Author Topic: Inflation suggestion  (Read 2537 times)

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2022, 06:26:29 PM »
I agree that compulsory gold sinks won't improve player experience, but I think voluntary gold sinks like more rentals or anything that encourages people to splash the cash to create fun is a good idea.
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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2022, 08:19:44 PM »
I agree that compulsory gold sinks won't improve player experience, but I think voluntary gold sinks like more rentals or anything that encourages people to splash the cash to create fun is a good idea.

I know tha this is not the case, but I'd spend hundreds of thousands of gold in charity to see my ocr lower.
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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2022, 08:31:24 PM »
Just some basic points on game economy, specifically.

It is already broken.

There are people that struggle, some kind of inflation deal is just telling lowbies their twelve fang left is worth even less, so I'd prefer not to punish people just kicking off their career further by having all merchants affected by some universal valuation and devaluation score.

The economy has things like scrolls and crafting supplies, rentals and NPC factions (and AMPCs) alongside characters that retire indefinitely with their stockpiles to erase and quarantine wealth.

The problem is the generation.

NPC merchants have infinite pockets.

I know that curbing the merchants to have their own limited gold pool isn't an option for this server. Works for many others running lower magic servers due to resets and lower population numbers, but not quite here.

~

So I think the method to halt this gold generation, needs to be some kind of activity value at the specific merchants.

As an example, X amount of things sold incurs its own "OCR" penalty against that infinite gold generating merchant, that lowers the percentage of gold one can receive from a merchant until it cools off.

Tie it into the appraise functions that already exist, as this IS a limiting formula that exists.

~

Now if people start trading around goods between each other before selling to get around it, so what? Larger parties working together should be able to get their golds' worth, but not everyone will have appraise scores maxxed out, and eventually everyone in a given group will start hitting into some larger deficits.

This will mean stockpilers will hoard junk items over gold, which are a lot more fun to pickpocket for AMPCs, and have to manage their inventory weight and space more efficiently, causing more self-limiting effects on how much "wealth" someone can pump & dump into the world at any given time.

~~

What's more, it makes sense. In the shoes of a shopkeep, if someone comes in and keeps emptying the same trash to your store, you're going to pay less for their goods until you've had time to move the stock you already have, you've already been shown there's no supply or demand issue for them to reasonably markup. Those goods become worth less the more that is brought in.

~~

This value could also work inversely too, this heightened OCR value could give people discounts to buy their existing goods (up to a point) so if there were consumables from that store they wanted to buy after all, it wouldn't cost them that much.

Frequent suppliers of stock may not get paid as much but they'll get discounts on goods for a bit, and it could function as a quicker way to cool off the penalty, buying things one might actually need from the merchant.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 08:44:14 PM by zDark Shadowz »

William Roberts

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2022, 09:07:31 AM »
A too-complex surgery for a mostly cosmetic problem.

Players have been complaining that inflation is broken throughout the server's history, as evidenced by this brilliant treatise written by a dashing newcomer to the server almost seven years ago. I hope the years have added wisdom to that younger man's sincere and earnest expostulations.

Indeed, can anyone produce any truly dire effects inflation has caused in the interim?

Creating more ways for players to spend the wealth they accumulate is a positive response because it makes their experience richer. NFTs anyone? In contrast, somehow punishing the accumulation of GP--one way of scoring the game--penalizes players for doing what the game is designed for them to do: adventure as a means to gain treasure and levels.

Likewise, reward should remain commensurate with risk, so that's always a balance to be tweaked (see the recent discussions about the desert huecvas).

In-game prices are only arbitrary numbers. Add a decimal place, take away a decimal place--what is the real effect? What is meaningful is the time players must spend to achieve some arbitrary X, whether that X is affording a rental, buying some valued piece of equipment, etc.

So a meaningful debate is whether it has become too easy or too difficult timewise to do X, not whether pretend turnips should cost 1 rather than 2 pretend gold pieces.


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Maragrouf

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2022, 09:17:26 AM »
You did not just bring NFTs into this thread... YOU DID NOT BRING NFTS AS A MEAN TO JUSTIFY PLAYER BASED ECONOMY, DID YOU?!
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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2022, 10:37:58 AM »
A too-complex surgery for a mostly cosmetic problem.

Players have been complaining that inflation is broken throughout the server's history, as evidenced by this brilliant treatise written by a dashing newcomer to the server almost seven years ago. I hope the years have added wisdom to that younger man's sincere and earnest expostulations.

Indeed, can anyone produce any truly dire effects inflation has caused in the interim?

Creating more ways for players to spend the wealth they accumulate is a positive response because it makes their experience richer. NFTs anyone? In contrast, somehow punishing the accumulation of GP--one way of scoring the game--penalizes players for doing what the game is designed for them to do: adventure as a means to gain treasure and levels.

Likewise, reward should remain commensurate with risk, so that's always a balance to be tweaked (see the recent discussions about the desert huecvas).

In-game prices are only arbitrary numbers. Add a decimal place, take away a decimal place--what is the real effect? What is meaningful is the time players must spend to achieve some arbitrary X, whether that X is affording a rental, buying some valued piece of equipment, etc.

So a meaningful debate is whether it has become too easy or too difficult timewise to do X, not whether pretend turnips should cost 1 rather than 2 pretend gold pieces.

I don't think anyone was advocating for punishing the accumulation of wealth, or making any sort of "compulsory gold sinks".  As a practical matter, any server needs to balance inflows and outflows, lest you have a critical spiral of too much or too little value in the system, but overall I have not seen any drastic warning signs of a recession/depression or rampant inflation.  Nevertheless, it is something that mechanically needs to be monitored --- many MMORPG have had virtual economy crises because of failures to pay attention to such things.  This should be relatively easy to accomplish with a sufficient number of voluntary gold sinks that people find RP value in, and moderating the frequency and value of loot drops.  No other tinkering is really required (like price setting, compulsory taxation, etc.)


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Day Old Bread

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2022, 10:45:10 AM »
I agree that compulsory gold sinks won't improve player experience, but I think voluntary gold sinks like more rentals or anything that encourages people to splash the cash to create fun is a good idea.

I know tha this is not the case, but I'd spend hundreds of thousands of gold in charity to see my ocr lower.

If you're donating and taking screens of this, you might be able to request a DM do exactly that for you at some point.

dutchy

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2022, 12:20:00 PM »
aaah these never get old.

honestly why bother?
some people will give into their greed.
others see it as a sport.
some are just endless walking piggy banks.
and then there are those that are saving up those millions for that rare item.

this is not a problem that can be solved, hell i'm not even sure if it is a problem.
it's fake currency in a fake place, it hold no value what so ever.

sure you can make all sorts of systems and more way's to sink fake money in, but people will for different reasons still try to fill that bank.

you want to be a problem solver towards this?
rob the bank (honestly been done be for and ppl lost all their coins)
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HirtZirk

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2022, 01:58:37 PM »
To comment after the two last post which I tend to agree but would like to give a touch of my personal experience.

I agree the economy  is solid as it is for me no problem there I would have perhaps NPC buy crafted item sligthly more in line with the usefullness of the item but definetly sell them for a price related to usefulness.

I also love that some item are super rare I would even go as far as not to be sad if some were unique also could have unique item broken instead of xp for the sake of enchanting.

I guess this all discussion had the effect of making me revise my complaint that some character to have an appropriate approach to money. I guess that I can now accept that as a valid trait of personality and what my character feels is valuable is not to some much richer character.

What I still beleive is that wealth should definetly attract attention, if not of Stradh and the like it should definetly make it into plots.

ScalesofEquilibrium

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2022, 11:04:52 PM »
I'm just going to leave this picture here.




Just remember, everyone made fun of Abadar and Senna when she was worried about Inflation years ago.
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There is no greater darkness in the night than the threat and arrival of inflation.
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Rocket

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2022, 01:13:29 AM »
How about pointing out the game state by looking to any other similar game economy.

Guild Wars 1 is a game of constant farming and dungeon clears which reward items. The game's main updates finalized around 2010 so the scope of endgame farming has not changed since then. The game does have its gold sinks, but they certainly do not outweigh the gold produced. The endgame treasures are farmed and inflation continues to occur on that game. In Guild Wars 1, an account has one storage bank shared among all characters. Hence, wealth is shared among all characters of an account.

Everquest upto a specific release such as Vellek is similar. Constant farming of the same endgame items over and over. Gold sinks not doing enough. Wealth is shared across characters.

In Ravenloft, it is very similar to the above MINUS the sharing of wealth to your new characters. So what we get is just like any other MMO, there is inflation. However this is magnified because any progress made on a prior character does not transfer over to a new character. And because of this, the gap of wealth earned is much greater between a new character compared to an old character.

So then you are kind of dealing with two economies at once.
1. An economy where players are just there to grow, RP, learn, have fun. This economy is very much like what you have during an NCE.
2. An economy with whales as the foundation, big wealth trades, hoarding, monopolizing, etc.  Mostly observed around the Mist Camp and Port.

With 2, your way into this economy is to work towards valuables that 2 says are valuable. Acquire them and trade.

And with Guild Wars 1 or Everquest, the inflation is never stopped. It won't be stopped here either. (unless something drastic happens like a bank robbery)
The question is really, do you care that much to worry about it? Or just get to work like the rest of us and play the economy for what it is.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 01:18:17 AM by Rocket »

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2022, 03:30:04 AM »
Im not particularly interested in spending any more time than I do making money. I'd rather have the money I need and roleplay which is infinitely more fun

Dardonas

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2022, 03:34:49 AM »
I think the only real gold sink that needs to be in the game is that editing your outfits and appearance should scale based on your total level.  This will make it not only so that low levels can edit their outfits and be more immersed in the world, but it will also provide a steady drain for higher level PCs who have no issue with gold.

As of right now, and I know that I've seen Developers comment otherwise, this is NOT the case.  Editing one's outfit is based on the total cost of the item as a whole--and only if it is a droppable item on the loot tables.  If it is crafted, let alone enchanted, the prices are just laughable.

Edit:  Another possible gold sink that might help other topics that have been coming up is having it so that Vallaki Trade Licenses also scale in cost based on level.  It wouldn't be much, but since trade licenses are renewed often it could steadily drain money while encouraging higher levels to leave the area if they don't want to pay.  Chock it up to Strahd wanting outlanders to pay their share of taxes.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 04:09:12 AM by Dardonas »

Maffa

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2022, 06:51:36 AM »
The only inflation lever i can think of are taxes.

Arelith has market stalls where people can put their stuff up to sale and the transaction withholds a percentage of the sale.

If inflation is an issue (is it?) this is a way to put it down.


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stefan pall

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2022, 06:58:03 AM »
I think compulsory sinks would be much more effective though.

Like maybe scale with level:
 - bank fees
 - lodgings
 - transport

That would take coin out of the system from people that actually have it.

It s ver hard to have any respect for prices when you can make a ton of coin out of nothing - like a 10 min solo dungeon run, or selling one expensive item you literally don't care about.

That would bring high levels more in line with lower levels in terms of coin actually having significance.

MAB77

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2022, 07:23:36 AM »
Not a practical idea for armor modding. Players would only outsource that to lower level characters. I am in favor of increasing the cost of trading licences for non-Barovian. But it would not make sense to scale trading licenses cast based on one's level, a level is an OOC game mechanic and NPCs cannot know at a glance if a PC is high level or not. This would however remain an in-game choice if you choose to pay the increased price or not.

Garda and Gendarme should definitively up the cost of their fines, and "collect taxes for the Count" from vendors. They should return the lion share of the confiscated sums to the Burgomeister/Council of Brilliance instead of keeping it. Although this too should remain an in-game choice.

Neither of these addresses inflation though. Not everyone's a trader, not everyone gets on the bad side of Garda/Gendarmes, and of those many don't bother to pay their fines and simply escape.

There is no avoiding the generation of gold within the game. There is little gold sink that would be fun or efficient if imposed. I am not suggesting this to occur per say. But if the perception is really that there is too much gold in game. The simplest correction to do would be to remove 80% of gold from all characters and bank accounts. Protecting a minimal amount up to 10k, so it's mosty high level players that'd be impacted. Could just be an in-game curse that made gold to rust. Again, I'm not suggesting that, but if the player base insists hard enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯...

I'm in favor of higher rates for bank fees, lodgings and transport. Though care must be taken not to make those prohobitive to low level characters, so there is a limit to what can be accomplished. I'm also in favor of a limit on the amount of gold one can carry on oneself, thus forcing people to use the banks. (But I fear this may be hard-coded and may not be doable.) We could reduce the return on selling items to NPCs so gold is not generated as quickly.

//Added a few things.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 07:45:18 AM by MAB77 »
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JustMonika

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2022, 08:41:11 AM »
The Dementliuse Gendarme's were asked to abolish all their fees for merchants by the DM Team.

It is now ironically, cheaper to have a trading business in Dementlieu than Valaki. I'm not sure what the rational was DM side, if I was to guess I would say it was to break down barriers to creating roleplay, but I personally found the challenge of needng to secure funding for a trading permit to be part of the fun (A great reason to get a noble sponsor, for example.)

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2022, 08:45:02 AM »
MAB, I hate taxes, both in real life and in fake life.  However, if people want compulsory gold sinks, there is one potential game mechanic that has its roots in actual historical reality.  All the way up to the creation of modern centralized coinage, city-states created their own unique coinage, and trade/taxes were typically authorized only in the coinage of the realm.  There were moneychangers that would legally convert foreign currency to local currency and skim a percentage off the top.  One way to implement this mechanic is to have unique tokens for Vallaki, Port, etc.  You need to have the token for NPC merchants and banks assigned to that locality to buy/sell/interact with you.  You can only have one token at a time, and you have to go to the local moneychanger to switch tokens to your current locality, for a fee of course (a percentage of wealth currently carried).  This would most strongly impact those characters that travel a LOT between localities, and conduct trade between those localities, which would typically be high levels.  Obviously, this would not impact player-to-player trades, since there is no way to police that.  The token merely serves as a trigger that unlocks the local NPC merchants for trade.  The NPC dialog could be something like "I am sorry but we do not accept those coins here in [name your realm].  You should see so-and-so the moneychanger first".  You could use the banks for this function.  This would incentivize players to maintain accounts in local banks in local currencies to avoid significant moneychanging fees, but at the same time they would have to pay bank fees to have money in their accounts.  Win-win (at least from the government's perspective).  You pay if you carry your wealth with you.  You pay if you have local bank accounts.


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Lion El'Jonson

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2022, 08:57:30 AM »
- Invest in lower level players. Equipping them and financing their crafting operations.
This. The low level experience can be rough, especially for players without a group, giving them a hand could be pocket change in your eyes but a huge boost to them.

Day Old Bread

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2022, 09:30:42 AM »
I think this is a problem that doesn't actually exist, much like many of the other "problems" that come up in these forums.

With an increase in population, dungeons to explore, crafts to create and so on, inflation is natural.

It's only a problem if some groups of players have an inability to acquire the gold needed to survive and thrive. I've not witnessed this and therefore don't believe there's an issue with the current state of things.

Players have more control over the economy than they realize. Adjust your prices to match what you think things should be worth. Work with your fellow players to trade goods or services rather than coin. If you feel you've got too much coin, see it removed somehow.

There's no need to burden the DM team or the Devs to conjure up ways to tax players or control an economy that is doing fine.

PrimetheGrime

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2022, 11:15:25 AM »
I'm telling you now, people (myself included) would -hate- having to pay more to customize than a lower level simply because we're higher level. High levels does not = lots of money.  The less time people need to spend making money is the less time spent not doing cooler things like events, roleplay, faction roleplay, pvp and what have you. I have never considered making money fun and it's most times been a chore akin to a job that I have to do to get to the fun part of my day.

Kireek

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2022, 12:43:27 PM »
Not all players are equally savy at getting money. I hit my first million by level 11, I mean are we going to be designing the economy around players like me? Which is what people are complaining about? Just.. no.


And to be frank, if you think the money issue is a problem, wait till you actually try and get rare items, becuase money doesn't mean anything, it's trade in kind. And that to get any rare or old peices of equipment you just have to know people to trade around and sort of do these crazy daisy chain item trades sometimes just to POSSIBLY get something you would find useful.

(Aka What I mean to say is inflation only really matters if people are consistently buying things with gold- but they arn't Gold has no value after a certain point.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 01:02:57 PM by Kireek »

HirtZirk

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2022, 01:35:28 PM »
...

I'm in favor of higher rates for bank fees, lodgings and transport. Though care must be taken not to make those prohobitive to low level characters, so there is a limit to what can be accomplished. I'm also in favor of a limit on the amount of gold one can carry on oneself, thus forcing people to use the banks. (But I fear this may be hard-coded and may not be doable.) We could reduce the return on selling items to NPCs so gold is not generated as quickly.

...

Actually I was thinking the oposite. Gold you carry on you makes your action have bigger consequence and can create more plot.
I would on contrary recomend capping what the different banks can hold.
If an extremely weathy individual want to put everything in the bank he should spread it on several bank (bringing some disconfort).

this is in my opinion both creadible in game and would make people carry more cash or find other way....

i was surprise there is not a market for bountied Items that would sell more expensive than the reward because it is a asset....I digress.

TL;DR
Basically Cap bank accounts (level to be defined). People will loose money adventuring and money will become more prominent plot material.

PS : I agree to post saying current economy is fine, doesnt mean we cannot improve it for everyones enjoyment. :)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 06:55:01 PM by HirtZirk »

MAB77

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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2022, 01:53:04 PM »
i was surprise there is not a market for bountied Items that would sell more expensive than the reward because it is a asset....I digress.

This is easily explained. Turning in bounties gives XP, but only to those present when the bountied item was found. Turning in a bountied item when you have not been marked as participating in a quest will only give you the gold. There is therefore no reasons whatsoever to buy said item at a higher price in the first place, just as it is simply more profitable to get both the XP and gold by turning it in instead of selling it to others.
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Re: Inflation suggestion
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2022, 08:10:35 AM »
This is so sadistically beautiful that I love it.

...

I'm in favor of higher rates for bank fees, lodgings and transport. Though care must be taken not to make those prohobitive to low level characters, so there is a limit to what can be accomplished. I'm also in favor of a limit on the amount of gold one can carry on oneself, thus forcing people to use the banks. (But I fear this may be hard-coded and may not be doable.) We could reduce the return on selling items to NPCs so gold is not generated as quickly.

...

Actually I was thinking the oposite. Gold you carry on you makes your action have bigger consequence and can create more plot.
I would on contrary recomend capping what the different banks can hold.
If an extremely weathy individual want to put everything in the bank he should spread it on several bank (bringing some disconfort).

this is in my opinion both creadible in game and would make people carry more cash or find other way....

i was surprise there is not a market for bountied Items that would sell more expensive than the reward because it is a asset....I digress.

TL;DR
Basically Cap bank accounts (level to be defined). People will loose money adventuring and money will become more prominent plot material.

PS : I agree to post saying current economy is fine, doesnt mean we cannot improve it for everyones enjoyment. :)

Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men