Shifter Overhaul

[Nostalgia]

Is there any consideration on adapting and implementing Carcerian's "Dynamic Wildshape for Druid and Shifter classes" script from the nwvault?  A crude forum search yields that this has been mentioned before, but I cannot find any response to it. 

I wouldn't consider myself a scripter, and I don't have the time to dedicate to becoming an official Ravenloft developer, but if all it needs is somebody to tweak and balance it, I could be persuaded into putting in that effort... I love shifters, but hate NwN's version of them.

https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/script/dynamic-wildshape-druid-and-shifter-classes-35-pnp-rules-v12

Spoiler: show

Submitted by: Submitted by Carcerian on 2014-06-26 12:18.
Last modified: 2021-02-05 20:24
Author: Carcerian
Version: 1.2
Old Vault Category: scripts
Old Vault ID: 3453
Game: NwN1
Category: Script
Requirements: OC
Language: English
Tags: Carcerian

A complete rewrite of the shifter and druid wildshape ability based of the Pen-and-Paper shifter class rules from Masters of the Wild. The Study Form tool is used to study new wildshape forms, creating a unique item storing the form's information for later recall. The Study Tool may be used to "forget" any old form, deleting them permanently, as well as restoring the shifters original form.

Many options are included, such as PC, DM, gender, level and feat restrictions.

A New form has bonuses based on the original creature's the Physical Abilities (-5 to +12 bonus to Str, Dex and Con), Armor Class, in addition to the Creature's Hide, Natural Attacks and Special Abilities.

Wildshape forms allow the PC the ability to cast spells, use items and change equipment, thus using allowing shifters to choose between their preferred weapon and creatures natural weaponry.

Over 140 Creature Abilities, including Beholder Eyestalks I-X + Burst and Central Eye, Charming Song, Chaos Spittle, Evil Eye, Etherealness, Golem Ranged Slam, Hellfire, Hurl Boulders, Manticore Spikes, Mind Flayer Brain Suck and Psionic Abilities (Lesser Body Adjustment, Inertial Barrier, Mind Blast, Mass Concussion), Shadowblend, Tyrantfog Mist, Auras, Bolt Attacks, Rays, Cones, Breath Weapons, Pulses, Howls, etc.

All abilities use monster scripts when possible, the only shifter class ability used is wyrmling breath.

Beholders have been completed as well, enabling the missing Charm Person, Disintegrate and Sleep Eyestalks (NPCs will use as well, as AI has been reworked to utilize new eyes).

Installation:
1. Import Erf
2. Set Module Events onrest and ondying to shifter_* scripts (or incorporate contents into your existing scripts)
3. Place Study Tool in beginning area

Version 1.1
Added ability to disable all NWN druid forms and shifter forms with a single variable.

Version 1.2

Exploit Fix - Now will remove dynamic form before changing to a standard shifter form.

[MAB77]

It is not in the cards at this time. In a somewhat recent change we already modified shifters to be closer to the "Master of Many Forms" PrC of D&D 3.5.

[remnar]

Shifter received a bit of a overhaul semi-sorta-recently and thats likely as far as the dev team wants to go with it.
I believe part of the reasoning is all those scripts and additions would cause server lag and whatnot.
In addition, it's a PRC only available to one class and putting so much into what is unlikely to be appreciated probably isn't helping.

[Nostalgia]

It is not in the cards at this time. In a somewhat recent change we already modified shifters to be closer to the "Master of Many Forms" PrC of D&D 3.5.

While I do appreciate all the work the DM and dev team put into Ravenloft/PotM, and understand that they are dedicating their personal free time to improve the enjoyment for all players, I still feel like Shifters are not in a good place.  Better, certainly, but both mechanically and RP-wise, there is very little reason to play a shifter over a pure druid - which is what Shifters are currently locked to.

RP-wise, the shifter shapes make no sense or are at least ridiculously niche.  Multiple of them are aberrations and druids are supposed to be against that - never mind the fact that the majority of shapes are never a thematically optimal form.

The only mechanically viable shapes are Bear, Elemental, and Kobold - with everything else being profoundly weaker in all aspects.  Two of those you can get from pure druid without compromising high level spells/utility, and kobold alone is not worth that trade.

Without a doubt the changes shifter received are better than the original, and I am grateful for that (ie. more Wild Shapes + Evershifting), but I believe this script (with moderate editing/balancing), would actually bring them up to a place where they can offer profoundly more RP opportunities while being competitively balanced with other PrC's.

Shifter received a bit of a overhaul semi-sorta-recently and thats likely as far as the dev team wants to go with it.
I believe part of the reasoning is all those scripts and additions would cause server lag and whatnot.
In addition, it's a PRC only available to one class and putting so much into what is unlikely to be appreciated probably isn't helping.

The script can be utilized to make it so Shifters are not limited to Druids only.

In response to the potential increase of lag, there are numerous other contributors that are far more volatile. Also, as you said yourself, this is still a locked PrC, so I doubt it's going to be any worse than the addition of other classes, which Ravenloft is already in favor of (Favored Soul, Beguiler, Hexblade, etc.)

[Ken14]

Shifters also have full BAB progression, so they end up with 4 attacks ( At around lvl 19, but still), eventually, and higher overall Base AB. That's pretty great, in itself.

I'm unsure if the shifter elemental shape also includes weapon properties like other shifter forms, but if it does, that's another thing in their favor.

[Nostalgia]

Shifters also have full BAB progression, so they end up with 4 attacks ( At around lvl 19, but still), eventually, and higher overall Base AB. That's pretty great, in itself.

I'm unsure if the shifter elemental shape also includes weapon properties like other shifter forms, but if it does, that's another thing in their favor.

The full BAB is another thing the devs decided to do to help Shifters, but the goal is to make them more in alignment with their 3.5 setting, and give them better RP and mechanical value.

There is no shifter specific elemental shape - it's just elemental shape, which druids get as well. There's no variation in merging of items between them. 

The proposed script works off of the 3.5 ruleset. 

Spoiler: show

[EO]

Our Shifter is now essentially the Master of Many Forms (and will be renamed accordingly next hak update). Obviously, much like druids, they have a limited number of shapes due to NwN's restrictions. We could add more unique ones but no developer has taken that up.

Script systems available on the vault normally don't work with our own custom systems and often aren't designed with performance in mind. As an example, we got the flintlock script on the vault but we ended up rewriting 90% of it over time.

[Nostalgia]

Our Shifter is now essentially the Master of Many Forms (and will be renamed accordingly next hak update). Obviously, much like druids, they have a limited number of shapes due to NwN's restrictions. We could add more unique ones but no developer has taken that up.

Script systems available on the vault normally don't work with our own custom systems and often aren't designed with performance in mind. As an example, we got the flintlock script on the vault but we ended up rewriting 90% of it over time.

Although I would revel at the notion, I suppose that implementing it with the assumption of having to rewrite 90% of it over time is not a viable request.

While adding more unique forms would be nice, there is still largely the issue of NwN's polymorph script and being incapable of using consumables or unequipping items (namely weapons) for RP value.  The hope was to avoid creating too much work on developers by implementing an already developed script that only primarily requires numbers tweaking for balance.

That said, if the concern is regarding compatibility issues, I assume the only way to determine that is to become a Ravenloft PotM Developer?  I could make no promises, but I would personally take some time scratching my head over trying to make this compatible - if that is an option.

[JustMonika]

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=157.0 <-- Applications are welcome!

[ZanathKariashi]

It's honestly not that bad...they just need to re-arrange things a little bit.

Level 1: Humanoid Shapes (Drow, Kobold, Lizardfolk)
Level 2: Giant Shapes (Troll, Frost Giant, Fire Giant)
Level 3: Monstrous Humanoid Shapes (Harpy, Minotaur, Gargoyle, Medusa)
Level 4: Fey Shapes (Pixie, Nymph) (Could do wyrmling shape here instead as there just aren't many Fey options available).
Level 5: Vermin Shapes (Dire Spider, Giant Stag Beetle, Giant Bombardier Beetle, Giant Wasp)
Level 6: Aberration Shapes (Mind Flayer, Umber Hulk, Drider)
Level 7: Plant Wild Shape (Shambling Mound, Treant, Assassin Vine)
Level 8: Ooze Shapes (Elder Black Pudding, Ochre Jelly, Gelatinous Cube)
Level 9: Elemental Shapes (Elder Air/Fire/Water/Earth Elemental)
Level 10: Dragon Shapes (Red, Blue, Green)


Dragon Shapes would need some tweaking (their damage reduction should be 15/+2 instead of 40/+6, their weapons strike as +2 instead of +6), and their bite weapon deals half the damage it should (supposed to be 4d6 not 2d6), and their SR is supposed to be 28, not 20. Green Dragons have permanent water-breathing. And they need Whirlwind Attack (for tail-sweep) and a special At-will no-SR version of Gust of Wind to represent Wing Buffet. Everything else is correct.

Also unlike common wildshape or polymorph, the MoMF forms DO get the extraordinary qualities of their forms. (I.e. Troll form would have their 5 regen per round for a Shifter/MoMF).

(a lot of these already exist and just need to be moved around to their appropriate abilities).

[aliceofthevoid]

It's honestly not that bad...they just need to re-arrange things a little bit.

(to keep it simple, except for humanoid shape, let's keep them limited to 3-4 forms per ability so you don't need a bunch of nests of modal actions)


Level 1: Humanoid Shapes (Drow, Kobold, Lizardfolk)
...

While I would like to see Shifter get some buffs, I'm not sure giving them what's already their most powerful ability on the first level is the correct move.

[ZanathKariashi]

That's not a buff....it's a correction.

Master of Many Forms does in fact get their humanoid shapes first (and given how limited your choices are, compared to what you COULD be getting instead in P&P) and compared to all the other insane crap they get later, humanoid forms are honestly their weakest additions. (only Vermin shape really comes close to same level of power, and even it's better depending on your circumstances. The Giant Stag Beetle has the same melee damage output as DRAGON FORM (it's melee attack hits as hard as an ancient dragon's bite weapon and it only deals 4 damage less per hit due to lower strength), just without any of the other fancy bells and whistles Dragon Form gets, and Giant Bombardier beetle can fire an acid breath cone at will (doesn't hit that hard, 2d4+2 (save for half), but it's at will and can hit a pretty decent-sized cone, Dire spider is a general purpose form with a potent strength poison and Giant Wasp has a potent Con poison)).

Drow is good vs casters (though Mind-Flayer is better once you get aberration forms), Kobold is a good stealth option and remains useful as nothing else aside for Pixie form really fulfills the same niche, Lizardfolk exists but is outclassed by literally every other form unless you really need poison immunity or a tiny amount of acid or easily by-passed damage reduction. And even that is completely overshadowed by Ooze forms.

Combat-wise the Giant forms at level 2 outclass all of the humanoid forms in combat. (honestly my original concept was to do away with NWN versions entirely and just include a bunch of common player-races plus some of the more common humanoid ecl races, like Drow, but since we've already got a humanoid shape, and they are utter trash compared to everything else the MoMF is supposed to get, I think just using the existing 3 is fine).

since they merge weapons anyway, you could remove all the innate bonuses of the gear and just let them be based on caster's equipped gear properties, that way you're not getting a free +3 sword just for turning into drow form and actually NEED a +3 sword equipped for it to work). (and you could scale the SR by druid/shifter level so you're getting 11+ level like a Drow is supposed to instead of a flat 26)).

-----------------------------------------

Now a reminder, this is more of an organization of abilities and taking stock of what is already included, what needs adding, and what just needs to be moved around and tweaked a bit to have a more authentic MoMF.

Obviously I'm all for tweaking and rebalancing forms that are getting stuff that there's no reason they have it. (i.e. getting rid of the Hide in Plain Sight for the Kobold form, since Kobolds do not have any such ability (they get +1 natural armor, Darkvision, and +2 Search, and Small Stature benefits/penalties. That's it). (the Pixie instead becomes your go-to stealth master once you reach that level).

Getting rid of all equipment benefits for forms use extra equipment that isn't part of their innate racial benefits. (i.e. the magic gear of your forms should be the same as the magic gear you had before then, though I do know that there's issues with property stacking when it comes to merging (i.e. there's no point in wearing gear that buffs the same thing since only the best will be used post-merge and all +AC bonuses will get converted to deflection and won't stack).

But I think that's a small price to pay for how OP a lot of the forms innately are, especially since you can't use Monk-cheese on here.


(i.e. the majority forms that actually need looked as far as gear/stats go are forms equipped with weapons, since that gear should be blank, as it'll inherit the properties of whatever gear the Druid/MoMF had equipped. The main exception is Dragon Form as the last patch of NWN buffed it substantially, though I already covered what needed changing with it (15/+2 DR, 4d6 bite, 28 SR, add water-breathing to green dragon. Everything else is at the level it should be and scales appropriately based on your shifter/druid levels). (and in case you're wondering about their high stats...for comparison, a Frost or Fire Giant, is basically the same strength as an ancient Red Dragon and a level 2 shifter (potentially a level 7 character) could turn into one as they just BARELY meet HD requirements (2x Druid+MoMF level) to do so (well technically you could turn into a Frost Giant and need level 8 for a Fire Giant, but stat-wise they're basically identical except their resistances so there's not really much issue sweating 1d8 HP on a 14d8 vs 15d8 HP total).

Giant form (and Dragon form for that matter) have severe issues with regard to path-finding and the amount of space they take up so you're generally going to use those sparringly or in areas large and open enough to support them, like a lot of the other forms are better for navigating the more tight corridors (i.e. the Minotaur still has a clear use and purpose even though it comes after giant forms, since it's powerful in melee but still small enough to easily navigate around).

[Nostalgia]

Spoiler: show

That's not a buff....it's a correction.

Master of Many Forms does in fact get their humanoid shapes first (and given how limited your choices are, compared to what you COULD be getting instead in P&P) and compared to all the other insane crap they get later, humanoid forms are honestly their weakest additions. (only Vermin shape really comes close to same level of power, and even it's better depending on your circumstances. The Giant Stag Beetle has the same melee damage output as DRAGON FORM (it's melee attack hits as hard as an ancient dragon's bite weapon and it only deals 4 damage less per hit due to lower strength), just without any of the other fancy bells and whistles Dragon Form gets, and Giant Bombardier beetle can fire an acid breath cone at will (doesn't hit that hard, 2d4+2 (save for half), but it's at will and can hit a pretty decent-sized cone, Dire spider is a general purpose form with a potent strength poison and Giant Wasp has a potent Con poison)).

Drow is good vs casters (though Mind-Flayer is better once you get aberration forms), Kobold is a good stealth option and remains useful as nothing else aside for Pixie form really fulfills the same niche, Lizardfolk exists but is outclassed by literally every other form unless you really need poison immunity or a tiny amount of acid or easily by-passed damage reduction. And even that is completely overshadowed by Ooze forms.

Combat-wise the Giant forms at level 2 outclass all of the humanoid forms in combat. (honestly my original concept was to do away with NWN versions entirely and just include a bunch of common player-races plus some of the more common humanoid ecl races, like Drow, but since we've already got a humanoid shape, and they are utter trash compared to everything else the MoMF is supposed to get, I think just using the existing 3 is fine).

since they merge weapons anyway, you could remove all the innate bonuses of the gear and just let them be based on caster's equipped gear properties, that way you're not getting a free +3 sword just for turning into drow form and actually NEED a +3 sword equipped for it to work). (and you could scale the SR by druid/shifter level so you're getting 11+ level like a Drow is supposed to instead of a flat 26)).

-----------------------------------------

Now a reminder, this is more of an organization of abilities and taking stock of what is already included, what needs adding, and what just needs to be moved around and tweaked a bit to have a more authentic MoMF.

Obviously I'm all for tweaking and rebalancing forms that are getting stuff that there's no reason they have it. (i.e. getting rid of the Hide in Plain Sight for the Kobold form, since Kobolds do not have any such ability (they get +1 natural armor, Darkvision, and +2 Search, and Small Stature benefits/penalties. That's it). (the Pixie instead becomes your go-to stealth master once you reach that level).

Getting rid of all equipment benefits for forms use extra equipment that isn't part of their innate racial benefits. (i.e. the magic gear of your forms should be the same as the magic gear you had before then, though I do know that there's issues with property stacking when it comes to merging (i.e. there's no point in wearing gear that buffs the same thing since only the best will be used post-merge and all +AC bonuses will get converted to deflection and won't stack).

But I think that's a small price to pay for how OP a lot of the forms innately are, especially since you can't use Monk-cheese on here.


(i.e. the majority forms that actually need looked as far as gear/stats go are forms equipped with weapons, since that gear should be blank, as it'll inherit the properties of whatever gear the Druid/MoMF had equipped. The main exception is Dragon Form as the last patch of NWN buffed it substantially, though I already covered what needed changing with it (15/+2 DR, 4d6 bite, 28 SR, add water-breathing to green dragon. Everything else is at the level it should be and scales appropriately based on your shifter/druid levels). (and in case you're wondering about their high stats...for comparison, a Frost or Fire Giant, is basically the same strength as an ancient Red Dragon and a level 2 shifter (potentially a level 7 character) could turn into one as they just BARELY meet HD requirements (2x Druid+MoMF level) to do so (well technically you could turn into a Frost Giant and need level 8 for a Fire Giant, but stat-wise they're basically identical except their resistances so there's not really much issue sweating 1d8 HP on a 14d8 vs 15d8 HP total).

Giant form (and Dragon form for that matter) have severe issues with regard to path-finding and the amount of space they take up so you're generally going to use those sparringly or in areas large and open enough to support them, like a lot of the other forms are better for navigating the more tight corridors (i.e. the Minotaur still has a clear use and purpose even though it comes after giant forms, since it's powerful in melee but still small enough to easily navigate around).

This all sounds well and good, and I'm all for giving any attention to shifters, but this sounds like a lot of work.  The original proposed script would hopefully just be a (more or less) plug and play - pending compilation errors and balance.

Carcerian's script is a study widget, so no changing into a Mind-Flayer, Drow, Drider, Minotaur, Dragon, etc, until you actually find them and "study" them.  It is silly for a PC who has never even heard of these creatures to be able to turn into one. 

Furthermore, it would fix the gear issue you addressed because it isn't a polymorph.  No more losing the ability to use heal kits/consumables (besides potions), swap inventory gear (weapons, armor, rings, etc), or my biggest peeve is having a random sword magically appear glued into your hand.  It would just be your player with a unique skin overlay and a behind-the-scenes creature hide to give you the appropriate properties.

For those not familiar with the script, the Study Widget is used on a creature (the script already takes into account all restrictions via levels, size categories, etc. - if you try to use it on a dragon at level 1, it will deny it and say you do not meet the requirements.). Once you successfully 'study' a creature, it nets you said creature widget.  You then use the creature widget to take on the appearance and properties of that creature, but do not actually go into the super buggy and antiquated NwN 'polymorph' state.  Upon shifting, any abilities that the creature would have, ie a Fire Beetles 'Fire Bolt' would be added in your inventory as a separate widget - open to customization, limited uses, etc.


The script is more-or-less already complete and ready to implement from my perspective... The only thing it needs is to be tested for compatibility with Ravenloft's current scripts (which only a developer can do), and then maybe balance some numbers out.  This could be anywhere from as easy as "it works, no issues, but dragon OP, disabling for now." to "need to rewrite the entire thing due to compatibility issues", as EO mentioned in regards to the Flintlock script.