Author Topic: New Base Class - Warlock  (Read 8443 times)

Dardonas

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2022, 02:56:50 AM »
Thieves' Bane has a 0 DC for the reflex save when dispelling a door/object locked by it.  Additionally, there is no DC for when I get hit by my own Thieves' Bane AoE.

Also, empowered Thieves' Bane does not seem to work on the damage or at all.


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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2022, 05:25:02 PM »
Aura of Flame does not last for 24 hours like the tooltip suggests.  I'm not sure what its actual time is, but it seems to go away shortly after leaving combat.



In addition, the only VFX that Aura of Flame gets is a orange glow similar to a ring of resistance.

For some reason, Word of Changing does not seem to be correctly turning enemies into the the shape.  I tested this againsts rats in the Vallaki Sewers using Word of Changing (Tortoise).

Additionally, Ennervating shadows is still having an incorrect tooltip for subsequent checks.  I'm not sure if the drain effect is correctly working or not for that DC, however.

I'll fix these. Thanks for the reports!

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Thieves' Bane has a 0 DC for the reflex save when dispelling a door/object locked by it.  Additionally, there is no DC for when I get hit by my own Thieves' Bane AoE.

Also, empowered Thieves' Bane does not seem to work on the damage or at all.

I've found the cause but could you test if metamagics work when unlocking the door? Also, does Maximize Magic work at all (might not be available because of spell levels though).

Dardonas

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2022, 06:14:16 PM »
The Empower Spell metamagic issue with Thieves' Bane causing the door to be un-unlockable seems to have been fixed. 

Maximize spell only works on Eldritch Blast, it's too high for the other abilities.

As for the other metamagics (extend spell, still spell, silent spell) I haven't tested those at all, but I'll do so later on today.

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2022, 12:45:12 PM »
I've loaded a fix for these problems on the test server; also I've implemented a custom function to make Spell Mantles/Globes of Invulnerability work based off the "equivalent spell level" rather than the actual spell level. It would be good to test that as well, make sure it works, and doesn't cause crashes, etc.

transcend

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2022, 01:51:33 PM »
Not sure if it's because of my test pak being the second to last, but the late game form of Spider Form does not come with a sprite, detaches your POV and causes a loading crash upon transition

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2022, 02:06:59 PM »
Not sure if it's because of my test pak being the second to last, but the late game form of Spider Form does not come with a sprite, detaches your POV and causes a loading crash upon transition

Yeah, you need the latest version of the hak for that model to work.

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2022, 11:38:34 PM »
Don't know if this is intentional or not but the physical damage from Chilling Tentacles bypasses Enervating Shadow.
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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2022, 03:29:25 PM »
I need some advice regarding how the public perception and acceptance of warlocks is.

I see people publicly spamming eldritch blast in barovia in front of people that really dont care much. Anyone with enough spellcraft will recognise the spell for what it is and then correctly frame the warkock for what they are: people that have received their powers from fiends and alike.

... or is it even publicly known? What is the consensus about this? despite barovia being superstitious about arcane magic, this is power from fiend patrons  we talk about...


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JustMonika

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2022, 03:37:39 PM »
I should imagine each PC is free to decide their own reactions, and the reaction from NPCs will range from 'Poor' to 'Very bad.'

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2022, 03:39:16 PM »
I need some advice regarding how the public perception and acceptance of warlocks is.

I see people publicly spamming eldritch blast in barovia in front of people that really dont care much. Anyone with enough spellcraft will recognise the spell for what it is and then correctly frame the warkock for what they are: people that have received their powers from fiends and alike.

... or is it even publicly known? What is the consensus about this? despite barovia being superstitious about arcane magic, this is power from fiend patrons  we talk about...

Not all warlocks are fiend warlocks, and not all warlocks even necessarily signed a pact themselves. There are fey warlocks, elemental warlocks, and maybe implicitly dragon warlocks given the origin of some of the invocations. Heck, celestial warlocks exist: your eldritch blast could be derived from angelic, heavenly power. The assumption that eldritch blast equals fiendish powers isn't necessarily true. However, most people in Ravenloft would go a step further: the fact that you're casting magic at all means you're definitely corrupt and evil and trucking with fiends. If you see someone casting Mage Armour, you the player can look up the spell on the wiki and read "ah, okay, that might be a Beguiler, a Wizard, a Sorcerer, a Hexblade, a Bard, a Voodan or a Cleric with Magic domain", but most people would instead think "ah, okay, that's a chaotic evil satanic cultist who has sold their soul to demons for unholy twisted power"

Although we the players might have read the sourcebooks, the characters haven't. It's always a little bit cheesy to me whenever someone points out "hey, that guy just cast Hound of Doom, that means he's a Hexblade, and can curse people" or "since she cast Aura of Glory, that means she's a Paladin, and cannot lie".
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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2022, 03:45:10 PM »
I was wondering about those that pass a spellcraft or Lore check...

Also i wonder how it works, lorewise... a pg born in ravenloft could have knowledge of what a celestial or fey is? there is nothing of the such within the mists. they would equal warlock = fiend patron, because they are around


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inkcorvid

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2022, 04:10:10 PM »
I was wondering about those that pass a spellcraft or Lore check...

Also i wonder how it works, lorewise... a pg born in ravenloft could have knowledge of what a celestial or fey is? there is nothing of the such within the mists. they would equal warlock = fiend patron, because they are around

Outside of DM events, lore and spellcraft checks are unenforcable. What's the DC for a Lore check to know about the Dark Powers? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Paladins should not lie? What's the DC to know that alignment is an objective property of the universe? What's the DC for a Lore check to know what a Pale Master is, and that at Level 10 they become immune to critical hits? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Clerics have two clerical domains each? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Hallowed Witches have the Weave Protection class feature that confers spell resistance?

You get to decide how you react, but consider: most Ravenloft natives would know what a fey is (and fear them) because they're plentiful across numerous domains. They'd probably be more familiar with fey than fiends, who are more of a bogeyman than something anyone knows anything about. But to most Ravenloft natives, all spellcasters are fiendish, because magic is wicked in nature. If you see someone casting magic, it's because they're evil.

In a more educated domain, like Dementlieu, they already make the distinction between learned arcane scientists (good) and unnatural sorcerers (bad).

You can absolutely have a grudge against warlocks. You can believe what you like about any class. But consider reacting the way you'd react to a warlock to all spellcasters - hexblades and sorcerers especially - because that's what Ravenloft natives typically believe. Or instead, consider learning about them IC. "That's an interesting spell. How did you do that?" Your character hasn't read the sourcebooks, and so probably doesn't know the precise ins and outs of how each and every class works. And if they do, they're a cutting edge scholar, and might want to consider submitting a thesis on the topic to the Society of the Erudite.
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Maffa

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2022, 04:17:53 PM »
I was wondering about those that pass a spellcraft or Lore check...

Also i wonder how it works, lorewise... a pg born in ravenloft could have knowledge of what a celestial or fey is? there is nothing of the such within the mists. they would equal warlock = fiend patron, because they are around

Outside of DM events, lore and spellcraft checks are unenforcable. What's the DC for a Lore check to know about the Dark Powers? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Paladins should not lie? What's the DC to know that alignment is an objective property of the universe? What's the DC for a Lore check to know what a Pale Master is, and that at Level 10 they become immune to critical hits? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Clerics have two clerical domains each? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Hallowed Witches have the Weave Protection class feature that confers spell resistance?

You get to decide how you react, but consider: most Ravenloft natives would know what a fey is (and fear them) because they're plentiful across numerous domains. They'd probably be more familiar with fey than fiends, who are more of a bogeyman than something anyone knows anything about. But to most Ravenloft natives, all spellcasters are fiendish, because magic is wicked in nature. If you see someone casting magic, it's because they're evil.

In a more educated domain, like Dementlieu, they already make the distinction between learned arcane scientists (good) and unnatural sorcerers (bad).

You can absolutely have a grudge against warlocks. You can believe what you like about any class. But consider reacting the way you'd react to a warlock to all spellcasters - hexblades and sorcerers especially - because that's what Ravenloft natives typically believe. Or instead, consider learning about them IC. "That's an interesting spell. How did you do that?" Your character hasn't read the sourcebooks, and so probably doesn't know the precise ins and outs of how each and every class works. And if they do, they're a cutting edge scholar, and might want to consider submitting a thesis on the topic to the Society of the Erudite.

makes sense, thanks!


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inkcorvid

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2022, 04:45:04 PM »
It's also perhaps more informative to consider what a specific culture or faith believes.

In Barovian culture, all magic is bad. It's all demons. It's twisting your children into caliban. No distinction between warlocks and wizards and druids. Burn the witch at the stake.

In Borcan culture, arcane magic is the fruit of the diabolic match. Again, there's no distinction: all wizards are warlocks. They all get their powers from a deal with a devil. The Church makes a big frowny face. While it's not necessarily evil, it's hella suspicious, and generally believed that the devils will probably get the better of you in the end.

Back when I was with the Vallaki Ezrites, it was broadly accepted dogma that magic comes from either Ezra, or the Mists of Death - and therefore probably from fiendish or unholy sources. Clerics of gods other than Ezra are probably conduits for the power of a demon, so for example, it's spiritually unhealthy to be healed or raised by Lizuca. If you let a random Outskirts cleric cast on you, consider mentioning that in confession and receiving penance for it. It was also cited that that magic is known to twist the unborn into caliban ... so how can it be anything other than unholy and tainted?

My own Ezrite, of Her Third Revelation, and a wizard, had a different and more scientific outlook. Nevertheless, she was strongly encouraged to swear off magic for good. Because by casting it, you're making a pact with fiendish powers, and thereby tainting your soul. After all, Her First Revelation is the Borcan church. After an enormous amount of really amazing RP and self-doubt, she moved to Dementlieu, where magic is considered both trifling entertainment and a crusty academic discipline. It's not satan, it's nerd stuff. But she was also told IC that the Dementlieuse See had to remain in step with Borca, and so couldn't just outright say that wizards are fine. Just keep a low profile.

The Faith of the Lawgiver has a similar outlook: either you're a cleric of the Lawgiver whose powers flow from his divine command, or you're channeling the great adversary Mytteri and going to the Hell of Slaves when you die for spitting in god's eye. Just like the Ezrites above, faithful of the Lawgiver are strongly discouraged from letting non-Lawgiver clerics cast on them. Though in Hazlan, there's an awkward theological tension between that and the fact that both the native culture and the righteous tyrant Hazlik seem to think magic is good actually, because magic is awesome power and might makes right. And that justification, if not the conclusion, is something the Lawgiver can get behind. The dissonance inherent in the situation can give rise to interesting RP.

Consider how all of the above might react to a warlock, both in the sense of how the most surface-level features would appear, and what they would think if they were presented with the sourcebook entry. Each Gazetteer entry has a section about what, exactly each domain thinks about magic. But the archetype of the warlock - as a dabbler who sold his soul for power - is an enduring cultural force in the Land of Mists.

EDIT:

tldr; this isn't so much "don't persecute the poor innocent warlocks" as " ... and throw the wizards on the pyre too while you're at it"
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:57:58 PM by inkcorvid »
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2022, 06:20:04 PM »
Warlock is almost the personification of the natives' beliefs, when their misconceptions about magic are actually right. They fit right in like a glove.

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2022, 06:48:29 PM »
Found a thing maybe!

The damage reduction feats don't seem to apply while polymorphed, while bards can sing and turn feats still work.

Unless bardsong makes other polymorphed things magic weapons...

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2022, 02:11:52 AM »
The damage reduction doesn't seem to be working at all, from what I have observed (at least not the first level of damage reduction Warlocks get).
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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2022, 09:39:59 PM »
The damage reduction doesn't seem to be working at all, from what I have observed (at least not the first level of damage reduction Warlocks get).

It should now be fixed.

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2022, 08:39:57 AM »
Magic insight is bugged.

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2022, 06:09:08 PM »
So far I've noticed that eldritch blast shapes and essences are their own spells rather than true modifiers for eldritch blast.

In PNP I'm used to you being able to take both an eldritch blast shape and an essence and have them affect your eldritch blast at the same time. To quote Complete Arcane (p9):

Quote
A warlock can apply an eldritch essence invocation and a blast shape invocation (see below) to the same blast. When a warlock uses both kinds of invocations to alter an eldritch blast, the spell level equivalent is equal to the spell level of the eldritch blast, the level of the eldritch essence invocation, or the level of the blast shape invocation, whichever is higher.

For example, activating a sickening blast invocation (essence) and an eldritch chain invocation (shape) would allow you to chain sickening blast to 2+ targets. Activating a sickening blast invocation (essence) and then a beshadowed blast invocation (essence) would then result in you only having beshadowed blast activated.

I was wondering if this was purely a design choice, but the spells don't seem to be balanced for the loss of either a shape or an essence.

My question is then: will this be looked at? I believe that by turning these specific invocations into toggle abilities that modify the cantrip eldritch blast rather than spells in their own right would solve the problem. Or maybe a self-buff that changes eldritch blast to work in that manner?

This would also help warlocks find further use for the maximize magic feat while retaining build versatility.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 06:39:53 PM by Voclain »
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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2022, 07:28:06 PM »
We’ve implemented them this way on purpose.

edit: To further clarify, there are aspects that counterbalance this, such as Haste affecting Invocations, metamagics affecting Eldritch Blast, metamagics having no daily limit, all things that don't work in PnP for warlocks.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 08:19:46 PM by EO »

Voclain

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2022, 08:20:05 PM »
Then I'll leave my feedback that given the few invocations you can acquire, the majority of essences are too costly to keep once you can cast shapes.

You might also be able to invalidate the use of maximize by moving eldritch blast up to circle 1.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 08:41:28 PM by Voclain »
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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2022, 10:07:38 PM »
Then I'll leave my feedback that given the few invocations you can acquire, the majority of essences are too costly to keep once you can cast shapes.

You might also be able to invalidate the use of maximize by moving eldritch blast up to circle 1.

Maximize Spell support (and other metamagics) is intentional rather than accidental as a balance mechanism.

As for specific invocations balance, there's merit to that, though the class is only still a few months old. Though if they're only good at lower levels and get replaced later on that's not so bad since they see use for a while, then don't. It's bound to happen with a class that has a total of 12 invocations.

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2022, 12:14:09 AM »
So Voracious Dispelling temporary HP seems to stack.  I was able to push my HP from 88 to nearly 300.

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Re: New Base Class - Warlock
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2022, 12:40:54 PM »
Also I've been trying to figure out how to articulate my thoughts on this issue I'm feeling.  Basically, warlock is amazing in low levels but really starts running out of steam.

Similarly leveled casters have like, +6-7 higher spell DCs than we do.  So while we can semi-reliably pummel with blasts, all of our tricky spells are basically useless.  Even with greater invocation focus and a high charisma, my greater invocation DCs are between 17-24 that I've tested.  That's like jumping over a line of tape on the sidewalk.

I'm also finding a lot of invocations just have no ulitity whatsoever.  The hellcat one, for instance, lessens a warlock's power rather than enhancing it.  The cat shape is so cool!  But there's no situation where its weak abilities would help (as far as I can tell).  The spider form was the same (though I'm told at level 15 it can be good?)

I'm just finding myself terribly underwhelmed with what I can do, or what I bring to a situation.  The spamability of the invocations stop mattering once you get to like, level 8.  I've never run into a situation where there isn't plenty of rest opportunities before it taxes anyone. 

Sorry if this is rambling. I just thought I'd muse some thoughts. I love this class but I feel its slate of powers is really underwhelming.