Elemental Essence Bugged (?)

[noah25]

As someone who has played two druids since this feat has been released one at  level 20 pure druid and one multiclassed at level 12, I think your assumption here is flawed. It is a significant feat drain to take all four and I haven't opted to either time as you give up feats  that are critical to tanking in higher level dungeons, improved knockdown, metamagic, spell penetration etc. Assuming a druid needs to take all of these to be optimally powered is a misconception. Yes, you will do the most damage this way but its at the expense of flexibility, durability, and combat casting effectively.  Mostly what the stacking elemental essences do is make a zen archery druid serviceable which previously they weren't.

I do think druids are one of the more powerful classes on the game but if you are going to rebalance them Paladin and sorcerrer are going to have to be on the chopping block also. A smart level 20 paladin or sorcerrer kills a level 20 druid every time.

Before we start putting "Paladin and Sorcerer on the chopping block", Paladin has already recieved a nerf. Sorcerer isn't even close to how powerful even a mid levelled druid is. I can name on one hand how many classes can solo most of the content on the server and paladin aint on the list. Druid has the capability as well as increasing their stats exponentially with one wild shape let alone elemental essences. At the end of the day, we can't fix the current bug with Elemental Essence as it requires Beamdogs input.

This Argument is absurd. They had to nerf the range on several wizard/ sorcerer spells because it was insanely easy to solo, curst trolls, perfidus, etc with a mediocre wiz/sorc completely alone and you can still do it with decent spell selection on a mid range sorcerer. Im not advocating for nerfing anyone, im merely pointing out if you want to target something this is a silly thing to target. There are more powerful classes, and frankly, more powerful druid abilities to latch onto than this. All you are going accomplish by doing this is eliminating ranged druids from the server.

[DM Sinister]

It comes down to this: we either implement things based on PnP or we don't.  Every time I have suggested a change, I have had the book quoted at me if it was something even slightly different from what's in the source material.  Unless we're picking and choosing when we follow PnP and when we don't, in which case I have a bunch of Hexblade buffs I'd like to propose.

End of argument: PnP says one can be active at a time.

How do we like those long lasting animal buffs?

[zDark Shadowz]

It's a different animal.

Lol.

Duration is.. handled differently to power on this roleplay server. The spells here universally are given a grace amount of time in addition to the time that is usually in the source - default NWN is hour/level, the source material is minute per level, on this server it's 1 hour, + minute/level.

Not everyone types or reacts at the same speed, P&P can be paused for people. If you have a group of four level 3s taking thirty seconds to decide what to type and respond each, your animal spell your wizard cast would only have a minute left after everyone is just replying back that they're ready now to face what they just buffed up for.

[DM Sinister]

It's a different animal.

Lol.

Duration is.. handled differently to power on this roleplay server. The spells here universally are given a grace amount of time in addition to the time that is usually in the source - default NWN is hour/level, the source material is minute per level, on this server it's hour + minute/level.

Not everyone types or reacts at the same speed, P&P can be paused for people. If you have a group of four level 3s taking thirty seconds to decide what to type and respond each, your animal spell your wizard cast would only have a minute left after everyone is just replying back that they're ready now to face what they just buffed up for.

No lol about it. The argument I quoted was quite clear. Let us not pick and choose PnP. “End of argument pnp says” - pnp also says our animal buff times are wrong…..

….so you are saying where mechanics do not allow for it or some wiggle room to allow for it (or as you said “grace”): then not adhering to PNP is fine.  The devs have been quite clear on mechanical and artistic changes made as a collective of their team for this reason. You have not “argued” against my point: you have enhanced the point I was making. Lol?.

I always find these “nerf” posts to always be heavily one sided because someone thinks something is over powered. Then the threads point out paladins wizards and sorcs etc. Then we get the posts about “well I recommended a new spell/change/idea but it got shot down because it isn’t like that in PnP. So then people call for pNP to be enforced. However when it’s pointed out all the other areas PNP should be enforced suddenly it’s “grace” to allow players to level, have a sense of power, enjoy the game etc.

You could quite literally predict these threads and make a Venn diagram on the topic. Anyway talking of topics, we’ve gone slightly off topic but it was worth highlighting some of the common “themes.”

[Nezmith]

All you are going accomplish by doing this is eliminating ranged druids from the server.

Agreed. Elemental essences get nerfed = I remake my archer druid into the OP, overdone, and problematic wild shape/control spell spec

Druids could stand to be nerfed, but tackling elemental essences to do that is like trimming weeds instead of pulling them at the root. I think we should generally veer more toward balance than rules as written in any case.

[Yesper]

All you are going accomplish by doing this is eliminating ranged druids from the server.

Agreed. Elemental essences get nerfed = I remake my archer druid into the OP, overdone, and problematic wild shape/control spell spec

Druids could stand to be nerfed, but tackling elemental essences to do that is like trimming weeds instead of pulling them at the root. I think we should generally veer more toward balance than rules as written in any case.

We could also just throw the baby out with the gamer girl bathwater and gate druid behind application. Especially if 1d6 damage and energy resistance per feat after expending limited resources is enough to push druids over the edge balance-wise. Would also keep the uwu at bray, but I digress.

The "going by the book" argument only works if we are applying that rule to everything.

[Dardonas]

We could also just throw the baby out with the gamer girl bathwater and gate druid behind application. Especially if 1d6 damage and energy resistance per feat after expending limited resources is enough to push druids over the edge balance-wise. Would also keep the uwu at bray, but I digress.

The "going by the book" argument only works if we are applying that rule to everything.

I'll be real, I think both Paladins and Druids should be app'd classes.  There is a lot of roleplay responsibility that comes with oaths and playing both classes in this setting and in general.  Not the topic at hand, but it should be something that is considered.  Druids tend to break my immersion in PotM more than any other class.  At least for wizards to break my immersion they have to get to level 17 and spam shapechange.

[Yesper]

We could also just throw the baby out with the gamer girl bathwater and gate druid behind application. Especially if 1d6 damage and energy resistance per feat after expending limited resources is enough to push druids over the edge balance-wise. Would also keep the uwu at bray, but I digress.

The "going by the book" argument only works if we are applying that rule to everything.

I'll be real, I think both Paladins and Druids should be app'd classes.  There is a lot of roleplay responsibility that comes with oaths and playing both classes in this setting and in general.  Not the topic at hand, but it should be something that is considered.  Druids tend to break my immersion in PotM more than any other class.  At least for wizards to break my immersion they have to get to level 17 and spam shapechange.

@emote 26 and grease would like to have a word with you... But yes, a topic for another thread.

[DM Sinister]

We could also just throw the baby out with the gamer girl bathwater and gate druid behind application. Especially if 1d6 damage and energy resistance per feat after expending limited resources is enough to push druids over the edge balance-wise. Would also keep the uwu at bray, but I digress.

The "going by the book" argument only works if we are applying that rule to everything.

I'll be real, I think both Paladins and Druids should be app'd classes.  There is a lot of roleplay responsibility that comes with oaths and playing both classes in this setting and in general.  Not the topic at hand, but it should be something that is considered.  Druids tend to break my immersion in PotM more than any other class.  At least for wizards to break my immersion they have to get to level 17 and spam shapechange.

Agree it is mostly druids that break the immersion, running around as “dogs” to have their “bellies rubbed”. But not all druids are like that and with this hard core proposed change you are going to remove aspects from druids who don’t use wildshape and rp archers (for example) forcing them to only play as shape shifters. It’s quite the double edged sword. You find druids break your immersion but you wish to also only limit druid builds to wildshape builds.

[zDark Shadowz]

You have not “argued” against my point: you have enhanced the point I was making. Lol?.

Probably because I don't mind either way whether durations are actually reduced or not, or if elemental essence stops stacking.

The durations of the spells have been brought closer to P&P, but they aren't the same. Should they be the same? Probably. Classes probably shouldn't have all these extra bonus feats either. I know grease duration was reduced from D&D further during a time that I was casting it extended anyway excessively, and even with its duration reduction it didn't change how serviceable it was to use for where I was using it.

There's a lot thats in line with P&P and lots of D&D content that is here that wasn't in the base game, and there's a lot that isn't, like combat strike.

So all I can do is laugh at it and use whats in the game until it isnt, and when its not I'll use something else that will have equivalency.

The rest of my post was just letting you know why the duration was set to how it was as had been discussed probably elsewhere on the forums, and in discord in the past. The extra time is there because people take too long to roleplay.

I'm all for people rushing dungeons because of a sense of time urgency, personally, and I'm sure if wizards need more time they'll just cast it extended and your level 10 wizard throws around 20 minute animal buff spells instead and they'll have all the time they need. A level 3 wizard would just have to wait till level 5 until they could cast animal spells that'll last as long as they need it to, or cast far more appropriately and carefully instead of buff & bash (which I am all for).

I really dont mind, making a game work regardless of the rules is part of the fun.

When elemental essence stops stacking, if rebuilds are made then I get to have my cheetah speed that I neglected to take to arrow kite things better indefinitely, and see if primeval stuff adds to air elemental shape, take elephants hide for 2 more AC and afford to etc etc.

[noah25]

We could also just throw the baby out with the gamer girl bathwater and gate druid behind application. Especially if 1d6 damage and energy resistance per feat after expending limited resources is enough to push druids over the edge balance-wise. Would also keep the uwu at bray, but I digress.

The "going by the book" argument only works if we are applying that rule to everything.

I'll be real, I think both Paladins and Druids should be app'd classes.  There is a lot of roleplay responsibility that comes with oaths and playing both classes in this setting and in general.  Not the topic at hand, but it should be something that is considered.  Druids tend to break my immersion in PotM more than any other class.  At least for wizards to break my immersion they have to get to level 17 and spam shapechange.

I'm not sure putting a core class behind an application makes a lot of sense. There are definitely immersion issues (with all classes) but especially with ones with strict alignemnt restrictions. Monks, paladins, druids, etc. However, it seems to me a better solution is to discourage it as a community of roleplayers to discourage the behavior IC, not to lock classes that have been standard since first edition behind apps.

[DM Sinister]

As pointed out earlier and in other threads - players will always find the "next meta" when something becomes nerfed.

My point is there is no clarity to the argument of this thread. Looking through the thread:

Is it that it needs to fall in line with PnP? -but then we allow other non-things PnP to exist.

Is it that it its OP? Well this is then against the above and no proposed solution offered aside from "It must follow PnP"

So should it follow PnP? - but we have grace for other things but we can do it for this? WHY? Why target this? which leads too.....

Other classes are OP - This comes up as a defence for and against. Paladins are OP so why pick on Druids? Paladins are OP and should be nerfed like druids.
Now its classes in general are op? - Lets proposed radical solutions of PRC locking without thinking it through.

No, PNP says its ONE. End of argument - End argument? What? Ah, ideas put forward were rejected because of PNP so we MUST adhere to PNP but only in niche cases and not for everything. Biased has entered the chat.

But also druids break my immersion - How did we get from broken PNP, to OP, to no wiggle room even though there is for others to now druids break immersion? Anyway, forcing druids to only be wild shape does not help with that.

So you see - there is no clarity to this argument. Its a mess. Its a knee jerk reaction because a person thinks it needs to change. These threads always bring those who agree with the "OP" to the lime light and it presents itself as though that's the representation of the majority of the player base. What is the end goal here?

The Devs and DMs have a much greater insight into the workings of the server than you or I, anyone for that matter. They see what players are doing, what abilities and spells they use. What classes are built and what dungeons people run. They look at the exploits and they patch them. These things take time and effort from a team that has to consider the bigger picture. The bigger picture being: How will this effect the server.

No where in this thread has anyone provided a layout of the problem, a proposed change, how that will impact the server and players as whole. There is a fine balance between HARDCORE and FUN. The server still needs to be enjoyable. There are lots of things to make it hard core as it is. What will this do?  As some have pointed out there are other Druids than Wildshape druids that exist because of these elemental feats; archers being the more common. By removing these feats you limit what a player can and can not do [side note: It requires four feats to get all these. THATS A LOT].  You are forcing Druids to only be wildshape builds - which seems against the spirit of an RP server where you can be and play what you want.

Further more, the argument druids break immersion - well this sounds like an RP issue than a FEAT/OP class issue. Perhaps we, the community, should focus on education and resource building to help new players understand what it means to be a Druid, support them and guide them so that they don't make the mistakes of the past immersion breaking druids. We as a community have failed in that sense - by allowing the immersion breaking to happen we set a standard. New players will see it and think "ah that's how to RP a druid". So let that sink in for a moment - is this an immersion and RP issue? If it is not then why use it as a counter argument and if it is what does it have to do with the original argument to being with?

The Dev team work on Ravenloft as a project - they very rarely, if at all, make large sweeping changes without thinking it through, discussion, debate, testing and all the while providing alternatives and solutions. We as players do not see that nor consider it. We in effect, want our cake and want to eat theirs too.

Now on the topic of other classes: Why bring this up at all? If its an overall balancing issue then why not discuss everything as a whole, why try and justify something just because something else is possible? It muddies the water and the original argument.

On the topic of RP and immersion: Where do we draw the line with this? Technically speaking Barovia has a fear of magic and yet there are potion sellers in the outskirts most days. What doesn't scream "witch" than the image of you over a cauldron brewing unnatural potions that can make skin like stone or turn you invisible? Should we not police this in the outskirts? No? If we are to say Druid RP needs work, well there are plenty of other RP sectors that need work too.

So call me confused because reading through the thread I honestly do not know if its broken, Overpowered, immersion breaking, RP breaking, not following PNP or just a moan because one can. It can not be a PNP issue if you are prepared to allowed "grace" for everything else. It can not be Overpowered if it requires: 4 feats plus the wildshape feat that is unlocked at level 5. It is not immersion breaking - it is the playing that broken.

These threads are always the same.

You can not just pick something out and shout "it doesn't follow PNP", then ignore when other non-PNP examples are given. Then switch the argument to immersion breaking and flop back to other classes being OP then back to the "it doesn't follow PNP because I had things rejected because they didn't follow PNP". This isn't a "one rule for them and one rule for another" - its simply: How will this affect players and will they still enjoy the class/server etc.

[Maffa]

...

It-s not that i dont agree with you, but i believe the discourse about Rp issues and and putting the class behind an application is because since the class is that OP it attracts the kind of power players that tend to also break immersion, plus someone said before that it is not possible barring the stacking for engine limitations.

This is what I understood.

[Yesper]

That is a good synopsis of the last few replies, yes. The only question that really remains is "will there be a change?"

Personally, I doubt it as there is a reason the feats were implemented in their current state. If I am wrong, I have additional questions.

[Zyemeth]

I watched a shifted bear fade to black with a summoned dire bear in the middle of MC. That's all the argument I need to agree app'd druids isn't a terrible idea.

[Yesper]

I watched a shifted bear fade to black with a summoned dire bear in the middle of MC. That's all the argument I need to agree app'd druids isn't a terrible idea.

That is both hilarious and horrifying. And likely something to screenshot and send to a DM. Fading to black with ones' own summons does nothing for the story/setting and is wildly inappropriate.

[Maffa]

As i would agree that "classes with jobs" would need a special attention to their RP (paladins, clerics, druids, etc) since they are linked both to their duty as well as with the specific way Ravenloft modifies the vanilla forgotten realms class, I would be wary to gatekeep classes for Rp reasons. RP lapses happen to anyone, and we as a community should work to help our fellow players by directing them to the right resources.

As much as it pains me seeing some druids that should be stoic AND in pain for the state of affairs of nature and balance in the Lands of the Mists and instead play clown in MC or outskirts and solo dungeons for whatever reason, preventing people to learn how to properly play one would diminish factions like Degawnny for example, which should be the place to go and learn out to play a proper druid (i think, never played one but thats the idea i got).

If they Rp'ed proper druids, no one would care if they really are that OP, because they wouldnt solo dungeons and go back as dire bears to Djordj with all the stuff to sell in the first place. Maybe rather than nerf elemental damages one should limit the quantity of gold and wealth one druid would care to keep, since trees dont need gold 

[Last Exit to Barovia]

I would to remind everyone that this thread's stated purpose is to discuss Elemental Essence and not placing applications on base classes or roleplay suggestions. There is certainly an opportunity to create a new thread on that subject if desired, but I think it would benefit us to stick to the topic of the thread.

[Maffa]

it has already been answered that this is a Beamdog bug and that devs can do nothing about it. As far as the topic strictly goes, it's over.

[Yesper]

I would to remind everyone that this thread's stated purpose is to discuss Elemental Essence and not placing applications on base classes or roleplay suggestions. There is certainly an opportunity to create a new thread on that subject if desired, but I think it would benefit us to stick to the topic of the thread.

This is a reminder that gating druid specifically because of perceived power is a point that came up as a direct result of the original conversation. The RP burden of playing the class is a natural extension of that point, even if tangential. It would also benefit us to discuss additional reasons for possible solutions brought up.

[gotesu]

A little 2 cent concerning the OP

IMHO the resistance bypassing of elemental essence is a -good thing- as mid-high lvl characters will de facto have resistance to elemental dmg thanks to enchanted gear, add to that the fact that many critters have elemental immunities which all converge to make the feats not worth their high cost if they werent bypassing resistances.

It would make sense for them not to stack though, maybe raise the dmg to 2d6 and make it unstackable - allowing for each druid to have a ‘chosen element’ but still offering a significent dmg boost to not completely ruin non-shifting druids.

[SevenStormStyle]

I watched a shifted bear fade to black with a summoned dire bear in the middle of MC. That's all the argument I need to agree app'd druids isn't a terrible idea.

 Being a troll or pervert is not remotely class dependent. Perhaps druid abilities are what led to this particular set up being possible, but I really hope this was meant to be hyperbole because every "unusual" class feature you can possibly imagine has been abused at some point or other for the purpose of cheese and/or smut, and it should be dealt with accordingly on the individual basis rather than acting like on the *default* that people playing a fantasy game are too immature to do just that - handle fantasy elements.

Apologies for the digression. I do agree that there's not much to do at this point but wait and see how the devs feel about their implementation of the specific feat at hand.

[Revenant]

Going to split this post into three parts.

First: Let's not start broadly accusing classes of encouraging bad RP. It's an individual thing, and often done innocently. Clerics have been less priest and more vagabond with Hammer of God, plenty of Paladins have committed atrocities with full OOC belief that they were acting Lawful Good, Barbarians have acted as the devoted servants of Civilized Law, Monks have been inconsistent anarchists - if there is a "mistake" to be made for a class, it's been made, and if there's a way to make a class weird, it's been done thrice. Druid's takes the form of animals, but most classes have the potential to be memetic or uncomfortable.

Things have gotten a lot better and people a lot more serious over the years, so if you see something, say something. Seriously, send in reports. Please. Preferably with screenshots, but without is at least something, too. There are like three active DMs at any given time for the teeming masses, and I am almost certain they're usually occupied doing something they enjoy rather than happening to catch Smokey the Bear getting hot in the forests.

---
Second: The chances of a base class becoming application locked are, as I understand, about as good as a vault wipe. It's not really worth talking about.

---
Third: The meat and potatoes. Balance discussion!

Archer druids get use out of casually slapping 4d6 damage onto their bows. So do Shapeshifters, and casters who are forced to fight in melee (because shapeshift lets them), and odd druids who enjoy doing things like picking up a scythe and enjoying +4d6 on x4 crits. Arguably the shifters and weird weapon cases will get better use out of it, too.

I do not think Zen Archery druid, an archetype that was alive and well as far back as in 2008 before being able to add 14 average damage to each shot, will suddenly be rendered unplayable by the change. Owl's Insight is potent, you can extract plenty of Mighty bonus via Bull's, Ram's, and Aura of Vitality, and you don't need to forsake any of your casting potential for so doing. You won't hit the highs of an arcane archer, a martial almost entirely dedicated to combat, but the AA also won't be casting Stonehold and Creeping Doom before unloading arrows, or popping a cheeky Heal when things get dicey.

A single additional 1d6 that stacks with varnishes, enchantments, and weapon properties is still strong. On average, it's the equivalent of someone using Divine Might with 16 Charisma. That's typically worth spending a feat (two, because of Power Attack) on already.

If we think Paladins or Sorcerers (I'd say wizards first, since Sorc only shines post-14 and come with skill, feat, and RP frustrations) or any other class need to be nerfed, that should be brought up in its own thread. It shouldn't be used to argue whataboutism for Druids. Personally I think most classes are either fine (yes, even the casters) or too weak (late-game pure rogues, assassin at all points) with some exceptional cases - one of those cases being Druid, who were fine even before they received a plethora of unique, powerful extra uses for their wildshape.

I think build diversity is great! It's part of the reason I don't like the idea of nerfing some classes - Paladin for example is already widely considered to be pigeonholed into one of two builds - but there's really nothing stopping Druids from just doing everything except an individual player's choice not to press the "bear" button for RP reasons. A Bow druid can also cast and also passably melee, a caster druid can also passably melee, a shifter druid can also powerfully cast. All of them are the best spotter on the server unless the player actively chooses to disregard spot, able to easily catch even geared stealthers at or slightly above their level without needing to find the incredibly rare spot gear.

They're not a weak class. They weren't before they received an outpouring of love through custom feats. 11.5 average damage is not what makes or breaks a Druid, but in my opinion it is part of what pushes them past the point of being reasonable in comparison to everyone else.

[noah25]

Going to split this post into three parts.

First: Let's not start broadly accusing classes of encouraging bad RP. It's an individual thing, and often done innocently. Clerics have been less priest and more vagabond with Hammer of God, plenty of Paladins have committed atrocities with full OOC belief that they were acting Lawful Good, Barbarians have acted as the devoted servants of Civilized Law, Monks have been inconsistent anarchists - if there is a "mistake" to be made for a class, it's been made, and if there's a way to make a class weird, it's been done thrice. Druid's takes the form of animals, but most classes have the potential to be memetic or uncomfortable.

Things have gotten a lot better and people a lot more serious over the years, so if you see something, say something. Seriously, send in reports. Please. Preferably with screenshots, but without is at least something, too. There are like three active DMs at any given time for the teeming masses, and I am almost certain they're usually occupied doing something they enjoy rather than happening to catch Smokey the Bear getting hot in the forests.

---
Second: The chances of a base class becoming application locked are, as I understand, about as good as a vault wipe. It's not really worth talking about.

---
Third: The meat and potatoes. Balance discussion!

Archer druids get use out of casually slapping 4d6 damage onto their bows. So do Shapeshifters, and casters who are forced to fight in melee (because shapeshift lets them), and odd druids who enjoy doing things like picking up a scythe and enjoying +4d6 on x4 crits. Arguably the shifters and weird weapon cases will get better use out of it, too.

I do not think Zen Archery druid, an archetype that was alive and well as far back as in 2008 before being able to add 14 average damage to each shot, will suddenly be rendered unplayable by the change. Owl's Insight is potent, you can extract plenty of Mighty bonus via Bull's, Ram's, and Aura of Vitality, and you don't need to forsake any of your casting potential for so doing. You won't hit the highs of an arcane archer, a martial almost entirely dedicated to combat, but the AA also won't be casting Stonehold and Creeping Doom before unloading arrows, or popping a cheeky Heal when things get dicey.

A single additional 1d6 that stacks with varnishes, enchantments, and weapon properties is still strong. On average, it's the equivalent of someone using Divine Might with 16 Charisma. That's typically worth spending a feat (two, because of Power Attack) on already.

If we think Paladins or Sorcerers (I'd say wizards first, since Sorc only shines post-14 and come with skill, feat, and RP frustrations) or any other class need to be nerfed, that should be brought up in its own thread. It shouldn't be used to argue whataboutism for Druids. Personally I think most classes are either fine (yes, even the casters) or too weak (late-game pure rogues, assassin at all points) with some exceptional cases - one of those cases being Druid, who were fine even before they received a plethora of unique, powerful extra uses for their wildshape.

I think build diversity is great! It's part of the reason I don't like the idea of nerfing some classes - Paladin for example is already widely considered to be pigeonholed into one of two builds - but there's really nothing stopping Druids from just doing everything except an individual player's choice not to press the "bear" button for RP reasons. A Bow druid can also cast and also passably melee, a caster druid can also passably melee, a shifter druid can also powerfully cast. All of them are the best spotter on the server unless the player actively chooses to disregard spot, able to easily catch even geared stealthers at or slightly above their level without needing to find the incredibly rare spot gear.

They're not a weak class. They weren't before they received an outpouring of love through custom feats. 11.5 average damage is not what makes or breaks a Druid, but in my opinion it is part of what pushes them past the point of being reasonable in comparison to everyone else.

Agree completely with one and two not with three. Druids IMO are fairly on par with where they were before the 3.5 shift. When that shift happened they lost spell resistance as a spell which is huge. They picked up the new druid feats which I felt made them above average, addy was implemented and they dropped back to average as addy is quite the step up from steel and any druid equivalent is too rare to be considered for discussion purposes. They also removed all the best druid spell slot gear, which I dont think was the wrong call, but is a significant contributor to balance.

In regards to the 14+ sorcerer debate when I consider balance it all about where you end up. In my experience anything outside of salt mines doesn't require an exceptional party or character to maneuver. When you can explode everything on and stop time im a little less worried about what my parry is. So, to me I see it as level 20 vs level 20 and in that regard I dont think druids have a noticeable advantage over most other classes. I would agree rogues are weak in PVE but they are also PVP superstars and you cant adventure without one. No one looks around and says guys we cant leave, we don't have a druid. They do with clerics mages and rogues for a reason. I would agree druids make very good mid level characters largely due to Wildshape I, but in the grand scheme that feels insignifcant to me.


In regards to the detection arguement. Yes, you can make your druid  very good at spotting but this feels like the same arguement people make against bards to me.  Druids get lots of good feats but not very many of them. In order for a druid to get the spot level you are refering to the 4d6 elemental essence arguement isnt relevant. They wont have the feats or the wildshape charge uses to sustain all of it at one time. I agree druids give more diverse options than most classes. Likewise with bards, its part of what I find draws me to them because no two druids are built the same. I think we get tied up in thinking that because we see druids do all these things that one character possesses all of them. I'll use my character as an example.

Frido was good at casting and tanking. Her damage output was horrible and she didn't even have zen archery. I won't speak for the others but I can also assure you Frido couldn't spot a dragon that was four feet in front of her. Defnitely not a level 20 rogue.

Edit: Please do not speak of the builds of others in future. Consider this a fair heads up.

[Swan]

Druids are fine. They're strong, but who cares?  They're not OP. Not a single class in this server is OP. Some are definitely stronger than others, but the solution is probably to buff the weaker classes. Nerfing Druids isn't going to make another class that is garbage less garbage.