Author Topic: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?  (Read 1951 times)

Dardonas

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Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« on: December 31, 2021, 10:01:15 AM »
So, here again with another controversial take.  But, I personally am not a fan of Gothic Earth as a setting in my fantasy D&D.  I have seen concepts that I really like from there, and when they are good they are really good.  But, I've also seen some character concepts that have aimed to bring the worst parts of real life into a place that many people use as an escape from such things.

Here are my issues when it comes to Gothic Earth characters, in order:

- Real life religions being portrayed in a fantasy setting
- Real life stereotypes in a fantasy setting
- Real life bigotry portrayed in a fantasy setting

Gothic Earth has been able to be used as a means to portray some of the worst and most ill-gotten parts of our culture.  I know some of it ends up constituting into rulebreaks and bans, but lately I just see certain concepts and think "what is this really adding to roleplay?"  I do not like seeing skin-based racism in roleplay, anti-LGBT religions, stereotypes of certain cultures and groups.  And that sort of roleplay comes exclusively from one setting.  When you bring real-life into roleplay and conflict, it's inevitably going to cause some hurt feelings.

And I'm not saying I hate all Gothic Earth characters.  I've seen some really well-done concepts.  But those are the exception and not the rule.

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2021, 10:02:24 AM »
I would be fine with this.

Vissy

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2021, 10:04:57 AM »
Completely agreed.
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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2021, 10:09:33 AM »
Agree because there sometimes seems to be a misunderstanding re: whether or not Gothic Earth characters speak common and I have seen some Gothic Earth characters having difficulty with the language system.  I like putting this behind the velvet rope as an advanced concept.  Thank you
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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2021, 10:12:43 AM »
I have many issues with real life religions and cultures being portrayed on our fantasy / Horror D&D platform as well.  But another point I want to add is a game design one.

Gothic Earth characters, as implemented on the module are a parasitic design.  Most Gothic Earth characters can't even interact with other Gothic Earth characters unless they started as a group concept.  The breadth of languages, and the lack of having common as a language starting out brings about a very exclusive roleplay that has become unbearably tired. 

On a much more personal note.  I'm a gay man in the southern US.  My experience with certain religions has left me with very intense feelings that I very much struggle ignoring.  We have a global community, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has intense feelings of something real-life based one way or another.  I shouldn't have to face, talk about, mention, or deal with any of that in horror D&D leisure time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 10:16:27 AM by Favee »
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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2021, 10:16:04 AM »
Over the years we've only ever had a handful (and some recently unfortunately) problematic Gothic Earth characters, and those have been handled by the DM team. We try to minimize as much as possible the use of applications since they both limit people's creativity and add more work to the DM team.

Ravenloft, and Gothic Earth, touch on some very delicate and dark real world themes, and we trust our playerbase to handle them with care. 99% of the time people do that and treat such subjects maturely, and we deal with the 1% who don't.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 10:44:37 AM by EO »

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2021, 10:21:14 AM »
I also agree that Gothic Earth characters should be locked behind an application, given all the baggage and responsibility that comes with those portrayals. Playing one correctly is in my opinion possibly more difficult and laden with responsibility than say a tiefling or aasimar is, yet these are locked behind an app, while gothic earth characters are not.

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2021, 10:42:34 AM »
I respectfully disagree.  The main reason being, a good majority of the settings/religions/cultures within the Ravenloft Core domains display all of the same characteristics you just described per their canon lore.  I'm not sure what the difference is then.  If your concern is over the quality of RP and thus requiring an application that I can get behind.  But if it's purely to eliminate some of the darker and low points of humanity, the setting as a whole doesn't lend to that.  I do recall a point when playing a native Barovian a long time ago required an application.  But I mostly agree with EO in that the majority of people will be reasonable RPers and strike a good balance between realism and the enjoyment of others.

Favee

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2021, 10:56:13 AM »
Over the years we've only ever had a handful (and some recently unfortunately) problematic Gothic Earth characters, and those have been handled by the DM team. We try to minimize as much as possible the use of applications since they both limit people's creativity and add more work to the DM team.

Ravenloft, and Gothic Earth, touch on some very delicate and dark real world themes, and we trust our playerbase to handle them with care. 99% of the time people do that and treat such subjects maturely, and we deal with the 1% who don't.

Perhaps we're seeing this from different vantage points. But during this New character event alone, there have been numerous of what I would consider pretty blatant meme-level or offensive portrayals from Gothic Earth characters.
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apeppertoo

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2021, 10:59:52 AM »
I don't agree with this either. I think people are mature enough to understand that portrayal is not endorsement. We accept similar things with DMs, AMPCs, and evil PCs. The subjects being complained about in this thread are no different. Unless there's specific accusations that players are using their concepts as a fig leaf to act out, I don't understand the objection.
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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2021, 11:01:43 AM »
I respectfully disagree.  The main reason being, a good majority of the settings/religions/cultures within the Ravenloft Core domains display all of the same characteristics you just described per their canon lore.  I'm not sure what the difference is then.  If your concern is over the quality of RP and thus requiring an application that I can get behind.  But if it's purely to eliminate some of the darker and low points of humanity, the setting as a whole doesn't lend to that.  I do recall a point when playing a native Barovian a long time ago required an application.  But I mostly agree with EO in that the majority of people will be reasonable RPers and strike a good balance between realism and the enjoyment of others.

Agreed. 

I see little reason to lock a setting that confers no mechanical advantages to the pc behind an application.

Derek Jeter

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2021, 11:11:51 AM »
I dont personally like throwing real life religions or slurs into the game but I don't hate gothic earth characters unless they are blatantly doing it on purpose or created to hate on people (and thats happened you all know that) 

Theres a pretty good argument to be made GE characters can be more disruptive than most locked subraces in some instances, but I dont dislike it enough to press the issue. I totally understand where the OP and the other is coming from. But I know that'd be more work for the 'council'.

Zyemeth

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2021, 11:15:22 AM »
I would agree with an application lock. FAR more often than not, the characters are not portrayed in a serious or respectful manner. This NCE alone there have been characters numbering in the double digits easily that were portrayed in a bordering on offensive way, playing on caricature stereotypes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 11:30:11 AM by Zyemeth »

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2021, 11:28:01 AM »
I would agree with an application lock. FAR more often than not, the characters are not portrayed in a serious or respectful manner. This NCE alone there have been characters numbering in the double digits easily that were portrayed in a bordering on offense way, playing on caricature stereotypes.

+1

App it.

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2021, 11:30:42 AM »
I'd be fine with either. I don't like applications, but the fact of the matter is that I have seen more than my fair share of, uh... pretty gross and unacceptable Gothic Earth characters get made. Honestly, I have met far more offensive GE characters than ones that are not in the near two years I've been on this server now. I'd like to believe that people are mature enough, but they really aren't.

If the bad eggs are being taken care of and the DMs don't find locking the origin necessary, though, then I guess that's that.

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2021, 11:52:08 AM »
While it would be nice to maybe see it being an app, I get where EO comes from, and others too.

Perhaps there could be some more information added when selecting gothic earth as a background? I've not played a character from GE so I'm not sure what the blurb says, but if there are problems that crop up maybe what is there is not clear enough?

I've always viewed playing a gothic earth character as a sort of hard mode extra as you are unable to begin with the common language.. But pertaining to the original posts with the mentions of anti lgbtq+ and racism based on skin colour.... Well those are things that would find their way into the setting regardless right?

I remember years ago when if your character was gay in dementlieu you had to hide that less it be used against you to ruin your standing in society, and the racism well that's pretty clearly in the source material. Slavery, xenophobia, racism.... Those are things that are part of the settings, ravenloft is full of dark things. We often times forget that it is a setting of terror and horror and madness and all the vile things that people are capable of when pushed. It's in a time setting where the use of anesthesia was unheard of (except maybe dementlieu and lamordia) where people who did not fit in would be tossed into asylums where caliban (aka freaky people with mutations) are deemed lesser and are shunned.

In all of my years on the server I actually think I've only encountered one gothic earth character that was problematic and the dm team dealt with it pretty fast once they were made aware, more than that I've seen some really really well done ones. Perhaps it's not that it needs an application but perhaps a clear cut roleplay guide to help players?
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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2021, 12:06:06 PM »
Just because certain... 'ideologies' are historically accurate, doesn't mean that they need to be brought into the game- and neither do distasteful stereotypes that people have a habit of projecting when playing certain GE characters.

Vissy

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2021, 12:13:50 PM »
I don't personally see what place real-life racism (or real-life racist narratives) have in a fantasy game. If you bring real-life racist narratives into the game, you are being racist. Unfortunately the vast majority of GE characters I have seen have been on the other side of the line between a well-played character and a meme-level / offensive one.
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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2021, 12:24:22 PM »
Racism and witchcraft are both ideologies.
Barovia innately exhibits both of these.

If a player portrays their character accurately by adhering to whatever ideologies their character follows, they should NOT be admonished OOCly for doing so.
And such makes for conflict through RP.

If meme characters show up, this is another matter. Make sure you distinguish between the above and poor RP.

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We've had a character who was part of the holy wars so he had a christian ideology. He called those of other religions heretics, and found witches to be doing the devils work. Something like that. Their character was very authentic feeling and I'm leaving out the majority of their RP which wasn't ideology based.

So are you trying to draw the line that certain ideologies need to be cut out? Certain ideologies that hurt your feelings?
All ideologies are irrational, that's the nature of them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 12:33:50 PM by Rocket »

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2021, 12:29:27 PM »
I would like to suggest another approach as a community. While I do not know what it should or even would entirely look like, I want to suggest that instead of locking a setting behind an application we discuss how we can use dialogue and communication to create the change we would like to see.

I have certainly encountered players in game and let them know via PMs when I find certain dialogue, rhetoric, or characterizations to be ill fitting of the RP that we intend to portray, or when something is immersion breaking or even harmful. I attempt to do so in the most respectful way possible because I believe that communication is what solves and improves such things, not necessarily always app locking or creating more red tape.

Are we above respectfully approaching others? I know that we often stay away from direct confrontation as players because we are not the ones tasked with handling these issues and in the end of the day we are also flawed and not all mediators, but as someone who's passion and daily work involves mediation and growing others through these tools I do know the benefit of them.

Culture is created through action, and most times this action has the most benefit when it comes through healthy dialogue that is inclusive to all, especially those that we want to share such a change in perspective with. How do we include players who some feel might be breaking the rules or pushing the spirit of the RP that is intended in this conversation?

These are just some thoughts. I hope for constructive and positive feedback!

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2021, 12:30:56 PM »
Racism against fantasy races is fine. Bringing IRL racism topics into the game=bad. Distinct difference.

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2021, 12:34:23 PM »
I am honestly against an application for a roleplay difficulty.

My previous character has been a Dominican friar, from the couter-reformation age. I wanted to play with my fellow Chrstians, whom i know since my first character and whom I love deeply, and put a spin of RL old fashioned Catholicism in a contextually D&D setting quasi Chrstian group.
After a few weeks, maybe one month, of RP, i decided to shelf the character, because it was too antagonistic to RL people and issues. That character was an arrow exactly aimed at stuff that people might look for escapism and fun in a videogame, and that corporation lawyers definitely warn writers of games and settings to avoid or skirt at all costs. So i deemed impossible for me to play this character because i would have had to dilute what he was and what he stood for so much he'd be better of as an Ezrite (which in fact turned out to be my actual character).

i trust my fellow gamers they would do the same should they trip on a situation that would make the players (not the characters: the players) uncomfortable.

edit: So, to elaborate on that: one can start a character with Rl prejudices, but one should also be ready not to pivot their characters on those and be ready to shed them as soon as they can learn common. One can be a pirate and keep being a GE pirate in ravenloft too, once they learn that bigotry and other RL stuff have no place in here. If, like in my case, I play a bona fide inquisitor, either be prepared to come to terms with milder resolution, or drop the character altogether.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 12:42:08 PM by Maffa »


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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2021, 12:39:32 PM »
Racism against fantasy races is fine. Bringing IRL racism topics into the game=bad. Distinct difference.

This is my thought as well.  In the context of a fantasy setting I'm a strong supporter of seeing all sorts of tensions including religious and racial.

Real life racist and discriminatory behavior and tropes is not needed to enhance the setting.  It's honestly a bit weird that this is even a discussion but hey this is potm.

That being said, I'd tend to agree with EO that problematic characters and scenarios are pretty swiftly dealt with.  I don't think the chaos of an NCE is a good indication of the normal atmosphere.



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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2021, 12:49:46 PM »
I think people are a little weak and over-stating how bad it is with the whole real-life issues.  Maybe I've got a heart of stone or I've stopped caring, but I haven't really seen it be an issue.

However, I do agree the setting should be app-locked.  Too many people don't really understand how the language barrier for gothic earthers, either what it is or how bad of a thing they just got themselves into.  I think an application would actually really help keep people from falling into this trap.  It doesn't even have to be a 'real' application.  More of a "Are you REALLY sure?"

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Re: Can We Make Gothic Earth Application Only?
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2021, 12:52:58 PM »
Racism against fantasy races is fine. Bringing IRL racism topics into the game=bad. Distinct difference.

This is my thought as well.  In the context of a fantasy setting I'm a strong supporter of seeing all sorts of tensions including religious and racial.

Real life racist and discriminatory behavior and tropes is not needed to enhance the setting.  It's honestly a bit weird that this is even a discussion but hey this is potm.

That being said, I'd tend to agree with EO that problematic characters and scenarios are pretty swiftly dealt with.  I don't think the chaos of an NCE is a good indication of the normal atmosphere.


This.