Author Topic: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles  (Read 1323 times)

HouseOfLament

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2022, 09:01:55 AM »
All the complexity serves the same purpose as slang: to allow those in the know signal their position as an insider while giving outsiders no choice but to out themselves as such.  I don't ever see this going away in a setting like Dementlieu.  It's a feature, not a bug.  Codifying it into a style guide however does have the advantage of consistency.  There are certain players who can make their own mistakes seem rather cool and like something you'd want to do, yourself.  Hopefully it will make things easier for established players.

This style guide for roleplaying as Invictus in Vampire: the Requiem should hopefully be a good starting point: https://blood-and-bourbon.obsidianportal.com/wikis/invictus-etiquette-and-titles (see section Titles and Offices)
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2022, 01:51:25 PM »
The opening post is literally:

Quote
I've been playing in Port-a-Lucine for years now, and one thing that I still have trouble handling are the titles and hwo [sic] to properly address people.

Learning D&D system is nothing to sneeze at, but brings mechanical advantages across the whole board, indipendently from your goals as a player and character.

This to me seems like an artificial, arbitrary, unrealistic, non-canon, barrier to entry. The fact that historical Port players are very gracious in letting things slide is but only a symptom that this is not that important to uphold as a rule as could be any other in the D&D ruleset such as attack rolls, or stealth checks.

I'm not sure how they have trouble handling these things, as it's explicitly stated and outlined in the Guide. Again; Someone else not able to do their homework isn't a cause to lower the standard for the entire class. It's part of the charm of the setting, and while maybe it's not in the Gazetteer, it is part of this campaign setting on PoTM by choice.

Ravenloft on PnP loses the complexity of setting that PoTM has because PoTM has to create something sustainable, whereas the campaign books for PnP weren't. They were intended to be shallow worlds to live in while directly interacting with, and pursuing the undoing of their Dark Lords. They were never really intended to create characters who will have to find a way to integrate and exist within a setting for years of roleplay. These choices are made to facilitate that, and I personally agree with them, as would most people who play in Port; Because as I've mentioned before, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to gain familiarity with the system of titles, it just takes someone willing to learn them. If they aren't willing to raise themselves up to that standard, or at least try, then I'm not sure if they're making a gainful contribution to the server any more than someone who is unwilling to adequately research their ECL Subrace that they want to play.

That might sound exclusionary, but it's true. There's nothing stopping them from making a Commoner, or asking for help understanding titles from another player, or just reading the guide. It's not complicated. It's really not. It's also only mandatory if you're trying to play the socialite game, which is only mandatory for concepts who want to gain social status or standing. It couldn't apply less to people who don't care about gaining titles themselves, because who's going to care or expect better from them?

Anastian

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2022, 02:56:36 PM »
As an ex pnp DM I dissent on your take of the sourcebooks being shallow. They are explicitly made to let your imagination run wild.

I also dissent on the idea of people enjoying playing without ambition, also as commoners outside of the socialite game, as characters like the de Bellevance sisters existed and they stirred the Dementlieuse landscape, same with other commoner characters who would not play the retainer aide as a key concept.

I agree, once more, that title should stay as is and that it is part of the shape of the domain and it's good to keep that as a soft barrier for the setting. This said, I still believe that in a game with profound interaction, there should be room for everyone (even as people who oppose to the status quo) in Dementlieu.

I hope we can agree on having different standings on the subject, but I am a fervent supporter of having anyone try and see how their concept fits in Port and getting slapped for it too. It's part of the game.
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yinyang

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2022, 03:03:04 PM »
The opening post is literally:

Quote
I've been playing in Port-a-Lucine for years now, and one thing that I still have trouble handling are the titles and hwo [sic] to properly address people.

Learning D&D system is nothing to sneeze at, but brings mechanical advantages across the whole board, indipendently from your goals as a player and character.

This to me seems like an artificial, arbitrary, unrealistic, non-canon, barrier to entry. The fact that historical Port players are very gracious in letting things slide is but only a symptom that this is not that important to uphold as a rule as could be any other in the D&D ruleset such as attack rolls, or stealth checks.

I'm not sure how they have trouble handling these things, as it's explicitly stated and outlined in the Guide. Again; Someone else not able to do their homework isn't a cause to lower the standard for the entire class....

...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to gain familiarity with the system of titles, it just takes someone willing to learn them. If they aren't willing to raise themselves up to that standard, or at least try, then I'm not sure if they're making a gainful contribution to the server any more than someone who is unwilling to adequately research their ECL Subrace that they want to play.

That might sound exclusionary, but it's true....It's not complicated. It's really not...

Have a look at this wording. I mean, really look at it. It's the most honest explanation of the reason Port is so divisive.

In this thread: People who have been playing in Port for years, have a ton of French memorized and are fully integrated into its norms, telling people who find it challenging or confusing that it's easy. Whatever happened to putting ourselves in someone else's shoes?

I would encourage people to step back and consider the perspective of those who haven't spent the last 5+ years memorizing lines of French, and how it might feel for others to have a special higher degree of often insider knowledge necessary to RP in an area they are constantly shamed by the mechanics and "high levels get out of Barovia" threads into going to.

I've noticed that for Port regulars, "catching" non-regulars or newcomers making mistakes seems to be an eager past-time, while becoming a lot more lax about enforcing social norms despite NPCs being around. I think it's a mistake and frankly a bit insulting to the rest of the player base to treat the community as if its "standards" are "lower" and people must "be willing to raise themselves to the standard" to engage in a bit of noble RP. When non-Port regulars aren't around, Port regulars start acting just like everyone else.

I don't have an opinion on the titles itself, but this isn't how we should talk about each other just because we are more learning doing something they aren't.
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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2022, 03:07:47 PM »
Have a look at this wording. I mean, really look at it. It's the most honest explanation of the reason Port is so divisive.

In this thread: People who have been playing in Port for years, have a ton of French memorized and are fully integrated into its norms, telling people who find it challenging or confusing that it's easy. Whatever happened to putting ourselves in someone else's shoes?

I would encourage people to step back and consider the perspective of those who haven't spent the last 5+ years memorizing lines of French, and how it might feel for others to have a special higher degree of often insider knowledge necessary to RP in an area they are constantly shamed by the mechanics and "high levels get out of Barovia" threads into going to.

I've noticed that for Port regulars, "catching" non-regulars or newcomers making mistakes seems to be an eager past-time, while becoming a lot more lax about enforcing social norms despite NPCs being around. I think it's a mistake and frankly a bit insulting to the rest of the player base to treat the community as if its "standards" are "lower" and people must "be willing to raise themselves to the standard" to engage in a bit of noble RP. When non-Port regulars aren't around, Port regulars start acting just like everyone else.

I don't have an opinion on the titles itself, but this isn't how we should talk about each other just because we are more learning doing something they aren't.

With respect, it doesn't take 5 years to learn just about everything you need to know. All of it can probably fit on one side of one sheet of standard sized paper and can be learned in about an hour at most. I've only played on the server for little over a year, made Port the main place I play, and just immersed. Without even taking an IC etiquette lesson I absorbed everything I needed.

In my experience most PCs are very accommodating to other PCs provided it's clear that their only crime is ignorance and not willing disrespect. This domain is not Barovia, the rules and oppression are different, but in many respects it is easier for humans and select other races to get by.
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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2022, 03:26:34 PM »
While a lot of people throw French words into their dialogue, you definitely are not as a player required to know any French words at all.  That is what the [HM] tag is for and if your character wishes to be involved enough in Port-a-Lucine to learn the language and thus have the tag, that's all that matters.  If someone uses a word you don't know you can simply ask them in a Tell to translate it.  If they try and make a snide remark about you ICly despite you having the language tag, that'd be something worth reporting to a DM, I imagine, as it's quite clearly an OOCly motivated act of trolling.

There's a lot of tone in this thread that definitely isn't needed, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest it takes more than a couple of days to read over the Port-a-Lucine Guide written by Arawn and have enough understanding to proceed fairly smoothly.



BraveSirRobin

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2022, 03:48:31 PM »
The opening post is literally:

Quote
I've been playing in Port-a-Lucine for years now, and one thing that I still have trouble handling are the titles and hwo [sic] to properly address people.

Learning D&D system is nothing to sneeze at, but brings mechanical advantages across the whole board, indipendently from your goals as a player and character.

This to me seems like an artificial, arbitrary, unrealistic, non-canon, barrier to entry. The fact that historical Port players are very gracious in letting things slide is but only a symptom that this is not that important to uphold as a rule as could be any other in the D&D ruleset such as attack rolls, or stealth checks.

I'm not sure how they have trouble handling these things, as it's explicitly stated and outlined in the Guide. Again; Someone else not able to do their homework isn't a cause to lower the standard for the entire class....

...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to gain familiarity with the system of titles, it just takes someone willing to learn them. If they aren't willing to raise themselves up to that standard, or at least try, then I'm not sure if they're making a gainful contribution to the server any more than someone who is unwilling to adequately research their ECL Subrace that they want to play.

That might sound exclusionary, but it's true....It's not complicated. It's really not...

Have a look at this wording. I mean, really look at it. It's the most honest explanation of the reason Port is so divisive.

In this thread: People who have been playing in Port for years, have a ton of French memorized and are fully integrated into its norms, telling people who find it challenging or confusing that it's easy. Whatever happened to putting ourselves in someone else's shoes?

I would encourage people to step back and consider the perspective of those who haven't spent the last 5+ years memorizing lines of French, and how it might feel for others to have a special higher degree of often insider knowledge necessary to RP in an area they are constantly shamed by the mechanics and "high levels get out of Barovia" threads into going to.

I've noticed that for Port regulars, "catching" non-regulars or newcomers making mistakes seems to be an eager past-time, while becoming a lot more lax about enforcing social norms despite NPCs being around. I think it's a mistake and frankly a bit insulting to the rest of the player base to treat the community as if its "standards" are "lower" and people must "be willing to raise themselves to the standard" to engage in a bit of noble RP. When non-Port regulars aren't around, Port regulars start acting just like everyone else.

I don't have an opinion on the titles itself, but this isn't how we should talk about each other just because we are more learning doing something they aren't.

It didn't take five years of being in Port to learn titles, it took me a few days to get the basic understanding, and a month or two of active immersion to get it down patent. My tone derives because I refuse to believe anyone in this community is incapable of understanding the basics of the setting, to such a degree, that it should be dumbed down for their sake. If that isn't their idea of fun roleplay; They're playing the wrong characters, and if they aren't a Noble, the majority of this doesn't even apply to them. Nobles by their nature, sneer and look down on anything that isn't them; If they don't find a reason to trip you up over your usage of titles, all they have to say is that you're of lower breeding and unfit for their presence. They aren't known for their inclusiveness, what with numerous clubs in the setting being exclusive to the Nobility, their big wall in the Savant that separates the poors from the rich, or the utter state of the lower-districts versus the upper. Nobility isn't just a title, or a pat-on-the-back, Nobles are raised from birth into a system of decorum, of secular polity, and the degree this is polarizing for them and the common man is the bedrock of most stories of class wars. Representing a small fraction of that investment by learning a handful of titles, and addresses, is not beyond what could be expected of someone to represent a member of a different social class that cares more about the appearance, and address, than the merit or means.

This isn't Port players being mean. This is pointing out that the mountain that is being made of this molehill is unnecessary. This is why I say there's not a great barrier to entry. If they aren't interested in learning the one-sheet guide, then they can always play a part of a different social class. If they are having trouble learning it, there are a great number of players who are active in Port, who are happy to help you learn it. You can engage in Noble RP, and not fully understand the titleage, but if you want to play a Noble, there's a standard that should be upheld.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 03:51:41 PM by BraveSirRobin »

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2022, 03:59:48 PM »
A reminder to those engaging in this thread, be courteous to another and constructive, tone the heat down.
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Gabriel d’Aubry

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Re: Proposal: Reviewing Dementlieu's nobility titles
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2022, 04:03:43 PM »
Thank you for your response yinyang. And do keep in mind that the opinion of some people who have posted here isn't he opinion of all the players who play in Dementlieu. Please don't stop from coming to give Port-a-Lucine a try because of the comments of some players here in the thread.

I can understand that some of the norms might feel different in Port than in Barovia, and as the current most "in-view" Gendarme currently in Port-a-Lucine, I can assure you that everyone gets the same threatment from me! Old and new players alike need to follow the decorum and what is expected of them. It isn't something only pushed on the new players. We are also pretty acceptive and we always like to see new people to try and come to Port and fit in. There is many ways to get involved right now, and I really wish more people would give it a try!

Other than Bonjour, Mademoiselle and Monsieur, there isn't many french words that are used during the RP.

Also, this has really derailed from the main point of titles. Can we go back to it please?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 04:05:33 PM by Gabriel d’Aubry »