Elemental Essence Bugged (?)

[Vissy]

I feel like this discussion is going into some very unfair directions, where powerbuilds and very specific examples are used as examples of the norm. 'Can' doesn't translate to 'does'.

[Dardonas]

I feel like this discussion is going into some very unfair directions, where powerbuilds and very specific examples are used as examples of the norm. 'Can' doesn't translate to 'does'.

This isn't about powerbuilt druids.  I've seen a druid with a completely unoptimized build succeed, and I wouldn't say they are the creme de la creme of mechanics.  I'm talking Druids with points in charisma with the ability to solo Perfidus and the Mist Dragon, soloing other dungeons and hitting things with massive AB and insane amounts of additional damage on top of high strength bonuses and large damage die.

[PrimetheGrime]

I feel like this discussion is going into some very unfair directions, where powerbuilds and very specific examples are used as examples of the norm. 'Can' doesn't translate to 'does'.

This isn't about powerbuilt druids.  I've seen a druid with a completely unoptimized build succeed, and I wouldn't say they are the creme de la creme of mechanics.

As Dardonas says, there's really not much to making a strong druid. As long as you gave wis for days you'll be top tier

[Clausawks]

Currently speaking from experience within various servers, utilizing the class for both PvP & PvE content. I can attest to the fact, that they are strong indeed. But as it currently stands; apart from having 4d6 Damage which bypasses all laden resistances? they can apply a varnish and weapon spell as well from what I have seen to really 'oomp' those damage numbers.

While I am a big fan of druids? I took the liberty to build one myself and can say they have a generous and ample amount of wiggle room without the need for the stacking damage bonus of '4d6'. I would not mind the feat being brought more in line with what is appropriate by PnP standards as per the cited source. But as it currently stands:

Spoiler: show

-Bonus Damage
-Sneak Immunity/Crit Immunity
-Freedom Of Movement (Partial, Wildland Stride)
-Highest Natural AC Buff
-Highest Spot Gain
-Very versatile class. Caster/Melee/Ranged.

These are a lot of boons going into one class especially one that gets several benefits that someone else would have to take as a PRC applied class would and the feats themselves are cool? don't get me wrong. But - it would do the class some good to not be the 'be all, end all' of everything.

[Kaninchen]

I would assume it was a choice made like several other design choices, such as how most animal wards are supposed to last a few rounds, and not minutes/hours.

[Edward]

Elemental essences are really nasty, because they completely ignore all DR and immunities, much like the Divine Might divine damage that paladin's have. You can literally kill ghosts, as a druid, because their elemental damage ignores the DR that player spirits have.

[McNastea]

Does the added dmg bypass normal resistances the enemy might have? Like you add 5 fire dmg and even if the enemy has /5 fire resist it still hits for full dmg, or does it just all stack together like a really bad ass spelll or varnish?

[zDark Shadowz]

Finally, it's insulting to be accused of doctoring screenshots. The feat's full description is readily googled.

Just pointing out that it is pretty comical that it cut off at the point you wanted to discuss, that's all, it's not an attack, don't worry.

I will miss it when it changes though, I can't argue with the source material.

[McNastea]

I legitimately want to know the answer to my question. There is a big difference between bypassing DR and dealing dmg that something can't resist.

[zDark Shadowz]

It goes past it directly.

Like divine favor, might, and other spells that apply damage to all kinds of attacks, it uses the "EffectDamageIncrease" function that bypasses resistances. If something had divine resistance, you'd still be able to slap it around with divine might, but not with Bane Bow.

All the fun quirks of it are in the link below, there's not really a cleaner way to script applying damage to all kinds of attacks.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Damage_increase

Further, cold damage from Elemental Essence will stack with the cold damage from Frost Weapon, though the frost weapon part will still be subject to the usual resistances & immunities.

It does also work adversely too. Elemental Essence Fire isn't going to do bonus damage on things usually vulnerable to fire.

[McNastea]

Well if it's bypassing dmg resistances then I'm entirely behind fixing that.

[Derek Jeter]

Nerfing elemental essence will ruin unique druid builds such as archers and melee weapon druids, but shapeshifters will still be strong, I'd leave it.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

There is unfortunately nothing we can do about the DR thing, its a Bioware/Beamdog bug.

[Chaoshawk]

I play a level 20 druid and I agree that the essence stacking is incredibly powerful. I would suggest elemental essence be one feat that allows you to choose one element that way it remains a powerful feature that only requires one feat investment if it is nerfed. In will shape a dire polar bear can crit nearly as well as weapon masters while being crit immune with oaken resilience, having 30+ AB, and having very good AC and HP. I think if it were removed I would just transmutation spell focuses alongside my conjuration ones.

[SevenStormStyle]

It could alternatively possibly just have its charge per use upped to two like Elephant's Hide. This would allow characters to simply now have to choose which of their WS based abilities they want to prioritize per rest.

Quick edit to explain my thinking here:

In my experience, for a high level druid (the ones with which most of the OP concern rests) elemental essence does not last the entire rest cycle. So if you cannot finish your dungeon before all of your regular wards fade, you must use it twice. If the cost was higher, a druid with all four feats would have to choose if they want to have 2d6 damage consistently, or have 4d6 in the beginning and risk finishing out with no bonus damage at all for the equivalent amount of WS used. Additionally, bow druids (which seems to be weaker in the concensus of this thread's posts) would be less penalized by higher charge price than melee druids, since they don't have as much reliance on the defensive WS feats.

[Yesper]

With wild shape charges being either incredibly limited or feat-taxed out the nose, I'd advise against it. By the time druids would be able to use all four, they have much better options for damage output with far less effort required.

[Vissy]

Unless you take Extra Wild-Shape, using all 4 of them is going to take 4/6 of a Druid's wild shape uses - and they last for 10 minutes, which is less than what it takes to complete a single dungeon, usually. Even with Extra Wild-Shape, it only allows you to apply all four Elemental Essences twice, for a total runtime of 20 minutes, and that means not using any other Wild Shape feats.

[Maffa]

with a little waiting time it is usually enough to backtrack a little and rest though.

[Last Exit to Barovia]

I am uncertain if the issue is one of balance, though from an outside perspective using more than one at once (especially when the resistance override cannot be fixed) seems like cheesing. However, my opinion is what the devs intend for it to be. If RAW is the basis of the feat, I would argue that they should not stack. If there is another reason for them to have been made to stack I would be curious as to the decision logic therein.

[noah25]

If you're building an "optimal" Druid right now you take all the elemental essences.

Increasing every hit's damage by a d6 for a single feat is already worthwhile. Being able to take that same feat 4 times, increasing it to 4d6 is extremely powerful.

Damage that, at time of writing, bypasses all forms of elemental resistance. It's effectively divine damage.

I don't know why Druid bow damage is being compared to classes that don't get full caster progression alongside their shooting.

As for roleplaying mastery over the elements, the class has a great many elemental spells.

Finally, it's insulting to be accused of doctoring screenshots. The feat's full description is readily googled.

As someone who has played two druids since this feat has been released one at  level 20 pure druid and one multiclassed at level 12, I think your assumption here is flawed. It is a significant feat drain to take all four and I haven't opted to either time as you give up feats  that are critical to tanking in higher level dungeons, improved knockdown, metamagic, spell penetration etc. Assuming a druid needs to take all of these to be optimally powered is a misconception. Yes, you will do the most damage this way but its at the expense of flexibility, durability, and combat casting effectively.  Mostly what the stacking elemental essences do is make a zen archery druid serviceable which previously they weren't.

I do think druids are one of the more powerful classes on the game but if you are going to rebalance them Paladin and sorcerrer are going to have to be on the chopping block also. A smart level 20 paladin or sorcerrer kills a level 20 druid every time.

[PrimetheGrime]

As someone who has played two druids since this feat has been released one at  level 20 pure druid and one multiclassed at level 12, I think your assumption here is flawed. It is a significant feat drain to take all four and I haven't opted to either time as you give up feats  that are critical to tanking in higher level dungeons, improved knockdown, metamagic, spell penetration etc. Assuming a druid needs to take all of these to be optimally powered is a misconception. Yes, you will do the most damage this way but its at the expense of flexibility, durability, and combat casting effectively.  Mostly what the stacking elemental essences do is make a zen archery druid serviceable which previously they weren't.

I do think druids are one of the more powerful classes on the game but if you are going to rebalance them Paladin and sorcerrer are going to have to be on the chopping block also. A smart level 20 paladin or sorcerrer kills a level 20 druid every time.

Before we start putting "Paladin and Sorcerer on the chopping block", Paladin has already recieved a nerf. Sorcerer isn't even close to how powerful even a mid levelled druid is. I can name on one hand how many classes can solo most of the content on the server and paladin aint on the list. Druid has the capability as well as increasing their stats exponentially with one wild shape let alone elemental essences. At the end of the day, we can't fix the current bug with Elemental Essence as it requires Beamdogs input.

[Nemesis 24]

I do think druids are one of the more powerful classes on the game but if you are going to rebalance them Paladin and sorcerrer are going to have to be on the chopping block also. A smart level 20 paladin or sorcerrer kills a level 20 druid every time.

Lets not misdirect into other classes having balance issues, this is addressing a clear misrepresentation of the pen and paper ruling this used. 

Besides that, sorceror and paladin have significant weaknesses.  A paladin is practically incapable of detection (and holy sword was nerfed in its dispel, hard) and sorceror has a much more limited spell selection.  The druid has a *lot* and it doesn't need this on top of that.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Frankly it looks like a bug/oversight to me. But I guess we'll wait to hear from the Devs.

[Dardonas]

It comes down to this: we either implement things based on PnP or we don't.  Every time I have suggested a change, I have had the book quoted at me if it was something even slightly different from what's in the source material.  Unless we're picking and choosing when we follow PnP and when we don't, in which case I have a bunch of Hexblade buffs I'd like to propose.

End of argument: PnP says one can be active at a time.

[noah25]

I do think druids are one of the more powerful classes on the game but if you are going to rebalance them Paladin and sorcerrer are going to have to be on the chopping block also. A smart level 20 paladin or sorcerrer kills a level 20 druid every time.

Lets not misdirect into other classes having balance issues, this is addressing a clear misrepresentation of the pen and paper ruling this used. 

Besides that, sorceror and paladin have significant weaknesses.  A paladin is practically incapable of detection (and holy sword was nerfed in its dispel, hard) and sorceror has a much more limited spell selection.  The druid has a *lot* and it doesn't need this on top of that.

Its not misdirection. Most of this thread is arguing it should be changed for balance when there are other classes that IMO, are far stronger.