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Author Topic: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium  (Read 2776 times)

Dardonas

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Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« on: January 19, 2022, 01:24:47 AM »
So, I know this will come across as controversial, but I do not believe the Red Vardo Traders as a faction fits well in Port-a-Lucine, as someone who has played in the Port RVT on one of their PCs.  It strikes me as odd that there is, essentially, a Barovian thieves guild that tries to operate in Port-a-Lucine.  Among PCs and NPCs, the Red Vardo Traders branch has a known reputation for being thugs, thieves and killers and there are even IC books written and easily obtainable from the loot tables.

In Vallaki and Barovia, the Red Vardo Traders can act without impunity because there is no need for them to be discrete or "unthuggish" with exception to guidelines in the Tigan's Code.  If a PC talks trash to the Red Vardo (calling them thieves, murderers, ect.) in Barovia, they can give them the Don Corleone special.  In Port, however, they struggle to exist as every PC and NPC even knows what the Red Vardo Traders have a reputation for, but they struggle to do anything about because both the Tigan's Code and the Port branch itself focuses on discretion and subtly far more than the Vallaki branch. In often cases, it feels like your hands are tied in Port-a-Lucine as an RVT and trying to do anything thuggish likely gets you kicked out of the branch (or worse).

Let's also address the crux of the issue, being the RVT in Port-a-Lucine has an unsalvageable reputation in Port.  For as long as I've known the group in Port-a-Lucine, they have had an uphill battle between DM NPCs, PCs, and otherwise of trying to market themselves as anything but what they have become known for (assassinations, thievery, and mafioso plays).  Maybe it's intended by design, but it certainly makes it a stale faction to be in after a while because you know that trying to attain legitimacy in Dementlieu as an RVT just won't happen.  The RP becomes exclusionary by nature as well.  Perhaps it depends on the player base currently involved as well as DM attention, but when I played my RVT PC he was worse off when he joined the RVT than when he didn't.  It was to the point where people RP'd less with my PC after he put on the black and red than before he did, which is a shame as DM supported factions should enhance RP rather than detract from it.

I think a much better fit for the Dementlieu setting would be focusing on the Bellegarde Trading Consortium as a faction (I'll admit I have a horse in this race too, but even before I had a PC involved with the Bellegarde I thought this).  It is a homebrew designed by Arawn, but it realistically fits the setting much more than a backwater thieves' guild does.  Why does the RVT have a base in Port-a-Lucine at all?  It makes little sense to me that a Barovian organization would have an office across the known world. The Bellegarde Trading Consortium is a Dementliuse based organization that operates within the setting of Port-a-Lucine much more seamlessly than a Barovian mafia—and while granted there is a Bellegarde office in Krofburg, a Dementlieuse organization is much richer and makes more sense when it exploits poor workers in Krofburg.  Let alone the fact that there has been conflict between the RVT branches in the past, lest we forget the 2k bag turf wars taking place in Vallaki (it was a real thing).

Lastly, there is the issue of logs being shared between the two branches.  To my understanding, there are no other factions in game that share boards and logbooks with one another.  Without getting much into recent events, the Port branch and the Vallaki branch share forum access despite being worlds apart and it has even played a role in conflict and recent rule changes.  Even during DM plots where DMs have said that PCs don't see the other branch's logs, that relies on player integrity rather than shutting down access.  Alternatively to opening the Bellegarde up as an official faction, what we could do is just create a separate forum for each the Red Vardo Trader branches.

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2022, 01:36:28 AM »
I always thought the RVT being in port was kind of a silly idea.
Turning them into a non-lore (IE not from a book) faction allows for a lot of creative control in the hands of both players and overseeing DM's.

Only issues I would see with this is the existing roleplay of the RVT in port (could do an event or summat to explain why they left) and the fact that the Bellegarde have been kinda sorta dead for awhile and their creator DM isn't around anymore.

Separating the RVT forums is probably easier, though.

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Glass Cannon

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2022, 01:53:25 AM »
Part of the reason for the Port RVT's activities and presence is to

Spoiler: show
highlight the RVT's conflict with the Boritsi, who already have a secure foothold with their man Palascu on the Council of Brilliance.


But I agree, the current situation for the RVT in Port is stale.
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Dardonas

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2022, 02:01:15 AM »
Another point I'd like to bring up, and while people may say it's "IC," is that the main accomplishment of having shared logbooks between Port and Vallaki RVT these days seems to be poor and unfun conflict.  Conflict where important logs are just leaked, as well as doxxing any active ghosts in the RVT, by members of the opposing branch who are quitting or about to get kicked out.

Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2022, 02:03:27 AM »
Port-RVT has added a lot to the setting, I think Glasscanons own contribution and previous captains highlight the opportunity they offer. However, it also puts a spotlight on its suspension of disbelief as they exist almost as a contradiction within the Port-a-Lucine setting. Nobles openly discredit them and even go out of their way to threaten their members, and for an organization that is ostensibly the premier "Barvoain-Thieves Guild" they feel like a toothless tiger and the NPCs seldom do anything to dispel that notion.

People can think badly of them, they should. They can even bad mouth them behind closed doors, but openly? It seems like a bad joke that every noble fresh off the character creation room can bad-mouth them with near impunity. For a blood-thirsty gang they certainly lack the blood, and I don't think it's a player problem rather than a top-down one. There should be consequences for bad-mouthing them, shipments from your noble house going missing, monetary pressure. It doesn't need to be violence but for one of the largest mercantile consortiums, the only power they seem to have is the ability to retract magic bags.

To sum it up, I feel they need a change in their image to better reflect their archetype as gang lords or be pushed out of the domain by better fitting entities.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 03:42:25 AM by Hallvor Hadiya »
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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2022, 02:04:08 AM »
As someone who played an extremely successful Port-a-Lucine RVT Captain for 5 years, I'd hate to see them gone.  It's the most fun I've had on this server in regards to Faction Play.  I'll certainly acknowledge it's much different then the RVT in Vallaki, but that's simply the case in Port for a lot of things.  Much like other Port factions it requires other players - in Factions or otherwise - to be pushing their own initiatives.  Without it, you're sadly left in a state where you're not much more than a merchant.



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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2022, 02:17:14 AM »
I guess thinking about it, I think the main problem with bringing in the Bellegarde Trading Consortium in Port is, where's the conflict? The Bellegarde are already accepted in Dementlieu, and moreover, they're not really criminal, to my understanding (they have their Boritsi "friends" for that).

What would you do as a Bellegarde agent in Port? Trade? You hardly need a supported faction for that. Conspire? Against whom, the RVT who just got displaced? Play at being criminals? There's better factions for that.

The RVT's tension existing in Port is also the source of their defining conflict, and that conflict gives the struggle meaning, even if it felt Sisphyean at times. Though I agree that the IC implementation has sometimes been... frustrating. (The mention of doxxed Ghosts is giving me flashbacks, honestly.)
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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2022, 02:53:09 AM »
Port RVT would be fine, if they weren't utterly toothless. As what they're supposed to be a sneaky double faced mafia, they will never be accepted as a legitimate trade organization, they are viewed overtly as a Barovian Thieves Guild, unfortunately they're not allowed to act like it which makes them simply, a laughable spineless thieves guild.


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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2022, 03:01:16 AM »
NO FUTURE LEFT FOR YOU? JOIN THE RED VARDO TRADERS in PORT-A-LUCINE!

Do you consider yourself to be an abject failure? Do you wish to be made the butt of jokes wherever you go? Consider, then, signing on with the Red Vardo Traders in Port-a-Lucine.

A Barovian thieves’ guild based out of Krezk, why we continue to exist and do business here is a mystery, even to ourselves! Rightly feared in our homeland, here in Dementlieu, we relegate ourselves to selling fine silk clothing and magical bags in order to conceal our own series of hare-brained schemes which typically end only in embarrassment.

If being outsmarted and outplayed by a gnome of all things seems to intrigue you, by all means, don’t wait and join the Red Vardo Traders TODAY! Don’t worry, our own incompetence is only matched by the Gendarmerie’s, so all our crooked acts will be overlooked.

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2022, 04:21:55 AM »
The current state of the Port and Vallaki branch of the Red Vardo differ greatly indeed, but I don't quite see the reason to have the Port branch removed. They work in different manners, and that is very obvious when agents from the two branches meet to discuss matters. The report log sharing is something that can only happen if an agent of the opposing branch carries their reports over - by ruling, the logs are still separated and cannot be read telepathically. Much information is being shared between the two branches via letters in form of forum PMs. And the whole thing about the Vardo having no teeth? Yeah well, we have to abide by the PvP-rules as well. If we could beat up everyone who's badmouthing our faction, oh boi, my character would go on a little spree. But nope, I'd get reported and eventually banned for doing that, even though the IC reason would be valid.

If anything, I'd wish for the Bellegarde to be more transparent. I am quite new to this server and when I was first told about the Bellegarde being an opposing faction, I started searching - and found nothing. They have no entry in either the supported factions nor the player factions. They are not mentioned on the wiki. Besides a handful of NPCs which lack descriptions and are not interactable, you find nothing about them ingame. The only things I learned about them are from other players who has been on this server for a long time, and what I learned from them made me wonder why the Bellegarde is not openly hated. Maybe because very few players are aware of what they do? While everyone can look at the Vardo's faction description and metagame on a fresh level 2 character that 'these guys are evil, look out, dont trust them yadda yadda', it seems like the Bellegarde can frolick around without repercussions simply because barely anyone knows what they are up to. Metagaming is an undeniable big problem for players of evil characters or factions. Not being known as an evil faction is a massive advantage.

Give the Bellegarde some transparency, make it an actual faction and maybe even a thing about the Bellegarde having their main base in Port and a side-office in Krofburg, while it's vice-versa for the Red Vardo Traders. Also, give the Port Vardo some love, come on. We in Vallaki are lucky to have Brim who looks after us and does stuff with us, but the Port branch doesn't even get updates on their membership board and recruitment is super slow there. How is the branch supposed to thrive when it gets neglected like that?
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Vissy

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2022, 04:32:43 AM »
If anything, the Vardo are toothless because there have been times in the past when they weren't - and they quite literally got in wars that ended up culling their numbers heavily. The Vardo aren't invincible either, and it'd be rather unrealistic for them to have several level 20-equivalent (let alone epic-level equivalent) characters kicking around NPC-side. And that isn't just a mechanical argument: the RVT aren't an organization of fighters or necessarily even master assassins. They're thugs and traders, a mafia.

And the other part of the RVT in Port (and anywhere else) I do agree with. Nobody -should- trust a Vardo, and those characters who do usually don't know what they are about. It's completely IC for them to be shunned and excluded wherever they go, because nobody wants to have an obvious mole among them.
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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2022, 05:18:40 AM »
If anything, the Vardo are toothless because there have been times in the past when they weren't - and they quite literally got in wars that ended up culling their numbers heavily. The Vardo aren't invincible either, and it'd be rather unrealistic for them to have several level 20-equivalent (let alone epic-level equivalent) characters kicking around NPC-side. And that isn't just a mechanical argument: the RVT aren't an organization of fighters or necessarily even master assassins. They're thugs and traders, a mafia.

And the other part of the RVT in Port (and anywhere else) I do agree with. Nobody -should- trust a Vardo, and those characters who do usually don't know what they are about. It's completely IC for them to be shunned and excluded wherever they go, because nobody wants to have an obvious mole among them.

No one mentioned having NPCs fight for them, they mentioned that the orders to not act like criminals in a criminal organization came from NPCs not PC leadership.

Vissy

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2022, 05:35:13 AM »
It makes perfect IC sense to me. But I agree that it's certainly stifling and weird OOCly.
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Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2022, 05:53:27 AM »
If anything, the Vardo are toothless because there have been times in the past when they weren't - and they quite literally got in wars that ended up culling their numbers heavily. The Vardo aren't invincible either, and it'd be rather unrealistic for them to have several level 20-equivalent (let alone epic-level equivalent) characters kicking around NPC-side. And that isn't just a mechanical argument: the RVT aren't an organization of fighters or necessarily even master assassins. They're thugs and traders, a mafia.

Not once has levels been mentioned, non-player characters or player characters. And any wars that culled members are long in the past, nor has anyone suggested they're invincible. The crux of the matter are they competent enough to keep their position, yes they may be challenged by rivals or internal schisms but that does not change the spots for the leopard. At its core is if they can back up their role as a criminal enterprise, whether that be monetary or violence. Players need the tools to act the thug rather than a strange book club for bag merchants.

And the other part of the RVT in Port (and anywhere else) I do agree with. Nobody -should- trust a Vardo, and those characters who do usually don't know what they are about. It's completely IC for them to be shunned and excluded wherever they go, because nobody wants to have an obvious mole among them.

Yes, to all of that. But they should have a care not to openly insult them on the terraces. And it is specifically the reason why no one should trust them, cause upsetting a gang of thieves and dealers who are connected to the larger underworld web which does include assassins and various other forms of "bad men" is bad for your health. If no one is scared of them, why respect them. Do you see why they need to back their word and take care of their image, cause if some seventh son of a noble on the terraces can bad mouth them with no repercussions then anyone can? Cause soon after it's no longer just mere words, public perception and reputation is half of their power.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 06:02:37 AM by Hallvor Hadiya »
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Vissy

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2022, 06:15:35 AM »
On the other hand, if they kill off or intimidate some seventh son of a noble house and word gets out they did it, they're just going to get consequences themselves. Or worse yet, they try but fail because said seventh son is a level 16 Cleric or something (and has a potentially large web of influence themselves both among outlanders and locals). I do see why they need to back their word, but I don't honestly see how exactly they're going to do it in Port against people that are potentially stronger than them, both in terms of influence, political power and personal power. I'm not sure if the Vardo and their influence / power are being overestimated here, is all I am saying.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 06:41:26 AM by Vissy »
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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2022, 06:26:41 AM »
Isn't it on the players within the faction to ensure that their organization is feared/respected?

If Red Vardo players are complaining about their organization in Port being "toothless" (which doesn't seem to be a case at the moment, but lets assume that it is), it's in their best interest to work on the faction's reputation and salvage it, or double down on it instead, to threaten those who insult them into submission. Or perhaps this seeming harmlessness is part of a clever ploy that we, as non-members don't realize?

Besides, what is the guarantee that switching RVT for BTC (organization, not the cryptocurrency) won't result in nothing more than a change in the color of uniforms? I had the luxury of being part of the faction briefly few years back, so I'm familiar with their backstory, but I doubt it will take Port characters a long time to realize that BTC are equally if not more untrustworthy than RVT.

The only advantage of such change would be the fact that BTC fit Port more, but as Glasscanon pointed it out, it would take away an interesting RP scenario from RVT players within Port.

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2022, 06:55:48 AM »
Seems like there are more actionable solutions to RVT Port players' issues than nuking the whole thing. But if the orders to behave have come from NPC higher ups then it is all in DM hands. Have bad things happen to people, discretely. Workers end up in accidents, businesses catch fire, relatives go on extended trips to the countryside unannounced, shipments go missing, vaults get emptied. There's just a few examples off the top of my head of what could go wrong for those antagonising an actual mafia, but all of it needs DM support to even start making it happen.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 06:58:07 AM by bloodless »

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2022, 07:30:18 AM »
I should think everyone thinking my secret mafia organisation was a toothless joke would actually be a significant advantage...

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2022, 07:40:08 AM »
Why replace when you can add? Maybe it just needs more manpower and to have some competition from the Bellegarde.
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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2022, 07:43:33 AM »
I feel like i am a sweet summer child because i never knew all these things about RVT  :|

This said, I hope I have understood the problem right, because the solution sounds a little too obvious to me.

If they really are like the Mafia... this is not like the Mafia does business. There is no "MAFIA CAR DEALERS!" nor "MAFIA REAL ESTATE INC" in the world.

Not only they use a multitude of fronts, legitimate fronts, to conduct their business, they also famously changed the way they refer to themselves. The word "mafia" is a Sicilian word in use in the late 1800s. Only Italian magistrates kept using it to label these kind of activities. They changed their collective names in Cosa Nostra, The System, the Collective, the Great Council, etc. What man in their right mind would try to keep using a name that means "criminal"?

So if RVT wants to do business in Port the first thing they should do is change their name and clean their game.


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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2022, 09:20:58 AM »
As someone who played an extremely successful Port-a-Lucine RVT Captain for 5 years, I'd hate to see them gone.  It's the most fun I've had on this server in regards to Faction Play.  I'll certainly acknowledge it's much different then the RVT in Vallaki, but that's simply the case in Port for a lot of things.  Much like other Port factions it requires other players - in Factions or otherwise - to be pushing their own initiatives.  Without it, you're sadly left in a state where you're not much more than a merchant.

Perhaps DM priorities or interpretations and themes have changed since, but I concur that when I first started playing, the Port RVT was a powerful and intimidating faction.

My perception is that canon factions sometimes come to the attention of the DMs, and they push them back in the direction of canon, whereas homebrew would presumably be freer to grow in whichever direction they organically grow. But ultimately the player base is going to give life to a faction--or not. Even a dedicated player can do only so much, so it depends on other players' interests and what else is going on around the server, consuming attention (especially from DMs).


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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2022, 10:06:41 AM »
The Bellegarde Trading Consortium was never meant to be a supported faction, just a tool for DM plot that was created long ago during the server's early days, much like the guard faction in Krezk during the war 6-7 years ago. We really do not have plans to make it a supported faction at the moment.
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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2022, 10:21:32 AM »
The Bellegarde Trading Consortium was never meant to be a supported faction, just a tool for DM plot that was created long ago during the server's early days, much like the guard faction in Krezk during the war 6-7 years ago. We really do not have plans to make it a supported faction at the moment.

That's dissapointing to hear, and I think highlights one of the server weaknesses in the awkward split of storytelling responsibilities between the DM Team and the Devolopers.

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2022, 10:23:07 AM »
Wouldn't the Boritsi be a good option for a criminal faction in Port Lucine? As competitors to the RVT they would seem a good counterpart for PCs to be able to join as well.

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Re: Replacing Port RVT with the Bellegarde Trading Consortium
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2022, 10:35:48 AM »
The Bellegarde Trading Consortium was never meant to be a supported faction, just a tool for DM plot that was created long ago during the server's early days, much like the guard faction in Krezk during the war 6-7 years ago. We really do not have plans to make it a supported faction at the moment.

That's dissapointing to hear, and I think highlights one of the server weaknesses in the awkward split of storytelling responsibilities between the DM Team and the Devolopers.

The Dev and DM actually works closely together to make things happen, like the Bellegarde for example, but nor the DM nor the Dev team never intended this faction to remain as a supported faction in the end.
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