Author Topic: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)  (Read 7813 times)

Iolantir

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Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« on: December 06, 2021, 11:10:33 AM »
I've been thinking for a while about how to approach posting this, despite the topic having come up before. I believe there are some serious issues with how RP XP gains are set up on this server, and rather than just say they are bad, I wanted to throw out one suggestion that I feel would be appropriate.

Faction Base RP
Regardless of your level, if you are RPing in an area that is considered your faction base, your RP XP should not be penalized. Garda, for example, should be allowed to gain RP XP in all of Vallaki. These are areas that the characters should be expected to play in, and to penalize them for accurately portraying their character by restricting their progression feels short-sighted. This would then apply to other factions based, so that if you're a member of the Red Vardo, you would get full RP XP in Vardo areas. If you're Wayfarer Kinship, you'd get RP XP in the lodge. This would also allow those areas to become mini hot-spots for faction members, further encouraging roleplay. As someone in the Kinship, I would not hesitate to sit in the lodge all day and chat with those who recently joined, giving them small tasks to complete or even just chatting. While yes, I could do this now, let's not pretend that the incentive of experience-based character progression isn't a huge motivator for a LOT of things that happen on this server. That motivator is what was leveraged to try and get people out of Western Barovia, afterall.

I understand the team wants to push people out of Western Barovia at 14+. While I disagree with the idea of pushing people out of a setting without having at least a somewhat similar area for 14+ people to congregate, allowing people who have an in-character reason to be in Western Barovia to still benefit by sticking true to their character feels appropriate.

This is a DnD game. A big part of these games alongside roleplay is character progression. To be someone that is rooted in Western Barovia, has backstory in Western Barovia, has literally no reason to leave Western Barovia, but goes to the Mist Camp to queue into the local group finder just for character progression feels like it breaks the spirit of the server.

mooner

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2021, 11:18:11 AM »
i think an issue that has been highlighted previously (and which isn't necessarily tackled in the op, besides garda having vallaki-wide exp) is that this would encourage faction members to hole up in plot locked interiors that other players are not going to see or be invited inside to, at least most of the time.

if faction members are given rp xp in greater areas of western barovia, then you have the issue of it being unfair to people who are not part of a faction.

in my opinion, the cap either needs to go entirely or the issue to be tackled is one of people - as you say - going off east to dungeon, get xp, and then come back to the lower level areas. i am not sure we can go into that without derailing the thread, though, so i'll refrain from doing so for now


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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2021, 11:22:43 AM »
This topic has already been covered many many times already, and we unfortunately aren't planning to add this kind feature in the foreseeable future. You're of course free to discuss and throw ideas as always, but in this case I wouldn't get your hopes up. We already made some adjustments to the XP system recently, and for the time being we're satisfied with the way it is. I realize its not the kind of answer you're looking for, but it is the situation right now.
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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2021, 11:23:22 AM »
Also, as I know this will come up - Port rp is in no way similar to Barovia rp.. the push to “go to Port” for your next rp hub to enjoy wine and cheese mixer mixers or fresh baked baguettes,  is different then what goes in a backward country like Barovia .. I would get rid of rpxp moratorium altogether, but that said I’d settle for faction bases..

Iolantir

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2021, 11:24:09 AM »
i think an issue that has been highlighted previously (and which isn't necessarily tackled in the op, besides garda having vallaki-wide exp) is that this would encourage faction members to hole up in plot locked interiors that other players are not going to see or be invited inside to, at least most of the time.

if faction members are given rp xp in greater areas of western barovia, then you have the issue of it being unfair to people who are not part of a faction.

The first point has merit, but I don't think we can accurately say what the majority of people would do without seeing how things go. I don't believe that a majority of people would suddenly disappear from the Outskirts and other RP areas under this change.

Regarding the fairness of XP gains, the characters who would get RP XP in their faction bases are tied to that base as a part of their character. I'd say the other side of the coin is that it's unfair that they are roleplaying true to their character, but not being properly rewarded for it through character progression.

This does create some messy situations where a Barovian native would never leave Barovia but is still penalized, but I think that just emphasizes the massive flaw in limiting RP XP as a whole. And this thread is one idea to try and combat that.

Iolantir

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2021, 11:25:01 AM »
We already made some adjustments to the XP system recently, and for the time being we're satisfied with the way it is. I realize its not the kind of answer you're looking for, but it is the situation right now.

The thing with this is that the changes to the XP system recently actually further penalize those who remain in Western Barovia as part of their character at level 14+, if I understood the changes correctly.

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2021, 11:28:18 AM »
ah, so you're saying enable rp xp for those characters who are more restricted in when and where they can travel in order to compensate with the characters who still leave to dungeon elsewhere? definitely something worth considering, and i would agree if not for the fact that there are still characters (arguably few characters, but they are there all the same) who roleplay similar restrictions or inhibition but aren't a part of an official faction and would still be left with the exact same problem

Iolantir

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2021, 11:31:30 AM »
ah, so you're saying enable rp xp for those characters who are more restricted in when and where they can travel in order to compensate with the characters who still leave to dungeon elsewhere? definitely something worth considering, and i would agree if not for the fact that there are still characters (arguably few characters, but they are there all the same) who roleplay similar restrictions or inhibition but aren't a part of an official faction and would still be left with the exact same problem

The change would essentially be aimed towards characters who have faction-based purpose to continue to get RP XP while in Western Barovia (in their faction areas). It's not a perfect change that would allow for everyone who is under a similar situation to be rewarded, but it would be a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2021, 12:44:26 PM »
I think there should be reconsideration for this idea if it's been shot down before.  A couple of quick pros:

1. Factions have very well made, nicely designed bases that imo go sadly underused, an incentive to RP in them more not only gets these great areas more traffic, but also will inevitably generate RP for the faction and beyond

2. It gives higher level players who may not RP in the main hub so much a reason to come back and then again, create more RP hopefully

3. Certain factions that aren't very adventure intensive (rebels, garda) can still get XP to help offset the lack of monster killing experience points

4. Non faction players can get interaction with canon factions and thus add to the overall theme of the setting

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2021, 01:09:20 PM »
Faction Base RP
Regardless of your level, if you are RPing in an area that is considered your faction base, your RP XP should not be penalized. Garda, for example, should be allowed to gain RP XP in all of Vallaki. These are areas that the characters should be expected to play in, and to penalize them for accurately portraying their character by restricting their progression feels short-sighted. This would then apply to other factions based, so that if you're a member of the Red Vardo, you would get full RP XP in Vardo areas. If you're Wayfarer Kinship, you'd get RP XP in the lodge. This would also allow those areas to become mini hot-spots for faction members, further encouraging roleplay. As someone in the Kinship, I would not hesitate to sit in the lodge all day and chat with those who recently joined, giving them small tasks to complete or even just chatting. While yes, I could do this now, let's not pretend that the incentive of experience-based character progression isn't a huge motivator for a LOT of things that happen on this server. That motivator is what was leveraged to try and get people out of Western Barovia, afterall.

I understand the team wants to push people out of Western Barovia at 14+. While I disagree with the idea of pushing people out of a setting without having at least a somewhat similar area for 14+ people to congregate, allowing people who have an in-character reason to be in Western Barovia to still benefit by sticking true to their character feels appropriate.

This is a DnD game. A big part of these games alongside roleplay is character progression. To be someone that is rooted in Western Barovia, has backstory in Western Barovia, has literally no reason to leave Western Barovia, but goes to the Mist Camp to queue into the local group finder just for character progression feels like it breaks the spirit of the server.

I've spent the afternoon trying to think of the proper way to respond to this, because I appreciate it is a difficult subject to many people and one I struggle to emphasise with, having only once had a level 14+ PC in Barovia, for whom I was not bothered they didn't recieve any RPXP. Still as a Community Councillor, it's important for me to be able to understand and represent the views of the player base, even those I disagree with.

For what purpose is this additional XP saught? The Dungeons designed for level 14+ characters are not found in Barovia. If you want higher levels to access more server content, your character is going to have to travel to non-Barovia areas anyway. AMPC's are specifically started off roughly in the 12-15 level range, having multiple higher level PCs hang around the servers primary hub actively hinders their ability to create atmosphere, so I'd hope it's not for that. And if it's for PvP, you're all equally advantaged/disadvantaged. I'm certainly not aware of many instances where people who primarily RP outside the capped areas return to Barovia simply to PvP those who are lower level, and if you're aware of this I would encourage you to report it to the DM Team.

I struggle to advocate for your interests because I don't understand the motivations behind them and given the balence implications, it's important we have a well thought and reasonable consideration to change things.

Also, as I know this will come up - Port rp is in no way similar to Barovia rp.. the push to “go to Port” for your next rp hub to enjoy wine and cheese mixer mixers or fresh baked baguettes,  is different then what goes in a backward country like Barovia .. I would get rid of rpxp moratorium altogether, but that said I’d settle for faction bases..

This sort of post really causes me a great deal of sadness. Aside from any concerns as to if its degrading to those who do enjoy port, it really isn't representative of what transpires at all. Approximately sixty players turned up in Port just this week for a dueling Tournament. We have regular academic lectures. A recent plot just concluded which was entirely about the underground trade of illict drugs. There is certainly noble intergue, and I confess on exactly two occasions I can recall there was a wine tasting event for some of the noble PCs, but we have everything from criminals, researchers, mad scentists, bodyguards, merchants, and more, in addition to the handful of noble PCs. Describing it as you have done is a significant diservice and misrepresentation.

Further, Port isn't the only non-Barovian option. The Dev team have just put significant time and effort into redesigning the Mist camp and the Red Academy to allow both to function as alternate non-Port hubs. Now I can fully appreciate if none of that appeals to you personally, no-one has to enjoy port or the mist camp, or Hazlan, but to say there are no alternatives just isn't true, just as if it is to say those alternatives only offer one dimensional roleplay.

ah, so you're saying enable rp xp for those characters who are more restricted in when and where they can travel in order to compensate with the characters who still leave to dungeon elsewhere? definitely something worth considering, and i would agree if not for the fact that there are still characters (arguably few characters, but they are there all the same) who roleplay similar restrictions or inhibition but aren't a part of an official faction and would still be left with the exact same problem

I assume this suggestion is primarily aimed at the Guarda, as they're one of the factions which is truely tied to the setting. [There is an Ezrite Cathedral in Lucine, for example] But the Guarda are not meant to be a merchaically powerful faction. Nor in my experience are they needeed to be one. They're actively discouraged, much like the Gendarmie in Port, from participating in dungeoning, so the only application of levelling would be PvP and again I've not experienced any issues here. It's also worth noting the pace of RP XP is painfully slow. You're not going to even come close to catching someone who dungeons regularly, so the addition of it would really only take shape over the very long term. Once it has however, you could have level 20 Guarda walking around, and I don't see what that adds to the 'Fear of the Night' aspect of the setting either.

Iolantir

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2021, 01:22:03 PM »
Quote
I've spent the afternoon trying to think of the proper way to respond to this, because I appreciate it is a difficult subject to many people and one I struggle to emphasise with, having only once had a level 14+ PC in Barovia, for whom I was not bothered they didn't recieve any RPXP. Still as a Community Councillor, it's important for me to be able to understand and represent the views of the player base, even those I disagree with.

For what purpose is this additional XP saught? The Dungeons designed for level 14+ characters are not found in Barovia. If you want higher levels to access more server content, your character is going to have to travel to non-Barovia areas anyway. AMPC's are specifically started off roughly in the 12-15 level range, having multiple higher level PCs hang around the servers primary hub actively hinders their ability to create atmosphere, so I'd hope it's not for that. And if it's for PvP, you're all equally advantaged/disadvantaged. I'm certainly not aware of many instances where people who primarily RP outside the capped areas return to Barovia simply to PvP those who are lower level, and if you're aware of this I would encourage you to report it to the DM Team.

I struggle to advocate for your interests because I don't understand the motivations behind them and given the balence implications, it's important we have a well thought and reasonable consideration to change things.

Player progression is an important part of the experience for many players. I understand that some players may not care for player level, and don't encounter many situations where player level or character power is important, but I would not say that is true for a majority of the playerbase. Experience represents the progression of a character. Roleplaying in Barovia, per the character's current storylines, affiliations, or what have you, should not be inherently 'less efficient' XP wise compared to roleplaying on a terrace in Port, simply because there are "stronger dungeons" in the area. There is no less effort, time, or thought into the roleplay based on the location where the roleplay takes place, and penalizing players who decide to base their RP in one domain over the other feels needlessly punitive.

I think it's a mistake to inherently believe that because there's no dungeons in Western Barovia for levels 14+, that it means roleplay should not be rewarded XP-wise for characters that are 14+. While yes, roleplay is part of the reward, it is not the whole reward for everyone.

It's also not exactly true, as I can still come out of some dungeons in Western Barovia with a proud message, spawn depending, at level 14.

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2021, 01:34:50 PM »
I think there might also be a sense of FOMO at play; “fear of missing out”. I likely won’t ever push past level 14 on my Barovian native, for example, but there’s still this weird feeling of wanting to go further without needing to go elsewhere, even though I don’t really have any use for being in the higher levels in the first place. Not to get all psychological about it, anyway—I just know that’s what it is for me, since that same feeling was present when I’d play lower level RP characters on WoW. Some people just like seeing the numbers go up and eventually cap out, and some people don’t want to disturb their day-to-day to get there, even if it’s a significant achievement that warrants doing so.

(For the record, I take no issue with the XP cap. I just felt like throwing in my two cents and then disappearing back into my hidey hole. <3)
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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2021, 01:40:47 PM »
If your based out of zone where there is no xp cap.. and are saying the Barovia XP cap doesn't bother you.. I think you should consider that players who WANT to stay in Barovia, aren't given the luxury that you are given in the zone where you are rewarded for your RP efforts.

Also, I am proud to say I enjoy both RP and getting XP rewarded for it. I realize in a game like dungeons and dragon, the idea of leveling up might seem a bit crazy, so put me in the madhouse.. cause I can't get enough! =)

mooner

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2021, 01:41:00 PM »
I assume this suggestion is primarily aimed at the Guarda, as they're one of the factions which is truely tied to the setting. [There is an Ezrite Cathedral in Lucine, for example] But the Guarda are not meant to be a merchaically powerful faction. Nor in my experience are they needeed to be one. They're actively discouraged, much like the Gendarmie in Port, from participating in dungeoning, so the only application of levelling would be PvP and again I've not experienced any issues here. It's also worth noting the pace of RP XP is painfully slow. You're not going to even come close to catching someone who dungeons regularly, so the addition of it would really only take shape over the very long term. Once it has however, you could have level 20 Guarda walking around, and I don't see what that adds to the 'Fear of the Night' aspect of the setting either.

the garda are certainly impacted by it - probably the most - but they are far from the only faction. gundarakite rebels under normal circumstances should obviously be based within barovia. the morninglordians see a good number of native barovians who, though they are certainly different to the usual native, should still be less inclined to travel than their outlander counterparts. the ezrites similarly are not supposed to leave their congregation without permission, and the main bases for the ezrites are in barovia (raduta, rectory). you can travel to port, certainly, but probably not too often as it wouldn't really make sense to do so.

pvp in the garda is a different matter altogether. i wouldn't say there's a problem with it but they are at quite the disadvantage in not having any magic to utilise and effectively being capped at 12-14. the gendarmerie do not have those restrictions and while they may be having to apprehend higher level characters on average, the garda still have to deal with them upon occasion.

fear of the night is another issue that's tied to this one, and has been arguably beaten to death in other threads as well. at level 12, with silver gear, you are effectively safe from anything that can spawn in vallaki. the only real threat are MPCs. those aside, what does it matter if the garda character is level 12 or level 20? mechanically, they have nothing to fear regardless.

that is just argument for argument's sake, though. in my opinion it would be wiser to focus on ways to minimise the impact higher levels have on barovia, even if it is often unintentional

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2021, 01:47:35 PM »
This is not meant to be sarcastic or sassy in anyway, but an honest question.  If you are creating RP in a faction based area (supported factions which, more often than not are in a prime position to generate plot, story, and immersive role play) Should you not be awarded with RP XP?  To me the story itself is the reward but, at the same time, if a plot takes a level 14 PC to Vallaki, and often it does, it's at least a small pat on the back to get RP XP in your own base.

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2021, 01:53:55 PM »
I think another thing to consider is Barovia itself is not designed to really be above levels 12-14 as a whole, traditionally at least. I think design wise it would do more harm to really allow xp in that area that pushes you beyond it. To play devil's advocate to that point most the domains fall in to that category as well. For me at least, I see that getting around 12-14 as a Barovian concept should be around the point you should be wrapping up your story anyways. As an outstanding individual getting to that level is sure to draw the attention of the powers that be and that rarely ends well for the one who had the attention drawn to them. Wanting to play a Barovian based concept is well and cool but I do thinking going in to that concept you should go in with a general idea in mind of how to wrap it up around that point in level as well. Not going to make many friends with this but I am of the opinion that characters higher than 14ish without a good reason to be in Western Barovia shouldn't be there at all. It would add to the fear of the night as the stronger gear would not be moved in to the area as much and be much more rare. It is hard to fear the night when you can easily grab some toptier gear after a day of krofburg runs. Even with expensive prices you are looking at around 10-12 thousand gold for armor and a weapon on the expensive end? That is about two days of running about with deliveries on a good loop.
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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2021, 02:08:14 PM »
Just going to throw in my two cents here coming from the point of view of an AMPC. I've played several of them and I like to think that I'm very active in doing so, I also only play them in the Barovia area. There's an entire reason why for that but it's not really relevant here. I have seen and heard people making the argument along the lines of 'AMPC are level 12-14, roleplay experience would just make more high levels want to stay there and kill them more'.

That is not something I worry about as an AMPC, I welcome people gaining RP XP in Barovia. But why would I do that? Why would I want more high levels to show up and try to kill my character? Well dear reader, that's because they are already there trying to kill me. If they're already travelling from Mist Camp and the other 'High level areas' to come specifically to kill AMPC, how does giving them RP XP make any difference?

Well, it doesn't make any difference. The people who do that will always do that and it's their right to have agency in this. But what is currently in play to keep them away from Barovia doesn't work, they still come and try to kill me anyways.

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2021, 02:19:24 PM »
I personally like how things are right now. If you choose to have a Barovia-based PC then you'll have to go to other places to level up and adventure once you hit the cap, and there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, I like that it encourages travel.

The 'if you're level 14+ you have no reason to fear' argument falls flat for me, because my view is that fear shouldn't be based on mechanics. You have to choose for your character to be afraid of something and enforce it voluntarily. Your character may not be afraid of famished crag cats -- but maybe they have arachnophobia, or other such 'irrational' things that can't be dispelled away through 'oh, I can get this thing to 0 HP quick'. Horror isn't about just dispatching dungeon mobs.

The larger issue, and what has ended threads like this before, is that a lot of work has gone into designing the server to be how it is and the devs are unlikely to change it. In my opinion, it's easier to roll with that fact and just play with or around it.
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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2021, 02:23:56 PM »
It seems higher levels are going other places to level anyway, I don't think level 14+ players are in barovia thinking they are going to level from RPXP in their faction base. I think its just the idea of getting something from the RP instead of a big fat zero.

As someone who RPXP leveled a character from 6-11 I can say I would never dream of trying to RPXP from 14-20, nope, but having the little ticks whilst your RP'ing in your own faction base that only exists in western barovia? It seems that level 14+ players shouldn't be allowed in the factions then if that's the aim.

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2021, 02:24:29 PM »
I personally like how things are right now. If you choose to have a Barovia-based PC then you'll have to go to other places to level up and adventure once you hit the cap, and there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, I like that it encourages travel.

For dungeons, for the most part, sure. But to say that roleplay in Mist Camp or Port should inherently be more rewarding XP wise than Barovia feels arbitrary, especially with supported factions.

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2021, 02:26:41 PM »
This is not meant to be sarcastic or sassy in anyway, but an honest question.  If you are creating RP in a faction based area (supported factions which, more often than not are in a prime position to generate plot, story, and immersive role play) Should you not be awarded with RP XP?  To me the story itself is the reward but, at the same time, if a plot takes a level 14 PC to Vallaki, and often it does, it's at least a small pat on the back to get RP XP in your own base.

I strongly support this point.

RPXP is part of the system, sure, but should never be the reason why someone makes its own RP. If you WANT desperately to tell a story of a local character, blablabla, there is no need to level above the intended level of the area.
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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2021, 02:34:59 PM »
For dungeons, for the most part, sure. But to say that roleplay in Mist Camp or Port should inherently be more rewarding XP wise than Barovia feels arbitrary, especially with supported factions.

The answer you're likely to get (I vaguely recall reading this in a similarly themed thread previously) is that RP is it's own reward, not necessarily tied to RPXP, but just as a fun time.
I don't necessarily agree with it, but it be what it be.
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Iolantir

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2021, 02:36:08 PM »
For dungeons, for the most part, sure. But to say that roleplay in Mist Camp or Port should inherently be more rewarding XP wise than Barovia feels arbitrary, especially with supported factions.

The answer you're likely to get (I vaguely recall reading this in a similarly themed thread previously) is that RP is it's own reward, not necessarily tied to RPXP, but just as a fun time.
I don't necessarily agree with it, but it be what it be.

To be fair, I'd totally agree with this if RP XP wasn't a thing.

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2021, 02:42:27 PM »
This is not meant to be sarcastic or sassy in anyway, but an honest question.  If you are creating RP in a faction based area (supported factions which, more often than not are in a prime position to generate plot, story, and immersive role play) Should you not be awarded with RP XP?  To me the story itself is the reward but, at the same time, if a plot takes a level 14 PC to Vallaki, and often it does, it's at least a small pat on the back to get RP XP in your own base.

I strongly support this point.

RPXP is part of the system, sure, but should never be the reason why someone makes its own RP. If you WANT desperately to tell a story of a local character, blablabla, there is no need to level above the intended level of the area.


Last I checked, most RP in port requires a high CHA, not a high level, so why don't we remove the RP XP from that hub area as well, likewise for Hazlan?  You dont need to be level 20 to order a baguette or croissant while attending a lecture on the best shoe polish in the core.  Just saying.

remnar

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Re: Faction RP XP (Level 14+)
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2021, 02:47:57 PM »
I love RPXP.
It's like god mixed crack and heroin and ketamine and meth and a very nice way of getting XP, given that, on an RP server, I do a lot of RP.
And I think RP should be rewarded.  Anyone can bum rush dungeons day in and day out, stopping only because of blind drive, and end up in the mist camp permanently.

Frankly, I see no reason why rpxp should be restricted to JUST outside of western barovia, when western barovia is one of the three hubs actually populated, includes multiple 'home bases' for certain races, has an underground scene, and in general is frankly more interesting than the other hubs.

So I say, let everywhere get full rp xp


or let nowhere get full rp xp.


It's not like rpxp is what keeps high levels out of Barovia - it doesn't, they just show up to schwack an ampc when they near their timer.
a way to alleviate this would be moving some of the features of WeBa to EaBa, however this would, arguably, split up the playerbase even more, however I do not see that as much of an issue - there's plenty of players

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