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Author Topic: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change  (Read 7377 times)

MAB77

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2022, 03:41:49 PM »
Is it? You are literally suggesting a tool so we can know when it's day or night time, so that one may know if it's the right time to log or not. I don't think Maffa's assessment was that far off the mark.

It's mistaking cause-and-effect. It's blaming this hypothetical tool providing information to players, rather than the actual cause, which is the restrictions that apply at night. If I want to go out and buy ice cream, but I look at the clock and find out it's 3am, so no stores are open, it's not my clock's fault that I can't buy ice cream and so don't bother to go out.

On average, a random player logging on at the Tser Camp will face an 18 minute wait if they want to go to Western Barovia (50% of a 0 to 72 minute wait => 50% chance of ~avg 36 minute wait => mean average of 18 minute wait).

Helping players mitigate this waiting time by providing them with more information is a good thing and a good way to make this change more manageable. Arguing that they should accept the lucky dip of Mist Camp RP is going to be a far more hit-and-miss strategy. Being an European time zone player, I know that if I log into the Mist Camp and find out I have to wait 18 minutes before going to Western Barovia, chances are good that I won't find any RP to distract me and will probably log off.

So in the spirit of being constructive: I'm fairly sure a tool could be written in Javascript to give some rough guesstimates as to when day/night times will be, given an input OOC time and IC time by a player. If I write such a tool, is there a way it could be hosted?

I'm sure a script could be done, there are a number of issues here. Most importantly, for security reasons we will not let any third-party software tap on the server. I'm sure you can understand why. As such, your tool would not directly be tied with the server. It would not know when the server resets. In-game time isn't always constant, nor fully consistent from a reset to the next. The tool would have to be re-synchronized manually regularly. That's for the more obvious points, there are other technical considerations, but at the end of the day you need but to log in to know what time it is, or you can just ask on Discord, though that's meta-gaming and should be avoided.

Again, you see a problem where to us it is a solution. We want to slow down the return of high level characters in western Barovia. There is no turning back to what it was before there were RPXP and no counterbalance. This is actually a very mild and good way to go about it. It even makes sense from an in-game perspective as canonically the Vistani do feast at night time. It is proper that they take a break and resume "work" in the morning.

I stick to my guns in that it is something you can easily plan for. You know when you cross in Eastern Barovia that you face the risk of being caught after dark (and the occasional noob will just learn) so whatever follows is a result of your own choices. You decide where you last log off and therefore are perfectly able to place your character in a location where it will not be an issue to log back at night. There is still plenty of meaningful things to do around VoB even being alone at lower levels. Night and day are both to be experienced on this server.
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Dardonas

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #151 on: September 22, 2022, 03:50:02 PM »
After some thought, I'm actually not against the time gated aspect.  I do agree with what MAB said above, which is that you know where you log out at.  It will inconvenience some people, but I think it is good to pick one area to be an influence in rather than roaming across the Core at the drop of a pen.  This should encourage people to be more interactive with the setting and roleplay because they invest themselves in the area they want to be in.

I think, if anything, the wall will prevent people from rushing over to Barovia from Mist Camp when DMs are doing events, or when MPCs log in.

My only request is that the current formula for MPCs crossing the mist wall stay the same, where they can cross the wall without an elixir.  And, subsequently, I think they should be immune to the time gate.  A notable issue that might crop up for them otherwise is that vampires who hide their coffins east of the Mist Wall will have trouble making their way back because they already exist in a sort of "time gated" situation with their sunlight vulnerability.  It, of course, shouldn't be exploited but we should not worry about MPCs exploiting by the virtue of the privilege they have being able to be taken away.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 03:57:53 PM by Dardonas »

APorg

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #152 on: September 22, 2022, 03:51:29 PM »
If I start posting the output of my tool to the forums so that people can actually try to plan their days around the IC day/night cycle, is that metagaming too?
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #153 on: September 22, 2022, 03:56:11 PM »
Though I must say the Blood o' the Vine can be an excellent spot for RP. While it's true VoB isn't intended as a hub, it already has all the required amenities (except a bank) and we are making VoB more interesting with ongoing changes. A hub is really just that place players are willing to stay at.

I think this is a good takeaway, that VoB can be a hub after all, just one that's unintended and not *currently* supported by the overhead. Similar to unsupported player factions, doesn't stop people from subscribing.

AMPCs follow where the people are, and there's been a few ghouls and vampires that've laired out there in the past.

Waiting out in Eastern Barovia at the tavern or doing one of many low and mid-high dungeons while one waits out the night are always options. Even high levels need to collect chitin from the ants there, and ancient dire bear fur, to do easy leatherworking xp, lurid mildew is in the caves. A couple hidden iron and rarely silver mines. An iron seam out there if you're lucky with a particular place.

Maybe its a little small compared to Vallaki, but many people confine themselves to the even smaller section of just the outskirts.

If you get cut off from the west, it's not like there's nothing productive to do while one waits. If its a DM event in west you're going for, ask for a teleport.

Nothing is stopping the specific people you intend to meet from heading to VoB as a middle ground, either.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 03:57:52 PM by zDark Shadowz »

MAB77

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2022, 04:01:42 PM »
If I start posting the output of my tool to the forums so that people can actually try to plan their days around the IC day/night cycle, is that metagaming too?

People already ask on Discord. It's not that much of a deal or find out straight from the OOC room. Knock yourself out.
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APorg

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #155 on: September 22, 2022, 04:02:24 PM »
Ok, good!
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EarlofEtheria

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2022, 06:46:30 PM »
After some thought, I'm actually not against the time gated aspect.  I do agree with what MAB said above, which is that you know where you log out at.  It will inconvenience some people, but I think it is good to pick one area to be an influence in rather than roaming across the Core at the drop of a pen.  This should encourage people to be more interactive with the setting and roleplay because they invest themselves in the area they want to be in.

I think, if anything, the wall will prevent people from rushing over to Barovia from Mist Camp when DMs are doing events, or when MPCs log in.

My only request is that the current formula for MPCs crossing the mist wall stay the same, where they can cross the wall without an elixir.  And, subsequently, I think they should be immune to the time gate.  A notable issue that might crop up for them otherwise is that vampires who hide their coffins east of the Mist Wall will have trouble making their way back because they already exist in a sort of "time gated" situation with their sunlight vulnerability.  It, of course, shouldn't be exploited but we should not worry about MPCs exploiting by the virtue of the privilege they have being able to be taken away.

Great comments, I agree with each point. The RPXP part of these changes hardly holds my interest compared to the boons and cons of stricter travel.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #157 on: September 22, 2022, 08:44:09 PM »
Quote
My only request is that the current formula for MPCs crossing the mist wall stay the same, where they can cross the wall without an elixir.  And, subsequently, I think they should be immune to the time gate.  A notable issue that might crop up for them otherwise is that vampires who hide their coffins east of the Mist Wall will have trouble making their way back because they already exist in a sort of "time gated" situation with their sunlight vulnerability.  It, of course, shouldn't be exploited but we should not worry about MPCs exploiting by the virtue of the privilege they have being able to be taken away.

Undead and constructs are already immune to the choking fog since it only affects living creatures. We'll look into the possibility of having other MPCs (lycanthropes primarily) be exempt as well.

PrimetheGrime

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #158 on: September 22, 2022, 10:31:59 PM »
Alright so there's been a lot of opinions on both sides on how this change will effect how we all as players play the game. I think considering the patch is live now that we leave this thread be for now and start gathering data on how this change goes. If it really does look to be a detriment to the playerbase it's possible it'll be rescinded but time will tell. I would suggest for the time being, play out the new change and see how it goes. If need be there's always time to post up your feedback.

Rocket

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #159 on: September 23, 2022, 02:56:59 AM »
I would like to make a reminder, I understand the reasoning behind the mist wall locking.

To make the BEST of this change, guys please make an effort to seek others when you are locked on the East side instead of simply logging out.
Since it will be night time, you are likely to choose destinations such as Mist Camp, Tser Pool Vistani Camp, The "Bus Stop" benches very close to the crossroads, an interior location of VOB: Church, Blood of the Vine.
(I wish Blood of the Vine was a high traffic tavern and you could expect to find other players there consistently)

The new update revamps some dungeons for VOB. It would be nice if players at least in the VOB level range would err on travel to Mist Camp, and instead choose any option in West Barovia given the area has increased value. However, players always need to fill their gold so dungeon trips bring players back to MC. So the natural tendency of players is still, to fill up in MC.

I encourage you, regardless of this tendency, to travel back to Barovia for other activities not limited to dungeons.

This change is to deter players who RP in West Barovia and then Dungeon in higher level zones. So perhaps accept what it is, and begin RP in higher level zones.
Decrease the frequency you stay in West Barovia. Thankfully, any trips back to Barovia still reward RP with xp!

My point being, high level RP tends to stunt unless you really press to seek it out. It would be nice if it didn't feel so hard to do so.
And I'm not telling players who stay or enjoy West Barovia to leave, even I am one of the players who enjoys returning to connect the lower levels to RP growth and guidance.
I am saying what we all could hope to change - better and more RP in high level areas!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 02:58:53 AM by Rocket »

Disorder

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #160 on: September 23, 2022, 03:53:03 AM »
Quote
My only request is that the current formula for MPCs crossing the mist wall stay the same, where they can cross the wall without an elixir.  And, subsequently, I think they should be immune to the time gate.  A notable issue that might crop up for them otherwise is that vampires who hide their coffins east of the Mist Wall will have trouble making their way back because they already exist in a sort of "time gated" situation with their sunlight vulnerability.  It, of course, shouldn't be exploited but we should not worry about MPCs exploiting by the virtue of the privilege they have being able to be taken away.

Undead and constructs are already immune to the choking fog since it only affects living creatures. We'll look into the possibility of having other MPCs (lycanthropes primarily) be exempt as well.

What about lvl 20 monks? They're in their own time/space bauble and generally do not follow the laws of the domain they're in, being outsiders

MAB77

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #161 on: September 23, 2022, 05:33:36 AM »
"Generally" but not always. In this particular case, 20th level monks will not be given a free pass. That would be entirely the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.
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Disorder

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #162 on: September 23, 2022, 10:03:22 AM »
"Generally" but not always. In this particular case, 20th level monks will not be given a free pass. That would be entirely the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

Fair enough, makes sense. Asked only because that for area is perhaps the only one where Reality wrinkle ability can be played without DM involvment, should it be scripted in a different way. Thanks.

PrimetheGrime

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2022, 10:33:35 PM »
Quote
My only request is that the current formula for MPCs crossing the mist wall stay the same, where they can cross the wall without an elixir.  And, subsequently, I think they should be immune to the time gate.  A notable issue that might crop up for them otherwise is that vampires who hide their coffins east of the Mist Wall will have trouble making their way back because they already exist in a sort of "time gated" situation with their sunlight vulnerability.  It, of course, shouldn't be exploited but we should not worry about MPCs exploiting by the virtue of the privilege they have being able to be taken away.

Undead and constructs are already immune to the choking fog since it only affects living creatures. We'll look into the possibility of having other MPCs (lycanthropes primarily) be exempt as well.

What about lvl 20 monks? They're in their own time/space bauble and generally do not follow the laws of the domain they're in, being outsiders

Considering this measure is to make it harder for higher levels to slip in and out of the mists I'd say no. Reality wrinkle powers aside, it still needa to mechanically keep people from circumventing the wall

Knight of Rhodes

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #164 on: September 27, 2022, 07:40:29 AM »
This change has harmed me more than helped me, however much I appreciate the roleplay XP gain.  The script either misbehaving or my ignorance of a mechanical aspect ruined a prearranged roleplay meetup because i didnt have time to run all the way back and trigger it again.


I still fail to see the necessity to impose this timelock, rather than decisively dealing with people that are disrupting the setting and perpetuating whatever issue has constantly led to more stick than carrot. 

Treat the cause, not the symptom. 

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MAB77

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #165 on: September 27, 2022, 08:54:14 AM »
This change has harmed me more than helped me, however much I appreciate the roleplay XP gain.  The script either misbehaving or my ignorance of a mechanical aspect ruined a prearranged roleplay meetup because i didnt have time to run all the way back and trigger it again.


I still fail to see the necessity to impose this timelock, rather than decisively dealing with people that are disrupting the setting and perpetuating whatever issue has constantly led to more stick than carrot. 

Treat the cause, not the symptom.

Treating the cause is exactly what we are doing, even though you disagree with the treatment. It is what you propose that is not feasible nor desirable. For one thing DMs are not numerous enough to deal with each instances of people being disruptive as they occur. Secondly this would only lead to more accusations of favoritism as some incidents are treated and others not. This mechanical solution has the advantage of being fair to all.

The necessity for the timelock was well explained in Soren's original post. The intent is to slow down the return of high level players to western Barovia when they leave the area, so that we do not reproduce the conditions that led us to cut RPXP for high levels in the first place. You actually just confirmed this part is working as intended. Be well aware too that his is only a first step. We hope this will be enough, but it not we will introduce other measures to further slow down returns to western Barovia.
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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #166 on: September 27, 2022, 08:59:48 AM »
Is the mist locked both ways?  Or is one able to LEAVE western Barovia during the night to go RP with others on the other side of the wall?  If the latter is true, peoples “scheduled meet up’s” just need relocation.

MAB77

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #167 on: September 27, 2022, 09:07:08 AM »
Is the mist locked both ways?  Or is one able to LEAVE western Barovia during the night to go RP with others on the other side of the wall?  If the latter is true, peoples “scheduled meet up’s” just need relocation.

As per setting canon, no one is ever prevented from entering the fog surrounding the village. The elixir is required only to leave it.
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Knight of Rhodes

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #168 on: September 27, 2022, 10:08:05 AM »
This change has harmed me more than helped me, however much I appreciate the roleplay XP gain.  The script either misbehaving or my ignorance of a mechanical aspect ruined a prearranged roleplay meetup because i didnt have time to run all the way back and trigger it again.


I still fail to see the necessity to impose this timelock, rather than decisively dealing with people that are disrupting the setting and perpetuating whatever issue has constantly led to more stick than carrot. 

Treat the cause, not the symptom.

Treating the cause is exactly what we are doing, even though you disagree with the treatment. It is what you propose that is not feasible nor desirable. For one thing DMs are not numerous enough to deal with each instances of people being disruptive as they occur. Secondly this would only lead to more accusations of favoritism as some incidents are treated and others not. This mechanical solution has the advantage of being fair to all.

The necessity for the timelock was well explained in Soren's original post. The intent is to slow down the return of high level players to western Barovia when they leave the area, so that we do not reproduce the conditions that led us to cut RPXP for high levels in the first place. You actually just confirmed this part is working as intended. Be well aware too that his is only a first step. We hope this will be enough, but it not we will introduce other measures to further slow down returns to western Barovia.

This sentiment is alarming and contrary to what a vast majority of players want or are looking for. 

I didnt confirm much beyond the script not persisting through rests screwed me out of my focus- Roleplay. 

I had been out of Barovia for well over twenty four RL hours, so my 'return' was specifically to meet up with another- and this prevented me from being able to do that. 

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MAB77

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #169 on: September 27, 2022, 10:24:00 AM »
This sentiment is alarming and contrary to what a vast majority of players want or are looking for. 

Are you so sure you speak for the majority? Don't ever be. No one can claim such thing with certainty. Protesting loudly on the forum doesn't make it the wish of the majority.
It is also our role to balance the requests of the players with the focus and philosophy of the server. That should not be a cause to be offended, nor is it disrespectful to players in any way.

I didnt confirm much beyond the script not persisting through rests screwed me out of my focus- Roleplay. 

I had been out of Barovia for well over twenty four RL hours, so my 'return' was specifically to meet up with another- and this prevented me from being able to do that.

The bug is one thing, and is being looked at. You are still 100% at fault for attempting to make it back to your meeting at the very last minute. Of your own account, you went up clearing monsters in between drinking the potions and trying to pass the fog. That clearly does not suggests a focus on roleplay however you wish to spin it. But this isn't a discussion for this thread reach out to me personally if you wish to discuss this further.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 10:29:43 AM by MAB77 »
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tylernwn

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #170 on: September 27, 2022, 10:27:16 AM »
I think this could be further revised, by allowing full roleplay xp in specific locations, in Wester Barovia. This could further drive roleplay to appropriate hubs (where you would expect to find high level characters).

For example, Full Roleplay XP in:
- Dvergheim
- **and other appropriate places.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 10:31:22 AM by tylernwn »

Knight of Rhodes

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2022, 10:53:20 AM »
The gaslighting is a nice touch. 

I went in for plants, and I left with two hours (12 minutes) to spare, and figured I had plenty of time.

I wonder what a poll would reveal, but It doesnt matter if I speak for the majority, or do not-  you rather pointedly said that it's irrelevant and the only way future change is more disruptive restrictions, not less.

My 'loud' protesting is actually in regards to your 'warnings', and now it's in how you deal with people and address them publicly.


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MAB77

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #172 on: September 27, 2022, 11:03:33 AM »
I feel you greatly exaggerate both my points and goals here. I will reach out to you privately though, it is clear we are now both a distraction to this thread.
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TedFromDebate

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2022, 11:51:24 AM »
I think that this change seems to have a good intended effect for those who want to rp in Barovia but have to go to the mist camp in order to adventure/dungeon- it makes it to where there is actual purpose in being in once place or the other. Now it feels like there's actual purpose to blind drive yourself in the Mist Camp and then come home and talk and conversate- before it felt like I was just kicking myself for doing it because (unless I misunderstood how blind drive gets reduced) if I wasn't getting rpxp I was actively wasting my time here.

I feel like this change not only makes it more meaningful to want to come home- and to not treat the nightly jaunt as a casual affair, but rather a bit more stressful as you have to make sure you get to Barovia soon enough- but also serves to, in a way, make the rp in Barovia more appealing for the somewhat higher level characters- I don't feel like I perhaps have to justify my time by thinking about going to try an obscure dungeon in a low pop time for gold and thinking it won't be /that/ bad, right?

I do understand how that might seem unappealing to the extremely higher level characters that likely dont have much of a use for gold anymore besides possible rp (is gold even used in rp? IDK) Or buying consumables/ sinking into crafting. But I think that those characters already have alot of privileges in terms of their ability to walk about Western Barovia- the threat of the old road at night is basically meaningless to someone completely enchanted or even moderately so- you /maybe/ have to worry about an MPC at level 16- but more likely than not, you could easily smoke em.

I bring that up because I think there is some valid understanding of this to say, to me, that if the running of  the old road at night has no impact to your rp, as I would say it does for 99% of players- then maybe there is something to gating it off if people are just going to zoom past it- which lets be honest, people do. At least for Raine, even though she isn't the perma enchanted lvl 16 I mentioned previously, has some want to clear the roads due to her following Shaundakul, whose entire vibe is keeping the routes of travel clear- but even then, I don't think that rp is make or break for my character.

It's easy to say that they should give us RPXP anyways- and I certainly think my earlier comment aludes to that as well- when you give people who's characters belong in Barovia more incentive to rp, they do it- but at the same time, I think it has some purpose to it in order to stop the rampant disprespecting of the module that people going from Mist Camp do.
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TedFromDebate

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2022, 11:58:13 AM »
I do wanna say, I don't think there'd be any harm in making the potions available at 4am instead of 6-7. 10 hours of sleep for our boy selling the potions still, and by the time you get to the mist wall it's basically morning anyhow- also I don't see the 4am time giving any meaningful difference to the dealings with MPCs, unless someone is hardcore metagaming and knows exactly where to run to. I think that this change makes it feel like I don't have to burn the morning and have it already be noon when I get to Vallaki (though admittedly I don't know exactly how long it takes me, that might be a bit of an exaggeration) and it doesn't feel like too much of a concession.
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