Elemental Essence Bugged (?)

[SoggyBiscuit]

Another note elemental forms damage does not count as bludg. So you end doing 15-18 dmg a hit even with two essences activated.

[zDark Shadowz]

As someone with a lvl 19 druid

Ow

But expected.

I took weap proficiency martial 1st level, so I'll probably keep zen archery, but since one of the vision feats has Point Blank Shot attached I think I'll trade the three elemental essences, point blank shot and rapid shot for skill focus spot, hawk vision, cat vision, alertness and sharp eyes

Its ok. Kind of wanted to be a Spot druid anyway. I know from when my elemental essences ran out that aboleth was extremely slow to do, but my bear companion was out dps'ing me anyway even with my 4d6 elemental essence. I dont like using bear as war bear but I dont want to jump on the polar express train so thats what I'll do.

For ref the druid is keeping her GSF Conj. Didnt take wwapon focus or improved critical with the bow.

My previous feat list was
1: Blind Fight, Weapon Prof Martial
2: Point Blank Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Zen archery
6,8,9,11 Elemental essence
12, 14 Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus
15 Weapon Finesse
17: Extra Wildshape
18: Improved Knockdown.

There was a lot of things I couldnt fit in but now I can, I guess, if I change my mind.

Thats what the actual elemental essence druid feat lists looks like. I met one other druid, an elf, who pretty much did the same thing except no martial prof (they had bow proficiency anyway) and swapped out their spell focuses for weapon focus and improved critical.

Weapon finesse is required for air elemental or else the AB isnt going to reach their high of like, 34, without insane support from greater heroism, crescendo, X amount of cleric spells etc. (14 BAB, 16 modifier, big sky, greater magic fang, I guess its 36 at lvl 19)

Improved Knockdown is because stopping things from hitting your allies is important when enemies keep ignoring your 57ish AC after wizard buffs.

Also elder air elemental at level 20 the size category jumps from medium to huge, kind of negating their +4 more dex, so I wanted to make use of being able to knockdown beyond collossal sized creatures. Where is the Tarrasque already XD

[PrimetheGrime]

I hear a lot about polar bear supremacy, but then again I've also heard that other wildshapes can be just as deadly if done right. Maybe try experimenting some more with other wildshapes and buffs and see what you can do. Removing the stackable essences wont kill your druid. There's still plenty of damage output coming from that class

[SardineTheAncestor]

When the meta favourite choice is removed, other choices become more agreeable by necessity. I think a lot of players are going to be surprised with what the other wildshape spender feats do once they give them another read.

[gotesu]

Raising the dmg dice from 1d6 to 1d10 or maybe making it 2d6 (without stacking several) is also a way to do a significant reduction from 4d6 without totally killing that aspect of druids.

[-narwhal-]

Hi, i made a druid because i wanted to stack elemental essences to deal massive dmg as elemental and my plan was to not even use bear form due i simply didnt want to be another bear.
So i put 100s hours in that character and now the essences gets nerfed.
We get a free relevel but it ruined my idea and build so badly that i simply no longer want to play the character.
People can say druid will be still good and all, yeah maybe spell caster druids will be nice however the purpose why i made my druid and spent 100s hours on it is totally ruined.
So how its fair getting a relevel for a build that is totally ruined if i dont want to play druid anymore due recent changes ?
I say goodbye for the 100s hours gameplay  and i get literally nothing for compensation.

Sounds not fair.

[Maffa]

I am sorry for your loss (unironically). But honestly, from what you write it seems that the only scope of your character was to minmax a concept. If this were a league of legend or world of tanks server I would rally behind you, but this is a roleplay server. How your character relied on a frankly overpowered balancing says nothing of your character on a roleplay standpoint, without mentioning that within your class you still have so many other alternatives to equally powerful builds that dont depend on unique equipment like martials do.

[-narwhal-]

I am sorry for your loss (unironically). But honestly, from what you write it seems that the only scope of your character was to minmax a concept. If this were a league of legend or world of tanks server I would rally behind you, but this is a roleplay server. How your character relied on a frankly overpowered balancing says nothing of your character on a roleplay standpoint, without mentioning that within your class you still have so many other alternatives to equally powerful builds that dont depend on unique equipment like martials do.

Yes, i wanted to have a min max char mechanically to do end game content with (there is nothing wrong with it i guess - as an optimized build will be able to do more content with success than a non optimalized so it makes no sense to me to not do it as it surely wont hurt ever but will help here and there) - it has nothing to do with RP tbh.
Obviously the rp is not ruined, it would be impossible to ruin that part.

"mentioning that within your class you still have so many other alternatives"

what alternatives ? i dont want to play a spell caster druid or a supporter warder one - i wanted to play a hard hitter elemental shaped druid which is now impossible. Yes i still can become elemental and do terrible dmg - great.

edit/ Also iam done posting in this topic, its pointless imo. I understand druid will be still playable in other ways.. its just i dont want to play those kind of druids so RIP the invested hours. (for me)

[Kaninchen]

I hear a lot about polar bear supremacy, but then again I've also heard that other wildshapes can be just as deadly if done right. Maybe try experimenting some more with other wildshapes and buffs and see what you can do. Removing the stackable essences wont kill your druid. There's still plenty of damage output coming from that class

Arguably, experimenting on the server is fairly punishing, as there is limited chances to try things outs, and then be able to correct them.  If the dev team truly has this idea to encourage new things, I'd say open up the test server to let people actually experiment their ideas, that way they don't waste their relevel granted from this change.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

I hear a lot about polar bear supremacy, but then again I've also heard that other wildshapes can be just as deadly if done right. Maybe try experimenting some more with other wildshapes and buffs and see what you can do. Removing the stackable essences wont kill your druid. There's still plenty of damage output coming from that class

Arguably, experimenting on the server is fairly punishing, as there is limited chances to try things outs, and then be able to correct them.  If the dev team truly has this idea to encourage new things, I'd say open up the test server to let people actually experiment their ideas, that way they don't waste their relevel granted from this change.

The test server is always running and available to everyone, you just have the download the hak manually and you'll have access to it. You also get automatically leveled up to 20. So you can already test any kind of build you want, as much as you want, whenever you want.

[Nezmith]

If this were a league of legend or world of tanks server I would rally behind you, but this is a roleplay server.

One thing I think people *are* missing is that tons of druids will now all at once have to explain why they're focusing on specific shifts and have given up on bows/melee weapons/hand-to-hand/etc where it may have been a part of their story before. That is an RP consequence. Like it or not, min-maxing can be important on this server, especially if you want specific builds to work. Some of the end-game dungeons are just that difficult.

Furthermore, the comparison to LoL or WoT is just not fair at all. Completely changing the dynamic of something in these games, whether it's a character or the armor values on a tank in games where you have five to twenty minute matches is not the same as gutting characters that people have spent months to years to develop. It's essentially making the choice to throw their innovativeness and enjoyment away that they've spent a good chunk of their lives realizing.

As bloodless mentioned, yes, having elemental essences (as a feat any form can use) make these builds viable is not ideal as far as balance goes. I agree that unresistable damage is way over the top, however it's a patch in the hole of a boat named Versatility and taking the patch out without having a proper solution only helps sink the ship. He also mentioned Zen Archery being absurdly strong toward which I may have to disagree in part, as I always felt I was even MORE effective turning into a dire polar bear that my build didn't even focus on. The whole experience would again solidify my belief that the shifts are a bigger problem than any supplementary feats a druid *can* take.

As others pointed out before and after the intention to change essences, the myriad of druid forms aren't the only thing affected here, as this also comes as a big nerf to shifters, who are also part of a druid's versatility. In the past, we were given acknowledgement that shifters were blatantly worse than pure druids, however the one thing that made them viable still was their ability to take and make use of *all* wildshape feats.



I generally think PRCs should be thought of as an upgrade over base classes, especially for the work that is put in to achieve them. Will there then be further adjustments made to make shifters more viable? Perhaps shifter levels could unlock the ability to use multiple essences at once? Whatever the case, I'm only seeing more problems than solutions.

[JustMonika]

Many PrC's are not particularly powerful, and we strongly encourage players to take them for the roleplay they bring and generate, and not because they provide a mechanical advantage or upgrade. Shifter is no exception.

[BlackEmperor]

I think lowering the available unsoakable, unblockable damage to a single d6 is a great choice on a full caster class that can make itself immune to sneak attacks & crits and also the ability to spot dedicate stealthers with minimal investment is a good choice

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Thanks for your feedback, we've taken it into consideration and we decided  to give non-stacking for the elemental damage feat a try. The change will most likely take effect when the hak update is released in order to allow releveling.

[Nezmith]

Many PrC's are not particularly powerful, and we strongly encourage players to take them for the roleplay they bring and generate, and not because they provide a mechanical advantage or upgrade. Shifter is no exception.

The discussion's over at this point, but I'd like to say that in a franchise called Dungeons and Dragons it's a huge sacrifice for players to go from a competitive class to something that is demonstrably far inferior. Yes, there is *always* the roleplay argument when it comes to balance discussions, for whatever reason, but I'd say most of us are already here for the roleplay. Having the ability to go out and enjoy your class mechanics on a practical field, exploring the franchise for its namesake, can still be an enjoyable pasttime even with that in mind, and keeping classes fun to play mechanically should still be a priority.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Thanks for your feedback, we've taken it into consideration and we decided  to give non-stacking for the elemental damage feat a try. The change will most likely take effect when the hak update is released in order to allow releveling.

Am I missing a post that got deleted or something? Which change are you referring to?

[Iluvatar / Madness]

The post you quoted was me announcing the change, druid elemental dmg feat will not stack anymore, the change will take effect in a future update, likely the hak update, I have no ETA to give.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Ah okay.

I had some weird deja vu or something, and maybe the optimist in me was thinking druids would be allowed to increase the damage of the element of their choice but without stacking any other elements

Cheetah's Speed > ele essence every day of the week. Get ready to be fast and very crit immune, animal people.

[tylernwn]

I am sorry for your loss (unironically). But honestly, from what you write it seems that the only scope of your character was to minmax a concept. If this were a league of legend or world of tanks server I would rally behind you, but this is a roleplay server. How your character relied on a frankly overpowered balancing says nothing of your character on a roleplay standpoint, without mentioning that within your class you still have so many other alternatives to equally powerful builds that dont depend on unique equipment like martials do.

This may be a role play server, but people do still create the builds that they want to play. I can understand that a build that was made to specifically take advantage of some feature, might become unplayable if said feature is later changed. After all a relevel won't let you change your attributes, which could be badly matched to other roles.

[PlatointheCave]

 

[noah25]

Thanks for your feedback, we've taken it into consideration and we decided  to give non-stacking for the elemental damage feat a try. The change will most likely take effect when the hak update is released in order to allow releveling.

Cool thank you for the update and your work on this even if I dont agree with your decision, I understand you have a much more holistic view of balance than I do so I might be wrong and my druid rogue zen archer might be fine. I am certain this wouldn't have affected Frido much she would have dropped her second one for cheetah speed, and my zen archer might as well because you can get clever with it. I am not concerned about frontline druids, they will be fine, even pure build zen archery druids will be fine IMO, its multiclassed zen archery build druids I anticipate being hurt the most by this since they don't have the same casting potential, tanking options, and needed the damage boost in my experience. 

In regards to other posts rebalancing the animal forms would be nice though I have never been a polar bear person myself( I think a bunch of  PCs just encountered a polar bear after they put in the new forms and went, yes, that must be best without actually comparing all the options and seeing it hit hard. At 17 its going to be elemental or shapechange anyways, and prior to that crocodile can be terrifying if done correctly), I think each of the shifting feats have one form that is head and shoulders superior to the others. It would be nice even if the strongest were toned down to give a reason to use the others. Unique DR, skills, etc, could even see room for ones that are otherwise weak but you get things like evasion to emphasize what IMO is what makes druids fun which is their flexibility and adaptability. But undertstandably this would be a large investment from a dev perspective.

I won't beat the dead horse too much but I still think if you are taking 4 elemental essences you are making a mistake anyways. I think it hurts the people who have 2 or 3 the most and in a pure druid build I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.