You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: The Closure Paradox, Crafting/Enchanting, and the PotM Loot Crisis of 2022  (Read 3814 times)

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4952
  • Potm's own forum troll
Aprog's got a good take on crafting.

I don't think the grind, whether it be crafting or enchanting or what-not, is the only factor in holding on to characters, but I think it's pretty foolish to dismiss it as trivial. While some of us, and I think perhaps a disproportionate amount of people who actively post on the forums, are Built Different and don't mind too much the idea of closing off a character that we  put potentially thousands of real life hours into in order to establish, for a lot of people those hours are very meaningful.

The meaning will differ from player to player. Nobly, we can say that RP is the only thing we're here for, and that all bows to the narrative, but that simply isn't purely true for everyone. The server tries very hard to emulate PnP D&D, a system that was at its core a war game. Almost every rule contributes to the progression and mechanical prowess of your character, with RP being something you build around it. The game is structured around adventure, levelling up, and loot. If you separate that from D&D, then you should basically be playing any other system because D&D's strongest points are its well-defined mechanics, not its storytelling flexibility.

Said progression has meaning to many people, similar to story progression. The acquisition of gear, the time spent to become a relevant crafter, the months devoted to enchanting an item. The degree to which these things are valued will differ player to player, but all of them have a very real cost in time. Time spent in front of the forge, time spent in the dungeon, time spent logged in to the server when they could be doing X, Y, or Z other hobby. For me, and many other people, time is the most valuable resource we have.

Mechanical progression elements are also not separate from story progression, as to an extent they dictate your level of freedom in executing a concept - if you are a noble in Port, and you wish to uphold the setting by being snobby to Outlanders, you'd best hope you have the mechanics to avoid getting murdered for it. If not, you're incentivized to bow to the whims of those who do. Thankfully, if you're low level, it's not a huge deal for you to get whacked - you didn't "lose" months of time. It can be a bummer to have a planned concept cut off, but them's the breaks.

Most of the worst toxicity that I've seen on this server has come from people desperately defending their invested time. It poisons conflict utterly.

when i talk with others about the grind.
i always say the following.
i wish they just give me the 20 lvls, i do not need to dungeon every week, but i do need to be able to get around and face the server when need be.
but why is usually rhe reply.
so i can just rp without the waste of time.
Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

Calad

  • Champion of the Eternal Dawn
  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 465
  • The Ancient. The Land.

wanna be radical? wanna promote rp and maybe create actual trade?
lock the crafts by race.
give the dwarves the metals.
the elves woodworking
halflings herbalism
humans clothing
gnomes alchemy
leatherworking??  humans and elves?

then if you make an arrow, make a shield etc you need to trade and rp

I don't have much to say on this thread, however this sparked an idea I'd like to put forward as a suggestion, and possibly expecting that it's a -lot- of work and wouldn't be implemented anytime soon.

What you suggested is understandable dutchy, but I think a bit too extreme. You want to promote RP and collaboration in trade? Locking up the crafts behind races is not the way to go but, I think race-locked recipes are a good idea. Only dwarves can smith this one type of waraxe, or only an elven tailor can make that one type of suit, etc... it's a lot of work, yes. Just something I am throwing out there though. The recipes should be worth the time to seek out these certain crafters, it'd give people an incentive to seek out grinding certain crafts depending on their race, and it'd increase RP and trade. This is also lore appropriate, as each race in D&D has some *secrets* in some crafts they guard, and only they can make certain things.
Long live the Count, Strahd von Zarovich XI!

Last Exit to Barovia

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
  • "unto us a most inspired storm"
I have had no problem being antagonistic, finding conflict, or engaging in plots at any level or amount of gear that I have played at, and that is including even from level 2. I believe it does come down to one's attachment to their story. If you yourself want to be a powerful villain then of course you will wait until you are lvl 15 and enchanted with all the gear you want to shake up the world. But in same vein if you are a low level antagonist, you should not expect to be a great villain yet or to contend with powerful players. It is for this same reason that the server has created some level segregation with the different areas. I have had to cater my expectations to the living world that we play in, and take that same approach from my PCs point of view.

While I think that the points discussed here are certainly valid and worthy of the discussion, I feel that the position that one cannot play antagonistically due to the power level of other players is just not true. If you are just starting off you are only going to be as antagonistic as you can be. If you find yourself over stepping your bounds and unable to contend with the attention you have drawn, that is your own fault (by that I mean the PC not the player). An unskilled criminal will be unlikely to get away with committing a risky crime. It is the same in the server and should be. That's just my opinion. That, and the best villains are the ones that you think are your friend the whole time.
Gianna Valentina, Curate of the Refuge of the Fifth Light

JustMonika

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1886
I have had no problem being antagonistic, finding conflict, or engaging in plots at any level or amount of gear that I have played at, and that is including even from level 2. I believe it does come down to one's attachment to their story. If you yourself want to be a powerful villain then of course you will wait until you are lvl 15 and enchanted with all the gear you want to shake up the world. But in same vein if you are a low level antagonist, you should not expect to be a great villain yet or to contend with powerful players. It is for this same reason that the server has created some level segregation with the different areas. I have had to cater my expectations to the living world that we play in, and take that same approach from my PCs point of view.

While I think that the points discussed here are certainly valid and worthy of the discussion, I feel that the position that one cannot play antagonistically due to the power level of other players is just not true. If you are just starting off you are only going to be as antagonistic as you can be. If you find yourself over stepping your bounds and unable to contend with the attention you have drawn, that is your own fault (by that I mean the PC not the player). An unskilled criminal will be unlikely to get away with committing a risky crime. It is the same in the server and should be. That's just my opinion. That, and the best villains are the ones that you think are your friend the whole time.

I can confirm I've been able to aimably antagonist people with ungeared underlevel sorcerers, level 2 thugs, and other horribly unoptimal builds.
Even PvP isn't really that much about being 'optimal' - Getting the drop on someonee with you and your mates is vastly more important than whatver is in your item slot and a level or two.
That said, most antagonistic roleplay involves /very/ little PvP conflict.

HirtZirk

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 75

wanna be radical? wanna promote rp and maybe create actual trade?
lock the crafts by race.
give the dwarves the metals.
the elves woodworking
halflings herbalism
humans clothing
gnomes alchemy
leatherworking??  humans and elves?

then if you make an arrow, make a shield etc you need to trade and rp

I don't have much to say on this thread, however this sparked an idea I'd like to put forward as a suggestion, and possibly expecting that it's a -lot- of work and wouldn't be implemented anytime soon.

What you suggested is understandable dutchy, but I think a bit too extreme. You want to promote RP and collaboration in trade? Locking up the crafts behind races is not the way to go but, I think race-locked recipes are a good idea. Only dwarves can smith this one type of waraxe, or only an elven tailor can make that one type of suit, etc... it's a lot of work, yes. Just something I am throwing out there though. The recipes should be worth the time to seek out these certain crafters, it'd give people an incentive to seek out grinding certain crafts depending on their race, and it'd increase RP and trade. This is also lore appropriate, as each race in D&D has some *secrets* in some crafts they guard, and only they can make certain things.

I dont like the idea to lock craft with Race but maybe making crafted Items degrade (time use dmg or any other reason) could be a way to nerf them witout nerfing they use. also would be great for crafter and would improve that gold sink people mention.

Merry Munchkin

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
but I am saying that you cannot ropleplay a talented bard with 4 perform, a skilled duelist with BAB 3 or a dedicated arcanist who can only cast cantrips. That would be cheesing.

Please know that I am not criticizing the poster, but rather criticizing the sentiment in this particular part of the post.  This sentiment bothers me to no end, because I see it echoed in so many other posts in so many other threads.

Of course you can roleplay these, no cheese required.  You roleplay them in any level-appropriate scenario.  Your second level bard (who should have a perform of a minimum of 5 at that level, before modifiers), will be an astounding guitar player to a bunch of other level 2s who have never picked up a lute, let alone played one.  You can sing, dance, rhyme, or do hand puppets -- whatever floats your boat.  And everyone around you will play along, like we do with everyone else.  If you are a level 2 trying to RP a talent contest against a level 20, you will likely lose just based on skill roles, but RP is more than 2 players rolling [perform] and comparing numbers, then declaring victory.  RP would be damn boring if it was just roll-playing and not role-playing.  Put on your best RP talent show, and let the other player put on theirs.  At the end of it all, you can roll your perform scores and the crowd can decide on a winner based on whatever criteria they choose, whether that be in accordance with your roll or not.

Your skilled arcanist can still do more at level 2 than any local peasant.  If you are trying to pretend to be Gandalf the Grey or Merlin right out of the starting gate, then nobody will take you seriously (not even the peasants), but perhaps starting out as Schmendrick from "The Last Unicorn" may be more believable at level 2, and offer a wealth of creative RP opportunities.  Even Merlin had to start somewhere (think of Mickey Mouse in "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" from "Fantasia").

Quite honestly, I don't understand the preoccupation with needing great equipment or needing to level up to increase your skill rolls, ability scores, feats, or whatever -- when it comes to RP, most of that is blindingly irrelevant.  Those things certainly matter in PvE, but not for RP.


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP

Merry Munchkin

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
The server tries very hard to emulate PnP D&D, a system that was at its core a war game. Almost every rule contributes to the progression and mechanical prowess of your character, with RP being something you build around it. The game is structured around adventure, levelling up, and loot. If you separate that from D&D, then you should basically be playing any other system because D&D's strongest points are its well-defined mechanics, not its storytelling flexibility.

I suppose this is a more existential point being raised -- i.e. what is D&D at its root, or what is it supposed to be?  It has changed over the years.  If you want to go to its roots all the way back to TSR's "Chainmail", then I suppose you can say it started as a war game for miniatures.  But when D&D and AD&D were first developed, it was entirely role-playing, not mechanics.  I know this for a fact, because the mechanics were downright primitive, and players had to make up rules on the fly for situations they would get themselves into.  DMs had to wing it more often than not, because there were no tables or matrixes to consult for anything beyond basic combat.  Those mechanics started to get more formalized with 2nd Edition, and the focus started to become more and more about dice rolls than about negotiating things out between players and DM using the art of persuasion.  As 3rd edition and later editions came out, it seems as though everything became run by formulae.  This became even more so when the games became computerized, because the programming needed to have everything reduced to mathematical algorithms in order to have any single-player computer functionality.  Now, D&D and its brethren have become largely shackled to numbers -- I suppose this is inevitable in any evolution of a game, when the accretion of hard rules to cover all scenarios eventually takes over, and rule books evolve from simple pamphlets to multiple hardback tomes.

All this said, I should emphasize that just because the game itself has become mechanical in its orientation, that does not mean players must be shackled to the math.  One of the beauties of a PW is that it has the ability to do things beyond the math.  A single-player game can't do this, but the minute you add more individuals to the mix, human interaction occurs that no algorithm can or should account for.

Some players choose to be slaves to the numbers.  I have chosen to play beyond the numbers.  I suppose the difference is whether you prefer to have the game play you, or you play the game.


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP