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Author Topic: Black Blade cheese  (Read 1727 times)

noah25

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2022, 05:49:03 PM »
it also just kills me that casters are so disproportionately desirable, yet you sit around in MC with nothing to do with 12 people because you cant find a wizard.

Well, to be fair, if casters can solo content, it'd stand to reason they wouldn't be waiting in the MC for a party but would likely be out there soloing, so that argument proves nothing. Actually, looking at numbers, pure wizards are the most popular class on the server, followed closely by clerics. They're an extremely powerful class with essentially no real RP restrictions, unlike druids or paladins.

Your logic only works under the premise they would rather solo than adventure. Not solo because they didn't find a party. I don't know anyone who would rather go blow up trees for the 6000th time than actually go somewhere in a group.

Also raw number doesn't mean anything its a proportion issue. The character being in existance doesn't indicate anything regarding making parties. The reality is if you walk through the mist camp looking for a party, at least in the times I play, cleric and wizard/sorc are the two you are least likely to encounter.  I feel like its fairly well established at this point if you know what you are doing and your desire is to solo, it can be done on pretty much any class. So, if your arguement is that anyone who can solo won't look for a party, there would never be anyone in a party.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 05:56:34 PM by noah25 »

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2022, 10:09:52 PM »
it also just kills me that casters are so disproportionately desirable, yet you sit around in MC with nothing to do with 12 people because you cant find a wizard.

Well, to be fair, if casters can solo content, it'd stand to reason they wouldn't be waiting in the MC for a party but would likely be out there soloing, so that argument proves nothing. Actually, looking at numbers, pure wizards are the most popular class on the server, followed closely by clerics. They're an extremely powerful class with essentially no real RP restrictions, unlike druids or paladins.

Your logic only works under the premise they would rather solo than adventure. Not solo because they didn't find a party. I don't know anyone who would rather go blow up trees for the 6000th time than actually go somewhere in a group.

Also raw number doesn't mean anything its a proportion issue. The character being in existance doesn't indicate anything regarding making parties. The reality is if you walk through the mist camp looking for a party, at least in the times I play, cleric and wizard/sorc are the two you are least likely to encounter.  I feel like its fairly well established at this point if you know what you are doing and your desire is to solo, it can be done on pretty much any class. So, if your arguement is that anyone who can solo won't look for a party, there would never be anyone in a party.

Maybe the server can calculate and crunch these numbers better, but I have at least six wizzies in my account, besides two dozen shelf pcs, although I always play with the same four.

But also, it is a problem to take into anedoctal evidence. I see that my groups always lack warders, rogues and clerics.

I like to play this game. And I like playing with people. Saying that we do not see wizards around because they are soloing seems extreme.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2022, 10:38:09 PM »
You don't see them around MC because they have better places to be, and they can go to better places with or without a group, but it is always preferably the former.

If you know a wizard, play into their formulaic stereotyping and schedule your parties with them ahead of time.

A wizard arrives precisely when he means to.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2022, 12:22:08 AM »
You don't see them around MC because they have better places to be, and they can go to better places with or without a group, but it is always preferably the former.

If you know a wizard, play into their formulaic stereotyping and schedule your parties with them ahead of time.

A wizard arrives precisely when he means to.

I usually am the wizard. That puts my wizards up the BD too often. And I HATE dungeoneering in BD. That's why so many alts.
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bloodless

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2022, 03:40:13 AM »
Which I believe is the point being made. A wizard doesn't need to sit around MC if they want to adventure. They just need to point a finger at some people around them and say "We're going".

cheese tornado

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2022, 03:59:59 AM »
Soooo.. make wizard application only then?  :D

Ryujin

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2022, 09:27:55 AM »
Think this topic has gone beyond it's original scope tbh.

I do not think that black Blade needs to be nerfed. It already was in the past AFAIK, and as said earlier it's an unconventional strategy. I think summon duration should be kept in mind here as well.... It doesn't last -too- long.
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2022, 10:05:36 AM »
Which I believe is the point being made. A wizard doesn't need to sit around MC if they want to adventure. They just need to point a finger at some people around them and say "We're going".

I may be misinterpreting your post, but I can agree that the greatest advantage in being a warder is not having to wait for a warder to form a group.

And I do believe that the point of being a wiz is exactly that: forming groups.
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Ryujin

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2022, 10:52:50 AM »
Which I believe is the point being made. A wizard doesn't need to sit around MC if they want to adventure. They just need to point a finger at some people around them and say "We're going".

I may be misinterpreting your post, but I can agree that the greatest advantage in being a warder is not having to wait for a warder to form a group.

And I do believe that the point of being a wiz is exactly that: forming groups.

Frankly. Whenever i'm sitting around the MC. most of the time we wait for a lockpicker venture-wise. But that's till not really the point of this post, is it? The original post was about nerfing Black Blade... not about a wizard's role in adventuring parties... Though i do understand the points being made, perhaps they are points best made in another post?  :)
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RedMoney

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2022, 11:27:12 AM »
BBoD as is doesn't have an end game function beyond tanking things. It's ab is too low and it only gets one attack.  A warded mord sword is way better damage output. Another nerf and it might as well get removed from the game because it's present cheese strat function is it's only function.

noah25

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2022, 02:10:23 PM »
BBoD as is doesn't have an end game function beyond tanking things. It's ab is too low and it only gets one attack.  A warded mord sword is way better damage output. Another nerf and it might as well get removed from the game because it's present cheese strat function is it's only function.

Agreed, which is again why I would love to know how many players even carry this spell. My wizard has it and never uses it because he had a scroll from the old days. My sorc does not/ will never have this spell. Seems counterintuitive to nerf something that already is barely used.

McNastea

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2022, 04:56:03 PM »
I just don't see how it's cheesy to use it for its intended purpose.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2022, 07:59:27 PM »
Alternately, get shadows to run away from it instead of casting if it's the only or first creature on its perception check, at a random direction so cardinally 1/8 times the shadows will head toward the spellcaster and find them to fight instead. :)

Its not even a real entity, it's a planar rift, a void of space, its supposed to be able to harm incorporeal and ethereal creatures as if it were a force effect.

It's only cheese from an AI perspective that the summoner isn't looked for.

Dardonas

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2022, 08:16:55 PM »
Alternately, get shadows to run away from it instead of casting if it's the only or first creature on its perception check, at a random direction so cardinally 1/8 times the shadows will head toward the spellcaster and find them to fight instead. :)

Its not even a real entity, it's a planar rift, a void of space, its supposed to be able to harm incorporeal and ethereal creatures as if it were a force effect.

It's only cheese from an AI perspective that the summoner isn't looked for.

Shadows have an intelligence of 6, I don't think they're figuring anything like that out.  In fact, for Salt Mines more than any other dungeon, BBoD makes more sense for a bunch of shadows to swarm and attack it.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2022, 09:02:15 PM »
Regular shadows, sure, their intelligence is "usually" standard to be low.

The spellcasting ones though? Or the Nightwalkers? To cast an arcane spell implies they may have intelligence.

Unless it's all charismatic sorcery or treated as if they were spell-like abilities.

I don't have the source for a Salt Shadow to know if they are like shadows with their intelligence score, let alone their spellcasting variants.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 09:09:25 PM by zDark Shadowz »

Zyemeth

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2022, 09:04:20 PM »
I would agree the spell is entirely fine as is after being nerfed the first time. Being used to selectively tank some spells for a few minutes at the cost of a ninth level slot? I'd say that's a hefty cost for something that only helps you for a couple groups of enemies before disappearing. Not to mention it has no real offensive capability either in said Sithicus dungeons.

Stormy

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Re: Black Blade cheese
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2022, 12:35:59 AM »
Regular shadows, sure, their intelligence is "usually" standard to be low.

The spellcasting ones though? Or the Nightwalkers? To cast an arcane spell implies they may have intelligence.

Unless it's all charismatic sorcery or treated as if they were spell-like abilities.

I don't have the source for a Salt Shadow to know if they are like shadows with their intelligence score, let alone their spellcasting variants.

All arcane casting on monsters defaults to charisma, unless otherwise specified, like a lich. At least, that's how it works in tabletop.