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Author Topic: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change  (Read 7374 times)

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« on: September 20, 2022, 02:23:01 AM »
This topic is to discuss the incoming changes and its context as announced here: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=65115

Please be mindful that this is a topic that people may have very differing and even strong opinions about, so let us all do our best in terms of keeping it civil.

Also, have in mind that this is a experimental change and a compromise, so we acknowledge that it isn't necessarily a perfect solution. But we hope that you will all give it a chance to materialize and prove itself before passing final judgement.

Cheers!

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2022, 02:24:45 AM »
I think this is a very good change.  Rewarding roleplay, even with minor RPXP, in western Barovia (a main roleplay hub) is, I feel, a very good thing.

Read my guide: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=62555.0
and come to my clinic in Vallaki!

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2022, 02:34:12 AM »
I think this is a very good change.  Rewarding roleplay, even with minor RPXP, in western Barovia (a main roleplay hub) is, I feel, a very good thing.

Agreed.

I think this change will only benefit the server going forward.


Di Infernis

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2022, 02:34:48 AM »
Quote
However, to balance this change, we will make it a bit less convenient to travel between Western Barovia and the high level zones. What we really want to avoid is high levels that use Western Barovia as their casual hangout while going on intense dungeon runs far away, so by making back-and-forth travel harder, we hope to limit that whilst not impacting high-levelled characters that reside in West Barovia full time.

Firstly, the Vistani at the Tser Pool will now only sell their elixirs during the daytime and you will be required to consume the elixir on the spot. Secondly, the effect of the elixir will only last until dusk. While this deviates a bit from the official canon description, we find that the approach will generally lend itself well to the setting themes and lore.

I'd like to come back to this point specifically.

I don't necessarily feel that it will limit high levelers from just leaving their barovia rp to instantly run to mist camp day or night. It will still be available to them to go there at any time to join their mist camp buddies and help them do an intensive dungeon run . As Sorin mentioned in the Dev chat on the discord, the power gamers are the ones who tend to be in hurry but I have the impression that their only reflex will be to add one more dungeon to their list ''in the meantime'' to be able to go back in the morning in barovia.

This limits those who have events at certain times in barovia and who by misfortune are not already on site, busy with another event at the port for example or having life schedules preventing them from staying connected long enough to get there in advance.

That's why I would like to suggest some modifications on this system to make it, certainly constraining but not totally blocking the access to those who need to go back to barovia and being ready to make the necessary effort to make the night trip. Because at this time it is just plain impossible to go back and this is more or less a message that if it is 4pm(Ic) at the camp you should immediately leave your current rp to run as fast as possible or afk all night in game if by misfortune you find yourself alone.

The ideas I had or saw are the following.

-Either to increase the price of potions or caravans linked to the level of the person who pays for it. For example to sell the potion at the price of 50/100/150/200? X level or to do the same thing with the caravan.

-To make the mist naviaguable with a way which is a little like the are perfidius or the city lost in the mist.

-Or to add difficult monsters the east barovia at night being higher than their indicated level in order to dissuade people to walk there freely. (Like being able to see the invisible.)

I don't know how viable my options are and for example the second one complicates things a bit with the NCE. These are just my suggestions and concerns about the subject.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 02:39:05 AM by Di Infernis »

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2022, 02:39:09 AM »
This is coming from someone who's only been around for six months. I got the mechanical reason behind wanting to level-gate the introductory zone for the server. It makes sense on paper. But as I've discovered through the absolute uniqueness of Roleplaying on games like this as a whole (This is my first roleplay server for any videogame at all) I've recognized that things being unorthodox and out of the box are what make the server unique.

I still roleplay in Western Barovia because I love it. I wasn't getting exp, but that only mattered so much. I'm notorious in my circles for absolutely hating high level D&D as a whole. But never do I ever want to feel like someone should be prevented from furthering their character - In numbers as well as personality - by the systems involved. Getting EXP through dungeons is one thing, I think it's healthy that there's a cap to that (that you can also accelerate and mitigate) and getting EXP just by talking with others is amazing, so I'm happy that's emphasized.


My point being yes. Reduced RPXP in West Barovia, is a good healthy change. You are rewarding people for continuing life in these places, but still alerting them that their presence might be more desirable elsewhere. Thank you for this change.
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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2022, 02:49:27 AM »
I am really happy about the decision, as someone who doesn't really dungeon much at all anymore and rather focuses on rp. I'm happy there is some reward to being more interested in such in one of the most active areas of the server, for even upper levels.

I do like the idea of scaling the cost of things for upper levels as well. If a ferry cost 250, the elixirs should cost that much if not more.  Along with the time limitations i think are a good small effort of consideration rather than the elixirs and vistani being barely even a thought and always reliable to just be there whenever needed. Id think it should be further built upon as well, upping the cost of caravans as well. And the length of time you are in them.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2022, 02:53:05 AM »
I like this change and look forward to seeing more dwarves in Dvergeheim.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2022, 02:59:57 AM »
I love this change. It supports my play-style (profession-based PCs who operate in specific locations, often in Barovia).
Never really perceived high level loitering as an issue. I police myself, and keep my nose out of things my character wouldn't pay attention to. My higher level PC avoids 'hot spots' for AMPC encounters, won't go out at night unless hidden, and just... let someone else have the torch in DM encounters. Maybe some people like the ego boost? I don't know. I want people around me to enjoy themselves, first and foremost.
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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2022, 03:06:17 AM »
It looks good on paper, and hopefully it pans out to be an overall improvement!

Quote
To make the mist naviaguable with a way which is a little like the are perfidius or the city lost in the mist.
This is already the case, try exploring the other directions than east/west next time you're there. RNG permitting you can go just about anywhere.

Di Infernis

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2022, 03:11:24 AM »
It looks good on paper, and hopefully it pans out to be an overall improvement!

Quote
To make the mist naviaguable with a way which is a little like the are perfidius or the city lost in the mist.
This is already the case, try exploring the other directions than east/west next time you're there. RNG permitting you can go just about anywhere.


But it is impossible to get to the West side of Barovia in this way, which is our subject now. My suggestion was rather to add a new mist area just on the other side of the mist wall, on the map with the door just before the ogres one.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2022, 03:12:33 AM »
I am thrilled, after years and years of asking for RP xp back, even in a limited fashion.

That said, I'm not fond of the lack of choice now. It's a hard gate away during times which could very well impact player focused events and some folks don't get to play as often as others and this could be very detrimental in that regard.

It's not like sithicus where a dungeon is gate kept by time- it's a roleplay hub.

 I'd be more personally in favor of making the elixir far more expensive for the higher levels, or opting to pay a small experience fee to cross at night- something recoverable with an hour or so of this reduced RP experience

Keep the choice present is my ultimate suggestion, but praise be to XP.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2022, 03:27:30 AM »
To be honest I personally didn't care much about the lack of rp xp in Barovia- if I'm spending a lot of time there, chances are I am not going to care that my characters aren't leveling up as fast or at all. But at the same time, as someone who has a character who is stationed there, and likely will continue being stationed there for the foreseeable future (unless an IC event changes the course of the RP) it's nice to have that RP recognized and accepted as such.

I'm not entirely sold on the limiting back and forth between Barovia and Mist Camp, at least in the way presented, but I'm not against it either. My concern would be that it would kind of become a hindrance  rather than a tool to regulate RP. I see some people suggesting to make the elixir more expensive for higher levels, though I am not entirely sure if that would make much of a difference as (at least in my experience) a lot of the higher levels have quite a bit of money to play around with, especially if they're doing dungeons pretty often. So it really might not matter in that aspect for some character. But I'm still pretty new to the server, so this is just from what I have seen so far and I could be completely off base.

Either way, I'm interested in seeing what effect the new changes are going to have, and I hope it goes the way people want it to. Overall, feeling pretty good about the change so far~
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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2022, 03:35:22 AM »
I feel like the change goes in the right direction, however I like infernis suggestion.
As a red vardo, when plots cross domains and interact with Vallaki, I sometimes must head back to lower level zones for RP and it might be an inconvenience to be stopped on my tracks due to the clock (given my limited play time).
A dangerous route through the mists or a pricey alternative for the elixir at night could be an interesting concept. Maybe an option to purchase the "loose" elixir at 200+ coins per level at night as an alternative to drinking it straight away?
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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2022, 03:56:21 AM »
Quote from: Di Infernis

But it is impossible to get to the West side of Barovia in this way, which is our subject now. My suggestion was rather to add a new mist area just on the other side of the mist wall, on the map with the door just before the ogres one.
Entirely correct. That'll teach me to read and post things first thing out of bed in the morning  :mrgreen:

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2022, 03:58:34 AM »
I don't realy bother for the RP xp in barovia. I like RP my evil necromancer in that zone, i had my best moments in barovia. Tho I amb tied off the multiple warnings from dm about people complaining. I had good RP with some people, those they don't rush to OP you and rather extend the scene. Others OP you with no RP you try to OP out, kick their ass because lvl diference and a few days after mister dm comes to warn you, ban you or whatever. I don't see any problem with high lvl playing in barovia, in time i have learned with Who can you play or not. on the contrarie i prefer high lvls playing in barovia  It makes things more interesting.  Going back to the changes for people with high OCR going by day light to barovia sounds not factible. "We"tend to visit outskirts at night.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 04:11:43 AM by pipilanstrum »

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2022, 04:02:48 AM »
I understand that whatever decision in this direction, the blanket will always be too short.

A decision need to accommodate those who:

- stay in Vallaki because their character makes sense only in Vallaki even if they are high level (faction/love interest/concept/etc)
- those enjoying dungeoneering, both high and low level
- those low level that are still building their relationship with other characters and the module, including interactions with (A)MPCs
- etc.

Someone will find themselves inconvenienced.

Now, I do understand that in order to respect the module, moving around should not be easy. But as someone mentioned, the problem is time. Doing the "Barovian run" is all time detracted to RP. You will have the numbers to back or roll back on you decision, but it is my opinion that making everyone waste their time will not solve the problem.

The original sin is that there is no high medieval fantasy hub for higher level characters. As everybody knows, Port is a strongly characterized place that simply will not fit every character concept, class, race etc. Since Marcelia started building and re-building the Wreckage by the area in front of the Vardo, there is more people RPing there than in Port at any given time, even if that place should be a weird, eerie, ghastly nonplace at arm's length by the most mysterious entity of the server: this because the Wreckage is a better option than Port to many, many characters. There is no alternative to Vallaki at present, as a place to RP. And hindering movement for everyone is a non solution, as for my own characters all it could do would be forcing myself in a location where i don't want to stay, and high level might bring their own confrontational RP in a low level place.

But maybe i will be wrong and this is what was needed.


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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2022, 04:28:23 AM »
"You can now get minor rp xp in Barovia at all levels, but as a consequence we will now inhibit ease of travel to find more roleplay elsewhere."

We ask for roleplay to be rewarded on a roleplay server for years, get continually denied.
And when the change is finally granted, it has to come with some sort of way to punish roleplay in another way? lmao

I agree with the suggestion of just upping the cost of Elixirs for high level characters instead of this.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2022, 04:37:51 AM »
There's absolutely no element of punishment in this, lmao.

Upping the cost of elixirs will have marginal impact on high levels, but hurt the lower levels and those that rarely dungeon the most. Generally, for the same reason, gold cost is rarely a very good way of shaping gameplay.

And in the end, as long as you roleplay along the way, you rarely need to hurry. It's the road, not just the destination. Experiencing the road matters too.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2022, 05:00:56 AM »
This a good change, and a victory for those who've wanted RP XP everywhere anywhere, I think it's more then worth the added inconvenience (All though the boat not running at night already triggers me) A few of the reasons why I've always stayed in Barovia is first of all it's my favourite setting. And I've never accepted having to stay lower level to remain there I like progressing and working towards something and once that goal is taken away from me I'll just find some other way of achieving it.

I've never been able to find much roleplay in Port during EU hours, and I'm talking when I get home from work around 17:00 GMT+2 (Turns into GMT+1 in October) nor does it suit my character most of the time which is completely fine. We all like different things I do remember quite enjoying it when I'm on holiday can stay up to 3 am my time.

The mist camp roleplay has rarely drawn me in either, all though I do enjoy spending a little time there it's mostly used as hub for me to find some good companions to venture out with. And I found the activity rather variable there's always people there and then sometimes it's randomly completely dead.

I've always felt that being forced to the mist camp and port has been unfair on EU players and then I mean the EU players that can't/won't break their sleep schedule just to be able to enjoy the roleplay. And this is a step towards at least putting a Band-Aid on that so consider me very happy!

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2022, 05:01:49 AM »
*Redacted* I've misread initial post
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 06:46:34 AM by Disorder »

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2022, 05:31:57 AM »
There's absolutely no element of punishment in this, lmao.

Upping the cost of elixirs will have marginal impact on high levels, but hurt the lower levels and those that rarely dungeon the most. Generally, for the same reason, gold cost is rarely a very good way of shaping gameplay.

And in the end, as long as you roleplay along the way, you rarely need to hurry. It's the road, not just the destination. Experiencing the road matters too.

My main problem with this, is that if you're someone who can play in bursts of time, who works and leads a busy scheduled life, a significant portion of your time could be spent waiting for a 45-minute night cycle to pass. The idea of limiting things to day/night cycles is always bad for people with real lives and schedules to keep, because it eats heavily into an already limited timeframe.

On the flip side, this wouldn't actually stop people from coming into Barovia for casual RP and then exiting to a Dungeon. It just means that they'd have to time their return just like anything else in Barovia's Day/Night cycle.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2022, 05:32:35 AM »
Thanks for trying something new, best to see how it goes for a bit.

I anticipate there's going to be some depressed folk who miss their timing to pass the wall and then have to wait the 72min until they can try again, but it does seem like an efficient way to stop people from travelling at night, and directionally only dissuades those that are more travelled as it were.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2022, 05:46:19 AM »
I was joking on the discord about mistwalking rather than wait but... could you keep the mistway at tser pool open for those that'd rather walk their way than take the bus?


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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2022, 05:48:22 AM »

My main problem with this, is that if you're someone who can play in bursts of time, who works and leads a busy scheduled life, a significant portion of your time could be spent waiting for a 45-minute night cycle to pass. The idea of limiting things to day/night cycles is always bad for people with real lives and schedules to keep, because it eats heavily into an already limited timeframe.
...

I can definitely sympathize with the frustrations of having to wait when your time is limited, but the main point here is to make travelling between Western Barovia and the high level areas less trivial to do and something you don't do frequently, but rather with some planning ahead and as the exception. The aim is still to somewhat isolate the low level from the high level zones, but now just better support those that choose to generally stay in Western Barovia even if their levels may have exceeded the target group.

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Re: Comments and discussion revolving the roleplay XP change
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2022, 06:08:20 AM »
Great change. I was always of the opinion that RP XP should be given in at least some areas in West Borovia.

However, the concerns mentioned by others above about real-life time limitations and not wanting to waste precious RP time waiting for an NPCS are valid.

I have a suggestion that may seem a bit extreme, but for some reason it works in my head:

Have the Vistani only sell one potion every 24 real life hours (more or less, exact number can be decided by the team). And the PC must drink it at the spot.

Other NPCS, such as Liz in the Morninglord Sanctuary, already have a "real time clock" limit with their services, so I am assuming this shouldn't be too difficult on the dev side.

This solution, in my opinion, makes travel between West Barovia and the rest of the world more difficult and less trivial, but it also allows a player to plan his RP sessions ahead of time and not rely on the game clock and unfortunate log in times.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 06:10:24 AM by Zakas »