk farming is utterly trivial as a Wizard/Sorc.  You go in through the dungeon and do the first half, then dungeon log and repeat. 

And yes, I know it may seem self-defeatist to list out how people can do this if I have an issue with it.  However, sects of players know about it and do it and level up with ease and no danger and the only way it gets fixed is making people know about it. And if it isn't going to be fixed, there is nothing wrong with more people knowing the "meta strategies."

And people do only the first (easy) half of the vestibules for XP, and warmages move to Harakir upon reaching level 6, and rogues stealth leech XP, and many high levels locust swarm barovia for resources, druids solo and farm tons of stuff and ninjaloot is a thing.

Either we learn to deal with different playstyles (solo, duo, party, army) or we will keep stirring some strain that maybe should not be strained.

[Edward]

That is true. And of course, if you did give them a 3 dr skin, iron golems would still be the best and easiest way to kill them. It wouldnt really solve that tactic, as said wizard could probably still kill them before they chewed through Premo and stoneskin.

So if you really want to stop iron golems from killing salt shadows, you'd have to give them +4 at least, premonition would still protect but greater stoneskin would not (which is 20/4, premonition is the only one with a 5), which means of course, no one else could tank them at all, except perhaps druids. Who already do it easily enough.

Which begs the question, would they eat through premonition before they kill themselves? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.. So where do go you then? +5 weapons?

I think the argument is that for the server to be fair and balanced no one class should trivialise end game content. The idea is that by encouraging groups to be formed for dungeons you encourage roleplay at the same time.

To reiterate, the application of any strategy is a function of player agency. No one is making players "abuse" a specific playstyle.

The people playing mages using Iron Body to trivialize encounters have a decision to make - do it or don't do it.

I don't see how this logic is any different than splashing 5 levels of Hexblade to gain Mettle or going RDD under a thinly veiled roleplay justification.

This game is one of choices. It's 20 years old, the AI possesses double digit room temperature IQ. Collectively, we can be better or not.

When I write about "rebalancing" dungeons, it's half improvement of the core experience and half weeding out potential abuses.

Time spent reading through pages of "exploits" is time I can't spend working on new dungeons or enhancing whatever I'm working on.

I implore people to think about the ramifications of what they do and act accordingly.

My phone's calculator is smarter than NWN AI - "outwitting" it isn't a triumph. Call it exploitation. Don't call it exploitation. Play PotM like an MMO; don't.

Whatever you do, be aware of the consequences of your playstyle. I really don't care at the end of the day but threads like this won't go away until we change as players.

I agree, I’m merely pointing out the facts, as someone who plays a dragon disciple that has neither mettle or evasion. It’s pretty good that people figure out ways to do things but I also like group content.

As a builder, I enjoy the challenge of players figuring out novel ways of working around my challenges. Using Shapechange as a means to tank sneak attack spamming enemies isn't something I regard as an "exploit." I've entertained far more abusive strategies playing a Wizard.

The absence of risk involved in the encounter is the issue -- and I will address it. The point of my remarks is to inspire a modicum of reflection. There's a specific reason why I affirm players can do - and will do - as they please. It's a choice. All choices have consequence.

The crux of the issue isn't Shapechange - it's the willingness to do everything and anything to get an edge or exploit a broken system. When actual exploitation (not "exploits') occurs, it seizes dev attention. Other players complain. It wastes everyone's time. This is the problem to which I refer. I just hoped people would catch on rather than me having to spell it out.

I never said it was an exploit, I only came into this thread to give a response to the idea that all you could do with it was kill salt shadows. I’m probably the last person to think that you want dungeons to be hard, I agree with it being something all people can do, to have these enemies weakened further would be fine.

[Lexica]

I just find this whole argument silly. We’ve gone from “iron golem can solo barrows and salt mines” (not true) to “well, iron golem form can duo barrows if they tank and someone else does all the damage” which is, I mean- Sure, but that’s not soloing and the other half of the equation is pretty important. As someone who has used iron golem form in Barrows, you will absolutely die if you go in alone. You do take damage from harbingers and it adds up.

The argument that a wizard could hypothetically solo Barrows if they used a bunch of high end expensive consumables also feels silly. So could any class with umd if they wanted to set enough money on fire, and to be honest, I still think the sleeping king would kill the wizard even if they did try that.

Finally, the argument that a wizard can solo small clumps of salt shadows in the few places they’re found without other enemies that will kill the wizard is like- Okay? Sure. Someone could hypothetically do that. But that’s not an effort bent leveling method. Who is out here doing this, and why ar they doing that instead of just doing a dungeon and getting loot? This isn’t worth anyone’s time to “fix”.

I again invite anyone who thinks this is a problem to go make a level 20 wizard on the test server and walk into barrows. You will die very quickly.

I never meant that wizards/sorcs could solo the dungeon in its entirety and it was my fault for assuming people knew that.  Sometimes I forget that not everyone is experienced with higher level content.  So when I clarified and refocused the post, it isn't me changing my mind or changing the argument.  I changed the title to clarify what was meant because not everyone has played a high level wizard or sorcerer or seen high level wizards or sorcerers do what I've seen them do, and do what I have done with them myself.

There is a bit of an issue with Wizards and Sorcerers where it is possible for people to solo or cheese dungeons with Iron Golem form from shapechange as well as Shadow Shield in the following areas:

Anyone who has done the dungeons I listed knows, yes, you can't solo the dungeon entirely on its own.  The issue comes to people soloing most of the dungeon and resetting it and decimating the spawn.

Salt shadow farming is the easiest way to level up to 20 as a Wizard/Sorc.  You go to Sithicus Salt Mines at night, do the first two areas, run out into the Mantle Woods and kill those Salt Shadows, then by the time you are finished there, Veidrava is ready for you to return. 

Silk farming is utterly trivial as a Wizard/Sorc.  You go in through the dungeon and do the first half, then dungeon log and repeat. 

And yes, I know it may seem self-defeatist to list out how people can do this if I have an issue with it.  However, sects of players know about it and do it and level up with ease and no danger and the only way it gets fixed is making people know about it. And if it isn't going to be fixed, there is nothing wrong with more people knowing the "meta strategies."

Dardonas, I often agree with your suggestions, but I’m just not seeing this one. It is trivially easy to red cap yourself just from doing dungeons normally if you go to the mist camp and get a party together. The silk thing, sure, maybe that’s an issue because it’s a dungeon people do commonly and there’s meaningful loot out of it. But people would be doing it for the silk.

Going to Veidrava and soloing salt shadows isn’t a good or efficient use of time. It just isn’t. Someone could instead redcap themselves doing Aboleth or Cursts or Hotep with a party and get actual loot out of it. I don’t see the point in putting a ton of effort into patching out a really ineffecient solo grinding method in a way that might effect how actual parties using teamwork do the dungeon.

[Vissy]

Frankly, I think a part of the issue is that people see no issue with soloing and trivializing content. If one can do it doesn't mean it should be done - that's just me on a personal level, though. It feels weird and a little worrying that content that is supposed to be really dangerous in-game is trivialized and basically made a joke out of by solo players. And if this means they level up much faster than everyone else, it does actually seem to translate into potential problems in roleplaying as well. Well that's just my two cents anyway.

[MJ_Johansson]

It does not mean they level faster than everyone else, or anyone else at all, who actively dungeons. XP Cap being a thing, and soloing guarantees you do not get RP XP which helps reduce said cap, they'd actually level -slower- than someone who dungeons with a group and RPs whilst doing it..

[cooachlyfe]

Unless major overhauling is done, people are always going to find ways to solo or trivialize content. That's just the AI for you. Sure you can make things harder but it would just make things harder for everyone else. And besides from an Iron Golem in Shadow Shield and Death Armor fighting normal salt shadows, there is still a risk duoing Barrows with the Iron Golem and a fighter or dragon disciple. Things go wrong, positioning is bad, enemies don't react in ways you expect, etc. If this thread is about making it tougher for warded Iron Golem to trivialize Salt Shadows, fine I'll agree with that.

As for soloing, mostly every class has the potential to solo. It is a mindset- druids have creeping doom and elemental forms that make them immune to crits, monks can run to the end of Perfidus, hop into empty body and let everything kill themselves, beguilers and rogues ninjaloot Thoth, potentially making millions without needing to interact with another player, a hexblade rogue can make themselves basically immune to spells, and the list goes on. Not to mention the brokenness of UMD.

It sounds like the underlying issue here isn't soloing- it is the fact that when someone solos or even duos, it is killing a spawn and forcing a group to wait up to 8 irl hours for it to be worthy of clearing again. I even know a few people who stopped playing because when they logged in, everything was already cleared for the day. I understand the turnaround time for dungeons is lengthed to prevent farming- however, I think an unintended side effect was people are now -racing- to get to a dungeon first and if you can clear a dungeon out yourself, why wouldn't you?

[Death]

Honestly I think players should be warned or discouraged from Soloing end game content like the Sithicus Barrows and Salt Mines, if this is a huge issue for concern.

Obviously, DMs cannot be around all the time, so perhaps a script should be implemented to detect if a number of players has passed through a transition, and trigger an ambient message if only one or two people pass through versus a normal sized party, for example, you step through as a single wizard. You would be hit with a message like this.

'You feel a distinct sense of danger here, and despite your best attempts to rationalize and push past the fear, you cannot.'

And it kicks you back out to the entrance.

I would only implement a script like this in the Sithicus dungeons, because they are epic level dungeons and require full parties of 5 or 6 to take on. They are also not ninjalootable through normal means. This would definitely be a surefire way to make certain that players actually party up to enter these dungeons and make the journey, versus nerfing important protective spells for the actions of a few.

A script like this might not take as long as an entire overhaul of a dungeon space, either.

[Rocket]

It does not mean they level faster than everyone else, or anyone else at all, who actively dungeons. XP Cap being a thing, and soloing guarantees you do not get RP XP which helps reduce said cap, they'd actually level -slower- than someone who dungeons with a group and RPs whilst doing it..

The counterpoint is if you can solo, then you have ease of access to go out and grind that xp/gold versus waiting and hoping you can gather a group to face a difficult challenge.

I would really encourage a change in what can be soloed by mixing up all the obstacles in a dungeon and who can surpass those obstacles.

Locked chests should be high DC, requiring at least a single rogue level class to open. Open lock should be a capped skill just like disable trap. Taking a rogue level should relieve that cap. Thus open lock equipmen bonus cheesing is deterred. Other alternatives are each rogue level reduces the cap by x amount. Or each rank invested in open lock reduces the cap by x.

Valuable loot should be found on enemy corpses or within chests, not out in open piles of rubble. Thus ignoring enemies for loot is deterred.

Sometimes "keys" to "magic doors" should only be found on enemy corpses, thus ninja looters would be deterred and require enemies to be killed.

The goal here is to require the dungeon to be completed by a mixture of skill sets.

Is it possible a dungeon could be scripted to defend a npc, a spirit, something. Defend it for certain amount of time. Enemy reinforcements spawn from various locations causing a little more chaos than the typical structure of dungeons. Can random elements be mixed into dungeon mechanics? Impose the adventurers to solve problems beyond the cliche problem, do we have the buffs and AC to get past this?

Could an influence check or other skills checks be used to gain advantageous bonuses? Maybe you can curry favor with an NPC who will grant you a key to a door, a different route through the dungeon. Spitballing ideas.

[cheese tornado]

It's not cheesing if its an organic, natural use of the provided spells. It cheapens the experience of the Salt Shadows perhaps, but that's exactly what I'd expect from a mage capable of trivializing them. You master the threat. Congratulations! Maybe don't solo, knowing real fear is when your frontline gets corpsed X_X

[Madame Trousers Son]

It's also the fact that when you have a single type of mob, you are playing to a Wizard's strength. If a Wizard knows they are only facing Mummies, or Salt Shadows, or whatever, they can go away and prepare precisely the spells they need for that encounter. You challenge a Wizard by attacking them from multiple angles that stretch their spell selection to its breaking point. Present a single kind of problem and the option to retreat, and the Wizard can always eventually come back with the perfect solution to the problem. That's the very nature of the class.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Yup, everything has a weakness. You can start adding "unfair" modifiers to enemies to adjust their power up and remove these vulnerabilities, or just introduce some more variety so the "farm" isn't always up to be harvested. I think Prophet is taking the right route, soloers already "punish" themselves by taking a long time to do what they're doing and spending less time around other players. It's their choice.

I was never a fan of the spawn building system and I don't think it's as effective a farming deterrent as having totally random mobs and introducing more uncertainty to the server, in terms of what threats are out there. Do I want to be corpsed by random instagib mobs in cruel hiding places the moment I stop thinking with full clarity? No, but stuff like the patrols wandering around are a great way to keep things from being so certain all the time, and adding more surprises prevents us from getting the server down to a science so quickly. IMO it's only a positive. Everybody loves a good chase.

[Edward]

Yup, everything has a weakness. You can start adding "unfair" modifiers to enemies to adjust their power up and remove these vulnerabilities, or just introduce some more variety so the "farm" isn't always up to be harvested. I think Prophet is taking the right route, soloers already "punish" themselves by taking a long time to do what they're doing and spending less time around other players. It's their choice.

I was never a fan of the spawn building system and I don't think it's as effective a farming deterrent as having totally random mobs and introducing more uncertainty to the server, in terms of what threats are out there. Do I want to be corpsed by random instagib mobs in cruel hiding places the moment I stop thinking with full clarity? No, but stuff like the patrols wandering around are a great way to keep things from being so certain all the time, and adding more surprises prevents us from getting the server down to a science so quickly. IMO it's only a positive. Everybody loves a good chase.

I agree, getting one shot is pretty annoying.