Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change

[Knight of Rhodes]

The fact of the matter is that alot of people, myself included, simply do not like the other settings and find nothing that interests them there.   

Some people thrive in the Port setting- or Hazlan- or whathave you.   I am thrilled for them, but I am not one of them-  however, to make money, or experience, I am forced to leave then come back to where I have fun.

I try to be very cognizant that I am a sword in a knife fight, and tend to communicate OOCly, outright avoid the smaller fish, and be a guiding piece, but in the end it is a matter of  where my time feels well spent, and where the events that interest me are.  Alot of people are in a similar boat.

I find the statement of time constraints not being applicable incredibly insensitive and borderline malicious, and if the development team and its design philosophy can't understand that some people simply do not enjoy the other areas-  I think you should take a fairly critical look and self examine.

Mind you, I came from a time where there was endgame content IN EASTERN BAROVIA.

I've played here for fourteen years for Barovia.

[Voclain]

The fact of the matter is that alot of people, myself included, simply do not like the other settings and find nothing that interests them there.   

Some people thrive in the Port setting- or Hazlan- or whathave you.   I am thrilled for them, but I am not one of them-  however, to make money, or experience, I am forced to leave then come back to where I have fun.

I try to be very cognizant that I am a sword in a knife fight, and tend to communicate OOCly, outright avoid the smaller fish, and be a guiding piece, but in the end it is a matter of  where my time feels well spent, and where the events that interest me are.  Alot of people are in a similar boat.

I find the statement of time constraints not being applicable incredibly insensitive and borderline malicious, and if the development team and its design philosophy can't understand that some people simply do not enjoy the other areas-  I think you should take a fairly critical look and self examine.

Mind you, I came from a time where there was endgame content IN EASTERN BAROVIA.

I've played here for fourteen years for Barovia.

Thanks for reiterating here. A lot of people I know share this opinion but simply don't post on the forums because they prefer to avoid the drama.

As for saying that you just shouldn't leave Barovia, a lot of the game's elements force you to. Some merchants that sell class-specific gear hang out in mist camp only. Claims for gear based in port or mist camp force you to travel to those locations to recover them. If you simply want to travel to East Barovia for whatever reason, you're still going to end up taking that mist wall into consideration. If you want specific crafting materials you're almost guaranteed to be leaving Barovia. If the server resets and you forgot to rest in an inn, you're more than likely running into that wall again.

I am opposed to the traveling restrictions made as a compromise, I don't see why POTM has to always have some sort of debuff on something.

I also thought this was a very good point to make. For some reason, we have to have something negative to counterbalance the positive done to the community. Instead of simply removing RPXP caps to see if the community 'really has changed', you've given us something new to gripe about for years to come. Is it really that bad if you just make a positive QOL change?

[myrddraal]

The fact of the matter is that alot of people, myself included, simply do not like the other settings and find nothing that interests them there.   

Some people thrive in the Port setting- or Hazlan- or whathave you.   I am thrilled for them, but I am not one of them-  however, to make money, or experience, I am forced to leave then come back to where I have fun.

I try to be very cognizant that I am a sword in a knife fight, and tend to communicate OOCly, outright avoid the smaller fish, and be a guiding piece, but in the end it is a matter of  where my time feels well spent, and where the events that interest me are.  Alot of people are in a similar boat.

I find the statement of time constraints not being applicable incredibly insensitive and borderline malicious, and if the development team and its design philosophy can't understand that some people simply do not enjoy the other areas-  I think you should take a fairly critical look and self examine.

Mind you, I came from a time where there was endgame content IN EASTERN BAROVIA.

I've played here for fourteen years for Barovia.

Thanks for reiterating here. A lot of people I know share this opinion but simply don't post on the forums because they prefer to avoid the drama.

As for saying that you just shouldn't leave Barovia, a lot of the game's elements force you to. Some merchants that sell class-specific gear hang out in mist camp only. Claims for gear based in port or mist camp force you to travel to those locations to recover them. If you simply want to travel to East Barovia for whatever reason, you're still going to end up taking that mist wall into consideration. If you want specific crafting materials you're almost guaranteed to be leaving Barovia. If the server resets and you forgot to rest in an inn, you're more than likely running into that wall again.

You can have perfectly adequate gear for everything in Vallaki from the Vallaki area.  The only thing you really *need* to leave Vallaki for is enchanting.  Steel performs perfectly fine, you can get varnishes to make your weapons and armor magical and negate the need even to enchant (even though it is still very nice)  Materials and gear can always be imported as well.  Hell, it builds more RP for you to establish consistent trade rather than going and farming everything yourself.  Some merchants make a killing buying stuff in the mist camp off the merchant and reselling it in the outskirts.  You are not *forced* to leave Vallaki.

[MAB77]

I find the statement of time constraints not being applicable incredibly insensitive and borderline malicious, and if the development team and its design philosophy can't understand that some people simply do not enjoy the other areas-  I think you should take a fairly critical look and self examine.

I'm sorry you feel so, nothing could be further than the truth. I rather think it's you that is insensitive to the requirements of running this server and the philosophy behind it. But I at least trust that you are not malicious. This is however not a debate for the public forum and you are free to contact me in private to discuss it. You may be surprised to find a rather down to earth person that absolutely love to discuss these issues and find common grounds.

We have explained our position. We are relaxing the RPXP, at the request of the vast majority of you I might add, but measures must be taken in return not to get back to a time where the presence of higher level characters in Barovia was eminently more disruptive than it is now. We thought long and hard before coming to this new setup. We settled for the least impacting form of it. At the end of the day, this only requires you to better time your travel out of Western Barovia. It does not intrinsically prevents you to do anything you want to do. It's absurd to pretend otherwise. Give it a month and I am certain pretty much everyone will have adjusted to the new reality and found out it's not so bad a change.

Voclain. There is absolutely nothing forcing a player to leave Western Barovia. Nothing whatsoever. Better gear, better loot, better XP may be incentives, sure. That does not make them obligations to leave. I have played many characters that never once crossed the Svalich pass simply because the RP never got me there, I never suffered because of it. It's all your personal choice, and playstyle preference nothing more. But we are, as a fact, and always will be, a server where we encourage players to take it slowly and value roleplay over all else. And that is where this change support this philosophy.

[Swan]

Everyone will have adjusted in a month, sure- because much like the Invisibility changes, the majority feedback was ignored and the change was implemented anyways. Adjustment doesn't account for much when the people who actually have to play with and deal with the changes don't actually have a say in the matter.

[Voclain]

But we are, as a fact, and always will be, a server where we encourage players to take it slowly and value roleplay over all else. And that is where this change support this philosophy.

That's exactly been our argument, though. There is no roleplay for people who prefer Barovia if they get stuck on the wrong side of the mist wall. East Barovia has never been a good source of roleplay because it has also been the developer team's vision to not have VoB act as a hub in any fashion. A/MPCs virtually never show up there either for that reason. The only hub to be found around that area is mist camp, and people have already stated their gripes with roleplay preferences there. We may start seeing weird tea parties around the mist wall at certain times of day, but I can't imagine how compelling that will be for people who just wanted to get back to their preferred RP hub during their crunch hours.

[MAB77]

Everyone will have adjusted in a month, sure- because much like the Invisibility changes, the majority feedback was ignored and the change was implemented anyways. Adjustment doesn't account for much when the people who actually have to play with and deal with the changes don't actually have a say in the matter.

A most unfair comment and certainly not substantiated by the end result of the invisibility of change (which precisely reached the mark we wanted). But there will never be any decision made that will please everyone. That's for another debate though. More to the point here. We are a community of several hundred players. None of us, me included, should ever make the mistake of "speaking for the majority". There sure are some very vocal dissensions, but they who yells louder do NOT form a majority.

[MAB77]

That's exactly been our argument, though. There is no roleplay for people who prefer Barovia if they get stuck on the wrong side of the mist wall. East Barovia has never been a good source of roleplay because it has also been the developer team's vision to not have VoB act as a hub in any fashion. A/MPCs virtually never show up there either for that reason. The only hub to be found around that area is mist camp, and people have already stated their gripes with roleplay preferences there. We may start seeing weird tea parties around the mist wall at certain times of day, but I can't imagine how compelling that will be for people who just wanted to get back to their preferred RP hub during their crunch hours.

And my argument is still that you are able to plan ahead if you know you may get "stuck" on the Eastern side. Roleplay can be found wherever 2 players meet. Whether is good or bad is up to our individual efforts. The surrounding environment ultimately have surprisingly little to do about that. Though I must say the Blood o' the Vine can be an excellent spot for RP. While it's true VoB isn't intended as a hub, it already has all the required amenities (except a bank) and we are making VoB more interesting with ongoing changes. A hub is really just that place players are willing to stay at.

[Swan]

I don't think I said anywhere that I claimed to speak for the majority. It's simply not difficult to read through a thread to ascertain what the majority feedback is, if it centers around a specific idea.

[MAB77]

I don't think I said anywhere that I claimed to speak for the majority. It's simply not difficult to read through a thread to ascertain what the majority feedback is, if it centers around a specific idea.

Sure, but that would require a majority of players to comment. Which is never the case. You can have a thread with only 30 different disgruntled players commenting, that'd still would not be indicative of the majority's will. You cannot manage a server solely on forum polls/posts alone, it's not an effective way to go. We also have our ways to gauge the efficiency of a measure and support or lack thereof of them. As I keep repeating though, nothing is ever done on a whim and we are mostly spot on when it comes to evaluate the impact a measure will have, or even the backlash that we will receive. Everything we do is to improve the server, and most of the time it succeeds. But we have our vision for it as well, and that is where it may not mesh well with some playstyles. The invisibility issue is for another post, but we are certainly happy with its current setup.

[LeafyPete]

I don't think I said anywhere that I claimed to speak for the majority. It's simply not difficult to read through a thread to ascertain what the majority feedback is, if it centers around a specific idea.

Sure, but that would require a majority of players to comment. Which is never the case. You can have a thread with only 30 different disgruntled players commenting, that'd still would not be indicative of the majority's will. You cannot manage a server solely on forum polls/posts alone, it's not an effective way to go. We also have our ways to gauge the efficiency of a measure and support or lack thereof of them. As I keep repeating though, nothing is ever done on a whim and we are mostly spot on when it comes to evaluate the impact a measure will have, or even the backlash that we will receive. Everything we do is to improve the server, and most of the time it succeeds. But we have our vision for it as well, and that is where it may not mesh well with some playstyles. The invisibility issue is for another post, but we are certainly happy with its current setup.

So while I would generally agree with this. There are plenty of people who /also/ feel the same way as the disgruntled players that just are not active forum participants as well. Many people are non confrontational in that aspect nor as involved in the discords or forums in general. 30 disgruntled players on just a forum post alone, then account for all the ones that don't share their thoughts both for and against, leaves you with say 50 as just an estimate for argument's sake.

50 people on a server that has probably 200 active players (estimation ,I don't know the exact numbers or claim to.) That is a relatively large chunk of the playerbase. Not just a small minority.

[APorg]

And my argument is still that you are able to plan ahead if you know you may get "stuck" on the Eastern side.

I have to comment on this point. It's going to be hard to plan ahead this sort of thing because the day/night cycle is, from the point of view of the average person logging on, random. So unless the Dev team offer some kind of Discord or online tool that tells us the IC day/night cycle and allows us to project it into a few days ahead, I don't really think you can say that players can plan ahead for this sort of thing.

[Maffa]

I have to comment on this point. It's going to be hard to plan ahead this sort of thing because the day/night cycle is, from the point of view of the average person logging on, random. So unless the Dev team offer some kind of Discord or online tool that tells us the IC day/night cycle and allows us to project it into a few days ahead, I don't really think you can say that players can plan ahead for this sort of thing.

If such a tool existed, as header to this very forum, for example, you'd see an explosion in forum usage.

on the other hand, id expect a large dip in nighttime playerbase.

[APorg]

I think it's strange to suggest that giving players better ability to track IC time will result in a dip of players at night, as opposed to the restrictions that apply at night, but OK.

[Edward]

I think it’s a worthy sacrifice for RP EXP in Western Barovia, but it does feel odd that we have to give anything up. Why not just force characters that enter Western Barovia to drop down to level 12?

[myrddraal]

I think it’s a worthy sacrifice for RP EXP in Western Barovia, but it does feel odd that we have to give anything up. Why not just force characters that enter Western Barovia to drop down to level 12?

I think that would be a far larger impact than restricting night time travel would be.  Moving a character a night before an event or just...the people you typically RP with is pretty simple, even if just to the other side of the mist wall and to midway haven which is like...a 2 minute run from there?  It's basically just making sure you park your character the night before if you are off gallivanting in other domains.  Taking people effectively level 12 for peak strength in west barovia would *also* make higher level players far less disruptive.  You wouldnt see as many going off and farming all the materials, being disruptive to MPCs stories, etc.  It would also make a lot of high levels *very* upset though.

[DM Erebus]

I think it’s a worthy sacrifice for RP EXP in Western Barovia, but it does feel odd that we have to give anything up. Why not just force characters that enter Western Barovia to drop down to level 12?

We don't want the problem that nixing rpxp in Vallaki was intended to solve returning along with the reduced rpxp - namely too many high-powered PCs turning up when something goes down intended for lower levels. Making the trip from the high level half of the server to the low level half more restrictive is another way of seeking to ameliorate that problem, so we're trying that.  We're trying to meet in the middle.

We have discussed a level drain on entering West Barovia, but decided in favour of this approach chiefly because this is more easily explained in-world. In the initial announcement where it mentions wanting to avoid 'artificial solutions', that's what is meant. How do you explain everyone getting level drained, other than 'DPs did it'. Also, that's a more technically challenging implementation because of some limitations of Effects within the game engine. Sounds simple, but is harder to make it work robustly and reliably.

[MAB77]

I think it's strange to suggest that giving players better ability to track IC time will result in a dip of players at night, as opposed to the restrictions that apply at night, but OK.

Is it? You are literally suggesting a tool so we can know when it's day or night time, so that one may know if it's the right time to log or not. I don't think Maffa's assessment was that far off the mark. But irrelevant to the new change, it is not possible to have such tool. We would otherwise have had it long ago. You'll have to resort to the next best thing, ask on Discord.

Not that it should matter anyway, if you are "to wait" one way or another (and that's a very big if, because honestly that won't even be an issue everytime you log), why not log anyway an RP with whoever else's waiting for dawn? You'll get RPXP out of it!

[Voclain]

why not log anyway an RP with whoever else's waiting for dawn? You'll get RPXP out of it!

The problem there is similar to what people faced in curfew- it requires shared knowledge of people's time schedules/availability. If you make the decision to log in and whoever else doesn't, you're left hanging dry for an hour and 12 minutes. Honestly, any determination on the veracity of that can be observed from simply looking at the outskirts, which I believe is the most populous hub in the game. Even so, people still find themselves waiting on empty streets, empty inn rooms, or empty church confines at several different points in a day. That's why I've taken such an adamant stance against the change, because blocking travel only results in more hiccups where RP opportunities won't prevent themselves.

[konssaml]

I disagree with your stance. There is nothing you can do in Western Barovia that you can't do elsewhere. "Time constraints" is therefore not a factor at all. Now perhaps you prefer to do things in Western Barovia, but then, you could also have chosen not to leave. That's really on you to assume your own choices.

We are a roleplay server first and foremost, we can and will implement measures that will force players to pause and consider other options to what they may prefer. Not maliciously, but because we feel these measures are most in line with our design philosophy. This is one of them. Soren explained it very well in a previous post too. It's definitively here to stick. We even made it abundantly clear that if this mild measure isn't sufficient we will consider adding more (though we'd prefer not to).

There is one thing you can only do in Western Barovia and that is to visit the one and only Dwarven settlement on the server, the only place were almost any Dwarf would be able to call home.

That being said I am in favour of creating another dwarf settlement anywhere else on the server.

[strangerinthealps]

I don't think I said anywhere that I claimed to speak for the majority. It's simply not difficult to read through a thread to ascertain what the majority feedback is, if it centers around a specific idea.

Majority Feedback ≠ Majority Opinion

Great Job Devs, Keep up the good work!!!

[Day Old Bread]

Hey Devs,

After hearing some of the discussion, I'm certainly on the side of this being a positive change. I don't think the drawback to daytime only crossing of the mist wall is going to be all that impactful. But, if I could make a single suggestion it would be this.

What about a removal of the cooldown timer between rides at the mist camp caravan.  Currently as it stands, if a party leaves just before you, you're stuck waiting 3 min (lets round down to 1.5 since there are two caravans now) for a caravan to become available. Then you've got a 3 minute ride back to Barovia.  That 1.5-3 minutes could be the difference between waiting another 72 minutes for another day cycle to begin.

I think that would alleviate a lot of concerns as people would be able to make a more reliable plan for their return, but still keeps the spirit of the new implementation in mind. 

I personally make the trip so infrequently as I doubt it'd make much impact for me, but I can certainly relate to some of the concerns mentioned.  In the end, I think it simply changes where people RP a little bit and I don't see a significant problem with that. As has been mentioned, not everyone is going to be happy with the change, but the more I think about it, the more I think it'll be a change for the best. Time will certainly tell in the end.

[APorg]

Is it? You are literally suggesting a tool so we can know when it's day or night time, so that one may know if it's the right time to log or not. I don't think Maffa's assessment was that far off the mark.

It's mistaking cause-and-effect. It's blaming this hypothetical tool providing information to players, rather than the actual cause, which is the restrictions that apply at night. If I want to go out and buy ice cream, but I look at the clock and find out it's 3am, so no stores are open, it's not my clock's fault that I can't buy ice cream and so don't bother to go out.

On average, a random player logging on at the Tser Camp will face an 18 minute wait if they want to go to Western Barovia (50% of a 0 to 72 minute wait => 50% chance of ~avg 36 minute wait => mean average of 18 minute wait).

Helping players mitigate this waiting time by providing them with more information is a good thing and a good way to make this change more manageable. Arguing that they should accept the lucky dip of Mist Camp RP is going to be a far more hit-and-miss strategy. Being an European time zone player, I know that if I log into the Mist Camp and find out I have to wait 18 minutes before going to Western Barovia, chances are good that I won't find any RP to distract me and will probably log off.

So in the spirit of being constructive: I'm fairly sure a tool could be written in Javascript to give some rough guesstimates as to when day/night times will be, given an input OOC time and IC time by a player. If I write such a tool, is there a way it could be hosted?

[FinalHeaven]

So in the spirit of being constructive: I'm fairly sure a tool could be written in Javascript to give some rough guesstimates as to when day/night times will be, given an input OOC time and IC time by a player. If I write such a tool, is there a way it could be hosted?

I've played on a server many moons ago that did have a tool to tack in-game time, among a few others things, that you could view on a webpage.  I don't know what code precisely was used to make it but given there are a few systems that rely upon tracking the in-game passage of time on POTM I'd be surprised if it truly wasn't "doable".

[JayJay]

Just don't leave Western Vallaki ever, problem solved.  Build the wall.