Author Topic: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes  (Read 4558 times)

ViktorYouFool

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A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« on: January 18, 2022, 08:46:23 PM »

A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
OR
A Dissertation on Sorcerous Shafting



"Class X is underpowered" is a fairly common discussion and for good reason. PotM is an absurd time-sink. Actually getting anywhere on a character requires an investment more often counted in months and years than days or weeks. It represents a massive amount of time and energy spent operating within a certain set of mechanical boundaries and the class you choose can make a massive difference in your experience of the server and your enjoyment of the character in which you are investing.

All of this makes it unsurprising that the loudest advocates for improving a class are those who have spent the most time in it. They know what their class's strengths are, and where they fall short. They are in the best position to know what that class means for their quality of life on the server, and how it affects their ability to engage with the content. They know what it means for the roles they can play, and the role-play the avenues of role-play open to them. They know the way it colors how PCs and even NPCs treat your character, what those players and their PCs want from you, what they expect from you, and the friction that comes when you do not meet those expectations. They are in the best place to know where their pain points are, and where the class can be frustrating or even discouraging. This can be even further compounded if the strengths of your class, the thing that makes them special, the role you wanted them to play, are better done by some other class doing some other thing. When these frustrations show up, the sheer amount of time and energy invested can make it difficult to maintain perspective, or even tempt us to take things personally.

This creates a double-edged sword. On the one hand, such advocates tend to have the most hands-on experience with the thing and have the most credible lived-experience there with. On the other hand, having emotional skin in the game can make the same advocate sound like a biased source, whether out of a suspicion they are just advocating for their own benefit, or because their complaints may sound disproportionate to the matters about which they are complaining. The reverse of this can sometimes apply as well, with those those who do not regularly play the class being familiar with its theoretical strengths but having never been forced to deal with its weaknesses, or even just familiar with one example of someone who managed to break something ("I saw this one guy do thing and he basically solos perf every hour.") and thus sincerely believing the discussion is without merit and dismissing it out of hand.

Sorcerer has been the target for these sorts of discussions for as long as NWN has existed -- and longer, in point of fact. Even in the pen & paper version upon which NWN is based, the overlap between wizard and sorcerer has invited debate about whether what sorcerers gain in comparison is worth what they give up. This seems to only be exacerbated by the conditions inherent to a persistent world environment like PotM. Nearly everyone I've known who has played a sorcerer to high level initially chose the class due to the potential promise of the concept, yet by the mid to late game found themselves regretfully debating if they wouldn't have been better off with a wizard instead.

As my paladin has begun to enter the twilight of his tenure, I find myself considering a new character. Like others, I'm drawn towards the concept of a sorcerer, yet with so many dissatisfied with the thing, I'm forced to ask: does their complaint have merit? How does a sorcerer *actually* compare to the other mage classes? Would I be better off just making a wizard?

The following has been my attempt to analyze and understand this subject. Because it's so easy to claim bias from the people who actually play the class and advocate for its improvement, I have gone out of my way to be as objective as possible and to break the subject down in as many ways as I can think of to get a complete picture of what's going on.

This has been a labor of many, many hours across a several weeks now. I ask only that those who comment try to make their way through the whole thing and attempt to be respectful of the points posed and the questions asked. Thank you in advance, for your time and consideration.




Abstract:

The wizard vs. sorcerer argument is at least as old as Neverwinter Nights as a platform. There have always been those who felt that sorcerer was an underpowered class by comparison, but it was easy to argue that what wizards gained in total ability, the sorcerer class had several unique features and the capacity to fulfill specific niches that allowed it to hold its own. With the inclusion of the Beguiler and Warmage classes, this argument becomes much harder to make. The following will break down each caster class along every metric by which they can be objectively measured in order to paint a complete picture of their relative abilities. It is my hope that with all the pieces laid out, a clear case will be made for where sorcerer falls short and is in need of some tweaking to compete within its niche. At the end of this post, I will make some specific suggestions on how best to do this. These suggestions have the specific goal of preserving the strengths, flavor, and intent of the class without allowing it to overshadow any of the other caster classes in their own niches.



What Is Balance, Anyway?

Quote
"The Beginning of Wisdom is the definition of terms."
- Socrates

In a game as complex as NWN, balance discussions can quickly get bogged down or sidetracked. In order for this to be productive, we need to establish exactly what balance means in this context.

For our purposes, balance revolves around a single simple question: Why would I choose X option over Y? Balance is achieved when for any given two options, there are viable and compelling reasons to choose either. If...
  • X is so compelling that you would never choose Y
  • Y is so compelling that there is no case to be made for X
  • Or either X or Y are so lackluster that there's no reason to choose one regardless of the other
Then something is out of whack and something should be done to bring things back into balance. Both options need to be viable enough often enough within a specific context or style of play to feel valid.

With that in mind, a meaningful discussion of balance also requires that X and Y be broadly comparable within the same context or broad use case. We can thus immediately set aside arguments about, say, whether a cleric is a better option than wizard, or a rogue is a better option than a warmage. In either case, X and Y occupy such different niches, play-styles, and role-play experiences that they aren't directly comparable -- at least not without going to such an absurdly comprehensive length that it would dwarf even this massive report. With this definition of balance, we can also safely set aside any argument about whether sorcerer is playable in its current state. This is first because the question is misleading -- anything is playable with a dedicated group, no matter how poor or limiting the class may be mechanically -- and then second because the question was never sorcerer in a vacuum. The only meaningful way to have a discussion is to compare sorcerer to the other classes in the broad arcane caster niche which it occupies: wizard, warmage, and beguiler.

To put a finer point on it, we should be asking the following questions: Why should you play sorcerer over some other mage class? What features does it bring to the table that it competes with the others and carves out its own niche and play-style? And if the answers to those are lukewarm or nonexistent, where do adjustments need to be made to make the class a compelling option?

Finally, it's worth asking whether the class even lives up to its own description. When you roll up a sorcerer on PotM, are you getting what it says on the tin? How does the experience match up to the expectations set at character creation?
 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 09:00:28 PM by ViktorYouFool »



ViktorYouFool

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2022, 08:46:53 PM »
The Prince Who Was Promised
Before we can really measure the classes against each other, we need to see what each class claims to be in the first place. For this we are going to go from their Wiki entries:

Beguiler
Quote
Some hold truth to be the greatest virtue, but it can do more damage than fiction. Everyone lives in a constant state of deception. White lies, false smiles, and secret thoughts keep society running smoothly. Honesty is a virtue only up to a certain point. Beguilers understand these ideas better than anyone, and they use deception, misunderstanding, and secrets as skillfully as a soldier employs weapons of war. The beguiler's spells and skills make him well suited to espionage and dungeon delving. In addition to finding and disarming traps, he can use his spells to trick and outmaneuver foes.

Warmage
Quote
Some spellcasters care for only one thing: war. They dream of steel and mighty blasts of devastating magic, the march of troops, and the unleashed destruction found on battlefields everywhere. Graduates of special arcane war colleges, those known as warmages are drilled only and utterly in the casting of spells most useful for laying down destruction, confusing an enemy, or screening an allied action. The utilitarian spells used by wizards and sorcerers have little importance to a warmage's way of thinking. What are support casters for, after all? A warmage cares only for success on the battlefield, or, in some cases, in the series of smaller campaigns favored by adventuring companies.

Wizard
Quote
Wizards are arcane spellcasters who depend on intensive study to create their magic. To wizards, magic is not a talent but a difficult, rewarding art. When they are prepared for battle, wizards can use their spells to devastating effect. When caught by surprise, they are vulnerable. The wizard's strength is her spells; everything else is secondary. She learns new spells as she experiments and grows in experience, and she can also learn them from other wizards. In addition, over time a wizard learns to manipulate her spells so they go farther, work better, or are improved in some other way. A wizard can call a familiar: a small, magical, creature that serves her.

Sorcerer
Quote
Sorcerers are arcane spellcasters who manipulate magic energy with imagination and talent rather than studious discipline. They have no books, no mentors, no theories - just raw power that they direct at will. Sorcerers know fewer spells than wizards do and acquire them more slowly, but they can cast individual spells more often and have no need to prepare their incantations ahead of time. Also unlike wizards, sorcerers cannot specialize in a school of magic. Since sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that wizards go through, they have more time to learn fighting skills and are proficient with simple weapons.

Since we are here with a focus on Sorcerer, let's take their player's handbook entry as a bit of additional background for good measure. Text is here taken from the 3.5 edition, as I did not have a copy of the original 3.0 PHB available.

Quote from: 3.5e PHB
Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories—just raw power that they direct at will.

Some sorcerers claim that the blood of dragons courses through their veins. That claim may even be true in some cases—it is common knowledge that certain powerful dragons can take humanoid form and even have humanoid lovers, and it's difficult to prove that a given sorcerer does not have a dragon ancestor. It's true that sorcerers often have strikingly good looks, usually with a touch of the exotic that hints at an unusual heritage. Others hold that the claim is either an unsubstantial boas on the part of certain sorcerers or envious gossip not eh part of those who lack the sorcerer's gift.

Adventurers: The typical sorcerer adventures in order to improve his abilities. Only by testing his limits can he expand them. A sorcerer's power is inborn—part of his soul. Developing this power is a quest in itself for many sorcerers, regardless of how they wish to use their power.

Some sorcerers are driven by the need to prove themselves. Marked as different by their power, they seek to win a place in society and prove themselves to others. Evil sorcerers, however, also feel themselves set apart from others—apart and above. They adventure to gain power over those they look down upon.

Characteristics: Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through careful training and study. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical. Sorcerers know fewer spells than wizards due and acquire powerful spells more slowly than wizards, but they can cast spells more often and have no need to select and prepare their spells ahead of time. Sorcerers do not specialize in certain schools of magic the way wizards sometimes do.

Since sorcerers gain their their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that wizards go through, they don't have the background of arcane knowledge that most wizards have. However, they do have time to learn fighting skills and they are proficient with simple weapons.

Alignment: For a sorcerer, magic is an intuitive art, not a science. Sorcery favors the free, chaotic, creative spirit over the disciplined mind, so sorcerers tend slightly towards chaos over law.

Religion: Some sorcerers favor Boccob (god of magic), while others revere Wee Jas (goddess of death and magic). However, many follow some other diety, or none at all. (Wizards typically learn to follow Bocco or Wee Jas from their mentors, but most sorcerers are self-taught, with no master to induct them into a religion).

Background: Sorcerers develop rudimentary powers at puberty. Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled, and sometimes dangerous. A household with a budding sorcerer in it may be sometimes troubled by strange sounds or lights, which can create the impression that the place is haunted. Eventually, the young sorcerer understands the power that he has been wilding unintentionally. From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his powers.

Sometimes a sorcerer is fortunate enough to come under the care of an older, more experienced sorcery, someone who can help him understand and use his new powers. More often, however, sorcerers are on their own, feared by erstwhile friends and misunderstood by family.

Sorcerers have no sense of identity as a group. Unlike wizards, they gain little by sharing their knowledge and have no strong incentive to work together.

Races: Most sorcerers are humans or half-elves, but the innate talent for sorcery is unpredictable, and it can show up in any of the common races.

Arcane spell casters from savage lands or among the brutal humanoids are more likely to be sorcerers than wizards. Kobolds are especially likely to take up this path, and they are fierce, if inarticulate, proponents of the "blood of the dragons" theory.

Other Classes: Sorcerers find that they have the most in common with members of other self-taught classes, such as druids and rogues. They sometimes find themselves at odds with members of the more disciplined classes, such as paladins and monks. Since they cast the same spells as wizards, bu do so in a different way, they sometimes find themselves in competition with wizards.

Role: A sorcerer tends to define his role based on his spell selection. A sorcerer who is focused on damage-dealing spells becomes a center of his party's offensive power. Another may rely on more subtle magics, such as charms and illusions, and thus take on a quieter role. A party with a sorcerer should strongly consider including a second spell caster, such as a bard, cleric, druid, or even wizard, to make up for the sorcerer's lack of versatility. Since a sorcerer often has a presence that gives him a way with people, he may serve as the "face" for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others. The sorcerer's spells often help him sway others or gain information, so he makes an excellent spy or diplomat for an adventuring party.

Taking the texts at face value, then, we should expect the experience of playing a sorcerer to be something like the following:
  • An implication of raw, innate, dynamic power as opposed to carefully practiced and precisely studied magical ability.
  • They have more limited spells, and learn them more slowly, but in exchange they get to use them more often.
  • Because they don't spend their lives in a time-intensive and laborious study of magic, they have the ability to learn other things -- something specifically mentioned applying to "fighting skills," and demonstrated via the simple weapon proficiency.

Further, sorcerer is pitched as a very individualistic, build-your-own-role kind of class, based on the spells you take. Several suggestions are given as to example roles:
  • Damage dealer and cannon, focused on offensive firepower.
  • Subtle magic, as enchantment, charms, and illusions
  • Using spells for information gathering as a spy
  • Taking advantage of the high charisma and being the face and diplomat through negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others

On paper, then, we know what the sorcerer class should do and where it should shine. This gives us our parameters for discussion going forward: How well does sorcerer live up to its promise, and how do those promised strengths compare to other classes competing in the same niche?



ViktorYouFool

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2022, 08:47:52 PM »
Mechanical Elements of Each Class, Compared

The following tables show a complete breakdown of each metric by which the four classes in question can be directly and objectively measured. Certain portions of the table will be then discussed in further detail in their own sections, where they benefit from commentary. All numbers involved are either taken directly from the relevant wiki (with PotM's wiki taking precedence over any conflict with the NWN wiki), or are extrapolated from that information with the assumption the character benefits from no relevant racial bonuses (neither attribute modifiers, nor human benefits.)

Spoiler: show
Quote
Metric
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
Hit Dice
d6
d4
d6
d4
Skill Points (Base)
6+Int Mod
2+Int Mod
2+Int Mod
2+Int Mod
Skills (Practical)
234
46(92)
142
142
Available Skills, Total
18
5
7
4
Available Skills, Listed
Appraise
Concentration
Disable Trap
Disguise
Hide
Influence
Listen, Lore
Move Silently
Open Lock
Parry
Search
Sleight of Hand
Speak Language
Spellcraft
Spot
Tumble
Use Magic Device
Concentration
Heal
Influence
Lore
Spellcraft
Antagonize
Concentration
Discipline
Heal
Lore
Parry
Spellcraft
Concentration
Heal
Lore
Spellcraft





Proficiencies
Armor Proficiency (light)
Weapon Proficiency (Beguiler)
Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Armor Proficiency (Light)
Shield Proficiency
Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Weapon Proficiency (Wizard)
Class Features
Armored Mage
Cloaked Casting
Silent Spell
Cloaked Casting II
Still Spell
Cloaked Casting III
Cloaked Casting IV
Summon Familiar
Armored Mage
Warmage Edge
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Improved Combat Casting
Summon Familiar
Feats Provided by Class
10
2
7
2
Feats Gained by Advancement
19
14
19
19
Total Feat Economy
29
16
26
21





Casting Attribute
Int
Cha
Int
Int
Casting Method
Spontaneous
Spontaneous
Spontaneous
Prepared
Spells Learned From Levels: Level 1
9
5
7
6
Level 2
14
5
7
4
Level 3
12
4
10
4
Level 4
8
4
7
4
Level 5
6
4
8
4
Level 6
5
3
7
4
Level 7
6
3
8
4
Level 8
5
3
6
4
Level 9
4
3
5
8
Total
69
34
65
42





Spell Slots Per Day: Level 1
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 2
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 3
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 4
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 5
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 6
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 7
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 8
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 9
5
6
5
4(5)


Ability Scores and the Secondary Effects Thereof

One of the most fundamental difference between sorcerers and the other caster classes is the reliance on Charisma over Intelligence. This plays an important part in the class concept and role-play perception, but has a significant effect on the overall capabilities of the classes relative to each other.

Quote
Mechanics Directly Influenced By
Intelligence
Charisma
Skill Points
Languages Known
"ability to speak properly"
OCR Mitigation
"A Compelling Presence"

Even at the most superficial level, the difference in benefit is obvious. Skill points are one of the primary building blocks that determine what our characters can be good at. Language slots are less dramatically beneficial, but have a significant hard impact on RP opportunities. By contrast, the theoretical benefits of both OCR and Charisma (by way of Examine) are largely soft rules, relying on someone deciding they want to care rather than plugging into hard mechanical systems. The only firm mechanical benefit of OCR is a binary pass-fail determining your hostile status with NPCs. Provided you are below a certain threshold, your actual OCR is irrelevant and even imperceptible to other players. Beyond that point, the only benefit to improved OCR is gaming the fees at the Vallaki Bank. Meanwhile, in actual practice even the soft benefit of Charisma on RP is less beneficial than simply having additional language slots and points to spend on social skills. Which brings us to...

Quote
Skills Governed By
Intelligence
Charisma
Appraise
Disable Trap
Lore
Search
Speak Language
Spellcraft
Animal Empathy
Antagonize
Disguise
Influence
Perform
Use Magic Device


While both Intelligence and Charisma govern the same number of skills, there is a fairly significant difference in the mechanical weight and utility thereof. This has the unfortunate effect of meaning that in addition to Intelligence granting more skill points, period, the ability grants benefits to more mechanically useful skills than the alternative.

For Intelligence every skill has a hard mechanical benefit. Appraise and Lore are both money-makers. Search and Disable Trap are necessary adventuring skills that are also hardcore money-makers for the ninja-loot crowd. Spellcraft is useful for both counter-spelling and saves against spells. The weakest link is Speak Language, but even that has a hard benefit of granting more language slots.

Compare this to Charisma and we get a very different story. Animal Empathy and UMD are extremely useful, but both hard-locked behind specific classes. For anyone else (including the casters in question) they don't exist. That leaves us with Antagonize, Disguise, Influence and Perform. Disguise is arguably the most hard mechanical benefit of the four, granting a unique role-play opportunity -- even if it is one easily outmatched by its countermeasure, spot. The remaining three are soft-benefits at best. Antagonize and Perform have hard mechanical applications for some classes (melee folks and bards), but for casters they are in the same category as influence: a flex you can make in an attempt to support your RP, the results of which are entirely non-binding. As PCs are in no way required to care how high you roll, the primary benefit is to show off in front of NPCs, but DMs are neither required to care how high you rolled, nor does the official server stance support any kind of reliance on DM interaction. They are a hard mechanical investment into skills that are only optionally useful with DMs on a sever where you should not count on DM interaction.

Quote
Feats Opened By
Intelligence
Charisma
Agrippa's Fundamental Guards
Bonetti's Defense
Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Expertise
Improved Knockdown
Improved Parry
Thibault's Geometry
Whirlwind Attack
Muse
Sterling Reputation
Warding Gesture

In a last-ditch attempt to find some avenue where Charisma might unexpectedly provide a benefit, I combed through every feat listed in the PotM and NWN wikis and looked for what opportunities investing in either ability score would afford. Any feat that was locked to a class or dependent on a feat that was locked to a class outside of our scope (arcane casters) was discarded as irrelevant.Instead, I concentrated on feats which had a prerequisites tied to the abilities in question.

Unfortunately, this lead us in a familiar direction. A certain quantity of Intelligence is a prerequisite for a number many combat-related feats that would pair nicely with any form of caster (particularly Expertise and Improved Expertise). The remainder are very viable options for a combat-caster, Polymorph/Shape-change enthusiast, or Tensers muscle mage. With the possible exception of Whirlwind Attack, every Intelligence-based feat is useful for some flavor of caster or another.

By contrast, I was able to find only three Charisma-requiring feats (discounting Unremarkable, which actually requires a neutral Charisma), period. Sadly, they make no stronger case for themselves than Charisma-skills. The most mechanically potent of these is Warding Gesture, which functions something like a poor-man's Turn Undead, but selected from a wider variety of enemy types. This actually isn't awful, but lacks Turn Undead's primary benefit: powering the Divine X family of feats. It is thus situationally useful and for our arcane casters suffers from two drawbacks: first you must also invest 11 Wis into this for a character who doesn't receive any particular benefit from increasing Wis (this is, in fact, often dumped entirely), and by the time your DCs are high enough to be worth using it, you probably have better options. Still, nice flavor if you can afford to spend ability points and a feat on it. Sterling Reputation is significantly less useful. Much like the OCR discussion above, the only real benefit is if you have accidentally increased your OCR penalty over time and are using this to get back under NPC auto-hostile range. Situational, at best. Of the three, Muse is the most likely feat to actually be taken. It has a unique benefit of interacting with the crafting system, as well as providing a bonus to perform. It is very likely to make you some fast friends among bards and crafters. Unfortunately, it is a benefit to everyone but you unless you intend to make a side hustle out of it. Which brings us finally to...

Quote
Crafts Affected By
Intelligence
Charisma
Alchemy (Con, Int)
Distillation (Con, Int)
Gilding (Con, Int)
Enchanting (Cha, Int)
Enchanting (Cha, Int)
Tailoring (Cha, Dex)

These really don't even need to be compared, but let no one claim I have not been thorough: Alchemy and Distillation lead to two of the most lucrative and useful crafts, with varnishes and alchemical arrows both disposable products that sell quickly and are in relatively constant demand. The only craft arguably more lucrative is herbalism. Gilding is an important part of smithing, and easily next highest on the return-on-investment metric for crafters. Meanwhile, in Charisma-town: Tailoring. Once again useful for supporting RP in a fuzzy sort of way, but the fruits thereof primarily reinforce the same soft skills backed by Charisma itself. When the Tailoring system is eventually revamped, this may be of some actual benefit to someone but for now it's unfortunately negligible. Thus the only thing Charisma has going for it is that it's equal to Intelligence in Enchanting.

Ability Economy

Taken together, the above has a further, second-order effect on the relative capacities of the arcane caster classes. Because of the difference in mechanical weight between the two abilities, Intelligence-based casters not only receive a greater benefit from their highest attribute, they end up with more ability points available to play with overall. A sorcerer who dumps intelligence is crippled on skills, has a very limited number of languages, cannot access a number of common and useful combat feats, and lacks even the ability to speak clearly -- completely undermining the primary benefit of their Charisma, however nebulous it might be. As a result, a Sorcerer will end typically have to invest at least 2 points into Intelligence just to be functional, and often as many as 6 for Intelligence 14 in order to have a couple languages and some skill points to play with. Meanwhile, the other caster classes can dump Charisma entirely with little or no ill effects, allowing them to start with a higher casting stat, or invest in other ability scores with greater impact on their overall quality of life.

Hit Dice
Quote
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
d6
d4
d6
d4

This section does not require a great deal of commentary but from the start of our class data analysis, we see a trend begin. One of the ways in which the game tells us the fitness of a class for getting in a more combat-oriented role is by the hit dice it is assigned. One of the primary bits of flavor for the sorcerer is that they are not frail academics, their lives devoted to study. The flavor text calls out that they have used that time to broaden their repertoire, specifically calling out "fighting skills." Unfortunately, when we begin to actually compare things we see that other casters -- themselves Intelligence-based and presumably also developed through intensive study -- managed to be significantly more robust. This is an unfortunate pattern that will only deepen as we explore further.


Skills and Skill Points

This is the first major area worth comparing when it comes to the overall capabilities and quality of life of a character on the server. The difference in ability score utility has already been discussed at length above and will not be reiterated here. Instead, we'll be focusing on the input of the classes themselves.

Quote
Skill Point Granted
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
6+Int Mod
2+Int Mod
2+Int Mod
2+Int Mod
The base skill points is pulled directly from the wiki and on the surface seems roughly fine. Unfortunately once we plug in the difference in casting attribute, things change dramatically. The following table assumes that each class is built in the typical way, where the caster begins with a 17 in their primary attribute and improves it at each opportunity thereafter. Sorcerer further assumes that at least 2 further points were spent on Intelligence to bring them to functional minimum of 10. The parenthetical value is listed as a more practical figure, if they are willing to make the sacrifice to get to 14 Intelligence.

Quote
Skill Points at 20 (Practical)
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
234
46(92)
142
142
Once again we run into a result that runs counter to the narrative offered by the fluff text. Despite sorcerers theoretically having the time to learn other skills compared to their wizard counterparts, they will have far, far fewer skill points overall. If we assume an equal investment in Ability points (17 int, 10 cha vs 10 int, 17 cha) the sorcerer will have less than a third of the points to spend compared to the wizard or warmage. If they spend significantly more to get int 14, they still have just barely half the same resources and spent 6-8 points more for the privilege.

The easy counter here might be that academic types would obviously be more broadly knowledgable than others, but the unfortunate mechanical truth is that 3e (and thus NWN) makes nearly everything a skill -- the academic thus not only has more knowledge skills than you do, but can afford to sink more into everything else as well -- ninja-looting (disarm trap, pick lock, search), RP skills (antagonize, influence, disguise, perform), and yes, even fighting skills (concentration, discipline, parry, tumble).

Quote
Class Skills Available
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
18
5
7
4
Appraise
Concentration
Disable Trap
Disguise
Hide
Influence
Listen, Lore
Move Silently
Open Lock
Parry
Search
Sleight of Hand
Speak Language
Spellcraft
Spot
Tumble
Use Magic Device
Concentration
Heal
Influence
Lore
Spellcraft
Antagonize
Concentration
Discipline
Heal
Lore
Parry
Spellcraft
Concentration
Heal
Lore
Spellcraft
Here the comparison grows even worse. Beguiler clearly wins on being the "Rogue, but a mage" category, but we also quickly find that even the claim about "fighting skills" falls short for sorcerer -- not only do they not have the skill points to spare, but they don't have access to the literal fighting skills as class skills. Contrast this with warmage, who will both get far more actual skill points and also gain all of the combat skills as class skills. The most fair point of comparison to sorcerer here is with wizard, as they occupy the same extremely minimal class skill selection (with the minor exception of sorcerer gaining Influence), but sorcerer doesn't have the abundance of points to casually cross-class other skills the way wizard can. More unfortunate still is that while the class is billed as something of a Face and diplomat, so many of even those skills are cross-classed for you even if you had the points to spare on them. This ends up meaning that even with all your Charisma, the 8 cha beguiler will end up with better scores in them for the same points spent - while having vastly more points to spend, in general.


Feat Economy

The feat economy of a class is the next major building block that defines what that class is capable of. For any class but the arcane casters, it is arguably the single largest chunk of what defines capability.

Quote
Proficiencies Granted
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
Armor Proficiency (light)
Weapon Proficiency (Beguiler)
Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Armor Proficiency (Light)
Shield Proficiency
Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Weapon Proficiency (Wizard)
This is a largely unsurprising spread, save for that we once again run into the same theme: one of the points made in favor of sorcerer as a Charisma caster over their Intelligence-based study-types is that they had more time to learn other skills. Specifically, fighting skills. This is why they were granted the simple weapon proficiency. Unfortunately, both beguiler and warmage gain the full benefit of intelligence casting (spontaneous, at that!) while also getting a far superior suite of proficiencies from the start. This is compounded further when we get to...

Quote
Class Features
Armored Mage
Cloaked Casting
Silent Spell
Cloaked Casting II
Still Spell
Cloaked Casting III
Cloaked Casting IV
Summon Familiar
Armored Mage
Warmage Edge
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Improved Combat Casting
Summon Familiar
Not only do we find that beguiler and warmage both begin with better "combat skills" in terms of their proficiencies granted, they can actually cast in the armor they wear. Beguiler and warmage both come out dramatically ahead in this department even over wizard. Either class not only receives a better suite of starting proficiencies and retains the ability to cast while wearing armor, they gain a series of class features that provides specializations that make them without reserve the best in their chosen niche. Sorcerer and wizard are granted only the use of a Familiar, which while a nice RP tool and even capable of some clever tricks in the earliest part of the game, is not especially useful overall.

Quote
Feats Gained By level
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
19
14
19
19
This puts the final nail in the "learn other skills" coffin. While Wizard may be an academic that dedicates their entire life to study, they end up coming away with more skills and feats than sorcerer, meaning that in terms of raw capability the exact opposite is true - whether or not their inborn talent meant the sorcerer had time to learn other things, they apparently did not. They will know less and can do less than any of the Intelligence-based academic casters, full stop. This was actually a surprise to me, when I begun this analysis. While I had known wizards got a lot of bonus feats, I hadn't realized that extended to beguiler and warmage who already get a ton of class features as they level up.

Added together, this grants the sorcerer not only the worst feat economy of the casters (proficiencies given+class features+feats gained by level), but the worst in the game, at least as far as has been implemented by PoTM.

Quote

Feat Economy Across Base Classes
Class
Proficiencies
Class Features
Free Feat Slots
Total Feat Economy
Barbarian
5
17
14
36
Bard
3
2
14
19
Beguiler
3
7
19
29
Cleric
5
1
14
20
Druid
4
10
14
28
Favored Soul
4
8
18
30
Fighter
6
0
27
33
Hexblade
5
8
18
31
Monk
1
24
14
39
Paladin
6
9
14
29
Ranger
4
8
19
31
Rogue
2
8
18
28
Sorcerer
1
1
14
16
War Mage
3
4
19
26
Wizard
1
1
19
21
Voodan
2
4
16
22

By raw numbers, the average base class has a feat economy of around 28, accounting for all benefits. Sorcerer has nearly half that, at 16. The only class that scores anywhere near as poorly is Bard at 18, but Bard has such a strong suite of features and quality of life benefits that the comparison becomes irrelevant.

Spells and Spellcasting
Spellcasting is the final major factor in what a class becomes capable of. For the classes we are examining, it is the most important and defines how they interact with their primary role. All of the following data disregards cantrips entirely, because cantrips.

Quote
Casting Method and Attribute
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
Intelligence, Spontaenous
Charisma, Spontaneous
Intelligence, Spontaneous
Intelligence, Prepared
Little we haven't already discussed here, save that it is worth highlighting that spontaneous casting is no longer a unique selling point of the sorcerer.

Quote
Spells Learned
Circle
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
Level 1
9
5
7
6
Level 2
14
5
7
4
Level 3
12
4
10
4
Level 4
8
4
7
4
Level 5
6
4
8
4
Level 6
5
3
7
4
Level 7
6
3
8
4
Level 8
5
3
6
4
Level 9
4
3
5
8
Total
69
34
65
42
This section makes two assumptions based on the wiki data. First as beguiler and warmage both know all of their available spells on reaching the level they can be cast, it simply totals their available spells as spells learned. The second assumption is that as wizards will learn two additional spells each level, they will take those two spells from the highest spell circle they can take -- particularly once they hit 9th circle, which are much harder to find in scroll form.

Unmentioned in the table data is that wizards acquire spells at a lower level than any of the other arcane casters, giving them access to their spells faster than other caster classes. Beguiler, sorcerer, and warmage acquire spells at the same levels.

For whatever reason, this section really surprised me. While sorcerer is advertised as knowing fewer spells but can use them more often, the actual difference is pretty startling. Warmage and beguiler are far and away the winners on this end, getting to know all of their available spells the moment they can cast a spell of the appropriate level. This is not only an incredibly strong feature to an already strong feature set, but the end result is that either of the pre-set niche-casters have twice the spells learned as compared to the Sorcerer. Even stranger still, the wizard has a functionally infinite capacity for spell-memorization, limited only by the number of arcane spells in the module and yet they also learn more through level-advancement alone than the sorcerer who can only learn through level advancement.


Quote
Spell Slots
Circle
Beguiler
Sorcerer
Warmage
Wizard
Level 1
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 2
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 3
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 4
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 5
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 6
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 7
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 8
6
6
6
4(5)
Level 9
5
6
5
4(5)
This is the final meaningful metric of spell casting and our sorcerer's chance to shine. The promise was that sorcerers know fewer spells, but get to use them far more often. The results bear that out. Barely.

Once more, beguiler and warmage make the sorcerer's advantage seem negligible. In this case, they wind up with identical spells per day across the board, save for a single level 9 slot. This is both an incredibly marginal difference, and one that only merges at 9th level, when sorcerer goes from 4 to 6 9th slots per day, compared to 4 to 5 on the other two classes.

Meanwhile even wizard isn't that far behind. While there's a reasonable difference between generalist wizard and sorcerer, specialist wizards are only one slot per circle short. In exchange they give an entire school of magic, but this is a trivially easy sacrifice compared to what any of the other casters are giving up. Due to the server meta, specializing in illusion (and thus giving up enchantment spells) is such a painless sacrifice that it seems to have become a default position in wizard build conversations.

Spells and Module Ecology

The differences in balance between the classes is further exacerbated by the module itself. In vanilla NWN, there are 172 spells available to wizards and sorcerers (once more ignoring that cantrips exist). PotM has increased this number by nearly half, to a total of 256 entries on the wizard/sorcerer list. For a wizard, this is a straight buff. That's 84 new spells to add to their repertoire (or a measly 78, if you chose to sacrifice Enchantment for those sweet sweet base 5 spell slots), many of which offer unique opportunities or solutions if used at the right place and the right time. Both beguiler and warmage profit from this in turn: while they are tied very tightly to their respective niches, they end up with nearly every possible spell directly tied to that niche, including those that have very limited or situational applications. The sorcerer profits least from this exchange, going from knowing about 20% of spells potentially available to 13%. That in itself is not inherently a detriment -- the existence of more spells does not make the spells they choose inherently less viable -- but it does mean that they are not receiving the same benefit from the expanded spell lists that the other arcane casters are. While this or that spell might be absolutely amazing in a very specific instance, few sorcerers can afford to sacrifice one of their precious few known spells to take something that is only situationally useful.

Where it does become a detriment is in the actual spells that were added. One of the chief benefits of "can cast more spells per day" is in areas like playing party support and providing wards. This is such a vital area of the server ecology that most content requires a mage or two around for the task -- or an herbal facsimile thereof. In the early game, the increased number of casts per day give a sorcerer something of an edge in this department - only a tiny handful of spells are regularly useful, and they have enough slots to give them to two or three front-liners. Wizards may be learning newer spells faster, but at this level can cover fewer people. Balance! Unfortunately, by mid level the wizard begins accessing Mass spells, allowing a single casting to cover the entire party. At this point and forward, the increased spell slots have a decreasing return on investment as mass versions of buffs make having 8 level 2 slots increasingly irrelevant.

The problem is further compounded by how the social aspects of the server, IC and OOC, interact with the design of the module itself. Many dungeons are set up with certain spells being the clearly optimal route, whether that's in area control/denial for the enemies or in wards for the party going in. Your fellow players know this and will want you to have them, may even simply expect for you to have them, because why wouldn't you? For a wizard, it is a trivial thing to learn all of these and pull them out when the time is right. For a sorcerer, you are faced with the unpleasant prospect of either spending a great deal of your known spells catering to the expected needs of those you travel with, or risk having the "I don't know that one" conversation many, many times going forward -- a thing thing that can easily mean that you become a "tag along, I guess" rather than someone sought out for inclusion. This is even hinted at by the PHB description, under roles:

Quote
A party with a sorcerer should strongly consider including a second spellcaster, such as a bard, cleric, druid, or even a wizard, to make up for the sorcerer’s lack of versatility.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 09:13:57 PM by ViktorYouFool »



ViktorYouFool

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2022, 08:48:17 PM »
Role-playing Implications

Moving on from the mechanics we have another area that affects general quality of life on the server: the role-playing implications each class brings to the table. Unfortunately, this is another area where sorcerers seem uniquely disadvantaged compared to the other arcane casters.

In the base game (whether NWN or 3e D&D) there is already a dichotomy between the way wizards and sorcerers are perceived in the world. Sorcerers are presented as a fiery lot, individualistic and self-taught with a huge force of personality. This in theory makes it easy for them to grab attention and gain admiration, lending some credibility to the idea of sorcerer as face and diplomat. Meanwhile, wizard is presented as a more cloistered academic but actually gains way more from working with others due to sharing knowledge and so forth. Wizards have in-character reason to work with other wizards. Contrast with: "Sorcerers have no sense of identity as a group. Unlike wizards, they gain little by sharing their knowledge and have no strong incentive to work together."

That by itself isn't terrible, but then we get to Ravenloft and we encounter the following. Quotes taken from the 3.5e Ravenloft Player's Handbook, under classes:

Sorcerer
Quote
Sorcerers are born with inherent magical powers. Depending on one's point of view, this may be a fantastic gift or a wretched curse. As a rule, the denizens of Ravenloft are highly suspicious of any beings with inherent magic powers, viewing them as both more and less than human. Common folktales, however misguided, claim that sorcerers are changelings left by the fey or reviled practitioners of witchcraft or even that they gained their powers through trafficking with fiends. Sorcerers are known to be common among Vistani women; the spell lists of Vistani seers are almost exclusively drawn from the schools of divination and enchantment. Male Vistani who exhibit sorcerers powers are killed at once, lest they become Dukkars.

No sorcerer asks to be born with magic in her blood, but adventurers who continue to advance in the class chose to further develop their talents. Even so, sorcerers are wise to reveal their magical gifts only to those they trust.

As supernatural anomalies themselves, sorcerers are often fascinated by other strange phenomena. Sorcerers frequently adventure to explore the world's unnatural mysteries, seeking to unravel the riddle of their own existence.

Wizard
Quote
What a sorcerer gains through reluctant birthright, wizards must learn through years of toil. Wizards call on arcane magic to bend reality to their will -- they change one creature into another, animate the dead to serve them or summon eldritch forces to smite their foes. They command all this without even the veneer of spiritual guidance divine spell casters receive. Endless years of study and research, combined with their need for forethought, often result in wizards developing at least mildly obsessive and controlling personalities. Some wizards grow drunk on their own power or are corrupted by the evil forces inherent in their spells and begin to think they are the sole arbiters of their fate.

Wizards are respected or even admired in some domains, such as Darkon and Hazlan, but often conceal their arcane powers in less accepting lands. Wizards can be found in nearly any domain, however, often lurking in remote towns or secretly using magic to further their goals in other arenas.

Adventuring wizards know that the study of arcane magic is a great temptation but that the rewards are just as great. Although wizards lack the physical prowess of many other adventurers, their spells can harm creatures of the night that laugh at the mightiest swing of a fighter's sword. Wizards often adventure to learn new arcane secrets an add to their power.

While the theme of "supernatural is spooky" is universal in ravenloft, wizards come off with a mixed bag of feared but even admired due to their learned nature. Sorcerers are simply mistrusted and shunned. We see this play out on server as well. While in Barovia, all arcane casters are mistrusted and can be shunned if their nature is known we see a big difference in other areas. In places like Port, Intelligence-based casters receive no real pushback. There is no significant stigma to being known to be a wizard, warmage, or beguiler. NPCs do not react to your casting in front of them. The university even supports you, with an arcane science department that actually produces the warmages themselves. Meanwhile, sorcerers seem to be the only casters that freak out the NPCs in Port and are in no way a part of acceptable society. Take it from EO:

Sorcerers always stand out; their innate magic generated by their extreme force of will is noticeable. That's not just from Ravenloft, that's part of the class description. They stand out, they're noticeable, flashy. I know most people tend to play them like spontaneous casting wizards, but they're not, they're very different.

We could also have a system where the longer the sorcerer spends in an area, the more uncomfortable NPCs are, and it raises their OCR, but that'd remove even more player agency. Instead we have an imperfect system that serves the intended purpose, which is forcing sorcerers to hide their talents. Here's the complete description from Complete Arcane:

Quote
Like bards, sorcerers tend to attract attention, but (unlike bards) rarely of the positive kind. Where a wizard might hobble into town and seem little more than a weatherbeaten traveler, revealing his true nature only at his own discretion, a sorcerer tends not to remain anonymous for long, because his personal intensity and charisma draw the eye and linger in the memory. An indefinable but tangible difference often separates the sorcerer from the rest of the world - and when difference is sown, suspicion often grows.

Where a high noble might look to her court wizard for advice and scholarly insight into the doings of her rivals, sorcerers generally have little in the way of a wizard's formal education and training. Though most sorcerers rarely feel the need to find themselves a patron or to place themselves at a lord's disposal, those who do often find themselves regarded as more of an arcane weapon than a fount of knowledge, less suited to roles as counselor and tutor than as an elite bodyguard or highly valued special agent.

In the end, whether they are evil or good, most sorcerers simply choose to exist outside the normal circles of human society. Like elemental forces of nature, the most powerful sorcerers will never be directed, either by the concerns of the common folk or the commands of a king.

So in addition to the disadvantages imposed by the raw mechanics, the class itself comes with some significant baggage from the role-play itself. In an even more perverse and unusual twist, this take by both EO and the complete arcane renders the sorcerer unique in that their charisma actually works backwards.

Quote
Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, as it affects their ability to turn undead. All characters benefit from having a high charisma when speaking with others in the world. Charisma affects an NPCs initial reaction to the player and it modifies the player's Persuasion skill checks.

Rather than making them more persuasive and more capable of leadership, increasing how they are perceived by others in the setting, sorcerous Charisma is intended to be inherently unsettling and make NPCs increasingly uncomfortable in the setting. Thus, we remove the sole benefit of having Charisma as the casting stat and completely undercut the idea presented by the PHB that sorcerers make natural face-characters and diplomats.

Quote
Since a sorcerer often has a powerful presence that gives him a way with people, he may serve as the “face” for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others. The sorcerer’s spells often help him sway others or gain information, so he makes an excellent spy or diplomat for an adventuring party.

Just not in Ravenloft.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 09:43:20 PM by ViktorYouFool »



ViktorYouFool

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2022, 08:48:34 PM »

Conclusions

Going into this, I had honestly expected a more mixed assessment. Sorcerer would likely shine in some areas and fall short in others. I expected a net result that was firmly in the "win some, lose some" category. Unfortunately, this has not been the case. In nearly every category the sorcerer falls far, far short of the other caster classes. Let's revisit our questions from earlier.

How does the sorcerer live up to its own promise?
Quote
An implication of raw, innate, dynamic power as opposed to carefully practiced and precisely studied magical ability.
Dynamic is potentially true, in the sense that it does not require advanced prep. Unfortunately the sensation of raw, innate power doesn't translate through the mechanics. This not a scalpel vs. sledgehammer sort of thing, as cool as that might be. It feels more like "guy who graduated with honors" vs "guy who never showed up to class, but his parents donated a library to the school." They might both show up to apply for the job, but there is a clear difference in what they are capable of.

Quote
They have more limited spells, and learn them more slowly, but in exchange they get to use them more often.
It is certainly true they have a vastly more limited spell selection, and they gain them more slowly than wizards. What they gain in return is a far harder sell. They gain spells "more often" by the thinnest of margins, gaining only one slot per circle per day vs the specialist wizard and against the other two casters only a single level 9th slot, and only at level 20. It is definitely an exchange, but is it worth it?

Quote
Because they don't spend their lives in a time-intensive and laborious study of magic, they have the ability to learn other things -- something specifically mentioned applying to "fighting skills," and demonstrated via the simple weapon proficiency.
This one fails in every possible way. Yes, sorcerer starts with Simple Weapon proficiency, but that's the limit of it. Of the four caster classes it is by far the worst option for any kind of combat that would rely on the use of weapons. All of the other classes have not only more bonus feats to spend (rendering Simple Weapons a moot point), they also have a better ability spread, and more skills points to spend to throw into things like discipline, parry, and tumble. Compared even solely to a melee-oriented wizard, they fall short -- and the wizard will be able to prepare a particular spell book for the purpose without interfering with their ability to play into other roles. Meanwhile, beguiler and warmage not only have all of the above advantages, but also better HD, the ability to cast in armor, and a better class skill selection for the purpose.

This point is especially painful because it is not only a failure to deliver on the niche, the exact opposite is true: not only is sorcerer not as good at being a mage as the other caster classes, it's worse at being anything else compared to the other casters. Rather than being more versatile than the cloistered academic, they can simply do less of anything, of any kind, by any metric†

Spoiler: show
†except a single level 9th spell slot, at level 20.


How do those promised strengths compare to other classes competing in the same niche
Alright, so it's not looking great on the face of it, but maybe we can find some niche it is uniquely good at occupying. What were we told?

Quote
Damage dealer and cannon, focused on offensive firepower.
Sorcerer can play a cannon, but a specialist wizard can pull this off almost as well and give up basically nothing to do it. A sorcerer built into cannon will have to give up a decent number of known spells in the pursuit, along with a handful of feats. Meanwhile, a warmage will not only have the feats to spare, but also a suite of class features that make them far better in the blaster role than anyone else can come close to.

Quote
Subtle magic, as enchantment, charms, and illusions
Using spells for information gathering as a spy
NWN is a limited environment for this kind of play, compared to pen and paper where such things can have a legitimate mechanical weight instead of being used to soft-bolster RP. Meanwhile, sorcerer is poorly suited to this even in the limited impact it can have. Giving up spells known for RP-spells means you are making life far harder for yourself in other areas (dungeoning, party utility, pvp) for effects other players may not bother honoring regardless. Meanwhile, the beguiler is literally built for this purpose and is better at it in every conceivable way in addition to having a fine suite of party buffs and other utilities that will make them welcome in any group. This isn't even close.

Quote
Taking advantage of the high charisma and being the face and diplomat through negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others
This is even worse. The only reliable application for RP skills is when dealing with NPCs, who per EO will be put off by sorcerer charisma, not warmed by. Not only then does sorcerer charisma work backwards by comparison, but due to the way so many of these functions are tied directly into skills beguiler wins this one by a country mile. Not only do you end up with the highest overall skill points to spend among the mages, and access to all of the utilities of a rogue, but you also have all of the RP skills as class skills - making you in effect a better face than the sorercer would be capable of being, even before the ridiculous quirk of sorcerous Charisma.

So why choose sorcerer over X?
So far, none of the advertised features really pan out. That said, there are a few places that aren't talked about that do give sorcerer some validity, however situational:

1. Early game buffs. A buff-bot sorcerer in the single-digit level range retains some kind of even footing with a wizard, as this early the increased casts-per-day can be more keenly felt. This benefit disappears the second mass wards show up, but it does very briefly exist -- so long as you are willing to be a walking wand of cats/bulls/etc, and don't care what happens after level 7.

2. End game PvP. While none of the classes are a slouch in this category, sorcerers can be uniquely good at counter-spelling -- provided they take all four of the universal dispels/counterspells, including using up one of their three available level 9 spells, and then build their entire known spell selection around this purpose. You have to wait until level 18, and then become more or less a one-trick pony, but you can theoretically annoy the other casters in a straight up mage-duel.

3. Build-a-bear, poorly. The one thing that sorcerers can do slightly better is be a compromised version of some other caster. This sounds like a backhanded compliment, but the logic bears out. You will always be a worse generalist caster than even a specialist wizard, but you get a razor-thin margin more spells-per-day and can cast them improv. You will be worse by far than a warmage at anything to do with dealing damage, but you can weasel in a few wards and counter spells where they cannot. You will be worse at everyone than everything, but you can kinda sorta half-ass a couple things, rather than whole-assing any one thing. Ron Swanson would not approve, but it is the one place where sorcerer has any real promise: building your own niche.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 09:43:34 PM by ViktorYouFool »



ViktorYouFool

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2022, 08:48:58 PM »
Suggested Tweaks

As it stands, there's very little reason to take sorcerer compared to any of the other classes. The two strongest conceptual roles -- blaster and face -- are done far, far better by warmage and beguiler. Basically anything else is better done by specialist wizard. At least right now. The good news is that it wouldn't take a whole lot to make sorcerer a fun and compelling niche in its own right. The class doesn't need a complete overhaul, just a couple specific tweaks to let it live up to its own promise.

No matter how tweaked, sorcerer will not compete with the other classes on their own ground -- and it shouldn't.
  • The sorcerer will never match the wizard for versatility, and as a consequence will never match the wizard for buffer, either. What minor advantages it has in casts-per-day doesn't outweigh the ability to learn all of the mass spells and tailor your list to the needs of the particular scenario and your present party composition.
  • Sorcerer will never be as good a blaster as a warmage. Even ignoring all the other advantages the warmage has as a combat character, the class features alone are enough to ensure that the warmage is untouchable in its niche.
  • Finally, anything vaguely subtle or even social is going to be utterly dominated by the beguiler. The class has nearly all the benefits of a rogue without being expected to also waste a bunch of resources on combat features, leaving it with more than enough skill points to invest in the RP skills to back up its chosen roles.

The one place that Sorcerer can shine is as a mix-and-match-class between niches. It’ll never be as good at anything as any of the others, but it could be a really fun and dynamic build-a-class setup, allowing people to carve out their own path and play-style as they go. This is not only a unique mechanical answer to the question “why play sorcerer?” it’s perfectly in keeping with the themes of the class as a whole.

In the current implementation, you can see the potential but it just doesn't have the resources to do it well. Every other arcane class not only has a far more functional setup as a mage, but the resources to help define themselves in every other way to a far greater degree. With that in mind, all that really has to be done is increase the amount of character resources the sorcerer has to play with. Thus I present, in order of importance:

More Spells Known
One of the biggest obstacles to the build-your-own-role version of sorcerer comes from the nature of the server and spells available. There are certain spells that you feel required to have just to be functional and party-viable. Some of these are buffs people will expect, some of these are quality-of life spells, some of these feel necessary just to cover your own ass in case something goes wrong. By the time you've taken all the stuff you feel like you absolutely need, there isn't much left. You certainly can ignore some of these to try to make room for more flavorful spells, but how many people are willing to sacrifice the little utility they have for some niche stuff you may only rarely get to use? Certainly there will be a few, but you're paying a hard price either way.

Fortunately, this is an easy fix. Just give the class +2 spells known per circle, across the board. This change would bring your total spells known to 52 — still 14-18 less than the spells granted to Warmage and beguiler, respectively, and on par with Favored Soul, the other Charisma-based caster who has to choose their spell list on level up. That gives enough room to add some flavor on top fo the spells that feel non-negotiable from the server ecology. More importantly, it allows the sorcerer enough spells to build between niches, being reasonably competent in a couple arenas even if they will never be as good as any of the other casters in their chosen roles. You’ll still not be as good of a cannon as the Warmage, but you’ll be able to grab some a few nice kabooms and still have room for a counterspell or two and the odd buff. You still won’t know as many spells as the Wizard or be anywhere as versatile, but you won’t feel like you’re giving up everything for nothing.

Increased Bonus Feats

One of the most galling things about sorcerer is that the pitch can feel like blatant false advertising. The proposed dynamic was actually very cool: while the wizard spent his life locked away in the laboratory, the sorcerer was free to develop a more versatile skillset in other arenas. The wizard would know more about magic and be more magically accomplished, but the sorcerer would be more a far more versatile character outside of just magic. It pretends that while the wizard was locked away learning magic, the sorcerer was learning literally anything else. Unfortunately, the sole expression of this is the Simple Weapons proficiency, rendered entirely moot by the bonus feats wizards get just for existing.

Easy Solution? Give them the same bonus feats that all the other casters get.

Not only does the class pitch make it seem like the sorcerer should know more non-magical stuff than the wizard, the “create your own niche” approach will necessitate it. This is why previously the only thing fighter had going for it was an absurd abundance of feats — when you lack class features, you have to create your own.

From a balance perspective, this should also be a non-issue. Even with all the casters on the same feat track, wizard will always remain the most versatile caster, and there’s nothing that sorcerers could do with the extra feats that would come close to challenging beguiler or warmage in their respective niches — after all, they get the same amount of feats and An entire list of class features that make them flat better than anyone else can be at those tasks.

The irony is that even with this tweak, the sorcerer still won’t know more non-magical stuff than the academics, they just won’t know dramatically less.

Increased Skill Points (optional)

A very minor tweak here, in the same theme as the feat increase. While the sorcerer will never be as good a specialist as the beguiler or warmage, and never be as magically versatile as the wizard, the class description sells this idea that the sorcerer might be more versatile outside of their magical role than their counterparts. An easy way to help bolster this is simply to increase the base skill points from +2 to +4. It’s a comparably minor increase, but it has two main effects.
  • It sells the promise very well, particularly because “fighting skills” are in PotM also a product of things like discipline, parry, concentration, and tumble — not just the simple weapon proficiency. It also gives you more room to carve out non-magical roles your sorcerer can take on, helping define themselves in a way that come naturally to the other caster classes but has to be intentionally established for a sorcerer.
  • It helps compensate for the fact that the other caster classes use Intelligence as their casting stat, and thus accrue far more points in general. Increasing the base skill point rate from 2 to 4 either means that a sorcerer can still be functional at 10 int (narrowing the gap as compared to the other caster classes, who can function perfectly well at 8 cha), or it can open up more functionality for a sorcerer who wanted to invest in 12-14int and have a decent set of skills.

Again, balance seems like a non-issue here. At present, a sorcerer gets 46 skill points (at 10int) compared to what will end up being 142 for wizard/warmage, or a staggering 234 for beguiler. Bumping that up to base-4 would grant 92 for sorcerer, compared to 142 and 234. If the sorcerer went so far as to grab 14 Int, that would bump them up to a very respectable 204 — which sounds like it would be a lot, but it is the equivalent of a beguiler dropping 6 points into Charisma for the lols. A significant sacrifice has been made.

At the end of the day, sorcerer by its own promise should be more capable in non-magical things than the wizard. Meanwhile, neither beguiler nor warmage are meaningfully threatened by this. 4+ skill points positions the sorcerer nicely between the wizard’s 2 and the beguiler’s 6, and both beguiler and warmage have access to vastly more class skills than the sorcerer does, better positioned for their respective niches. Thus even with the increased skill points sorcerer is unlikely to compete against either’s niche.  Ultimately, like with the feats, this change would mean the sorcerer still won’t know more non-magical stuff than the academics, they just won’t know dramatically less.

Class Skills (Optional)

The final change worth considering is the class skills actually available. Ignoring for a moment the utter weirdness that is the server’s stance on anti-charisma, I’m going to defer to the PHB’s description and pretend that the sorcerer should have some validity as a face. If you’re going to give me Charisma as my casting stat, please allow me the tools to properly leverage it.

In this case, the request is remarkably simple and mostly for flavor: add Antagonize, Disguise, Perform, and Speak Language to the sorcerer’s class skills.

Antagonize is sorcerous hands is literally only here as an RP skill. If you’re going to tell me sorcerers can be spooky and unsettling, then they should also be able to intimidate someone.

Disguise seems like an obvious choice as a class skill whose entire concept on PotM relies on hiding their true nature. You could argue that high charisma would make it harder to hide, but then you’d have to explain why the mechanics are the exact opposite — disguise is a charisma skill. Ergo, the higher your charisma is, the higher your modifier to disguise, the better you should be at disguising yourself.

Perform has literally no mechanical utility here, but it fits nicely with the theme and gives the sorcerer a natural outlet for their charms.

Finally, Speak Language seems an obvious utility for any character who has Face/Diplomat potential. Bards and Beguilers get it naturally for this reason. Moving it to a class skill would both help make it easier to play the traveling face type or con artist while also helping mitigate some of the disadvantage of Charisma over Intelligence as your casting stat — after all, starting with 17 int means finishing at 22, and getting +6 languages for free.

Net Result

Taken together, the above changes would help cement the class as a viable and interesting alternative to the academic casters and allow you to build your own role as you go. Meanwhile, all of the changes are effectively horizontal, rather than verticals. The classes capabilities get broader, but not necessarily deeper. While you become more versatile over all, you aren’t becoming all that much more powerful in any particular direction. You won’t be uniquely better at anything the way that the other casters are, but you have enough room to dabble and experiment. You can build flavor for your character without having to be useless in the process. In the end, that’s what sorcerer is and should be — a process of discovery, finding your place in the setting and learning who your character is.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 09:43:46 PM by ViktorYouFool »



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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2022, 08:49:17 PM »
Apologia
The following constitutes my attempt to address some of the expected criticisms from the start. I will do my best to do so in good faith and present the strongest version of the opposing argument I can offer.

This is a role-play server
It certainly is, and yet the role-playing opportunities you have are not divorced from the mechanical implementation of the classes themselves. The tools your class gives you play a big role in what your character is good at and the roles you can actually play. Closely related is:

The class is already viable.
All classes are viable in some fashion if you have a group willing to carry you. That's never been in contention, and is somewhat meaningless for the actual question posed: why should someone choose sorcerer over one of the other mage classes? Right now, it isn't living up to its own promise, let alone presenting itself as a compelling option compared to the other mages.

Sorcerer is about RP flavor
The most common counter to the above is because sorcerer is a distinct flavor of mage with its own concept and RP. The problem is that the mechanics of the class do nothing to further this class in a way that can't be done by the other casters. While none of the others are technically innate casters, that doesn't actually matter in the mechanics. It'd be just as easy to throw a decent charisma score on any of the other characters and be able to do everything a sorcerer presently can, but better, and with more options on top of that.

That's how it is in PnP!
This is a valid point, but there are a lot of things to consider. First and foremost, the pen-and-paper game is a very different play-style and environment than a persistent world module.
  • A good DM is tailoring the obstacles you encounter to the kinds of choices you've made for your character and your spell-list, to give you the chance to shine. The world is adjusting to you, as much as you're adjusting to the world.
  • The benefits of increased casts-per-day are more significant when you are literally resting on a per-in-fiction-day basis, instead of a per-minutes-of-game-time basis.
  • The ability to spontaneously cast instead of relying on spell-prep is dramatically more useful in a world where you are always at a center of an ongoing story with an active DM -- and significantly undercut when the vast majority of content you will encounter, you have encountered dozens or even hundreds of times before, already know what to expect and how to prepare.
  • The nature of play in tabletop D&D means that things like quality-of-life features are far less important, as you will spend nowhere near as much time living in that skin and dramatically less time ever having to function on your own without the entire group present.
  • Your party is literally the folks who showed up at the table. You don't need to worry about who will best occupy your niche because the other people very likely adjusted the characters they intended to play around the choices you made, just as you did in turn. And because you only really play with these people and these characters, you can far more comfortably optimize around the extremely specific niche you want to play in your group. Meanwhile, you're not worrying about dozens of other people playing other sorts of mage who may or may not get picked over you for a given party for a given circumstance.

But even ignoring all of this: sorcerer was also controversial in the base game by people who played it in PnP at the time, arguing that it gave up too much in comparison to just playing a wizard. Even the PHB advises that parties that contain a sorcerer should probably pack a wizard or something just in case. At no point does it suggest that parties with a wizard need a sorcerer.

Finally, the server makes adjustments from PnP all the time, when it suits them. The nature of a persistent world environment and the mechanics NWN gives us to work with require an adaptation layer and that's fine. PotM literally cannot be a direct adaptation of PnP by its very nature. The best goal it can aim for is to be the best version of PotM it can.

Dev time is better used other projects.

This is a perfectly fair and reasonable point, but classes do get adjusted all the time. Nothing in the suggestions would require the implementation of anything that isn't already present in the system, just a few tweaked parameters. With very few adjustments, an age-old sore spot could be soothed and it would result in a dramatically better play-experience for an under-appreciated class.

The class will be too powerful

Class abilities can roughly be estimated in two directions: Width and depth, versatility vs raw power. None of the changes suggested increase the ability of the sorcerer in any one arena. None of them even come close to making the sorcerer better than any of the other mage-classes at the things in which those classes excel. In point of fact, none of them even dramatically increase the sorcerer's ability to be good at a specific thing to which a sorcerer might presently dedicate themself. As it stands, the main problem is that even becoming a laser-focused specialist, the sorcerer will not be as good at being a specialist in that niche than the other mage classes are by default -- even ignoring the extra skill points, feats, and class features they might have.

Instead the changes suggested broaden the sorcerer's abilities in such a way that they can carve out their own space between the other casters and pick up some utility of their own. We are increasing their width, not their depth. And more to the point, the suggestions offered don't actually increase their width any further than what every other mage class already receives by default - same number of feats, and still fewer overall free ability and skill points, still fewer spells known than anyone else.

The strongest example scenario for the "too powerful" argument is the dedicated pvp sorcerer. This is the strongest thing sorcerer has going for it in terms of raw power, but it is for many reasons a bad point of comparison for a balance discussion. To begin with, it is entirely moot until your character hits 18 and can get their first level 9 spell. It really doesn't come online until 19 or even 20, when you get the spells you will actually need for it -- Time Stop and Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Actually excelling in mage pvp role will mean spending a huge quantity of your very limited resources (feats, spells known, skill points) to do so as well, and the end result will be only marginally better than a specialist wizard in the same role.

Aside from the dubious merit of weighing a classes' entire balance discussion an extremely narrow niche not everyone is interested in playing, that requires utter and complete dedication there-to at the cost of all other utilities, that only works at a level few ever reach, the suggestions made do not significantly increase the ability of a sorcerer to perform in that role -- at best it would allow them to reach the same level of power they currently have without having to be useless for everything else. Making a character's sole usefulness built around pvp tends to encourage the player to solve everything with pvp. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. It seems self-evident that letting the same character broaden out to expand their toolset is a net positive overall.

Sorcerers can solo X

If a sorcerer takes the right feats, the right spells, and the player knows how to game the server very specifically, yes, they can. Nearly anywhere that a sorcerer can be specifically built to solo, a specialist wizard or a warmage can solo without any real sacrifice made on their part and a beguiler can ninjaloot instead. The argument has at no point been "can sorcerers do things?" But rather, why would should someone take sorcerer compared to the other mages?

You didn't include cantrips!

Fair. If you can make a solid argument for why these are relevant for class balance I will repost the entire thing with an updated spell-section to account for cantrips.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 09:43:57 PM by ViktorYouFool »



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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2022, 08:49:31 PM »

Summary

Sorcerer has been the subject of balance debates from the moment that 3e D&D was published. This was only exacerbated in Neverwinter Nights, where the realities of a persistent world further emphasized the differences in capabilities relative to the wizard class. The initial purpose of this document was to investigate whether the class was in fact at a disadvantage by comparison and whether adjustments were necessary.

The process of this document has been to define balance specifically in terms of what a sorcerer offers in comparison to the other mage classes -- wizard, warmage, and beguiler -- and then to ask if the existent mechanics of the sorcerer class offered any compelling reason or use case to recommend it over the alternatives. To answer this, we compared every possible metric by which the four mage classes could be measured. When the numbers were in, we learned that sorcerer:
  • Has a casting attribute that is objectively less mechanically useful than  the other mage classes, and has fewer ability points to spend as a result.
  • Has worse HD than the other two vaguely-combat casters
  • Ends up with fewer skill points than every other caster
  • Receives fewer feats than every other caster
  • Has the worst overall base class feat economy in the entire game
  • Knows dramatically fewer spells than every other class
  • And in exchange ends up with only one spell slot per circle per day, compared to a specialist wizard, and only a single level 9 slot at level 20 compared to beguiler and warmage.

On top of this, the sorcerer class also suffers a number of unique disadvantages to its role-play opportunities both in relation to the other mage classes and to other charisma-based characters as a whole. Meanwhile their actual mechanics offer almost nothing to support what role-play niches they occupy that could not be as easily done and with fewer penalties by another mage class.

Finally, we compared the class to the promises made by its own flavor text. Unfortunately, it both fell short of the vision presented and is worse at every niche suggested than the other mage classes.

The silver lining of this was to find a single role at which the sorcerer could uniquely excel: playing as a dynamic platform to carve out your own space between niches and define a unique play-style. To that end, the following suggestions were made to bring the sorcerer up to par with the other classes and render it better able to fulfill the one niche for which it has real potential:
  • Increase the spells known by +2 per circle. This would bring the spells known to 52, still 14-18 fewer than known by warmage or beguiler, and infinitely fewer than can be known by the wizard. This would also bring the number of spells known on par with Favored Soul, the other comparable Charisma-caster who must choose spells on level-up.
  • Increase the bonus feats from 14 to 19, the same as with the other mages. One of the most significant concepts in the difference between sorcerer and intelligence-casters is the notion that while the cloistered academics had to labor away at their studies, the sorcerer had time to learn other things. At the very least, then, they should not know less.
  • Optional, but recommended: Increase the skill points gained per level from 2 to 4. This further feeds into capacity of a sorcerer to compete with the other mages at non-mage things (as suggested by their flavor text), but also helps lessen the power disparity inherently introduced by the difference between Intelligence and Charisma as casting attributes.
  • Optional, but recommended: Give sorcerers antagonize, disguise, perform and speak language as class skills. The sole benefit of a charisma-character is in RP skills. If one of the suggested roles for a sorcerer is as a face-character, it seems eminently fitting that they be given the ability to leverage that narrow, soft skillset to its fullest potential.

Taken together, the suggestions paint a very compelling vision of the class that would emphasize the unique blaze-your-own path individuality that is hallmark to a sorcerer and provide significant quality of life benefits without coming close to overshadowing any of the other mage classes in their respective elements.


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« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 09:44:07 PM by ViktorYouFool »



Dardonas

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2022, 08:50:58 PM »
Yeah, I think the class needs a little something myself.

cooachlyfe

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2022, 08:52:22 PM »
+1

remnar

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 09:07:07 PM »
amen brother +10000 (i am worth more people than other people are)

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2022, 09:09:33 PM »
I will say, having leveled a sorcerer currently to 15, whom is still my only main PC on this server aside some alts for curious interest of other classes? Even my own sorcerer is built for PvP and yet serves as a buff-bot on the basis for common-needs warding. Suffice to say, the whole experience from early level was painful torture - for the power-creep of other casting classes greatly overshadow anything advertised to a Base Class which could use more love for it's place on the server and the setting.

I was very skeptical reading the post, seeing as I have played this class dutifully since the base NWN release but yeah, a lot of what is input on this thread is fairly true. It would give the class better grounds for performance as well! And I fully agree with the listed changes to help support it. Another would be simply freeing up the feat-economy needed for meta-magic feats and providing those naturally to the class as a boon, those already eat up a lot of such as it is given the feats you will want? depending. But frankly, the class needs much love and I hope the Development Team will make a consensus for some kind touch-up on it in any case.

A well written, well thought out post.


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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2022, 09:25:02 PM »
I played a fairly well known sorcerer through to level 18, and I was a firm defender of the class tiill today.

After due contemplation, I am inclined to agree. You can plan it. It's a fun unique concept.

But mechancally - Particularly in the feats department, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2022, 09:27:04 PM »
+1
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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2022, 09:33:14 PM »
Well thought out post with good (I feel) solutions.


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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2022, 09:34:55 PM »
Based on the data you present, it's hard to dispute that sorcerers are in a worse place than other arcane casters. However, I don't think the solution is to (only) buff another caster.

 Sorcerer does poorly compared to the other casters but that doesn't mean they do poorly when compared to non caster classes. I know in your paper you explain that there is no real use in comparing apples to oranges when considering classes to pick between one another for a role, but I still think it's important to provide some comparison for sorcerers in the broader scope of the module. Arcane casters do not exist in a vacuum, but alongside the rest of the cast, and in order to understand the potential niches a sorcerer could fill in the metagame and where they may be lacking compared to others. For example, a sorcerer may not be the best at giving buffs, but they are nevertheless able to fill the role adequately.

I think it would be reasonable to try and bring these classes back down in line with sorcerer through nerfs and tweaks. I think that the server has undergone some power creep in the past few years, especially with the addition of the new classes. I don't think that power creep has applied equally to all classes, and so it makes the old and less touched feel weak by comparison.
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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2022, 10:10:17 PM »
It has never really made sense to me that Wizards, who arguably spend their time in intense study of magic, should get access to the number of feats they do. One would think that someone with more time to devote to other pursuits, whose magical aptitude comes naturally, would have more bandwidth left to expand their horizons in other directions.

That's really my only comment on this. Sorcerer's certainly not in an unplayable state, but they've never stacked up favorably to a wizard until the very latest levels (levels that a fair portion of the server doesn't reach) and then only when done with sufficient meta-knowledge of what spells are actually useful on the server.
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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2022, 10:14:17 PM »
I've been wizarding all my life, and I always felt bad for my sorcerer counterparts. I agree with everything that ViktorYouFool wrote.

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2022, 10:18:28 PM »
All that stuff he done wrote

I don't think nerfing all the other classes is really the answer.  Partially because wizard is effectively unchanged from base game (aside from receiving the additional POTM feats every class received).  Additionally, nerfing warmage and beguiler would, depending on the method, kind of sort of neuter the classes from their specialty.
Warmage blasts.  They have a few buffs that make it so they can kill harder (or look cooler while doing it, aka flame weapon and flame shield).
Beguiler is basically rogue but better, and a nerf of it I believe should be in relation to rogue, not Sorcrerer.

And, finally, when a set of likes have an odd one out in effectiveness, it is easier to buff ONE than to nerf MULTIPLE.  Sorcerer is clearly behind in every metric compared to wizard, beguiler, and warmage.  To balance them down would require specific and well though out nerfs tailored to each class.  Bringing sorcerer up would be fairly simple and I feel like the solutions presented in the (very long) report are quite adequate.

And I'm sure mister viktor would just love to write a report balancing sorcerer with all the other classes.

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2022, 10:29:58 PM »
This is a good analysis and I like the suggestions suggested by Viktor.


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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2022, 10:37:50 PM »
I agree with almost every point made here. I have played both a wizard and a sorc to level 18 and dabbled in the other two classes mentioned. I would maybe recommend slightly more subtle tweaks at first. The feat and skill points would make the most sense to me lore-wise and then maybe toss one more cast per day and a couple more spells known at most to the sorc. I'm most inclined to agree with the point about skills and feats because per the stated lore, a wizard devotes all of their time to the study and comprehension of magic. It takes decades of study to manage first level spells. (which is confusing to comprehend when someone just mutliclasses into wizard one day but that is another point). A sorcerer should have the time in their life to dabble more in other areas of expertise over said wizard. 4+int skills and a few more feats should easily represent that. If another spell per day was considered I would say all levels except for 9th. That might be too crazy of a power shift.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:45:38 PM by Zyemeth »

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2022, 10:41:34 PM »
D&D is not a balanced game.

I have to say I glossed over a lot of it, skimming through points like skillpoints, HD, etc etc.

I'm not a fan of the number of spells that sorcerers know per level, that's about it. Warmage has the edge on damage for damage sake and spells, but sorcerer gets a fair bit of diversity in spells that I enjoy.

Isolate your magic down to just the win condition scenarios, metamagic across multiple spell slots and its ok.

Wish they could know more spells at once, that's about it, I think everything else is fine with them though. Already too many feats on this server. Other spellcasting classes getting more just lets them be.. not spellcasters in their off time.

Zyemeth

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2022, 10:49:55 PM »
D&D is not a balanced game.

I have to say I glossed over a lot of it, skimming through points like skillpoints, HD, etc etc.

I'm not a fan of the number of spells that sorcerers know per level, that's about it. Warmage has the edge on damage for damage sake and spells, but sorcerer gets a fair bit of diversity in spells that I enjoy.

Isolate your magic down to just the win condition scenarios, metamagic across multiple spell slots and its ok.

Wish they could know more spells at once, that's about it, I think everything else is fine with them though. Already too many feats on this server. Other spellcasting classes getting more just lets them be.. not spellcasters in their off time.

DnD at it's core in 3.5 is a very well balanced game. Everything about classes and races is designed about "in order to be good at something you are worse at something else". It's the crazy Frankenstein multiclasses and addons that throw all that out the window. Anytime a change is made to the base material everything else is thrown further out of balance and further changes/corrections must be made. Which being a video game in itself as nwn already has done and further rulings for each individual server also throws everything off farther. Hence why such threads exist in order to look at side effects of changes made and how to lean back in toward balance.

And the entire point of the class is that a sorcerer should have the most time outside of their lives to be something other than their class. It just comes to them naturally.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:51:51 PM by Zyemeth »

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2022, 10:51:36 PM »
This was a very well written post, and I broadly agree with the conclusions. Sorcerer clearly needs something.

To illustrate something that was touched on in this post but I think could stand to have more said on it-

The fact that a sorcerer's larger number of casts per day don't even translate to a meaningful ability to ward more people, due to the existence of mass spells that a wizard will learn as a matter of course and that a sorcerer often cannot afford to take.

Let's consider a basic buffing scenario- You have Wynonna the Wizard and Sara the Sorceress. They're both the only arcane caster for a large group of people. They're both level 20 and have a primary casting stat of 23.

Sara the Sorceress has dedicated herself enough to buffing to have all the standard buffs needed for a functioning party. Dolng some quick math and juggling her slots around with metamagic, she casts seven greater mage armor spells with her fourth level slots, and then extends improved invisibility into her fifth level slots to give it to those seven people as well. Her first level slots are shields, and luckily for her party, she has invested in having both cat's and bull's available, so she asks each of the seven people she's warding which they prefer. The monk doesn't get the owl's wisdom they wanted, but they'll live. Sara can't give out greater magic weapon or sonic weapon, because she needs to save those spell slots for hastes- But that's fine, all the martials have varnishes they can use. Thus well prepared, the party heads into the dungeon.

Now let's see how Wynonna the Wizard does. Luckily for her party, she knows lots of mass spells, speeding up the warding process significantly. She casts improved invisibility sphere, providing it to the entire party. Then, she casts mass maximized bull's, bear's, and cat's, providing all of these to the entire party as well. Thanks to her clever use of mass spells, Wynonna can dedicate all of her fourth and fifth level spellslots to greater mage armor, allowing her (an illusion specialist) to ward twelve people. Since she doesn't need to spend her 2nd level slots on animal spells, she can do the same for shield, and still have a slot to spare for that owl's wisdom the monk wanted, which she of course knows, because she's a wizard. It wasn't maximized like all her other animal spells, but the monk isn't complaining. Finally, Wynonna is easily able to provide greater magic weapons to those who don't have enchanted weapons, though even she doesn't have the spellslots for sonics too, so all the martials once again cover the gap with varnishes. Hastes? Of course she has extended mass hastes prepared, easily providing it to the entire party for nearly the entire rest.


Of course, there are some assumptions in this post- That the sorceress doesn't have mass spells. Certainly, some do take improved invisibility sphere and mass haste- But they do so at significant costs. Both 6th and 7th level spells known are highly contested for sorcs, and depending on the niche someone wants to build themselves into, they may not be able to justify the expense of the spells known. No reasonable sorc builds are taking mass animal spells. As 6th level spells known, the opportunity cost is simply too high. Obviously a sorcerer with extreme dedication to being a warder will be able to outperform a wizard at this one task- But the wizard, next rest, can change their entire spellbook to favor blasting, or prepare for pvp, or cast true seeing and insight for their spotter friend to try to find a spy, or knock for the party's underleveled rogue, who needs a bit of help.

The sorcerer can only do their one thing they've chosen to hyper specialize in, and they do it, at best, slightly better than the wizard.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 11:06:53 PM by Lexica »
Michelle Anciaux

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Re: A Comprehensive Comparison of Arcane Caster Classes
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2022, 10:55:51 PM »
words
words2
That's wrong actually, even base 3.5e DND is extremely unbalanced.  Wizards alone just go pbbbbbt over everything.  There's a lot you can do with just your basic tools in PnP.  However, what NWN does is actually make everyone kind of good, where as no one would actually choose a monk or fighter in PnP when 3.5e was a caster's edition.  Additionally, in PnP your DM can go "Yeah" or "Nah" to things you might try to do.  Here on POTM its entirely up to what the DM's and devs have put in place to restrict powergaming - and no one can think of everything to prevent that.

But that is neither here nor there, and let's not muck up a thread about a specific aspect of the server with a discussion on much more broad strokes.

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