New exp system

[DaloLorn]

But there are plenty of ways to gain gold which don't involve gaining combat experience at all. You'll just be subjecting yourself to a different kind of grinding. Crafting, gathering herbs or whatever to sell it, ninjalooting... some of it you can even do while grouped up and RPing. Not all activities can be provided with the same homogenised rewards so that everyone gains as much.

I have traditionally avoided all of these, either for the preservation of my own sanity (opportunistic gathering is as far as I'll go with herbs, and crafting is a pain in the ass that will sooner "reward" me with CTS than any meaningful profits), or on practical grounds (putting aside the fact that many of my characters can't ninjaloot if they wanted to, rampant ninjalooting is one of the greatest contributors to inflation on this server).

Besides that, there is a viable balancing act. Save money instead of spending it, and do not go into dungeons if you have any XP reduction at all. This is a real option for any class, even if you don't make much, you will eventually have plenty if you don't throw it away. And if you are extra patient, wait until strong desire I suppose, then it's impossible to fall into blind drive without doing 2 or 3 at-level dungeons in one day.

So your balancing act is "spend months as a pauper, so you'll be able to get XP for being carried through a dungeon by your richer, better-geared friends". That's... a comforting thought. (Not that I'm intrinsically opposed to the notion of being dead weight, as evidenced by Myrda... but Myrda is quite a unique case.)

The cap is restrictive if what you like to do is log on, find a group, and adventure. This is a viewpoint I support. I completely believe the claims that people are feeling disincentivised to go dungeoning with friends because they're at cap. I wouldn't dungeon at cap either.

That mindset could easily shatter parties. People have already provided examples exactly corresponding to the cap-induced group decoherence I'm mentioning, so I won't rehash that argument.

I see the problem, but I don't think it lies in not being able to make "enough" gold or avoid the cap.

It lies in it being a zero-sum game between doing one or the other.

And, not to dismiss what you are saying, but PvP is its own can of worms.

People usually say "not to [do X bad thing]" right before they go do it anyway, as if it changes what they're doing.

[Revenant]

Playing around with this in the last few weeks has made me come to dislike the gameplay aspects of this server more than ever. It has been genuinely unfun to play, and the arbitrariness of the Roleplay Progression system is only empowering my frustrations.

To clarify, I have played a character that had the maximum potential bonus experience for not dungeoning. After a single dungeon, it went away. That's business as usual. What I wasn't ready for is the fact that within the same day, doing like level dungeons, I would become capped. Roleplaying seemed to have done nothing, and roleplaying in dungeons seems to just... not work, as I have not gotten the Progression by Roleplay tick more than a couple of times today, while roleplaying extensively. I imagine there's an oopsie somewhere in the database, considering the recent instability of the server on the Beamdog client, and that something, somewhere, is fundamentally broken.

Regardless of that, I find the server's continued punishment of players wanting to play the game to be disheartening. People don't come to play on Roleplay servers unless they intend to roleplay (and if they don't intend that, they either leave, don't bother anyone, or get banned swiftly). Why is it still a thing? How does it actually help? It seems to be on the same line as the Roleplay Progression cap at 14, something that is completely unnecessary and only limits the experience rather than expanding and enriching it.

More or less in agreement here. I'm also more convinced that there might be some bug with the system - I was told before the change that hitting the level of cap that would now give you 0 was already something exceptionally rare, and since the change it's come up a lot. Some of that might be problems with anecdotes, the effect of a bias in reporting, or perhaps the original statement was based on a very narrow snapshot of time, but I find it strains credulity to believe that peoples' overall response to a change saying they get less benefit from grinding was to grind hard enough to turn something exceptional into something commonplace.

[Dardonas]

Playing around with this in the last few weeks has made me come to dislike the gameplay aspects of this server more than ever. It has been genuinely unfun to play, and the arbitrariness of the Roleplay Progression system is only empowering my frustrations.

To clarify, I have played a character that had the maximum potential bonus experience for not dungeoning. After a single dungeon, it went away. That's business as usual. What I wasn't ready for is the fact that within the same day, doing like level dungeons, I would become capped. Roleplaying seemed to have done nothing, and roleplaying in dungeons seems to just... not work, as I have not gotten the Progression by Roleplay tick more than a couple of times today, while roleplaying extensively. I imagine there's an oopsie somewhere in the database, considering the recent instability of the server on the Beamdog client, and that something, somewhere, is fundamentally broken.

Regardless of that, I find the server's continued punishment of players wanting to play the game to be disheartening. People don't come to play on Roleplay servers unless they intend to roleplay (and if they don't intend that, they either leave, don't bother anyone, or get banned swiftly). Why is it still a thing? How does it actually help? It seems to be on the same line as the Roleplay Progression cap at 14, something that is completely unnecessary and only limits the experience rather than expanding and enriching it.

More or less in agreement here. I'm also more convinced that there might be some bug with the system - I was told before the change that hitting the level of cap that would now give you 0 was already something exceptionally rare, and since the change it's come up a lot. Some of that might be problems with anecdotes, the effect of a bias in reporting, or perhaps the original statement was based on a very narrow snapshot of time, but I find it strains credulity to believe that peoples' overall response to a change saying they get less benefit from grinding was to grind hard enough to turn something exceptional into something commonplace.

I feel the same.  It is also about that time I get on my soapbox and state the obvious, but characters that require months and years of investment to be "viable" in conflict is not a healthy for the server.  It exacerbates PvP conflict to OOC feelings and there has seldom been a PvP where someone did not end up banned or in a mediation in the past six months, in one fashion or another.  People do not want to close characters that take upwards of months and years of investment.  In addition to that, the level cap isn't just 20.  The level cap is 20+ epic levels of enchanting, and the enchanting system is extremely grindy and costly.  Let alone if someone loses enchanted weaponry or a shield in a PvP encounter, that just leaves people feeling like they lost months of progression in addition to the consequences of the PvP in addition to any consequences from having to take a revival from being corpsehid.

A lot of PvP issues would be fixed if the levelling process from 1-14 was more streamlined and easier to achieve.  None of my characters really try hitting conflict until they hit level 12 because it's anything before that is basically suicide.  Anything after that, however, is a menacing grind that just feels like "Man, to hell if I'm ever closing this PC after it took me a year and some change to get to 20."  And while that may not be me, I can certainly say that there is a good portion of the server population who does not like the system, despite staying for the RP.

And PvP aside, it just doesn't encourage people to take risks and do exciting storytelling in general on their characters when it takes so long to level up.  And the longer they're around, the more they enchant, the closer they are to twenty, the better gear they have—all of these things work against encouraging the sort of storytelling that seems to be encouraged on the server. I'm not saying some tweaks to the system would fix everything, but it would certainly make the system better than it is now.

[Siobhan]

I've been playing a very seldom dungeoning character for the past couple months based out of Lucine. Despite their +2 ECL, they are maintaining parity with other characters who were also created at the last NCE.

I think the idea that "dungeoning allows you to progress faster" is an illusion, given the combat XP buff/debuff. From my anecdotal point of view, the only variable that players can really control is the time put into RP XP ticks, assuming the occasional dungeon every two weeks or so.

[SardineTheAncestor]

But there are plenty of ways to gain gold which don't involve gaining combat experience at all. You'll just be subjecting yourself to a different kind of grinding. Crafting, gathering herbs or whatever to sell it, ninjalooting... some of it you can even do while grouped up and RPing. Not all activities can be provided with the same homogenised rewards so that everyone gains as much.

I have traditionally avoided all of these, either for the preservation of my own sanity (opportunistic gathering is as far as I'll go with herbs, and crafting is a pain in the ass that will sooner "reward" me with CTS than any meaningful profits), or on practical grounds (putting aside the fact that many of my characters can't ninjaloot if they wanted to, rampant ninjalooting is one of the greatest contributors to inflation on this server).

Besides that, there is a viable balancing act. Save money instead of spending it, and do not go into dungeons if you have any XP reduction at all. This is a real option for any class, even if you don't make much, you will eventually have plenty if you don't throw it away. And if you are extra patient, wait until strong desire I suppose, then it's impossible to fall into blind drive without doing 2 or 3 at-level dungeons in one day.

So your balancing act is "spend months as a pauper, so you'll be able to get XP for being carried through a dungeon by your richer, better-geared friends". That's... a comforting thought. (Not that I'm intrinsically opposed to the notion of being dead weight, as evidenced by Myrda... but Myrda is quite a unique case.)

The cap is restrictive if what you like to do is log on, find a group, and adventure. This is a viewpoint I support. I completely believe the claims that people are feeling disincentivised to go dungeoning with friends because they're at cap. I wouldn't dungeon at cap either.

That mindset could easily shatter parties. People have already provided examples exactly corresponding to the cap-induced group decoherence I'm mentioning, so I won't rehash that argument.

I see the problem, but I don't think it lies in not being able to make "enough" gold or avoid the cap.

It lies in it being a zero-sum game between doing one or the other.

And, not to dismiss what you are saying, but PvP is its own can of worms.

People usually say "not to [do X bad thing]" right before they go do it anyway, as if it changes what they're doing.

1. Avoiding money making schemes but having a problem with playing "paupers" is your own choice, not an argument against the capacity for a character to earn gold. This pauper thing is your own construction. There are many ways to make money. Some are more tedious than others. But given this is an RP server, if you don't want to make money yourself, you can find others to do it for you. People will throw it at you if you simply humour them. Plenty of players have too much money and are eager to fund the endeavours of others.

2. Most of my characters haven't been big spenders even into the high levels. I haven't played a "greedy" character yet, I haven't needed to steal from other players in the party by getting to the loot chest first or yanking everything off the boss, I brought something to the party, did what I could, and sometimes took my fair share. But good rapport is worth more than gold, levels, and gear. When the option was there to make a deal they did so, but best in slot items are not required to do most of the dungeons on the server. I didn't need carries by rich or better geared players even when I was new. In any party where I wasn't the high level leading the charge, I was sometimes the low level leading the charge, but regardless of my level, I didn't need carries, I kept up with the other players around me. Sometimes I made characters that weren't so effective but I found ways to contribute even outside of crafting.

3. Yeah, I know it's a bad situation, that's why I support the viewpoint. I'm trusting the people who are making those statements because I noticed it even before the new system was put in place.

4. It is not a zero-sum game. You don't have to believe me, but your experience is not the universal experience. Your approach is different from mine and it led to different results. You don't need a wealthy character or to have the best gear many levels before you can even join a group to find it in loot yourself.

5. I don't know what you're talking about. If you want to discuss the prevalence of PvP, maybe make a new thread, this one is about gaining experience, which is primarily done in dungeons and RP XP. In my opinion, competitive PvP is against the spirit of roleplay, which is a stance I'm not willing to change my mind on.

[Favee]

One of the goals of this new experience system was to give a benefit for investing into a character by roleplaying on them more, and making the exp cap reduce more quickly.

The cap hits so fast, and dissipates so slowly that I've noticed many of my friends simply just making even more alts.  They'll "red cap" and move onto another alt.

It takes a long time even with tons of roleplaying for that cap to disappear.  Ignorance was bliss, and I loved seeing my friends do dungeons together every other night.  Now it's maybe once a week or less.

[Day Old Bread]

The cap hits so fast.

I've not been an avid dungeon runner so I can't speak to the rate at which people are hitting the cap.

Is it possible however, that the cap is being reached sooner than intended?  It's a question for the devs to look at.

I'm wondering if it's just a problem of people finally realizing that they've been grinding needlessly or if the system is artificially pushing them into the xp cap faster than intended.

[SardineTheAncestor]

It seems a lot of people notice this pattern becoming even more prevalent now.

I don't believe the cap is reached any faster than before. But given it could already take a week or so to go from reduced XP to normal XP, a potential improvement of 20% isn't all that much.

It's not 20% faster leveling. It's certainly not 40% faster. There's no math to support that. It's maybe 2-3% faster leveling overall. It's just 20% longer to get out of the cap if all you do is log off and wait, and 20% quicker to get out of the cap if you indulge the new system. But again, that's not much of an improvement. You still have to wait for it to go away. You are dungeoning maybe 2 more days per month for efficient XP. So there's not much of any new incentive to log on, stay on, stay IC. Keyword is new. Ignorance may have been bliss, but there were still heated debates about how XP actually worked, and a lot of people were entirely aware that blind drive made a level which could normally be done in 4 dungeons take 40 or more. And if people feel more incentive to log off and just play alts instead of accruing RP XP like they used to, then they're going to be leveling much slower than before, leading to even more dissatisfaction.

If the outcome has been so negative, maybe the dev team can begin to adjust as needed; they said they would, so we should trust them.

Why not increase the 20% cap decay rate to 100% (e.g. double)? Or maybe increase RP XP so that more people feel that this "alternative" is more viable and delivers results a bit faster.

I wonder how things would change if combat XP were reduced somewhat, but the cap was removed, and RP XP was not only increased, but also changed to be the way you bank up your "strong desire" XP buff, sort of like how it decays your reduction now. Not just logging onto an alt to wait for it.

[Abear]

I like the new system pls rp with me more.

I have not hit red cap, that sounds like it sucks. Personally, I would rp more.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

I've seen many complaints about that new red message, so just to be clear again, the red cap isn't anything new, it was already there before the update. You'd get a message saying you were getting XP, when in fact you weren't getting any after the math were done, hence why we changed the message to show the new red message you are seeing now. See it like a fix if you want.

Basically, the XP system works exactly as it did before, the only thing that really changed is the change we mentioned with RP XP.

[Day Old Bread]

I've seen many complaints about that new red message, so just to be clear again, the red cap isn't anything new, it was already there before the update. You'd get a message saying you were getting XP, when in fact you weren't getting any after the math were done, hence why we changed the message to show the new red message you are seeing now. See it like a fix if you want.

Basically, the XP system works exactly as it did before, the only thing that really changed is the change we mentioned with RP XP.

This has been my thought all along as it has been mentioned numerous times previously. I had just wondered if perhaps there had been an unintended change at the rate which people were hitting the cap.

I haven't noticed any change myself as I don't typically grind dungeons. 2-3 a week is a lot. Appreciate the clarity illuvatar.

Seems the biggest issue people are having is that the wool has been pulled away from their eyes and now they have confirmation that their efforts are futile.

[Laur]

I like the new system pls rp with me more.

I have not hit red cap, that sounds like it sucks. Personally, I would rp more.

Personally, I like that it actively warns you now when you're getting reduced XP. And despite giving it my best effort and doing multiple dungeons this NCE every day, I have been unable to hit the red cap, so I think it is probably tuned fine.

[Nezmith]

Personally, I like that it actively warns you now when you're getting reduced XP. And despite giving it my best effort and doing multiple dungeons this NCE every day, I have been unable to hit the red cap, so I think it is probably tuned fine.

Really, it's the higher up you go, the worse it gets. I take one of my higher levels who have a 'fresh mind' to red cap within 3 hours of dungeoning. My NCE character has been bumping his nose on the cap all day for the past 2 days, but he's definitely pushing the higher levels of the current NCE population. With all that said, I have a love/hate relationship with the system. I hate how you can completely stall at some point, but also acknowledge that leveling too fast can be detrimental. If everyone could hit 20 within a month of grinding, I doubt many people would stick with their characters or the server for too long. It also takes out a lot of the fear of A/MPCs if you allow everyone to level that quickly.

I think you could summarize that by saying it's the long, arduous journey with friends that's enjoyable, but it's not fun if there's no journey at all and the current system imposes that kind of restriction.

On the RP side of the coin, I think the quality has generally improved, but I will echo that outside of the NCE, a lot of the level 1-10 activity seemed to die down for a bit there. Possibly because of holidays, but I find if people can't think of a way to progress their character through RP they just put it on a shelf for a week or two and come back (if that).

[Abear]

Yeah, I dunno. I have a level 17 character and I hit two of the most xp dense dungeons on the server pretty regularly (3-4 times/week) and I've never hit red cap. I like that it tells me when I'm getting diminished returns.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I've seen many complaints about that new red message, so just to be clear again, the red cap isn't anything new, it was already there before the update. You'd get a message saying you were getting XP, when in fact you weren't getting any after the math were done, hence why we changed the message to show the new red message you are seeing now. See it like a fix if you want.

Basically, the XP system works exactly as it did before, the only thing that really changed is the change we mentioned with RP XP.

I'll reiterate that, while ignorance may have been bliss for plenty of players, there is clearly a problem if the pattern we noticed before is now becoming more commonplace, where people just start playing alts to wait out their reductions. This poses many issues for longevity and consistency of any particular RP scene if people don't bother coming back, and it also causes storycrossing risks if people don't stick to one character.

20% quicker is enough for some people, but some are not incentivised enough and feel like they are being more punished than ever.

I've barely managed to go into the beginning stages of blind drive even during my most active phases of play here, and I think there is a serious problem that cannot be ignored if groups that RP together are calling it in that this new system is breaking them up. It's not right that they are being incentivised to scatter among alts that don't get half as involved in story beats and character development as one focused main character.

[Rocket]

It's not right that they are being incentivised to scatter among alts that don't get half as involved in story beats and character development as one focused main character.

Perhaps people in their bliss were habituated to dungeon running as their prime enjoyment from the game.
This is revealing of the player behavior on this server, if such complaints come up.

I think a lot of players are really missing out on the enjoyment of RP and conflict. Drama, cliques, us versus them, plots, etc. (pretend you're in highschool again)
And I think a lot of players never really learned how to do it or let loose with their character.
I felt like this update when it says RP helps to reduce the XP fatigue would encourage more RP.
But the problem lies in the nature of player behavior so maybe give it time, people can change?
Do your part and RP.


All the while certain characters in the game perpetuate the dungeon grind mindset.

[HouseOfLament]

I'm sorry but I can't not bring it up anymore

Do any casuals experience the wall?

I recently hit 1k hours on NWN mostly thanks to POTM and it's only been a problem for me when I give three page sermons to large groups.  I've been killing all sorts of stuff while on vacation w/ a frontline PC and I still haven't hit the wall once this NCE

[apeppertoo]

I recently hit 1k hours on NWN mostly thanks to POTM and it's only been a problem for me when I give three page sermons to large groups.  I've been killing all sorts of stuff while on vacation w/ a frontline PC and I still haven't hit the wall once this NCE

I've not hit the wall but I can count on one hand the number of dungeons I've completed on my NCE character and she can't get out of blind drive.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

I've seen many complaints about that new red message, so just to be clear again, the red cap isn't anything new, it was already there before the update. You'd get a message saying you were getting XP, when in fact you weren't getting any after the math were done, hence why we changed the message to show the new red message you are seeing now. See it like a fix if you want.

Basically, the XP system works exactly as it did before, the only thing that really changed is the change we mentioned with RP XP.

I'll reiterate that, while ignorance may have been bliss for plenty of players, there is clearly a problem if the pattern we noticed before is now becoming more commonplace, where people just start playing alts to wait out their reductions. This poses many issues for longevity and consistency of any particular RP scene if people don't bother coming back, and it also causes storycrossing risks if people don't stick to one character.

20% quicker is enough for some people, but some are not incentivised enough and feel like they are being more punished than ever.

I've barely managed to go into the beginning stages of blind drive even during my most active phases of play here, and I think there is a serious problem that cannot be ignored if groups that RP together are calling it in that this new system is breaking them up. It's not right that they are being incentivised to scatter among alts that don't get half as involved in story beats and character development as one focused main character.

There is absolutely no reason why you must or should have to go on an alt because you've hit blind drive and cannot get XP from dungeoning. That's a personal choice each player make for themselves. This server was originally designed with a focus on RP in mind, and we are still making our choices based on that initial design and intent for the server. These days we have an action server for people who are strictly into dungeoning and don't really want to bother RP'ing, afaik we have no XP cap there.

The reason we made the change allowing for RP XP to make it up to 20% faster your cap to cooldown is because it was a way to both encourage people to roleplay more as well as giving what everyone had been asking for a long time, more XP. It doesn't necessarily give you more XP obviously, but it allows you to get more.

[Rocket]

To clarify, I have played a character that had the maximum potential bonus experience for not dungeoning. After a single dungeon, it went away. That's business as usual. What I wasn't ready for is the fact that within the same day, doing like level dungeons, I would become capped.

I wanted to point this problem out tho. For any devs reading.
This has happened to me before where I'm at the lowest message and then I become capped within a day.
While other times, it feels like it takes a few days and its literally a chore trying to hit the cap by grinding dungeons.
This is kinda of annoying. Probably more annoying to other players than myself.

But I should check the messages next time to be sure I was at the lowest of the XP fatigue in both cases or maybe I'm misremembering the messages.

[DaloLorn]

I'm sorry but I can't not bring it up anymore

Do any casuals experience the wall?

I recently hit 1k hours on NWN mostly thanks to POTM and it's only been a problem for me when I give three page sermons to large groups.  I've been killing all sorts of stuff while on vacation w/ a frontline PC and I still haven't hit the wall once this NCE

Historically, yes. I have blind drived on a diet of something like 1-2 dungeons and 4+ hours of RP per day.

More recently... no, but Myrda has been far less adventurous than my previous characters thus far, owing to a combination of uselessness as an adventurer, rare access to adventuring parties (mostly due to said uselessness), and an abundance of MPC activity that has offered plenty of adventure outside the server's PvE content. I expect she'll either experience a reduction in playtime or start to push up against the cap after the NCE ends.

[Abear]

Yall red cappers really out here doing Thoth at level 7 and wondering why you hit cap huh

[DM Indolence]

For those concerned about possible bugs, since this conversation started Soren's checked the associated scripts three times, and they're working as intended. This isn't to argue for or against the merits of the system, but to address conjecture that something isn't working properly, or is broken.

[Rapugnak]

ok just to make sure I understand correctly... when an item is enchanted, and you go to blind drive or redline from no slowdown this is working correctly and was intended?

[DaloLorn]

Yall red cappers really out here doing Thoth at level 7 and wondering why you hit cap huh

I have been there once, if at all. (I'm a little fuzzy on which temple is which, but IIRC, I've never revisited any of them - across my whole account - after my initial visits.) I've also only visited the Vestibule once or twice on my whole account, etc. In both cases, I went there at fairly zone-appropriate levels.