Author Topic: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever  (Read 5492 times)

pretty

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2022, 01:38:36 AM »
Just add fields with crafting material for tailoring.

Lowbies will be collecting it for money and it won't clug dungeons by high levels.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2022, 02:17:58 AM »
Bold of you to assume High Levels won't just hog the fields as they just can do with the current farmeable areas such as Spider Caves and other Wooly Goats forests... Let's be honest here. If people aren't willing to moderate themselves and let lowbies farm for them, they won't. If it's more efficient (both time and money wise) to just go where the resources are and farm by yourself for a couple of minutes, it's what people will do. Sure. It craps all over good RP opportunity where you buy stuff from lowbies trying to earn some gold, but hey. People like their play-pretend bank account.

EarlofEtheria

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2022, 12:59:55 PM »
I'd advise that the thread's titular blame on 14+ characters may be misplaced.

Spell casting classes can grind out materials solo in Western Barovia, even as early as level 7. Given that levels are hidden from others, a healthy tempering should exist in discussion. Raw level only equates to feats/AC/AB/spells, and much can be replaced by sources of consumable or crafted equipment. Shelgarn's Persistent Blade, (a spell available at a character's creation) summons a +1/20 soak entity, which is immune to most Western Barovian monsters beyond shapeshifters (spiders and crag cats being some of the easier prey for it). Evards is its own can of black worms, but there exists a varied spread of methods. Run enough cargo and you can reliably purchase premonition scrolls which have no level cap for use and a healthy duration for a day of grind.

So for me this discussion is more whether a starting zone in Western Barovia should have any crafting materials reachable except by the lowest of low levels (1-6). Perhaps it is time for a new entry area for new characters, with a one-way fog gate towards Vallaki. Players are free to return to the standard, but there could be a protected zone for those that don't want interference.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2022, 01:24:12 PM »
Bold of you to assume High Levels won't just hog the fields as they just can do with the current farmeable areas such as Spider Caves and other Wooly Goats forests... Let's be honest here. If people aren't willing to moderate themselves and let lowbies farm for them, they won't. If it's more efficient (both time and money wise) to just go where the resources are and farm by yourself for a couple of minutes, it's what people will do. Sure. It craps all over good RP opportunity where you buy stuff from lowbies trying to earn some gold, but hey. People like their play-pretend bank account.

Correct, people will often take the most efficient route toward attaining their goals. They should not be reprimanded or shamed for this. If the most efficient means of accomplishing their goals is to slum where they shouldn't be that is a problem of design. It is naïve to expect people to universally put up with another obstacle on what is already a far too arduous process (crafting). Reasonable, abundant, level appropriate alternatives should exist to remove the incentive to slum.

I don't think it's productive to turn a design problem into a point of social friction, or to pretend that one-off transactions are necessarily worth protecting. I'm discouraged from developing tight relations with low level characters because they'd spur me to involve myself in their stories, wherein as a high level I'd necessarily trample all over whatever stories are being told. The distance protects them as players, if not as characters.
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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2022, 01:42:41 PM »
This thread necro was unnecessary, this problem has more or less resolved itself, Tailoring is no longer the new hotness, the spider cave now has competition, and people can't even sell flax anymore. IF folks are farming a wester barovian dungeon, it's enough to get a bad or two and just be done until they need more.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2022, 03:16:47 PM »
This thread necro was unnecessary, this problem has more or less resolved itself, Tailoring is no longer the new hotness, the spider cave now has competition, and people can't even sell flax anymore. IF folks are farming a wester barovian dungeon, it's enough to get a bad or two and just be done until they need more.

Not really. I have many alts around and frequently see people that are "MC material" in Vallaki Outskirts.

Ok, I agree, it is very hard to point fingers (when a high leve in the outskirts is selling or fishing for PVP?) but I can tell you that once I was with a lvl 9 party in the Werebats and got caught in a Time Stop spell.
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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #81 on: July 05, 2022, 09:37:33 AM »
I agree the necro for this wa not needed. The situation has calmed down. Yes there are "mist camp" level players in the outskirts, however I do not think it is in the disruptive manner it was when tailoring got its major update. The new dungeon in Port has helped solve a lot of the outskirt issues. The majority of "mist campers" in outskirts seem to be peddling wares, buying crafting ingredients or role palying. The "crisis" suffered the other month is no longer around.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #82 on: July 05, 2022, 10:43:09 AM »
I agree the necro for this wa not needed. The situation has calmed down. Yes there are "mist camp" level players in the outskirts, however I do not think it is in the disruptive manner it was when tailoring got its major update. The new dungeon in Port has helped solve a lot of the outskirt issues. The majority of "mist campers" in outskirts seem to be peddling wares, buying crafting ingredients or role palying. The "crisis" suffered the other month is no longer around.

Sunday, when our 12, 7, 9 group was departing from the werebats a wiz dressed in premonition was entering there. Saturday a known lvl 20 arrived alone at lysaga saw us and ran back. This same known lvl 20 was later seen soloing cursts. Ok that this is not Vallaki, but the theme of "misplaced hugh levels" are there.

The actual "party mechanic" of the server seems to be soloing easy places or gathering an army for hard places.

The situation did not calm down, people gave up complaining, for now.
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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2022, 11:13:38 AM »
lvl 20s get bored as well... it's not they are denied entries anywhere. Crusts and Lysaga are hardly "low level". It's not that capped characters can only do malthor and sleeping king or they have to be chased around with a broom.


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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2022, 11:46:58 AM »
lvl 20s get bored as well... it's not they are denied entries anywhere. Crusts and Lysaga are hardly "low level". It's not that capped characters can only do malthor and sleeping king or they have to be chased around with a broom.

Ok, Cursts is not low level, Lysaga I'd classify as Mid. But that doesn't exclude the easily observable phenomenom of high levels solo-farming areas that are not designed for them, the original complaint.

To me, the problem is more the soloing mid/low level content (and even high) instead of partying. When you solo you clear content that would bring fun to (ideally) four to five people. In the end, you have half a dozen the mid level bored and one high level content. I will not keep discussing it, but the problem was not solved (and maybe never will).

The Dev team already punctuated that they prefer to avoid hard limits to playing style but tend to stimulate the behaviour they want (group playing and RP), but there is only that much that can be done with that. Appealing to people's goodwill can only get you so much and selfishness is not a crime, but we all should keep in mind that every dungeon you clear alone as a high level you take from a mid level group. Insert here a quote about the need of the many outweighting the need of the few, utilitarianism and the community creating a good experience to the most of the playerbase.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #85 on: July 05, 2022, 01:37:10 PM »
ALright, so I have played a high level in the outskirts, but when doing so, I opted to take the role of trying to generate rp and plot. I think a lot of the issues stems around a few things, this belief that once you hit level 14 you HAVE to leave barovia  (this is new to me, if it's a rule please show me the post with it.) What has been done was to limit and cap the rp exp gained by those of higher levels. Now that's not to say that the entirety of barovia is that way, it's only really western barovia, eastern barovia is untouched. However it makes little sense to really linger in the village due to the nature of the place itself. So where does that leave higher level barovian/gundarakite to go? It gives you a push away from the natural setting, and forced into another domain or to populate a tiny village that is supposed to be pretty empty. The other options is to continue where it makes sense for your character to be.

A high level in the outskirts doesn't need to involve themselves in combat or A/MPCs. I actively tried to avoid them on Erzsebet for the reason of my level and I felt it would be better off for the lower levels to hunt. Sure if asked erzsebet would share her knowledge, which is what someone in that position of a high level (in my opinion) should do. We can either be an issue or we can take the higher road and try to act as mentor, leaders, guides, crafters, etc. They can create and generate stories and give low levels guidance or things to do.

If the issue is about high levels going to the low level areas to destroy monsters and solo, they may be going there for a type of crafting material that you can't really get elsewhere. Demon horns are only in lysaga and perfidus to my knowledge. I think there's some in the rakhasha dungeon too? There is also the possibility that while they are a high level, or have enough UMD to use scrolls, they aren't familiar with other areas that could provide what they are after. Albeit if it's for crafting, the easiest solution is to hire lower levels to go there and get it. Even go there and buff them so they can clear the dungeon.

POTM is a roleplay server, it's not a mmo, it's not a combat oriented server. It's designed to put roleplaying and generating stories first. Sometimes with crafting, especially if you are starting out it may be cheaper and easier to solofarm places that provide those materials. Ultimately it's not so much an issue with the server, more so a way of playing. Maybe there are people who want to solo things and just aren't aware of the action server which (I think?) was designed for that sort of thing. Or perhaps they don't have a huge amount of coin o buy things needed. Also herbs are often in dungeons and with the way invisibility now breaks if you fail a check, any mage that wants to gather those dungeon herbs has to either buy them, hire someone to get it, or brave the dungeon.

I think the best way may be to simply treat it in character, ask why they are doin what they are doing, ask if they could take you somewhere stronger for the whole crew?  Use it as a means to try to find some new rp. If there is something happening that is truly detrimental to the setting the dm team aren't really scary, and they can help.
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myrddraal

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2022, 02:07:28 PM »
Reduce the grind on xp for trade skills and add more locations that yield benefits at higher levels.  That should push people to other areas.  The spider infested brothel in port is a great example of this being done as a viable way to get silk, loot, and xp at higher levels.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2022, 02:50:31 PM »
Neither Lysaga nor the Curst are Western Barovia. Even so:

Quote
Don't clear dungeons or hang around in low level zones with your high level character. Even the Western Outskirts should be avoided if you are around level 10 or above. The danger of a situation is set by the strongest presence on each side.

Don't solo dungeons when there's a party to be had. Dungeon adventures should be considered roleplay opportunities too.

Soren characterizes the above in this manner:

Quote
These are as much guidelines as they are rules, something we won't rigidly enforce, but that we expect all to give effort to adhere to and help remind each other of.

High levels can have IC reasons for going to Western Barovia, but from the above they should specifically avoid the WO--perhaps particularly at night because that is when their presence diminishes any sense of danger.

And soloing appears frowned upon regardless of level. (Nevertheless, soloing also is inevitable because of how much time players have to devote to the server to achieve their goals, as well as real-life factors--e.g. time zones.)


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ladylena

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2022, 03:07:34 PM »
One thing that could be done would be to perhaps add a different city/town that would be more setting suitable for players of a higher level to congregate in Barovia. The village is a nice little spot but it only offers crafting, and other than the morning lord church it's not very friendly for rp beyond dungeons especially if we try to remain true to the setting. If there was another barovian town/city/village added that gave high levels the rp exp then I would be willing to bet there would be fewer in the outskirts. Right now in barovia there isn't much in the way of places for higher levels to rp, and while it is a preferance to avoid the outskirts, right now most things are centered there, and it doesn't make much sense for a character who is barovian/gundarakite to suddenly move to another country because they hit a certain level, when their story is very much centered in their home.

There have always been issues with high levels around the outskirts and the best way to handle it is (again in my opinion) to take a different role when you're high level. Encourage people to go inside at night, encourage players to seek safety in churches along with your high level, offering to make sure they get in safe without engaging the monster and showing fear. It's easy for a high level not to be afraid of the mechanical stuff they can defeat but everyone has mundane fears that can be played upon when you get too high a level to be able to engage in combat. Perhaps they are afraid of dying, or maybe a certain type of monster gives them the hibejeebies.

It could really be benefitial to have another place that is setting appropriate for rp for higher levels in Barovia. That I would think, would be enough to get the bulk out of the outskirts and drain and leave the area for the lower levels, while being able to continue rp in Barovia, instead of switching to a different domain.
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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2022, 03:22:45 PM »
@ladylena: you are correct, it is possible to hang around Vallaki without disturbing the setting. I myself bring my pcs there from time to time to sell stuff.

The problem is the players that openly and willfully chose to go to Vallaki to farm gold and items.

When they go to gather reagents I kinda understand. But many times (more often than not) they don't. The quarry drops no reagents and is farmed, for instance.

I hope I am not sounding confrontational, I agree with your points, but players hanging around behaving as mentirs, tutors, commerciants are not the proplem. The problem are the players that put on a premonition to run the quarry casting timestops to ninjaloot a level 11 dungeon to gather fantasy money in a server almost 20 years old.

I hope that these debates helps exposing some ou insatisfaction with some behaviour, for we are counting on people's common sense. It is the best we can do.
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ladylena

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2022, 03:48:50 PM »
Quary? Not familiar with that one, unless you mean the copper quary? which is a good starting point for smelting/smithing.

I think the next best thing we can do is those of us familiar with the setting doing our best to redirect things IC towards setting integrety. Of course if someone is being disruptive that's something that should be escalated.
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Lex Talionis

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2022, 09:17:06 PM »
I agree the necro for this wa not needed. The situation has calmed down. Yes there are "mist camp" level players in the outskirts, however I do not think it is in the disruptive manner it was when tailoring got its major update. The new dungeon in Port has helped solve a lot of the outskirt issues. The majority of "mist campers" in outskirts seem to be peddling wares, buying crafting ingredients or role palying. The "crisis" suffered the other month is no longer around.

Sunday, when our 12, 7, 9 group was departing from the werebats a wiz dressed in premonition was entering there. Saturday a known lvl 20 arrived alone at lysaga saw us and ran back. This same known lvl 20 was later seen soloing cursts. Ok that this is not Vallaki, but the theme of "misplaced hugh levels" are there.

The actual "party mechanic" of the server seems to be soloing easy places or gathering an army for hard places.

The situation did not calm down, people gave up complaining, for now.

If you're having issues with players acting inappropriately, you should be bringing it to the DM team in private not airing out your dirty laundry here on the forums.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2022, 09:44:24 PM »
@ladylena: you are correct, it is possible to hang around Vallaki without disturbing the setting. I myself bring my pcs there from time to time to sell stuff.

The problem is the players that openly and willfully chose to go to Vallaki to farm gold and items.

When they go to gather reagents I kinda understand. But many times (more often than not) they don't. The quarry drops no reagents and is farmed, for instance.

I hope I am not sounding confrontational, I agree with your points, but players hanging around behaving as mentirs, tutors, commerciants are not the proplem. The problem are the players that put on a premonition to run the quarry casting timestops to ninjaloot a level 11 dungeon to gather fantasy money in a server almost 20 years old.

I hope that these debates helps exposing some ou insatisfaction with some behaviour, for we are counting on people's common sense. It is the best we can do.

Personally I have found the presence of high level crafters in the outskirts disruptive. From a setting perspective theres no issue, but it screws up the server economy. Personally, I prefer the outskirts being where starting crafters can get their foothold and if you want higher tier items, you are saving up and making the journey.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2022, 10:35:55 PM »
Hi, high level here. The perceived problem with high levels (crafting or otherwise) is nothing new. I want to make it clear however it's the loud minority not the majority. You cant police a high level to leave a zone and to do so is poor form. If you feel a player is being willfully ignorant of other players or is doing something they shouldn't, rather than making a topic like this you should ask for guidance from the DMs or CC.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #94 on: July 06, 2022, 03:00:14 AM »
Do I come out? Well, darnit.
I am not a high level, but I have to admit I love cheesing content. That's something G that gives me satisfaction, and on the other side, tackling solo a place meant for several ayers a few levels your junior is also a challenge.
Moreover, as I said, you cannot corral 20lvls in perf. The server is open to them as to everyone else, and there are dungeons that people like doing. Now, it would be a problem if someone were to cheese Lysaga every two hours, but since I doubt this is the case, I believe this is a non issue. There is plenty of other options for lvl10-15 to go partying to, literally any other place outside Western barovia. So be patient if sometimes even grandpa wants a turn on your PlayStation.


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William Roberts

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #95 on: July 06, 2022, 09:00:54 AM »
You cant police a high level to leave a zone and to do so is poor form. If you feel a player is being willfully ignorant of other players or is doing something they shouldn't, rather than making a topic like this you should ask for guidance from the DMs or CC.

Technically, the server rules encourage players to help "police" this behavior.

Quote
These are as much guidelines as they are rules, something we won't rigidly enforce, but that we expect all to give effort to adhere to and help remind each other of....

(Emphasis added.)


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ladylena

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #96 on: July 06, 2022, 09:23:07 AM »
You cant police a high level to leave a zone and to do so is poor form. If you feel a player is being willfully ignorant of other players or is doing something they shouldn't, rather than making a topic like this you should ask for guidance from the DMs or CC.

Technically, the server rules encourage players to help "police" this behavior.

Quote
These are as much guidelines as they are rules, something we won't rigidly enforce, but that we expect all to give effort to adhere to and help remind each other of....

(Emphasis added.)

It's been stated before, if there is something that is being done that one feels is going against the server rules or being detrimental to the setting it should be reported. What players can do is to report instances that feel like they are breaking the immersion of the setting. While we can post things and make suggestions to help players become more aware of the setting that we are all in, issues with how players play and if they are contributing or going against the setting are things that the DM team and the CC are there for. They are great people and we should not fear asking them questions or reporting issues or things that we may percieve as issues which may actually be totally ok. Have trust in the DM team they and the CC are here for the community as a whole to help.

If you encounter someone you suspect or know is a high level perhaps approach them IC and ask them why they are fighting things that are no challenge, or ask them to teach you how to be able to fight those things so easily. We can encourage each other IC to be true to the setting without being detrimental or rude to each other. High levels will always be around, that's just how it is. We can encourage them to go elsewhere, but ultimately it is the player and the DMs choice.
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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #97 on: July 06, 2022, 09:51:33 AM »
We can encourage them to go elsewhere, but ultimately it is the player and the DMs choice.

This is why I do not report (and do not plan on doing that).

We all (players, devs, CC, etc.) know in more or less detail who are the higher levels, what are the designed zones, etc. It is not unlawful, prohibited or forbidden to bring a levl 17 (at least) wiz do the Quarry (area designed for a party of lvl 9), the server is open to many playstyles and this is GOOD.

As it was pointed somewhat ironically above "grandpa also wants a shot at the playstation". We all want to have fun! We all have our lives and want a shot at the nostalgy machine.

The problem is that between the "Ideal Playstyle" and the "prohibited paystyle" there is a gray zone. I'd prefer that my fellow players tried to adhere to a playstyle that brings optimum enjoyment of the server, but between reporting and debating in the forums, I'll go with debating any given day.
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Lex Talionis

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #98 on: July 06, 2022, 01:52:54 PM »
We can encourage them to go elsewhere, but ultimately it is the player and the DMs choice.

This is why I do not report (and do not plan on doing that).

We all (players, devs, CC, etc.) know in more or less detail who are the higher levels, what are the designed zones, etc. It is not unlawful, prohibited or forbidden to bring a levl 17 (at least) wiz do the Quarry (area designed for a party of lvl 9), the server is open to many playstyles and this is GOOD.

As it was pointed somewhat ironically above "grandpa also wants a shot at the playstation". We all want to have fun! We all have our lives and want a shot at the nostalgy machine.

The problem is that between the "Ideal Playstyle" and the "prohibited paystyle" there is a gray zone. I'd prefer that my fellow players tried to adhere to a playstyle that brings optimum enjoyment of the server, but between reporting and debating in the forums, I'll go with debating any given day.

I think my point was that rather than call out individuals in a public forum for the way they enjoy playing, keep it to a discussion between you and the DM team.  If you notice the same lvl 20 bogarting low level content, then it's worth reporting because they have little business monopolizing resources, whether it be loot, crafting materials, or something else.  If it's something that only happens occasionally, there's probably a reasonable explanation for why they're there, in which case, we shouldn't be calling them out on the forums for playing the way they like to play.

Unfortunately, we can't control how other players behave. We shouldn't try. We can only control our own experiences which means adapting to the "living world" that's happening around us.

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Re: High levels (14+) in Western Barovia more disruptive than ever
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2022, 02:17:50 PM »
We can encourage them to go elsewhere, but ultimately it is the player and the DMs choice.

This is why I do not report (and do not plan on doing that).

We all (players, devs, CC, etc.) know in more or less detail who are the higher levels, what are the designed zones, etc. It is not unlawful, prohibited or forbidden to bring a levl 17 (at least) wiz do the Quarry (area designed for a party of lvl 9), the server is open to many playstyles and this is GOOD.

As it was pointed somewhat ironically above "grandpa also wants a shot at the playstation". We all want to have fun! We all have our lives and want a shot at the nostalgy machine.

The problem is that between the "Ideal Playstyle" and the "prohibited paystyle" there is a gray zone. I'd prefer that my fellow players tried to adhere to a playstyle that brings optimum enjoyment of the server, but between reporting and debating in the forums, I'll go with debating any given day.

I think my point was that rather than call out individuals in a public forum for the way they enjoy playing, keep it to a discussion between you and the DM team.  If you notice the same lvl 20 bogarting low level content, then it's worth reporting because they have little business monopolizing resources, whether it be loot, crafting materials, or something else.  If it's something that only happens occasionally, there's probably a reasonable explanation for why they're there, in which case, we shouldn't be calling them out on the forums for playing the way they like to play.

Unfortunately, we can't control how other players behave. We shouldn't try. We can only control our own experiences which means adapting to the "living world" that's happening around us.

I can agree that you have a point. I'll try to approach the question with less bitterness.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier