Author Topic: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.  (Read 1307 times)

remnar

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A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« on: February 11, 2022, 05:21:06 PM »


I was interested in making a warmage, but I was curious on how warmage EDGE worked.  I had seen some pictures of insanely high damage from the test server, so I did some research on how warmage EDGE worked and what spells were good for exploiting EDGE.
So please, read the whole post or don’t read it at all.

I love that the extra damage is called EDGE.  I love that there is a feat called EXTRA EDGE.
I love warmage.  I haven’t played one yet and already I can see that there’s no reason to play any other caster if you just wanna blow stuff up.
But…just how much better IS warmage?

First, we have to discuss HOW warmage EDGE works.  The basic equation is

(Int Modifier + EXTRA EDGE modifier) * Spell level = Bonus damage

And the way EXTRA EDGE works is an additional 1 + 1 per 4 levels EDGE modifier, so at level twenty the warmage receives an EDGE bonus of 6 from EXTRA EDGE.
Additionally, meta-magic also affects the spell level for the purposes of EDGE damage.  So, a sixth level spell maximized counts as a ninth level spell.  This is important.
Also important, however, is that the EDGE bonus damage cannot go over the maximum damage the spell can do.  This means if a spell can only do 20 damage, regardless of how high the EDGE bonus would be, the spell will only ever do an extra 20 damage due to EDGE.

So, the total bonus damage per spell level a warmage could produce goes quite high.  In fact, I made a chart for this with a few example builds.
Build one is human with 17 int starting and a +5 from Fox’s cunning.  Build 2 is a +2 int subrace with 20 int starting and a +5 from Fox’s cunning.  Then, the third build is to be referred to “Intmaxed” as it will be a +2 int subrace with 19 or 20 int starting, and +12 int score bonus from greater and regular fox’s cunning (available from potions).  All these builds will be level 20 with the EXTRA EDGE feat.

As you can see here, even a regular human with 17 int starting can do as much damage with bonus EDGE damage as casters can do with maximized spells.  An INTMAXED build can do more damage with its bonus EDGE damage than warmages do with entire spells!
This becomes especially important once taking into account meta-magic.

See, when you empower a spell as a warmage, not only does the damage of the spell go up, but so does the maximum EGDE damage.  As an example, if a 10d10 spell is empowered it effectively becomes 15d10 damage, then the bonus EDGE damage goes from 100 to 150.  For many spells, even a human warmage might hit the EDGE damage limit, but once empowered, any build but especially the INTMAXED build will be able to use their maximum EDGE damage.

Now that we have the background information, here is the real meat and potatoes of warmage.
This class does a stupid amount of damage like did anyone test this before putting it out onto the server?
So, the main example we will be looking at is Blade Barrier.  This is a 20d6 damage spell (120 Maximized) with a reflex-half save and a duration of 1 round/level.  As it is a ‘ground’ spell, it cares only about the reflex of a character and disregards saves vs spells.  Reportedly, it also does damage before the effect is clearly visible on the floor.
The maximum bonus EDGE damage is 120, but when empowered the EDGE damage can go up to 180.

As you can see here, the warmage does, without meta-magic, a little over double base damage.  Empowered, he does even more damage – triple damage over a regular caster!  Now, a human warmage cannot hit the max-damage bonus with an unempowered or empowered blade barrier – but he can with a maximized blade barrier.  That is 240 damage per round in a 30-foot-long wall!  As an aside, I also included empowered INTMAXED damage.  As you recall, the damage bonus for them is 152 at 8th level.  This means it does even MORE damage that a human’s maximized blade barrier on average – three and a half times as much as a regular caster!
As a side note, the damage values in this graph are all generated from 20 to 30 rolls of 6 dice (or random number locked to 1-6) and then added and collated into a table.  So, unlike some other graphs in this post, the damage here is realistic and shows the actual range of damage a warmage will see.
Like, wow, that is a lot of damage!  This is just one ROUND of damage in one CAST.  A warmage has sorcerer spell amounts too, so they can throw out who knows how many.
Now we have a comparison of the builds possible for warmage (and a non-warmage).

This just shows us again the ranges of damage depending on the dice roll of each spell empowered for each build.  Unless INTMAXED most warmages will want to maximize, not empower, their blade barriers.  Empowering is for spells where the warmage has more EDGE damage than the spell would allow.

“But remnar, that’s just one spell at level 20!  No one will be at that level!”
I hear you; I hear your cries of anguish and despair.  And I will answer them.
So I looked at how much damage a human warmage would do with various spells at various levels.
The spells I chose are Combust, ice storm, fireball, polar ray, force orb, meteor storm, lesser sound orb, and everyone’s favorite acid fog.  I mostly picked these at random, aside from Combust.
Combust is an interesting spell because it lights the target on fire until they pass a reflex save.  Even at a low level, the DC of this save can be about 22.  Normally it is okay but with a warmage it becomes a real humdinger of a spell.

These next graphs take the maximum damage that a spell can do, which normally is only do-able by maximizing it, but for ease of creating the graphs and for looking at them (and compressing them into only two) that’s the way it is.
This first graph is the damage a regular caster can expect.


This second graph is the damage a human warmage would get (if he could auto-maximize) at all levels these spells are available.


These two graphs have the same x and y axes.  As you can see, warmage just does so much more damage that, I mean, why do regular casters even try?  This is all without empowering or truly maximizing (as otherwise the warmage will get a higher EDGE bonus).  Both graphs have a maximized warmage blade barrier as a comparison.

As a little extra treat, warmage is an int caster, so they have plenty of skill points!
A human warmage with 17 int starts with six skill points, which allows them to take the 4 good class skills: Parry, discipline, concentration, and spellcraft.  This allows them to invest into two more cross-classes, one of which will probably be tumble.
Then, at level 4, they get another skill point.  Then at 12, another, and finally at 20, another but they cannot really use this one very well.


In conclusion, this stuff wack, yo.  I didn’t even talk about how they have an armor that gives auto-quicken 1 and 2.  For those that don’t know, that’s all spells up to 6th level that are automatically hasted!
I love warmage.  I love how much damage it can do.  I love how every damage spell at its disposal can do floor shaking amounts of damage.  I love how because of this it can use spells people might not use that much.  I love that it gets chain lightning – and makes it good!  This is not a call to nerf it.  I just wanted to bring attention to it – and to also show off the graphs I made in my madness to find out just how warmage worked.  They are very nice graphs.

I'd be happy to answer any questions or making more graphs for different spells or variations on build or level or whatever.  This actually kind of helps me get back into practice a little bit with excel.  And, so everyone can see that I didn't make up these numbers and graphs, I will also provide my excel sheet I used to make this to any who ask because I don't know how to just embed it here so whatever.

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Dardonas

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2022, 05:48:00 PM »
I still maintain that by the time a warmage can use the automatic quicken armor, they're still better off with an actual haste spell or potion because otherwise they're just moving around at a snails pace.  Warmages excel at what they are designed as: glass cannons.  A high level warmage used to the fullest capacity can make quick work of "end game" dungeons, though it's going to still be extremely difficult for them to solo things in an efficient manner.  And that's good because the DMs and Developers constantly encourage people to group up.  They can't disable traps or pick locks.  They can't conceal themselves without potions if they screw up.  They are on a high difficulty curve if you know how to manage things like AI.  They're pretty squishy with a d6 hit die. 

That said, yeah, they do a lot of damage and it'll probably lead to a lot of interesting strategies for "end game" content.  But I think for their drawbacks, that's their thing and I don't think they should be changed—not that I'm suggesting that's your intent.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 05:52:22 PM by Dardonas »

Facilis

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2022, 12:13:11 AM »
Those are some pretty damn gnarly numbers.   

Crowl

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2022, 02:27:17 AM »
Isn't the purpose of this class to have the spells no one ever uses because they're not worth it, but crank them up so they're actually worth using?

Desert trolls have like 250~300hp each, as much of a whopping overpowering, earth shattering single-target spell it seems to do 300 damage, when you use it against a player character in actuality it's barely worth it while doing PvE, and it's only worth it because it's... Well, it does the job. Otherwise you'd just do what other wizards do, empower other characters to do the job for you and watch from affar approvingly, or covering your face to hide the shame as you see them get slaughtered ridiculously.

Is it OP in PvP? Well, sure. But so are many other things, like HipS making anyone with hide/ms be unnable to be targeted yet attacking making them gods, or being crit'd by a sycthe weaponmaster in the face for 250 damage and getting an express ticket to the fuge before you even know what's going on. Even getting the drop by a fully warded (normal) wizard and getting wombo-combo'd by missle turret death or a beefed up save or suck spell.

Point being towards the end of the curve many things are obscene, but the Warmage seems like a one-trick pony for all the damage it does and the only way to play a mage that's not a buff slave or an acid fogger.

I may be completely wrong, I'm not a dev and I haven't played yet with a Warmage however so take my opinion on this with a huge grain of salt.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2022, 02:53:51 AM by Crowl »
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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2022, 02:56:10 PM »
They definitely are potent in PvP at high levels by then the warmages likely have gear, potions, etc to make up for some weaknesses. Some warmage builds do not even need to be pure warmage to get the best out of the class's damage even 12 levels of warmage with another class they still do some potent damage with multiclass offering discipline or sensory skills to make up for that weakness. In a room without anyone buffed in the room they can definitely 100 to 0 someone with quickened spell. That said I do not really have any opinion one way or the other on buffing or nerfing warmage as it is. There are not that many and most of them mostly do PvE content and have rarely been involved in PvP to give a good sample size of it in practice.
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Kaninchen

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2022, 03:46:40 PM »
Just taking a moment to agree with OP; they are indeed very nice graphs.

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2022, 08:08:12 PM »
I came here to see graphs, left thinking of a warmage build that stops at maybe 13 warmage.

This is some solid presentation.

remnar

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2022, 09:54:19 PM »
I did some more analysis of Warmage.  This time I looked at a good AOE spell, Flamestrike.
As a level 5 spell, the EDGE bonus is fairly low but due to it's (relatively) low damage even at level 5 the extra EDGE damage is capped out.

So, this time, I made a graph which takes into account caster level, empowering, and maximizing with and without warmage EDGE.
The results may be quite surprising.



From this graph we can see how caster level, when it comes to random dice rolls, sometimes might not have an effect.  I made a graph previous to this (which is unreadable garbage) that used purely random numbers and the damage curves in it would vary wildly with each random roll.  This gives warmage all the more power as it effectively has the spells' maximum damage as it's base damage.  EDGE really does give warmage quite the EDGE once you take random damage into account.

Did I say how much I love how warmage EDGE is called EDGE?  Because I do.  It makes every discussion of warmage a hoot.  I think it should be a bannable offense to not refer to warmage EDGE as EDGE.

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bestbardna

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2022, 01:25:34 AM »
Warmages certainly do a lot of damage with their spells. You might say it's their main ability. The numbers they can pull off are impressive, sure. But warmages fill one very specific niche, and putting them outside of that niche results in a great deal less effectiveness.

The Warmage does not buff his allies. He does not heal. He does not pick locks. He does not disable traps. He does not summon monsters. He does not front line. He does not tank.

What the Warmage does, is deliver the mail.

Let's take a look at the opposite side of the spectrum. If the Warmage delivers the damage, then the Cleric seems to be the one to mitigate it. Warmages can deal a lot of damage with a single spell, but a cleric can -heal- a lot of damage with a single spell. A warmage tosses a spell and deals 200 damage to a target (or maybe a group of targets, depending on the spell). The Cleric tosses a mass heal (7th level for the salvation domain) and heals everyone (and nukes all the undead targets) around the blast zone for 200 damage. Hell, a Cleric 15/Rpgue5 (Or Bard 5, or Beguiler 5) can also wear the Red Warmage chains, and fire off auto-quickened spells too. The difference of course, is that Clerics have access to more abilities than "Delivering the Mail".

If warmages had more going for them than delivering the mail, I might look at the charts and think "Oh, yeah, that is a bit weird."

However, it's not the case. They deal high, consistent damage (so long as their enemies don't make the save, or they don't miss with their spells), and the downside is that they're very squishy, and hyper specialized. Other spellcasters stop time, summon balors, turn into powerful creatures, Kill creatures without a saving throw, heal massive amounts of damage or nuke the undead, raise both elemental and physical defenses to extremely high degrees, and -also- deliver the mail. Do they deliver as much mail as the warmage? No, definitely not. A pure fighter can disable traps if he invests the skill points into it. He might even be good at it. But is he as good as a rogue? Probably not.

Quick Edit: When I outline the sort of roles that Warmages don't do, I should probably have said 'They don't do these things well'. Certainly a Warmage could put ranks in open lock, or go with a beefier fighter-type build and sort of front line, but it's not as effective as playing the class in it's intended fashion.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 01:32:41 AM by bestbardna »

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2022, 03:22:58 AM »
I don't know guys, dealing 4x the amount of damage of any other wizard seems excessive to me. Why does the warmage need to one shot trolls anyway? Bit silly if you ask me. Number go up is cool and all that, but I feel that returning the warmage to its intended position as a Cha caster would reign some of this nonsense in while still giving them a more than sizable head and shoulders over any competition. Just not literally quadruple so.

Vissy

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2022, 06:22:27 AM »
Their high damage isn't really that great, even against trolls. My level 16 Warmage still takes several spells to kill one troll.
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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2022, 10:38:58 AM »
They're fine and fit their role well. 

Changing them to a CHA caster at this point would be far too tedious because you'd be looking at a pile of full remakes not just relevels.



bestbardna

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2022, 12:49:47 PM »
I don't know guys, dealing 4x the amount of damage of any other wizard seems excessive to me. Why does the warmage need to one shot trolls anyway? Bit silly if you ask me. Number go up is cool and all that, but I feel that returning the warmage to its intended position as a Cha caster would reign some of this nonsense in while still giving them a more than sizable head and shoulders over any competition. Just not literally quadruple so.

They are not dealing quadruple damage when all things are considered equal. The only way they're doing quadruple the average damage of a spell is if they are using an EMPOWERED version of that spell compared to the AVERAGE damage of a NON-EMPOWERED spell. A fireball that does 10d6 damage will have an average of 35 damage. Empowered, it will deal an average of 53 damage. A warmage casting fireball will deal an additional 3x Edge up to a maximum of the spell's normal damage.

But what does that mean, in simple terms?

In the simplest terms, it means that instead of a Level 10 wizard's fireball dealing 10-60 damage with an average of 35, a level 10 warmage will more likely deal 37-60 damage, with an average of 48.5.

Can it be boosted higher at level 10? Certainly. Stack on out-of-kit buffs and you can boost that damage up impressively. With a very good empowered fox's cunning, you could have your int up to 29 if you're playing a +2 int race. 27 if you're not. With that sort of boost, you can up the damage to 46-60 damage, or 53 damage on average.

This means, at level 10, with a silly amount of int,, you can deal an extra 18 damage on average with a fireball if both are cast from a 3rd level spell slot. Stop the presses.

What about empowered spells? Well gee willikers, that means a wizard's fireball does 15-90 damage with an average of 52.5, and the INTMAX warmage at level 10 deals 69-90 with an average of 79.5 damage. A difference of 27 damage on a 5th level spell. Say whaaaaaaaaaa?

So let's review the numbers again.

Wizard Fireball (CL 10)- 10-60, Avg 35
Warmage Fireball (CL 10)- 37-60, Average 48.5
Warmage INTMAX Fireball (CL 10)- 46-60, Average 53.

Wizard Empowered Fireball (CL 10)- 15-90 Avg 52.5
Warmage Empowered Fireball (CL 10)- 55-90, Avg 72.5
Warmage INTMAX Empowered Fireball (CL10)- 69-90 Avg 79.5


So it's VERY clear that Warmages are not dealing 4x the damage of other casters. Next thing we should do is talk about the INTMAX numbers. In order to get these numbers, a Warmage needs to either get a friendly wizard willing to waste 4th level spell slots until he gets the RNG he needs for a max strength empowered Fox's Cunning, or he needs to chug expensive potions until he gets the RNG he needs. This is not sustainable or feasible, and arguing from the stance that this is the normal state for a warmage is disingenuous at best. What's more likely is that the warmage is going to have +3-4 to his Int from the average roll of a normal Fox's Cunning.

But even at the BEST of times, the warmage is dealing on average, 50% more damage than the wizard. This is good. This is fine. This is the cost of versatility.



So let's talk about higher Caster Levels, and higher cap spells. Let's talk about any of the 20d6 max damage spells. I'm not going to use charts and graphs, I'm just going to show you the raw numbers.

5th Circle Spell 20d6 max

Wizard- 10-120 damage, Average 70
Warmage (24 INT and Warmage Edge)- 45-120 Damage, Average 82.5
Warmage (INTMAX of 32 int and Warmage edge)- 95-120, Average of 107.5

Empowered 5th Circle Spell
Wizard- Average 105
Warmage (24 INT and Warmage Edge)- Average 123
Warmage (INTMAX of 32 int and Warmage edge)- Average 160.5



So again, Warmages are not doing 4x the damage of wizards. A warmage using an EMPOWERED 5th LEVEL SPELL (7th Level spellslot) deals over double the damage of a wizard using a NORMAL NON-EMPOWERED 5th LEVEL SPELL. This is working as intended and should not be changed.


BUT BESTBARDNA, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU BOOST THE SPELL LEVEL? DOESN'T THE DAMAGE GO CRAAAAAZY?

No, not really. Warmage average damage goes up due to Warmage edge when using higher level spells. When you're using really high level spells, you can even cap the damage. That's right, by investing your entire progression into dealing damage and restricting you from casting any other type of spell.... You can deal lots of damage. Absolute insanity.





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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2022, 01:01:40 PM »
I'm sure there was a reason behind tying the spellcasting to Int instead of Cha per PnP. I don't think there is any reason for changing its current implementation as they are far from problematic in both PvP and PvE.

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2022, 01:04:18 PM »
Admittedly similar change in numbers can be done by lowering the numbers that EDGE can reach and would be far simpler to implement. Though here's where I have a question because this does not seem right:

Wizard Fireball (CL 10)- 10-60, Avg 35
Warmage Fireball (CL 10)- 37-60, Average 48.5

Does EDGE not work as 10-60 + (EDGE up to 60) for an effective 70-120 (if capped)? This is my understanding of the mechanic. Quote per the feat's description, " This extra damage cannot exceed the maximum damage the spell would do without it."
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 01:06:24 PM by bloodless »

bestbardna

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2022, 01:13:04 PM »
I'm sure there was a reason behind tying the spellcasting to Int instead of Cha per PnP. I don't think there is any reason for changing its current implementation as they are far from problematic in both PvP and PvE.

I think we can probably guess at the reason. By splitting the spellcasting between Int and Cha, you force warmages to either

A) Invest heavily in Int for Warmage Edge to actually feel impactful, and severely curtail their spells per day by having a lower Cha (effectively becoming Sorcerer, but worse)

B) Invest heavily in Charisma for spellcasting, but then you're still just a SBW (Sorcerer but worse), because Warmage Edge does nothing and you're stuck using only damage spells

C) Invest a bit in both, and still be a SBW, as your warmage edge still doesn't feel impactful, and you aren't getting as many bonus spells from Cha as a Sorcerer does.



Warmage in it's current implementation deals on average 50% more damage with their damaging spells compared to a wizard using the same spell at the same level, and the tradeoff is a SEVERE lack of versatility. It's like the inverse of a Bard. Bards have only about 2/3rds the spellcasting of a wizard, but the tradeoff is they have a great deal more versatility with skills, bardsong, armoured casting, etc.

Changing the Warmage to be closer in line with it's pen and paper counterpart is an awful idea, because the Warmage in pen and paper is literally hot garbage that no one ever plays, even with the availability of stat boosting items, because warmage edge is literally trash in pen and paper. Imagine being level 20 in Warmage, and your only benefit to being unable to cast anything other than a hyper specialized list is dealing an extra 12 points of damage on your spells.

Admittedly similar change in numbers can be done by lowering the numbers that EDGE can reach and would be far simpler to implement. Though here's where I have a question because this does not seem right:

Wizard Fireball (CL 10)- 10-60, Avg 35
Warmage Fireball (CL 10)- 37-60, Average 48.5

Does EDGE not work as 10-60 + (EDGE up to 60) for an effective 70-120 (if capped)? This is my understanding of the mechanic. Quote per the feat's description, " This extra damage cannot exceed the maximum damage the spell would do without it."

No. Because the max of 10d6 damage is 60, not 120. If dealing with a 20d6 damage spell, then the max is 120, but the average damage of 20d6 for a Wizard is 70.  Warmage cannot deal more damage than the actual maximum of the spell, so a Wizard who casts a spell with a maximum of 60 damage can still only do a maximum of 60 damage when a warmage casts it. It's just that the warmage has a higher MINIMUM damage.

Retracted due to corrections from Dev team.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 01:38:57 PM by bestbardna »

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2022, 01:32:37 PM »
Quote
No. Because the max of 10d6 damage is 60, not 120. If dealing with a 20d6 damage spell, then the max is 120, but the average damage of 20d6 for a Wizard is 70.  Warmage cannot deal more damage than the actual maximum of the spell, so a Wizard who casts a spell with a maximum of 60 damage can still only do a maximum of 60 damage when a warmage casts it. It's just that the warmage has a higher MINIMUM damage.

That's incorrect; the bonus from Warmage edge cannot exceed the maximum damage the spell could do. So if a spell has a maximum damage output of 60 (eg. 10d6), then warmage edge can go up to 60 ontop of the 10d6. In this case, the spell could dish up to 10d6 + 60. Basically it always doubles the maximum damage output of a spell, hence why it's usually worth it to empower said spell. If the spell can do 10d6*1.5 (max 90), then the bonus from edge can hit 90.

Warmages thus have the potential to double (and even more since the bonus damage from edge isn't randomized) damage dealt by other casters casting the same spells, presuming of course their Intelligence/level is high enough. After all to dish out 60 extra damage on a level 3 spell, you'd need a +20 Intelligence modifier, without Extra Edge. At level 20, with Extra Edge, you'd still need a +14 Int modifier to hit that 60 damage cap, which is rather unlikely.

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Re: A Thread About Warmages and Numbers.
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2022, 01:36:20 PM »
Quote
No. Because the max of 10d6 damage is 60, not 120. If dealing with a 20d6 damage spell, then the max is 120, but the average damage of 20d6 for a Wizard is 70.  Warmage cannot deal more damage than the actual maximum of the spell, so a Wizard who casts a spell with a maximum of 60 damage can still only do a maximum of 60 damage when a warmage casts it. It's just that the warmage has a higher MINIMUM damage.

That's incorrect; the bonus from Warmage edge cannot exceed the maximum damage the spell could do. So if a spell has a maximum damage output of 60 (eg. 10d6), then warmage edge can go up to 60 ontop of the 10d6. In this case, the spell could dish up to 10d6 + 60. Basically it always doubles the maximum damage output of a spell, hence why it's usually worth it to empower said spell. If the spell can do 10d6*1.5 (max 90), then the bonus from edge can hit 90.

Warmages thus have the potential to double (and even more since the bonus damage from edge isn't randomized) damage dealt by other casters casting the same spells, presuming of course their Intelligence/level is high enough. After all to dish out 60 extra damage on a level 3 spell, you'd need a +20 Intelligence modifier, without Extra Edge. At level 20, with Extra Edge, you'd still need a +14 Int modifier to hit that 60 damage cap, which is rather unlikely.

I stand corrected. I thought it worked the other way. I definitely retract the previous statement, I was working off of what I perceived to be the maximum damage I was dealing on my warmage when out adventuring.