You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: A simple and easy Paladin buff.  (Read 1071 times)

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1644
A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« on: December 21, 2021, 01:28:35 PM »
I do feel that two of the most problematic classes are Rogues and Paladins.

Although I have no idea of how to make a pure rogue more interesting, the Paladin can easily gain a buff that, although not enough to bring pallies to the top of the food chain, will grant them a thematic and useful ability:

Allow paladins to take the feats Rallying Cry, Inspire Competence and Final Stand:

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Rallying_Cry
https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Inspire_Competence
https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Final_Stand

Right now, a Fighter with High Charisma has access to feats that are undoubtfully more suited for a paladin.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

Philos

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Lord
  • *
  • Posts: 892
  • Detruisez tous, c'est une obligation!
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2021, 01:31:53 PM »
Paladins, in their currently implementation, are mechanically strong and role play rich. We have no plans to buff them at this time.

Pav

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1372
  • Heard it all before, pal.
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2021, 01:47:16 PM »
Paladins are one of the strongest classes on the server, made even moreso that with some of their multiclass options. I agree that the option to take those feats would be welcome, but it's not necessary, nor will you be able to fit them in with the amount of feats Paladins get.

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1644
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2021, 02:17:46 PM »
Paladins are one of the strongest classes on the server, made even moreso that with some of their multiclass options. I agree that the option to take those feats would be welcome, but it's not necessary, nor will you be able to fit them in with the amount of feats Paladins get.

Paladins are not the most feat abundant class, no doubt.

But I do find very strange that fighters have access to feats that are more suitable for paladins than for fighters.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22467
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2021, 02:18:58 PM »
Paladins, in their currently implementation, are mechanically strong and role play rich. We have no plans to buff them at this time.

Pav

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1372
  • Heard it all before, pal.
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2021, 03:07:42 PM »
Paladins, in their currently implementation, are mechanically strong and role play rich. We have no plans to buff them at this time.

I believe the further comments after Philos' reply are purely for the sake of discussion.

Paladins are one of the strongest classes on the server, made even moreso that with some of their multiclass options. I agree that the option to take those feats would be welcome, but it's not necessary, nor will you be able to fit them in with the amount of feats Paladins get.

Paladins are not the most feat abundant class, no doubt.

But I do find very strange that fighters have access to feats that are more suitable for paladins than for fighters.

Those feats have been given to Fighters due to the removal of the Purple Dragon Knight class, which is a Charisma-based, Leadership-themed PrC that was designed for Fighters. Paladins are not necessarily found as leaders of men, and you won't find them at the head of mortal armies on geopolitical conflicts (usually). Fighters with Charisma that have those feats are meant to portray, thematically, military and mercenary officers, as in line with the theme of the PDK class.

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2021, 05:10:29 PM »
Paladins are not necessarily found as leaders of men, and you won't find them at the head of mortal armies on geopolitical conflicts (usually).

That statement, in isolation, is tending towards tenuous. Even in the server's limited history, many groups and armies have been led by Paladins, including the Covenant (well, technically a Fallen Paladin-later-Redeemed, but let's not split hairs) and at least one of of the Covenant's generals (the murdered Sieur Gaston Maurice).

Game balance reasons are good enough not to give the Paladin class access to those feats, let's not go pretending that a CHA-orientated martial class isn't a poster child for leader-of-armies archetypes.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 05:12:29 PM by APorg »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Pav

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1372
  • Heard it all before, pal.
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2021, 05:16:16 PM »
Paladins are not necessarily found as leaders of men, and you won't find them at the head of mortal armies on geopolitical conflicts (usually).

That statement, in isolation, is tending towards tenuous. Even in the server's limited history, many groups and armies have been led by Paladins, including the Covenant (well, technically a Fallen Paladin-later-Redeemed, but let's not split hairs) and at least one of of the Covenant's generals (the murdered Sieur Gaston Maurice).

Game balance reasons are good enough not to give the Paladin class access to those feats, let's not go pretending that a CHA-orientated martial class isn't a poster child for leader-of-armies archetypes.

I did say usually, and I am referencing source material. The only Paladins who lead armies lead crusades against evil, which is, if I recall correctly, the same reason that fallen Paladin did his own thing.

My latter point is more relevant, in that they are PDK abilities and they are not Paladins. Saying "this statement in isolation" does not render a good counterpoint.

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2021, 05:28:27 PM »
I say "in isolation" because I'm not arguing for Paladins to earn these feats. I am arguing against a false thematic separation that you've created. Fantasy literature is replete with examples of Paladins leading armies.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Pav

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1372
  • Heard it all before, pal.
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2021, 05:39:42 PM »
I believe there was a miscommunication in the purpose of my replies and the content of them. You are correct, fantasy literature is replete with that. They are the poster child for leadership.

They are not, however, PDK equivalent, which is the entire origin point of this thread. There is no false thematic separation, there is thematic separation as illustrated in source material, both mechanical and flavorful - the PDK is a geopolitical tool of the State of Cormyr (and even if stripped of the PD parts of the abbreviation, a geopolitical tool of any feudal state), and the Paladin is not. Paladin PDK's are rare and they often either fall or quit because of the authoritarian and often unkind nature of that job.

Make of that what you will and explore whatever flavors you wish - I only came in to explain why Fighters are more suited to have those feats be applicable to them, due to their unrestrictive roleplay in comparison to a Paladin, who is a servant of Good and a crusader against Evil first and foremost.

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1644
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2021, 06:26:38 PM »
I believe there was a miscommunication in the purpose of my replies and the content of them. You are correct, fantasy literature is replete with that. They are the poster child for leadership.

They are not, however, PDK equivalent, which is the entire origin point of this thread. There is no false thematic separation, there is thematic separation as illustrated in source material, both mechanical and flavorful - the PDK is a geopolitical tool of the State of Cormyr (and even if stripped of the PD parts of the abbreviation, a geopolitical tool of any feudal state), and the Paladin is not. Paladin PDK's are rare and they often either fall or quit because of the authoritarian and often unkind nature of that job.

Make of that what you will and explore whatever flavors you wish - I only came in to explain why Fighters are more suited to have those feats be applicable to them, due to their unrestrictive roleplay in comparison to a Paladin, who is a servant of Good and a crusader against Evil first and foremost.

Acknowledging that it was said up there that this is not gonna happen, for the sake of exposition, in the case this discussion resurfaces in the Development Team:

1) Regarding the Theme of Paladins: Paladins are, as said above, the poster child for leadership. Not only lore wise, but also mechanics wise. I cite the "exclusive" Aura of Courage (in which you can spam courage to your allies) and all the turn undead feats (which, yes, other classes also have, but they do have some leadership flavor).

Also, I'd like to mention that it is expected that a Paladin is an example of virtue, courage and valor. They are supposed to be the first to charge, not attack an unsuspecting foe, etc.

Mechanically, I don't see how a class that can give to the whole party +4 or +6 will against fear, and ALL the "turn undead feats" (which includes healing, +2 fort for all allies, energy resistance for all allies, boost all healing around him, +2 bonus on saves against fear, poison, disease, and death effects for all non evil creatures, etc.) would not be considered a leader on it's own and I don't see how the suggested feats are thematically and mechanically uncompatible with the other feats and powers of the class.

2) The question on balance was stated above without room for discussion and it is rather pointless to argue. Okay, not gonna happen. I, however, don't see paladins as being that powerful IG. Among the people I talk, the class is practically a joke and I not only saw some palladins getting their ass served, as I even saw some complaining of being a non "competitive" class. Not gonna even break this argument in pieces because would be pointless, however, (by memory) the primary AB classes received some nice buffs, while the paladins received a few nerfs in the server.

3) The fact that the fighter charisma feats came from the Purple Dragon Knight doesn't seem to me a rather striking argument for not allowing the Paladins to have access to those feats. The only requirement IG to have them are class level and Charisma. Period. You do not need an application, specific skill point allocation, alignment, RP, nor anything like that. Saying that a "paladin would fall if became a PDK because they would have to obey Cormyr orders" ignore that IG fighters do not do that. Most of them don't even come from Cormyr. There is no order to obey and even if there were, you would have to apply that to the fighter's alignment too, since the prestige class requirements are non-evil and non-chaotic. In short, there are no requirements IG for a fighter that a Palladin would not have.

4) Lastly, this access to the feats would make a Paladin overpowered. First, as said above, Paladins are feat starved. Giving more options means only they will have more thing to not pick. Second, those feats are primarily party oriented feats. They would not make Paladins "stronger". They would only make paladins more IG interesting.

In short: ok, not gonna happen because the development team understand that Paladins are powerful enough. Cool. But, mechanically and thematically wise, a Palladin is probably nearer a PDK than the usual Fighter.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

zDark Shadowz

  • Guest
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2021, 06:50:00 PM »
I'd be fine with paladins learning purple dragon knight abilities simply on the basis of the following in the source material for the class:

Multiclass Note: A paladin who becomes a Purple Dragon knight may continue advancing as a paladin.

If anything, I would like to see paladins have the Heroic Shield ability as long as it is rescripted to have a duration that lasts until the distance between ally and paladin exceeds a certain amount or until it is turned off by targeting themselves / a different ally.

The Heroic Shield or Constant Guardian feats done right are something I really would like to see, defending others.

PrimetheGrime

  • Full-time Hunter, Part-time Outlaw
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2023
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2021, 08:02:32 PM »
Paladins, in their currently implementation, are mechanically strong and role play rich. We have no plans to buff them at this time.

Preacher83

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 49
  • Missionary from a distant land
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2021, 10:55:28 PM »
I believe there was a miscommunication in the purpose of my replies and the content of them. You are correct, fantasy literature is replete with that. They are the poster child for leadership.

They are not, however, PDK equivalent, which is the entire origin point of this thread. There is no false thematic separation, there is thematic separation as illustrated in source material, both mechanical and flavorful - the PDK is a geopolitical tool of the State of Cormyr (and even if stripped of the PD parts of the abbreviation, a geopolitical tool of any feudal state), and the Paladin is not. Paladin PDK's are rare and they often either fall or quit because of the authoritarian and often unkind nature of that job.

Make of that what you will and explore whatever flavors you wish - I only came in to explain why Fighters are more suited to have those feats be applicable to them, due to their unrestrictive roleplay in comparison to a Paladin, who is a servant of Good and a crusader against Evil first and foremost.

Acknowledging that it was said up there that this is not gonna happen, for the sake of exposition, in the case this discussion resurfaces in the Development Team:

1) Regarding the Theme of Paladins: Paladins are, as said above, the poster child for leadership. Not only lore wise, but also mechanics wise. I cite the "exclusive" Aura of Courage (in which you can spam courage to your allies) and all the turn undead feats (which, yes, other classes also have, but they do have some leadership flavor).

Also, I'd like to mention that it is expected that a Paladin is an example of virtue, courage and valor. They are supposed to be the first to charge, not attack an unsuspecting foe, etc.

Mechanically, I don't see how a class that can give to the whole party +4 or +6 will against fear, and ALL the "turn undead feats" (which includes healing, +2 fort for all allies, energy resistance for all allies, boost all healing around him, +2 bonus on saves against fear, poison, disease, and death effects for all non evil creatures, etc.) would not be considered a leader on it's own and I don't see how the suggested feats are thematically and mechanically uncompatible with the other feats and powers of the class.

2) The question on balance was stated above without room for discussion and it is rather pointless to argue. Okay, not gonna happen. I, however, don't see paladins as being that powerful IG. Among the people I talk, the class is practically a joke and I not only saw some palladins getting their ass served, as I even saw some complaining of being a non "competitive" class. Not gonna even break this argument in pieces because would be pointless, however, (by memory) the primary AB classes received some nice buffs, while the paladins received a few nerfs in the server.

3) The fact that the fighter charisma feats came from the Purple Dragon Knight doesn't seem to me a rather striking argument for not allowing the Paladins to have access to those feats. The only requirement IG to have them are class level and Charisma. Period. You do not need an application, specific skill point allocation, alignment, RP, nor anything like that. Saying that a "paladin would fall if became a PDK because they would have to obey Cormyr orders" ignore that IG fighters do not do that. Most of them don't even come from Cormyr. There is no order to obey and even if there were, you would have to apply that to the fighter's alignment too, since the prestige class requirements are non-evil and non-chaotic. In short, there are no requirements IG for a fighter that a Palladin would not have.

4) Lastly, this access to the feats would make a Paladin overpowered. First, as said above, Paladins are feat starved. Giving more options means only they will have more thing to not pick. Second, those feats are primarily party oriented feats. They would not make Paladins "stronger". They would only make paladins more IG interesting.

In short: ok, not gonna happen because the development team understand that Paladins are powerful enough. Cool. But, mechanically and thematically wise, a Palladin is probably nearer a PDK than the usual Fighter.

The dev has spoken. Not gonna happen. But dismiss the arguments with a laconic reply is not very constructive. The players insights must be taken as serious contributions to the server improvement, offering divergent, yet collaborative thoughts for the dev and DM team.
We are here not to criticise, but to build together a better experience, in which we all are doing heavy investment of time, resource and talent, on both sides of the table. So, the guy deserves more than a "not gonna happen".

By the way, personally, as a paladin player, I believe the ideas are very reasonable.
"For not in my bow do I trust,
    nor can my sword save me.
But you have saved us from our foes
    and have put to shame those who hate us." Psalm 44.6-7

SardineTheAncestor

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1787
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2021, 11:22:56 PM »
Would really enjoy these feats as well as the ones zDark mentioned like heroic shield and stuff if I were to play, say, a support paladin. Different build paths are much cooler than meta throughput builds enforcing themselves. At least there's plenty of sacred feats to play around with. /shrug
Insatisfait permanent, c'est ça l'apanage du champion.

JustMonika

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1886
Re: A simple and easy Paladin buff.
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2021, 03:44:25 AM »
 I think the feats would be cool, but is the design goal not to replicate PnP?