Public (OOC) > Setting and Lore Discussion

Some Considerations about Kelemvor and Jergal

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Holgard:


I'd first like to disclaim that I run a player faction that revolves around Kelemvor and Jergal, I am biased in this. But despite that I still believe my arguments make sense and I urge you to read through them all before making your post.

So, memes aside I'd like people to consider what I have to say regarding the domains of Kelemvor and subsequently Jergal. The TLDR version of this post is that I believe Kelemvor especially should still have Repose Domain, potentially even Jergal; it still fits but only in certain circumstances. The only reason I am seeing that Repose Domain has been omitted from Kelemvor is because of the belief the altered version in POTM does not fit with him anymore, so lets take a closer look and inspect their differences.


Looking at the 3e version of repose domain there are some pretty clear differences between it and the POTM variant, the main difference is it's daily power:



3e - Once a day, the spellcaster could kill a target instantly with but a touch, though the difficulty was affected by both the skill of the user and the strength of the target.

POTM - Final Rest: If the cleric has twice as many levels as the undead have Hit Die, the undead are instantly destroyed.



As we can see, there is a stark contrast between the two that is undeniable. The third edition version of this power exists for good aligned clerics to have a death spell of sort and to slay the living using it. While in POTM it is about destroying and rebuking the undead. The difference is substantial, but both of these fit very well into Kelemvor's Dogma. In fact, the POTM variant fits it better than the third edition version does.

Taken directly from the forgotten realms Wiki:
--- Quote ---The death clergy, as they were known, had many duties; most involved tending to the last wishes of the dying and providing burial services to those who died alone. They also set out to cure diseases and defend people from monsters so that folk did not die before their time. Their final and arguably most important task was the destruction of undeath in all its various forms as it was an affront to Kelemvor. Elite priests of Kelemvor were known as Doomguides. Servants of Kelemvor were usually clad in somber gray vestments and brandished hand-and-a-half swords, or bastard swords.
--- End quote ---

The purpose of Kelemvor's Clergy holds a great many things, however as stated above the most important part is the destruction of the Undead and returning them to their final rest as they are an affront to Kelemvor, the god of the Dead. The POTM repose domain's main ability is about rebuking the undead, about destroying them and returning them to their proper rest. As you can see, that exactly aligns with Kelemvor. It's not something that only his elite orders do, it's something that all clergy members are expected to be able to accomplish.

Jergal, while he largely expects his followers to focus on the book keeping and logging of the dead, he has various orders in his service that exist to destroy unsanctioned necromancers and the undead. While the argument in his favor is less fool proof as Kelemvor's, it still is worth mentioning for those whom wish to play members of the Pallid Mask.



Spells:

3e - Deathwatch, Gentle Repose, Speak with Dead, Death Ward, Slay Living, Undeath to Death, Destruction, Surelife, Wail of the Banshee.

POTM - Raise Dead, Resurrection, Undeath's Eternal Foe.

I will not go through and the entire 3e list because it matters less, but I will paraphrase. In third edition the spell line up is meant to protect the user from death, allow them to preserve and speak to the dead, and to slay the living using death spells. This all fits Kelemvor, as well as Jergal. However the POTM variant is what we care about. I argue, that still these spells flawlessly integrate into Kelemvor's Dogma, I will explain below.

Raise Dead / Resurrection: Kelemvor does not frown upon resurrections, in fact in my opinion he encourages it and this is how I roleplay it. He wants everyone to die at their specific time, no sooner, no later. There will be a time that someone will die and he wishes for one of his clergy members to be present to ease their passing and ensure they do not die afraid or uncomfortable.

"But Holgard, why would the god of Death want his Clergy to Resurrect people." Well humble reader, that is because if someone is being resurrected it is very likely they have died before their time. In the perfect world with Kelemvor as god of death, people should only be passing in advanced age. If someone dies before their time, such as through being maimed by a monster, or to disease, or as a child, this is not allowing them to have the full and well rounded life that he desires all to have. Clergy of Kelemvor cure diseases, slay monsters, and ensure that people do not die 'BEFORE THEIR TIME.' That includes resurrecting them should they be too late to the defense and a more reactionary measure must be taken.


Undeath's Eternal Foe: This is an easy explanation, a high level spell that assists its user into destroying the dead. This can only be wielded by levelled characters and it also fits Kelemvor's desire to destroy the plague of undeath upon the world. It fits so well that it doesn't really need any extended explanation. It also fits Jergal's Dogma when it comes to his religious orders such as the Pallid Mask, whom seek out unsanctioned undead and destroy them.


As I hope you can see, POTM's variation of Repose domain fits very squarely into Kelemvor's Relationship, Charge, and Dogma. So I believe completely that he should be the first Faerunian God that should receive it as a domain. Anglo Saxon gods have received it, there's an Aztec god that has -all- domains, let's throw Kelemvor a bone and give him Repose Domain. It's not like it's ludicrously powerful, being able to one hit kill a Skeletal Knight at level 16 is not particularly strong, considering you can do that already and in a large group. It fits him in it's altered form.

Jergal I think should have a consideration to receiving the Repose Domain as well. Kelemvor and Jergal work hand in hand, Jergal's religious orders fit at least 50% with the new Repose Domain so it's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

Gavalen:
I agree with what is written here.

The Repose domain is an integral part of what Kelemvor stands for. And helping the fallen and fighting against the undead is absolutely perfect for him. A less terrifying view of death, as it was under Mykrul and Jergal.

Though most of (if not all of) Jergals clergy fight against the unsanctioned undead, making Repose domain a perfect fit for him aswell. After all, the proloning of life is against everything he stands for, for he is the 'Lord of the End of Everything'.

With the addition of more religions, and more gods having the domain, prehaps it's time for a re-evaluation of the domains power. Is it really that powerful, should it really be restricted?

King_Abear:
I don't see why Kelemvor especially wouldn't have this domain. It makes a lot of sense for him.

Jergal I could take or leave, I could understand an argument for or against it.

I appreciate the effort put in arguing about themes, since this domain kinda sucks and it couldn't have come from a powerbuilding standpoint.

Chadyo:
I was suprised to see that this isn't allowed yet, it makes perfect sense to me for Kelemvor and his servants to have this domain. Despite the fact I know very little about clerics, or divine characters.

farhorizon:
The repose domain (3.5 source version) is a less evil death domain that seems suspiciously close to Kelemvor's overall thematic shift of the dogma of death away from Myrkul that maybe it was designed specifically for him originally?  Even with the potm changes to the spells/etc it seems to really fit Kelemvor's dogma.

It doesn't seem super powerful either, so adding it seems like a great way to add flavor.

Edit:  I don't know the HD of creatures on potm, so I suppose I don't know which ones would become destroyable at what level.  However, most things I have fought for xp have way more hp than my characters, so I assume we'd never get xp for things half our HD.

Note:  I have a Kelemvor cleric and I am totally happy with my current domains & wouldn't ask for a change of them. However, this is great rp flavor that should be available.

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