Tailoring Feedback

[Dardonas]

The experience gains are far too small for clothes, hoods, and cloaks.

The crafting materials required for tailoring are not very economical.  It takes a solid 1-2 hours to get a full bag of a textile material.  It takes 4 of a textile material to yield one fabric.  It takes 2 of the fabrics for hoods and cloaks and 1 of those fabrics for hoods.  You only get 15-25 xp per successful hood/cloak/clothing.

The only way to level tailoring reliably seems to be using slings.

Slings require hide curing.

Early levels of hide curing are far too slow.  Killing 30 deer only yields you around 100-200 crafting xp at best.


Suggestions:

- Clothes should yield 5x or 10x the xp gains they do currently. 

- Patterned fabrics should only require 2 textile materials instead of 4.

- Hide curing should yield 2x-5x what it currently does in xp.

- Hide curing should yield more leather patches.


Edit, added here for posterity:

I have recorded some data for my detractors who are stating that tailoring is fine as is with its gains.  It is not.  Please review the numbers and discussion below in comparison to other crafts.  Thank you.

Recorded Observations:

Making a clothing chest piece using Satin Patterned Silk with Ettercap Threading yielded me around ~45 cxp, at a DC 23 with a (9 + 0 + 2 + 4).

Making a clothing chest piece using Twill Patterned Silk with Ettercap Threading yielded me ~55 cxp at a DC 26 with a (9 + 0 + 2 + 4).

Making a clothing chest piece with Muslin Patterned Silk WITHOUT threading yielded me 21 cxp at a DC 23 with a (9 + 0 + 2 + 4).

Making a clothing chest piece with Muslin Patterned Silk with Ettercap Threading yielded me ~60 cxp at a DC 28 with a (9 + 0 + 2 + 4).

Consider that the patterns each take 4 pieces of silk for each bolt, the threading takes 2 materials for each thread.  Then, considering that chest pieces require 2 bolts of patterned silk and 1 threading, that is a total of 10 materials for each chest piece. 

In comparison to slings, a DC 22 sling at a (9 + 0 + 2 + 4) earns me around ~30-40 cxp for a total of 5 materials (4 of an elastic textile, and 1 leather patch). 

Note: A tailoring chest pieces costs 10 materials and yields around 30-40 cxp at a 40-50% success chance.  A smithing chest piece (full plate) costs 9 materials and yields around 150-200 cxp at a 40-50% success chance. 


Discussion

One thing to consider about smithing over tailoring is that mining is much more freely available than acquiring textile materials.

On ore:
- Ore is always available, no matter the season.
- Ore can be mined again after 15 minutes of a reset.
- Ore is always in a static location.
- Vein nodes yield 8-20 ore, seams can yield ~20-60 (estimate).

On textiles:
- More elaborate textiles are behind complex dungeons requiring multiple wards.
- Goats/Rabbits/Spiders/Mummies/Dread Treants have their own spawns that diminish after they are killed, down to "no spawn" of 0.
- Wooly Goats in Hazlan wander and can be anywhere in the entirety of Hazlan.
- Herb nodes only yields 1 textile per herb node; herb nodes are not guaranteed finds.
- Creature nodes yield 1-2 textiles per creature drop (3 for ettercap); creatures spawn in clusters of 1-5 (yielding 10 textiles at max).


New Recommendations

- Tailoring clothes should yield 100-200 cxp per successfully tailored chest piece (similar to smithing).
- Spawns for wool should be increased and have a set spawn rate rather than a low spawn, max spawn system.
- Herb node spawns for textiles should yield multiple textiles (2-4) more.

A "take it or leave it" suggestion I might have as well is having it so that there are "farming patches" similar to seams where you can "mine" textiles like flax and cotton using a tool like a hoe or a scythe.

[Skelni]

This is coming from a first-timer with the new tailoring rework, and my breakdown of the system - I had never used the old just for reference.

Functionally the core of the problem lies with how material usage and how EXP is gained. If you smelt one copper ore, you get one copper ingot, which you can use to make something that takes one copper. All of that is a single material used so you get the x1 rate of EXP. If you did it with two, then it'd be x2 EXP the rate, so forth and so forth.

The issue arises in that for weaving. You need for, let's say a hood - 1 Bolt of cloth. Which is 4 units of some kind of weaving material. Well you get the appropriate weaving exp, but when you go to making the actual hood, it's only counting as 1 piece of material used, not the 4 you put into the bolt originally. If it were to give x4 EXP instead then it would be in line with the other crafts because it all works on that same fundamental.

Hence why slings are regarded as the best option for EXP in tailoring because it counts as 3 separate materials all being used for one thing, so you're getting that x3 rate. (also essentially at the same cost as what a hood would cost you so...)


Just make bolts of cloth used give you x4 the EXP rate. Same logic should apply for things like threads which are 2 materials used as well. Blah blah. You get my point.

[ladylena]

I agree the tailoring rework is.... Not great. I've made way more hoods and cloaks and countless failed attempts that I'm still at level 1, yet gained a few levels weaving while still struggling to increase the tailoring level.

Personally regarding the amount of material to make things, I think that's fine. However there does seem to be some sort of disconnect between tailoring and other crafts. Weaving, while costly, seems to gain levels much faster than tailoring. And I recall in the past from my experiences with herbalism and alchemy, and smithing, even those gain levels faster. Heck I managed to get a character to have several levels in smithing with only making arrow heads.

I love the way it's set up that you need to have the woven fabric, it gives people a chance IC to sell the fabric that's already woven so people can tailor independant of weaving. I love the amount it takes to make a bolt of cloth and even the DCs are good. The issue seems to linger around the experience gain in the tailoring craft.

[NacreCicatrix]

Can confirm. After a mammoth investment in materials, my PC is at 18 weaving... and 3 tailoring. I can't use the sling strategy (not that I had any idea about it) because he won't participate in harming animals. I don't have a cheat sheet for the craft, either, so I'm winging it.  It's been an absolute slog.

[JustMonika]

I previously tailored under the old system. I found the new system sufficently complicated I no longer wanted to engage with it.

I suspect however, I am simply not the target audience and have accepted that.

[Lex Talionis]

I've enjoyed the new system. I like the complexity. I do not like how long it takes to level tailoring. It's disproportionate to it's partner, weaving.  The amount of material to level up is rather obscene. I think I did the math a while back and it was somewhere in the range of multiple hundred pieces of fiber just to go up one level early on.

[RedMoney]

Gaining significant tailoring XP requires using embroidery threads.

[zDark Shadowz]

This is coming from a first-timer with the new tailoring rework,

Hence why slings are regarded as the best option for EXP in tailoring because it counts as 3 separate materials all being used for one thing, so you're getting that x3 rate. (also essentially at the same cost as what a hood would cost you so...)

Seems about on par with other crafts. Woodworking is pretty good when you're dealing with composite longbows of variable horns, Leatherworking easier to tolerate with making chitin full-plates of various linings.

There's more XP to be had and more time saved making 1x of a 4x cost item than 4x of a 1x cost item, even if they are the same DC, usually. Potions of Heal used to give pretty insane herbalism XP when it took 8x herbs.

Gaining significant tailoring XP requires using embroidery threads.

I'll keep this in mind, thanks. I think I have an 11 tailoring score from before the change, tips like making slings and using embroidery, ways to add or have more materials per craft have always universally been the best way to level any of the skills.

High material resource risk has always yielded the better XP in a craft.

- Hide curing should yield 2x-5x what it currently does in xp.

- Hide curing should yield more leather patches.

When it comes to these precursor crafts, the intent isn't to always have 100% efficiency, so these have always been slow.

That being said, different types of hides yield different quantities. Deer and squirrel pelts don't really do much compared to bears and dire wolves, worgs etc. I don't have the exact numbers, but I think ancient dire bear used to spit out 6 patches of leather, at a DC of 25 or 30 to cure, and this was before the change to hide curing that lowered the DCs and made them a lot easier to cure (and thus already received a buff to quantity gained per collected batch once so far).

The early levels, to be honest, suck. I agree there. But it speeds up very quickly once you're out of it.

Early levels are the gatekeeping levels of time to prevent too many masters. I don't agree with it... i'd rather use the skillpoint system that taxxed the characters' build so they only had to worry about overall levelling up and roleplay to get better... but the current design intent is that everyone can become a master at anything, and it is meant to be gatekept by people that have the hours to put into the monotonous tasks and the roleplay of creating sustainable business models among the playerbase to include everyone.

If you want to level up superquick in crafts, a team of people need to invest into one person. Muse fits this intent, which is likely why it was added. Multiple people inhibiting their own skill progress to assist another by committing their invested collection time and materials toward one person also follows the design intent, so it's unlikely to change.

[Skelni]

This is coming from a first-timer with the new tailoring rework,

Hence why slings are regarded as the best option for EXP in tailoring because it counts as 3 separate materials all being used for one thing, so you're getting that x3 rate. (also essentially at the same cost as what a hood would cost you so...)

Seems about on par with other crafts. Woodworking is pretty good when you're dealing with composite longbows of variable horns, Leatherworking easier to tolerate with making chitin full-plates of various linings.

There's more XP to be had and more time saved making 1x of a 4x cost item than 4x of a 1x cost item, even if they are the same DC, usually. Potions of Heal used to give pretty insane herbalism XP when it took 8x herbs.

The difference here is you don't get a choice. There is no craftable item like that of smithing to use one bar, two bar, so on and so on. Your only choice is to use a much larger amount of material than other crafts for less gain. There is no 1:1 option in Tailoring. It is all more materials for less gain.

Just for quick math sakes: To reach level 2 in a craft that's 1000 exp. If we're talking only successes here, that can be 100 copper ingots for 100 DC 10 stacks of bullets or something. Or 67 DC 15 woundwart for cure light wounds potions.

For tailoring, a basic hood, which is DC 10. It's 400 Flax, or Wool or any material of your choice. For only 100 hoods.

Even if you choose the sling route. That's still half of the exp you would get using any amount of the same materials for other crafts. Same applies to using exotic threads. You use up 2 materials to make a thread. Yet the thread when used only gives you and extra x1 EXP, not x2.

[apeppertoo]

Tailoring is really awful to level and I started, pre-revamp, at 12 with a +6 cha mod. I've posted on this at length elsewhere. +1 to the thrust of the thread: CXP gains need to be dramatically increased.

[zDark Shadowz]

Having only done the other crafts like hide curing, smithing, leatherworking, woodworking, I didn't realise that tailoring seems to be as comparably bad as cutting chitin plates.

Ok.

My point still partially stands for how to make it better for oneself, but I can't refute other peoples opinions on tailoring itself being awful.

Hide curing, as a separate thing, has already been buffed at least once in terms of material gain, xp and overall accessibility, and I'm happy with where that sits.

[MAB77]

I'll look into the xp gain. But tell me are you using a secondary component or just bolts of fabrics?

[Dardonas]

I personally was just using bolts of fabrics for most of mine, with no embroidery.  HOWEVER, I did use ettercap silk threading and still did not get noticeable gains with plain unpatterned fabrics.  The only good experience gains was, indeed, from slings.

[Skelni]

I'll look into the xp gain. But tell me are you using a secondary component or just bolts of fabrics?

As I leveled all the way to 40+ I'll try and give my notes here.

Being that there's only four things we can make the list is pretty simple. It's how we stumbled onto Slings being the most efficient use of materials to begin with. And I experimented with it quite greatly during my journey. Also this was BEFORE the DC crunching for whatever relevance that has, but the breakdown is pretty simple:


Hoods with one bolt is x1 the EXP rate. So if you were to do a DC 10 hood at level 1 or 0, you'd just get like 11 exp or whatever. Use a secondary component (the exotic threads) and you'd get x2 the EXP. So 22 or some such.

Clothing and Cloaks both need two bolts of fabric so that's always going to be x2 the rate. Then we add on exotic thread, that's x3. (And with the change that cloaks and clothes no longer need two thread materials, we can't reach x4 anymore.)

Slings require two (which still is 4 of a material in total) cords and one leather patch. No additional pieces can be added so this is always x3.


So when it all comes together. We go with slings, not because of leather or whatnot - But because making two cords requires only four of, say Flax. Whereas no matter what, hood clothes and cloaks will always take more, it always ends up being for less. Stacking on threads will make it more efficient but this really only helps out minorly with silk and such - Anything that can't be made into cords essentially.

Given that other crafts for the most part exchange all their materials with experience at a 1:1 ration (Katana takes 4 ingots, gives you x4 the exp rate). It would make sense that bolts of cloth do the same right? (4 flax goes into one bolt of cloth, that one bolt of cloth should be x4 at that rate). Or if that's too much then, some kind of boost at least right?

The DC Crunch had the side affect of making leveling even longer because a lot of the clothes and slings are now easier to make, so you can't reach as high a level now really. Case in point, all the tailors I knew leveling up, are still the only ones I know of. Most people I've tried to teach the system, give up part way through and pursue other crafts.

[Kireek]

I can to some extent understand the frustration that making hoods is not super productive..

But the sling things is a feature, not a detriment to leveling, its the easiest way to get a thread, is resource efficient..

and perhaps more importantly, is the cheapest option by far at higher skill levels..

[Lex Talionis]

I'll look into the xp gain. But tell me are you using a secondary component or just bolts of fabrics?

Weaving levels up really well, really smoothly.  Tailoring however does not. It requires, as mentioned 400 of an item to go from 1 to 2, another 400 to go from 2-3 and so on.  The issue is that adding materials increases the DC which means you're failing more often which then increases the amount of aforementioned materials for each failure.  I think it'd make a big difference if hoods went from 10xp to say 15xp. It's a small amount, but it adds up quick.

[Skelni]

I can to some extent understand the frustration that making hoods is not super productive..

But the sling things is a feature, not a detriment to leveling, its the easiest way to get a thread, is resource efficient..

and perhaps more importantly, is the cheapest option by far at higher skill levels..

But it's not resource efficient. It merely alleviates the problem. I keep bringing up my examples but other crafts have other recipes that are literally one to one with the material used and experience gained from. Slings should be x5 EXP by that logic but they're only x3. You are still losing and using more materials than other crafts.

[Kireek]

But it's not resource efficient. It merely alleviates the problem. I keep bringing up my examples but other crafts have other recipes that are literally one to one with the material used and experience gained from. Slings should be x5 EXP by that logic but they're only x3. You are still losing and using more materials than other crafts.

Its definitely the most efficient way of leveling tailoring. And getting threads is ussually one of the most labor intensive parts of doing regular clothing.. and yet you can just do regular hides into dire hides into white stags and get to a pretty high end level with just slings- switching between wool and flax as appropriate. And each hide provides 2-5 patchs, which is 2-5 slings, so instead of needing 5 weaving mats and 1 random mat, you need 4 weaving mats and 1/2 to 1/5 of another mat.

I've done the whole shebang, I'm high level, its slings, its always been slings.

10 slings at needing a 10 - a decent attribute modifer will get you 330 xp- which is flax or wool 40 mats- 80 if you have regular luck.

I have a +0 in hide curing for goodness sakes from attributes and didn't even need help with hide curing, once I got to end game hides, I got help, but up to that point, the highest dc you ever need to beat for slings is 15. I'm not joking. You never need to beat more than a dc 15 to get high end crafting mats for slings- except for the rarest stuff- like maybe kinda, getting near end game level equipment  stuff.

[ladylena]

I'll look into the xp gain. But tell me are you using a secondary component or just bolts of fabrics?

At level 1 tailoring there is no way to succeed with those so you just end up failing more and loosing more resources. I tried several linen and copper threads but I dont think there was much difference, albeit I did not look at the exp before and after but can next time I get some to try

[MatticusCaesar]

I'll add this from my own perspective:

The weaving portion, as Traveler previously stated, levels up relatively smoothly as you work through it.

My main crafter, who was first and foremost a tailor when he started, had maxed out at level 40 under the old system. 

The climb from 40-50, however, has proven very difficult.  There's currently only one kind of exotic thread you can use to progress.  There was a midway method that helped, but since garments and accessories made from silk bolts ware normalized to be the same DC as the other 3 core fibers, there are now no alternative options that I have seen.

This is probably OK at those upper tiers.  It does generate a fair bit of RP trying to be successful, but if the progress is indeed this tough at the lower tiers, then yeah, it might need a little adjusting.

[noah25]

I have a very different perspective than the majority posting so far on this thread.

Tailoring was stupidly easy before. You could quite literally just buy levels in tailoring in the old system. It also produced significantly worse gear. In my mind, the new tailoring system produces better gear than any other craft in the item slots it encompasses (my goodness if you were a monk you used to pray for +1 robes and now someone could saturate the market with them if they wanted to). There have been several threads of people complaining about the bonuses from a combat perspective but post enchanting the skill bonuses you get are absurd.

I think for the reward it is sufficiently difficult ( leveling haks like the slings is true in every craft people just don't tend to catch on to them for some reason). If anything I would say tailoring is perfect and weaving is way too easy. You can level up weaving with basically zero effort I imagine this was to satisfy players who had mastered tailoring in the old system.

I would leave it exactly as it is. Im level 18 grinding my way up and loving it.

[noah25]

I personally was just using bolts of fabrics for most of mine, with no embroidery.  HOWEVER, I did use ettercap silk threading and still did not get noticeable gains with plain unpatterned fabrics.  The only good experience gains was, indeed, from slings.

Theres also some good sense in understanding how xp gains works with the crafting system in general. Im a big fan of keeping crafting secrets RPed or discovered rather than blurted out, but you are probably crafting harder instead of smarter.

[NacreCicatrix]

here make 1000 of a small simple wepon that can potentially be used as lingerie

congrats u can now make ornate tailored outfits

[cooachlyfe]

here make 1000 of a small simple wepon that can potentially be used as lingerie

congrats u can now make ornate tailored outfits

+1

[Kireek]

here make 1000 of a small simple wepon that can potentially be used as lingerie

congrats u can now make ornate tailored outfits

Here make 500 copper arrow heads, you can now make a plate.



Crafting is illogical by its very nature, I'm sorry that one of the methods is inefficient, but it just is by its very design, even if it got more xp, it'd still be worse than slingsb ecuase it still requires 5 weaving fabric  +1 other material, versus 4 + 1/2 or 1/5. Unless there is just a sheer overhaul of how tailoring works period with fabrics and what not, this is just the most efficient way.

Even if you buffed hood xp, it would still be worse becuase there is no way anyone could agree to letting you make 2+ threads from one bar of metal.

Just lean into it, and be happy there IS an efficient way. Seriously.