Author Topic: Epic Enemies  (Read 1322 times)

ladylena

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Re: Epic Enemies
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2022, 04:42:20 PM »
I sort of just guessed the fiends in perf were the result of the people summoning many, and other than that, creatures created by the dark powers to populate the places?

If there is supposed to be only 24 balors in the abyss, maybe it's the same X number of balors people summoned to ravenloft that keep getting respawned and brought back to life just like all the player characters. Maybe there is an entity out there that minions take their dead masters to to be ressurected like the heros that hunt them?
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Epic Enemies
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2022, 04:50:00 PM »
No, there isn't only 24 balors, just 24 balors at most recorded. Don't have the books referenced on the wiki but it indicates there could easily be more, and what with demons taking 100 years to respawn or whatever the number is they probably keep each others' numbers down and have several queued to come back, if archmages, deities or powerful adventurers and such aren't killing them.

They have their own respawn mechanic fueled by the Abyss, and if the Abyss is cut off then the dark powers are respawning them, because they can't escape either, and in this instance it may very well not need to take 100 years for them.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 04:54:54 PM by zDark Shadowz »

hn3SoNaReS

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Re: Epic Enemies
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2022, 08:51:11 AM »
Well ultimately, you have to decide if trivialising powerful monster races is a negative thing, and if it harms the setting, I totally agree that it does. Having fewer, much more challenging creatures like Aboleths, Pit Fiends, Beholders, even Drow, is just better design and implementation than having large numbers of them swarm you and be trivial to dispatch. Certain monsters and races are entirely designed to be horde like and relatively none threatening (in the broader sense), like bats, goblins, wolves, undead in general. Using a nebulous Non satisfactory explanation of "The Dark Powers made them this way" is just lazy.

Calling it lazy is unfair.

The problem is that we are in a game (not PnP) more than 20 years old, famous for having lots os things hardcoded. In PnP you can easily create new monsters as your imagination demands. Were the game open source and easy to code it would be possible too. You could simply say they are Devil Johns, a mockery of the pit fiends bred in Perfidus and ok. You caould call the Aboleth the Andrew, the psychic Octopus or whatever.

The question to be balanced is how much development work will it takes to re-skin those monsters to something non-immersion breaker and it this amount of work would be more appreciated anywhere.

Your completely correct, re-skinning would be a fanciful idea, and no one has seriously suggested that anyone should even try it, and certainly no one is suggesting coding or changing how the game functions, that seems to be a red herring that you're throwing into the discussion. It's all about utilising the resources in the toolset, which are absolutely phenomenal by the way, the different combinations of creatures, classes, equipment, skills, VSFX, portraits, voice sets, means you could easily create hundreds of thousands of combinations of content, and I'm only talking about creatures here, not areas, lighting, traps, and scripts.

Regards "Andrew the Psychic Octopus", you're actually misrepresenting a tool that developers have to create a unique and meaningful encounter. Picture an Aboleth Dungeon, at the far end of the dungeon is the end encounter, an Aboleth. You place various creatures that are suitable for the dungeon, creatures that Aboleths would conceivably dominate and use in there schemes, and would encounter, the players fight there way through it to get to the end point of the dungeon and what do you find...a creature called "Aboleth", which is not unreasonable, but is that the best implementation of the creature? No, certainly not. You can immediately improve the encounter by making a small change by giving it a name, "Xu'garth the adolescent Aboleth".

With that one small change, you have shown that actually, this top tier monster, who has the potential to dominate and enslave humanoids, and mastermind organised groups of townsfolk, influential organisations, religious cults, noble families, royal courts, wasn't just a random no name NPC sitting at the end of a dungeon waiting to be vanquished, it was actually just a adolescent. You could even go one step further, and at the end of the encounter the "real" Aboleth was actually just projecting an illusion via the enslaved elven enchantress, and the real "Xu'garth the adolescent Aboleth" swims away while the party is trapped behind a immovable barrier that this genius creature installed so that it could make it's escape.

It's all about how you use what's available.

hn3SoNaReS

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Re: Epic Enemies
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2022, 09:17:06 AM »
But I feel the point Look Man brings stands. I mean it's a bit hard taking seriously the Black Duke's menace knowing that Malthor outranks him by not a low amount and that you grind it face every other day

The same can be said of any monster though; it's hard to take a werewolf MPC seriously when you kill dozens at night too; should we take those out?

In the end, as Revenant said, this remains a persistent world and these mobs are a compromise to be made in the name of gameplay, lest we only fight mundane human NPCs.

Sorry Eo, but that's completely untrue, why would any player look at an MPC and be all like..."oh look just another mob, it has good XP and coins, lets go kill it". You don't even need to give it a distinct model, it just having a name, a voiceset, or a portrait, makes it instantly recognisable and elevates it to other players, this applies exactly the same to NPC's, the combinations available in the toolset are immense, it's not a case of mundane humans, or just a few types of exotic creature.

EO

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Re: Epic Enemies
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2022, 10:04:39 AM »
Quote
Sorry Eo, but that's completely untrue, why would any player look at an MPC and be all like..."oh look just another mob, it has good XP and coins, lets go kill it". You don't even need to give it a distinct model, it just having a name, a voiceset, or a portrait, makes it instantly recognisable and elevates it to other players, this applies exactly the same to NPC's, the combinations available in the toolset are immense, it's not a case of mundane humans, or just a few types of exotic creature.

Then again the same can be said of any monster, no? Which is my point. The presence of spawn monsters doesn’t really take away from the individual DM NPC or MPC because the latter are unique. So either these spawn monsters trivialize their plot counterparts or they don’t.

hn3SoNaReS

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Re: Epic Enemies
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2022, 10:29:26 AM »
Quote
Sorry Eo, but that's completely untrue, why would any player look at an MPC and be all like..."oh look just another mob, it has good XP and coins, lets go kill it". You don't even need to give it a distinct model, it just having a name, a voiceset, or a portrait, makes it instantly recognisable and elevates it to other players, this applies exactly the same to NPC's, the combinations available in the toolset are immense, it's not a case of mundane humans, or just a few types of exotic creature.

Then again the same can be said of any monster, no? Which is my point. The presence of spawn monsters doesn’t really take away from the individual DM NPC or MPC because the latter are unique. So either these spawn monsters trivialize their plot counterparts or they don’t.

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you said AMPC werewolves  :oops: