A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes

[William Roberts]

Increase the spells known by +2 per circle. This would bring the spells known to 52, still 14-18 fewer than known by warmage or beguiler, and infinitely fewer than can be known by the wizard. This would also bring the number of spells known on par with Favored Soul, the other comparable Charisma-caster who must choose spells on level-up.
Increase the bonus feats from 14 to 19, the same as with the other mages. One of the most significant concepts in the difference between sorcerer and intelligence-casters is the notion that while the cloistered academics had to labor away at their studies, the sorcerer had time to learn other things. At the very least, then, they should not know less.
Optional, but recommended: Increase the skill points gained per level from 2 to 4. This further feeds into capacity of a sorcerer to compete with the other mages at non-mage things (as suggested by their flavor text), but also helps lessen the power disparity inherently introduced by the difference between Intelligence and Charisma as casting attributes.
Optional, but recommended: Give sorcerers antagonize, disguise, perform and speak language as class skills. The sole benefit of a charisma-character is in RP skills. If one of the suggested roles for a sorcerer is as a face-character, it seems eminently fitting that they be given the ability to leverage that narrow, soft skillset to its fullest potential.

All of those together might be a bit much, but the skill points and additional skills would not be unbalancing at all IMO. They would allow for a greater variety of builds, which should always be a side goal with any rebalancing.

[APorg]

• Increase the spells known by +2 per circle. This would bring the spells known to 52, still 14-18 fewer than known by warmage or beguiler, and infinitely fewer than can be known by the wizard. This would also bring the number of spells known on par with Favored Soul, the other comparable Charisma-caster who must choose spells on level-up.
• Increase the bonus feats from 14 to 19, the same as with the other mages. One of the most significant concepts in the difference between sorcerer and intelligence-casters is the notion that while the cloistered academics had to labor away at their studies, the sorcerer had time to learn other things. At the very least, then, they should not know less.

The first two suggestions both undermine the fundamental weakness of Sorcerors. 52 full picks is not comparable to 66 - 70 forced choices, and their more limited spell ability is also reflected by not being abled to take as many Spell Focus feats.

All classes should have a fundamental weakness; Wizards can't change their known spells without resting, and have the fewest casts; Warmages can't ward; Beguilers have to rely on others to cause mass carnage. Limited free picks is supposed to be the Sorceror weakness, and your suggestion will be highly noticeable at high levels. A Sorceror only gets three level 9 picks? Hey, a Beguiler only gets four level 9 spells known and a Warmage five, and they don't get to choose. Even Wizards aren't going to learn all level 9 spells now without DM assistance, AFAIK level 9 scrolls don't drop anymore, so they're stuck at eight choices in what's meant to be their class strength.

You want to give Sorcerors five free picks of level 9 spells?

You want to do that, and give them five extra feats, and give them +2 Skills per level, and give them extra class skills? (The latter two suggestions I think are entirely reasonable, btw.)

I appreciate the negotiating tactic of making your suggestions so extreme that any compromise is a win, but there's a difference between trying to shift the Overton Window and throwing a brick through it. Colour me cautious.

[RedMoney]

Even just one extra spell per level would be nice, or 2 up to say, sixth circle, then only 1 extra of the top spells. Minimum of one per level though, the selection is trash and makes builds 100% the exact same on every character. Everyone is just a buff monkey with acid fog and shapechange. You cannot even RP a bloodline or specialty without ruining your characters spell selection.

Sorcerers absolutely need more skills (ranks and class skill options) and feats to be viable.

Sorcerers need bloodline mechanics such as those implemented in EFU.

[APorg]

Reducing their weakness is a fraught design direction. Increasing their strengths or diversifying them in appropriate directions is much better.

[apeppertoo]

Reducing their weakness is a fraught design direction. Increasing their strengths or diversifying them in appropriate directions is much better.

The point is that their weakness is crippling enough to make them an uncompelling choice when presented with the other options.

[remnar]

words 1

words 2

I would like to preface this with - I am not an alt of viktor nor do I have a sorcerer.  I just think sorcerers are neat and kind of suck completely right now (as far as arcane full casters go).

Now, I think you're being a bit disingenuous here with the 9th level spells.  First, a sorcerer will only be able to know 5/17 of the 9th level spells at level 20, and he starts learning them at level 18.  The two specialist casters both learn all their 9th level spells at 18.  A wizard starts learning their 9th level spells at level 17, learns two a level, and can learn a full 8 (nearly half of the list) by 20.  We can discount scroll learning if it is nearly impossible to acquire 9th level scrolls - but the possibility is still there

In this case, a sorcerer is only moderately more versatile than it was before and still is not at the level of the wizard.  Now, I'm no level 20 PVP'er so maybe I don't understand the meta, but I don't really see that being too big of a problem.  And if it is, I could imagine that keeping the 3 spell limit for 9th level spells wouldn't be too bad.  Ultimately, where it kind of sucks to be a sorcerer is in all those other spell levels where there are MANY useful spells to choose from and you may have 4 to 5 of them.

Lastly, I want to argue the point about 'forced choices' for warmage and beguiler.  The classes specialize into their roles and have features to allow this.  Warmages can absolutely obliterate everything so much so that they don't really need the other spells.  Beguiler can skill monkey harder than a rogue and can ninjaloot better than anyone else due to their spells (because silence is a divine spell) and at the end of the day, they can still throw out hastes and mass hastes.  Their forced choices don't impact them as negatively as, say, the extremely limited spell selection that sorcerer gets.

_{i just learned how to insert quotes}

Reducing their weakness is a fraught design direction. Increasing their strengths or diversifying them in appropriate directions is much better.

I would like to know how you would increase the strength of sorcerers or diversify them in appropriate directions.  I don't actually know of ways to do it and I am interested in what your ideas are.
I believe the reason why Viktor's solutions are what they are is because they may be the simplest way to implement changes, rather than something that would require more thought and worse: dev time.

[-narwhal-]

I would be happy to get 1 more spells known / lvl

[APorg]

Now, I think you're being a bit disingenuous here with the 9th level spells.  [snip]

"Only moderately more versatile", two whole extra level 9 spells? With all due respect, I don't think I'm the one being disingenous there.

Bear in mind that we're comparing a wizard's defining class strength to a sorceror's defining class weakness, too. You wouldn't compare a wizard's AB to a fighter's as some sort of level metric.

Lastly, I want to argue the point about 'forced choices' for warmage and beguiler. [snip]

Honestly, I think part of the problem is expectations. Warmages and Beguilers have well-defined niches. People don't complain about their forced choices because they came into the class knowing what to expect. But they are impacted; every time a Beguiler has to find a party to do, well, any dungeon, or a Warmage has to find warders so they don't get killed in the front line, that's an impact.

People come in with these spell metas that define their expectations of what they want from a caster, and then when Sorcerors can't tick all those boxes, they're unhappy. They want a caster that can do PvP, and buff, and blast. The problem is, the Sorceror isn't a flexible caster -- that's Wizards -- or a caster with a well-defined niche. They're a kitbash Charisma spell caster and they're supposed to go tall (specialised), not wide (flexible).

Now when people say, "They're still not tall enough compared to Warmages (or in another specialised area)!", OK, I agree, that's a problem. But when people say they're not wide enough: they were never meant to be.

I would like to know how you would increase the strength of sorcerers or diversify them in appropriate directions.  I don't actually know of ways to do it and I am interested in what your ideas are.

Giving them more class skills is diversification.

Giving them forced spell choices from Bloodlines is also an interesting idea.

Giving them more casts per day so that they're clearly head of Beguilers/Warmages again is leaning into their strength.

I believe the reason why Viktor's solutions are what they are is because they may be the simplest way to implement changes, rather than something that would require more thought and worse: dev time.

That depends how you count dev time. I find these suggestions very controversial and I expect they would be debated by the Dev team behind close doors for weeks if not months.

[gotesu]

Making Warmages and Beguilers need to prepare their spells like a wizard might also help regain the sorcerer's uniqueness (and would also make sense, Beguilers and Warmages are a kind of specialized mage).

[remnar]

I did some quick math in my favorite program, excel.


As you can see, the additional spells added to POTM have not had known spells adjusted to fit.  With an additional +2 spells known* added to each spell level, near parity is achieved with a base-game sorcerer.
Otherwise, a wizard who has never seen a scroll in his life is equal or better to a POTM sorcerer when it comes to known spells.

*Spell levels 7,8,9 did not have many spells added.  It could be reasonable to only give +1 known spell to these levels rather than +2.

There are a lot of issues with sorcerer in many facets.
First, warmage has completely stolen the blasting role of sorcerer.  There's no reason to try anymore - warmages do server-crashing amounts of damage and don't have to worry about balancing their spell selection.  They aren't delayed from picking their blasting spells because they need a required buff first.  They just have them all and can kill so fast that the only buff they need is an intelligence potion for their DC's.

Second, Beguilers are rogue+ and fulfill a completely different role from sorcerer, however they can also take the Charisma role from a sorcerer with their repertoire of skills.  (Giving sorcerer the social skills would solve this issue, I believe.)  Frankly, I think Viktor just included beguiler because it is another spontaneous caster.  It belongs more in a rogue v beguiler thread.

Third, spell choice on the server is so extremely important and cannot be understated and I'm going to break it down.  This list is assuming they've reached a very high level and so have replaced redundant spells.
At first level, a sorcerer knows five spells.  They must take Shield.  It is a waste of a spell level to not take shield.  This is arguably where the sorcerer has the most freedom to choose, since many of the effects in this level get replaced by better ones later.  That's four 'free' slots
At second level, a sorcerer knows five spells.  They must take bull's strength, cat's grace, and eagle's splendor.  These spells are essential for dungeoning (and DC's).  That's two 'free' slots.
At third level, a sorcerer knows four spells.  They must take haste and greater magic weapon.  That's two 'free' slots.
At fourth level, a sorcerer knows four spells.  They must take improved invisibility and greater mage armor.  That's two 'free' slots.
At fifth level, a sorcerer knows four spells.  They must take lesser mind blank and energy buffer.  That's two 'free' slots.
At sixth level, a sorcerer knows three spells.  They must take greater stoneskin and acid fog.  That's one 'free' slots.
At seventh level, a sorcerer knows three spells.  They must take shadow shield.  That's two 'free' slots.
At eight level, a sorcerer knows three spells.  They must take premonition. That's two 'free' slots.
At ninth level, a sorcerer knows three spells. They don't have to take anything here, but they WILL take time stop it would be preposterous to think they wouldn't.  That's two 'free' slots.

The problem is that half of the sorcerer's spell slots are guaranteed locked, and the rest they have have some extremely stiff competition.  Are you going to tell me that you would take spider poison over evard's black tentacles at any point in your life?  Even if your sorcerer was an evil, conniving bastard, right, you still wouldn't take it over ice storm, evards, phantasmal killer, wall of fire, any of the orbs, or even polymorph. 
And if you did take it because you thought it would be interesting, you run into the fourth issue.

You're stuck with that spell until you relevel or get to the next level.  With wizard, you just have to fork over some cash to get a new scroll.
A sorcerer's screw ups are forever.  Well, not forever, but on a server with very long leveling times, better hope you didn't get any XP since you leveled.

Fifth, you can get away with being a tag along sorcerer if you don't have the right buffs but unless you know the people you're dungeoning with OOC there's a good chance you won't get invited to any dungeons.  After all, more than five people and the XP is reduced.

Sixth, you can't take the power PRC Pale Master.  You don't get any spells on PM levels.  It is an extremely powerful class that lets you also sneak in a rogue level that is restricted from sorcerer because there is no way of learning spells when taking a spell casting PRC without scrolls.

Seventh and finally, favored soul just came out, and it has increased spells known over a sorcerer!  All on a d8, 3/4ths bab, all saves, divine, etc and no one is saying that it is OP or wildly too wide because it has a few more spells known (of a list that is smaller than the arcane list too).  It can blast too and gets some extra features.
They aren't really comparable, really, as there are some very good spells exclusive to arcanes.

In summary,
+2 spells known for levels 1-6 and +1 known for 7-9 would go a long way to making sorcerers more capable in their role.  They can weave magic without having to even know how to read, by God let them have some fun with it.  With extra spell slots sorcerer's can be both useful AND flavorful in that player's desired micro-niche.

Warmages can blast really hard.  Beguilers can make rogues cry.  Wizards can cast everything if they can find a scroll for it and have a tool for every single situation.
Sorcerers can make their own concept much more freely and can experiment more without that feeling of unease as they click 'confirm' on their spell choice.
_{I still think they should get the other stuff in the main post, though}

[softdrink]

"Only moderately more versatile", two whole extra level 9 spells? With all due respect, I don't think I'm the one being disingenous there.

Bear in mind that we're comparing a wizard's defining class strength to a sorceror's defining class weakness, too. You wouldn't compare a wizard's AB to a fighter's as some sort of level metric.

It's true, sorcerer would only be moderately more versatile, I think you're focusing a little too hard on level 9 spells. Not many characters really ever get that far.

What the two extra spells will give the sorcerer is a lot of QOL when selecting spells themselves, not every decision will have to be grey hair inducing deliberation for a good handful of minutes. They still won't be able to change their spells on the fly, they still can't match their spell selection to suit individual needs as they go, what it will give them however is a little bit of variety and the choice to select some more fun spells one might not be inclined to take with their current limitations; it will help with build diversity and ensure not every sorcerer picks the same meta spells every time around.

People come in with these spell metas that define their expectations of what they want from a caster, and then when Sorcerors can't tick all those boxes, they're unhappy. They want a caster that can do PvP, and buff, and blast. The problem is, the Sorceror isn't a flexible caster -- that's Wizards -- or a caster with a well-defined niche. They're a kitbash Charisma spell caster and they're supposed to go tall (specialised), not wide (flexible).

This is not at all what I expected from my sorcerer at all when I created them, what I wanted was a caster that had interesting rp potential and a light mix between buff and blast.
I didn't want to be super versatile in my spell set either, a sorcerer is not a wizard like you stated, but with all the extra spells added to POTM, the restrictions on the sorcerer as is are just too stifling.

Giving them more class skills is diversification.

Giving them forced spell choices from Bloodlines is also an interesting idea.

Giving them more casts per day so that they're clearly head of Beguilers/Warmages again is leaning into their strength.

I think bloodlines should be looked into whenever possible for the dev team to do so, they'd bring something interesting to the class for sure, and I'm not against more skills for them either, but I don't thinking giving them more casts per day is the way to go with this.

Playing a sorcerer in character is already pretty stifling, I'd like to not feel suffocated by the potential spell choices I could make when finally attaining a level.
All it does is prevent character diversity and enforce a specific spell meta for sorcs, it's not a very fun process to see cool spells you COULD have used... had you not been a sorcerer. They will still never match up to the magical swiss army knife a wizard can be, and I know my sorc certainly doesn't want to. I think adding +2 spells up to sixth level and +1 from 7-9 would be a good in between for this, it lets them have more fun with their spell selection while not being anywhere near as suffocating as it currently is for them in regards to selection at higher levels.

They would also have to divvy up which spell to use at that level, and how many casts are they going to be down by using whatever they choose. While yes they do have meta magic, sorcs are still far from being able to do everything. A wizard will still buff a group better later on, a warmage will still be a better blaster and the beguiler simply has things they couldn't even dream of doing, what this will be is just a QOL upgrade to the sorcerers in general, so they don't have to slog through certain things like they do now.

[APorg]

As you can see, the additional spells added to POTM have not had known spells adjusted to fit.

This argument doesn't really find purchase. PnP has even more spells.

I agree with your point about the Sorcerors feel a little nicheless with having the Blaster superceded by Warmages, but I simply don't agree with the proposed solution of making them more flexible casters.

Third, spell choice on the server is so extremely important and cannot be understated and I'm going to break it down.  This list is assuming they've reached a very high level and so have replaced redundant spells.
At first level, a sorcerer knows five spells.  They must take Shield.  It is a waste of a spell level to not take shield.  This is arguably where the sorcerer has the most freedom to choose, since many of the effects in this level get replaced by better ones later.  That's four 'free' slots
At second level, a sorcerer knows five spells.  They must take bull's strength, cat's grace, and eagle's splendor.  These spells are essential for dungeoning (and DC's).  That's two 'free' slots.
At third level, a sorcerer knows four spells.  They must take haste and greater magic weapon.  That's two 'free' slots.
At fourth level, a sorcerer knows four spells.  They must take improved invisibility and greater mage armor.  That's two 'free' slots.
At fifth level, a sorcerer knows four spells.  They must take lesser mind blank and energy buffer.  That's two 'free' slots.
At sixth level, a sorcerer knows three spells.  They must take greater stoneskin and acid fog.  That's one 'free' slots.
At seventh level, a sorcerer knows three spells.  They must take shadow shield.  That's two 'free' slots.
At eight level, a sorcerer knows three spells.  They must take premonition. That's two 'free' slots.
At ninth level, a sorcerer knows three spells. They don't have to take anything here, but they WILL take time stop it would be preposterous to think they wouldn't.  That's two 'free' slots.

The problem is that half of the sorcerer's spell slots are guaranteed locked, and the rest they have have some extremely stiff competition.  Are you going to tell me that you would take spider poison over evard's black tentacles at any point in your life?  Even if your sorcerer was an evil, conniving bastard, right, you still wouldn't take it over ice storm, evards, phantasmal killer, wall of fire, any of the orbs, or even polymorph. 
And if you did take it because you thought it would be interesting, you run into the fourth issue.

This demonstrates what I said. You've brought your spell meta to the table and you want your Sorceror to be a self-sufficient all-rounder. This is not what a Sorceror is supposed to be. This is a problem of expectations.

Sixth, you can't take the power PRC Pale Master.  You don't get any spells on PM levels.  It is an extremely powerful class that lets you also sneak in a rogue level that is restricted from sorcerer because there is no way of learning spells when taking a spell casting PRC without scrolls.

This is a faulty implementation of Pale Master, though, not something intrinsic to balancing Sorcerors.

Seventh and finally, favored soul just came out, and it has increased spells known over a sorcerer!  All on a d8, 3/4ths bab, all saves, divine, etc and no one is saying that it is OP

You sure about that? Favoured Soul is strong enough that Favoured Soul/Blackguard gets special attention when putting in the Blackguard application.

It's true, sorcerer would only be moderately more versatile, I think you're focusing a little too hard on level 9 spells. Not many characters really ever get that far.

I'm focusing on the pain point. +2 level one spell choices isn't crazy, +2 level nine spell choices is, and IMO even +1 level nine is too generous.

I didn't want to be super versatile in my spell set either, a sorcerer is not a wizard like you stated, but with all the extra spells added to POTM, the restrictions on the sorcerer as is are just too stifling.

I'm sorry to belabour this point, but this is not something unique to PotM. Sorcerors face the same spell restrictions in PnP, where there's even more spells.

it's not a very fun process to see cool spells you COULD have used... had you not been a sorcerer.

This... this is EXACTLY the pain of being a Sorceror, though. You can't take that away and still play a Sorceror.

[apeppertoo]

I'm focusing on the pain point. +2 level one spell choices isn't crazy, +2 level nine spell choices is, and IMO even +1 level nine is too generous.

I find your focus on ninth circle spells extremely odd.

If my sorceress hits 20 she'll have shapechange, timestop, and disjunction.

Why is it beyond the pale to consider that I might get, idk, bigby's crushing hand and detonate on top of that? Or implosion? What, precisely, is throwing balance out of whack with respect to this? I don't accept the premise that it would be unreasonable. The wizard will still know more 9th circle spells than the sorcerer. Three more just from levels.

I also don't see any reason to compromise with only +1 for circles 7-9. This is a server wherein your next rest is at most 15 minutes away in realistic scenarios. The PnP strength of more spells/day is undercut by this, and rather than piling the 'strength' up higher it would be more impactful to ease the weaknesses.

[DaloLorn]

As someone who's played a wizard, a warmage, and a sorcerer (... technically three sorcerers, but two of them were clerical multiclasses, one of which almost never intentionally cast a spell, and the other only ever got one sorcerer level before being shelved)... I tend to agree with the OP.

Aela was designed to blow things up. The vast majority of her spell list is centered around:

• Making things go boom in a variety of ways (almost 100% of her early spells)
• Helping her make things go boom (Haste, Eagle's Splendor)
• Not dying while things are going boom (Color Spray, Great Thunderclap, Mass Protection from Elements; at levels 15 onwards, she also gets Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Shield, Shades, and Time Stop, and why did I not take Premonition?)
• Making sure anything can go boom (a very diverse array of damage types, plus dispelling and Disjunctions; her build file says Assay Resistance, but I don't remember having much luck using it)

She's got a clear leg up over a warmage in the "helping make things go boom" and "not dying" departments, but even with dispels, she's considerably worse at "making things go boom" and "making sure anything can go boom". Her spells deal considerably less damage, she doesn't have any more castings than a warmage, a warmage can use potions and items to compensate for her primary advantage, and there's a ton of spells a warmage can cast that Aela couldn't possibly learn. (I had fun Combusting things with Gar, but that was partly because of Warmage Edge, and it's not worth burning a known spell slot.)

She's also got an advantage over my wizard in that she can definitely cast more spells, and there's a definite flexibility advantage to be had from not having to guess how many Magic Missiles should have been Color Sprays. Okay. Yeah. Except while Aela needs to carefully manage her Fireballs, Magic Missiles, Color Sprays, Rainbow Beams, and Hastes (not to mention two different robes) just to clear out a bandit den, Myrda can prepare Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Greater Mage Armor (once she finds a scroll), Shield (... she never prepares this one, amusingly enough), Haste, and Ghostly Visage, before adding insult to injury by Polymorphing herself into a souped-up umber hulk to swat all the bandits down in a fraction of the time.

Oh, and while I don't currently RP having a familiar on Myrda, she can prepare an extra Knock, Cat's Grace, and Fox's Cunning to let her pixie deal with any locked/trapped chests she's likely to run into. (Plus Light Step to help her in the reconnaissance role. Granted, at this point, I'm definitely having to make use of metamagic and the dreaded spell slot items...) Aela's pixie, Hyla, might actually exist outside accidental summons, but Myrda's pixie would be so much better at everything Hyla does.

[APorg]

(nevermind)

[Space Cowboy]

I think adding some Sorcerous Heritage/Bloodline feats could go someway towards increasing some power as well as some flavour for the class. Draconic, Fiend, Fey, etc. Similar to what Pathfinder does.

[Anarcoplayba]

1) I agree with every single word of what OP said. I never played a sorcerer in this server (even before warmage and beguiler) because there is no real reason to do that. And that seems to bem the point people is missing: there is no reason to pick a sorc. The original post broke dow every aspect and there is no need to repeat.

2) The suggestions made, even if everything at once, would not break the class or make it overpowered. It would only make sorcs less awful.

3) As personal preference, I'd also add appraise as sorc class skill.

That's it. Great post.

[MAB77]

I'd like to thank ViktorYouFoul for the in-depht analysis. This is solid work and shows your passion for the game. Rest assured that the Dev team has taken note of it and is reviewing it. This may take some times. We will comment further only once we're ready to do so.

[DaloLorn]

1) I agree with every single word of what OP said. I never played a sorcerer in this server (even before warmage and beguiler) because there is no real reason to do that. And that seems to bem the point people is missing: there is no reason to pick a sorc. The original post broke dow every aspect and there is no need to repeat.

I mean, there are a few niche builds (including all three of my sorcerers) that probably wouldn't work so well , but it's unclear whether those builds are themselves any good. Aela does have a broader counterspelling ability than any warmage, and the ability to dispel enemy wards instead of circumventing them. Meanwhile, Anna and Barin both tried to leverage a sorcerer's high CHA score into powering assorted Turn Undead feats from a cleric dip, at the cost of never ever obtaining level 8/9 spells. (Anna did it for healing and a potential Hallowed Witch path that never panned out, while Barin was built as a sort of mostly-arcane pseudo-paladin. Both would probably be served far better with a FS base instead of a sorcerer base, as far as mechanical effectiveness goes.)

2) The suggestions made, even if everything at once, would not break the class or make it overpowered. It would only make sorcs less awful.

No argument there.

3) As personal preference, I'd also add appraise as sorc class skill.

Why's that?

[SardineTheAncestor]

I skimmed what I could, you obviously did the math

This might sound like a very "oh this thread again" reply but I still feel pretty secure letting these suggestions float around:

1) Top-end power of all classes is okay as far as parties go. Even in Sithicus, where only the narrowest of high level builds succeed, the Sorcerer can join a party and provide. From level 2 to 20, ideally there will be other casters there who can provide the spells this class has not chosen due to its unfortunately narrow spell selection.

2) Buff bot is an important job. Damage spells are important too in several more difficult dungeons. Talking about Sithicus again, you want to be permahasted here, you're going to want a Sorc just as much as a second wizard, and dungeons in this domain are not the only ones where having three casters is ideal. The sorc's freedom to cast a few more spells can make the difference in softening up extremely tough and evasive enemies that can do a lot of damage.

3) Just to be clear - I want a sorc in my party every time. This is a great support class even if it isn't the most independent caster. I don't subscribe to the belief that any one caster is the one that can get me through the hardest dungeons. I want a varied lineup whether I am playing a caster or playing one of the melees, that way all weaknesses are shored up and all strengths are maxed out, meaning better tactics are available to us and much less risk is involved. If my party has only one caster and we are succeeding, that caster class probably isn't overpowered, the dungeon we're in is probably too easy for our party.

4) Bloodlines/heritage feats are an idea I like because they could make the early game more interesting by expanding the sorcerer outward instead of just upward. This is where the class is weakest, the fact it can't really be used for PRCs except a very specific type of mid-tier dragon disciple build that would probably just be better off with bard levels anyway. You basically have to commit to pure classing.

I'm more likely to play sorc than other casters just because of the spontaneous casting, but I can recognise this class is missing something to make it really complete. It's not buffs, but features that help a character stand out a bit more than "very good sorcerer, the best sorcerer" imo. Same way I feel about monk, love having them around, not in need of any more "I win" buttons, but a few "I'm cool" buttons would be great.

[Vissy]

+1 to the OP, just adding my agreement there. I've played a Sorcerer only to Level 4 myself, so I have little to contribute, but: I know that choosing what spells to take for Sorcerers is a huge inducer of gray hairs and they could definitely use more known spells.

[bloodless]

I haven't played a sorc though I have considered one. I knew they were a lot weaker than the other arcane casters but seeing them laid out side by side is just shy of staggering. The OP is entirely justified in his assertion that there is no good reason to make a sorc presently and I have found none of the arguments against his proposed adjustments in the thread so far to be compelling. Impressive work on the analysis.

[Day Old Bread]

@Victoryoufool A very well organized and thoroughly researched argument for strengthening Sorcerers.

I am never one who will argue for class balance.  The game isn't designed around PvP or even PvE balance. It's designed around the concept of collective efforts where one party member shores up the weaknesses of the others.  We all know this.  What I think you've done here though, is highlight many of the weaknesses of the sorcerer that other classes shore up better.

The biggest issue I see is that the strength that is supposed to be apparent in a sorcerer isn't showing through. I'm not certain the reasoning for this, perhaps limitations of the engine.

What I would say though, rather than seeking to increase power and functionality of a specific class in hopes of balancing it out, we should be looking for a way to make it unique.  A number of years ago there was all sorts of hubbub in the world of warcraft community in regards to "class fantasy" and with sorcerer, right now, it seems like that fantasy isn't being realized.  What should be the aim then, in my opinion, is not to give them more power, but to give them the things that make them feel unique.

The reason I argue for not pushing up their perceived level of power is simply due to many of the things you've already outlined. Balance is a very tricky thing and if you push the class too far, then suddenly all the other caster classes seem broken. At which point, you're left trying to shore up everything else, or nerf a class back to a reasonable level.

TLDR
I think you've touched on a lot of really strong points with regards to the sorcerer as a class. I think their mechanical power is lacking, but that it does not necessarily need to be changed significantly. I think there need to be some improvements to the class to make it feel more unique and varied from what another wizard/beguiler/warmage can do.  I don't know the way to do that though.  Full disclosure, I skimmed much of your post, so its quite probably I've missed a thing or two along the way. Please don't hate me for being a lazy reader.

[Anarcoplayba]

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3) As personal preference, I'd also add appraise as sorc class skill.

Why's that?

To address the "ambassador" trope. The fact is that there is almost no area in the game in which the ambassadir can shibe. Haggling prices is one useful that would give a sorcerer a good edge.

Yes, I know, appraise is tied to int, but bards and rogues have it too.

[McNastea]

Sorcerer is a good class and doesn't need any buffs. Stop pointing to other classes as a justification to buff another. In fact stop buffing anything at all, nobody needs any buffs. Work backwards and nerf classes instead.