Author Topic: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed  (Read 1680 times)

Dardonas

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PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« on: October 21, 2021, 10:32:49 AM »
Posted here:

Quote
- Updated the bleeding system to better provide a 6 second grace period after first being taken to 0 hit points.

PvP is too time sensitive to allow for the six second grace period.  I can understand its purpose for PvE, but a full round of combat can heavily influence IC events.  Can this be changed for PvP only?  This heavily determines IC events and what transpired vs. what didn't.

Duayne

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2021, 10:37:47 AM »
Can you give a non spoilery example?

The only possibly issue I can see from this is that 6 second grace period being abused for people to heal someone up repeatedly.

APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2021, 10:45:13 AM »
Basically it adds 6 seconds in a PvP scenario where someone wants to grab the victim and get away.
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Dardonas

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2021, 10:46:13 AM »
If you're trying to obtain someone's corpse for a bounty, six seconds is a full round of combat for attacks and a spell (or two if hasted).  It makes classes like rogues and assassins even more unplayable if you have to stand there for six seconds while people hit you. 

DaloLorn

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2021, 11:13:29 AM »
If you're trying to obtain someone's corpse for a bounty, six seconds is a full round of combat for attacks and a spell (or two if hasted).  It makes classes like rogues and assassins even more unplayable if you have to stand there for six seconds while people hit you.

Counterpoint: Why should you be able to kill someone in full view of a bunch of their friends and get away with their corpse?
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Dardonas

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2021, 11:16:50 AM »
If you're trying to obtain someone's corpse for a bounty, six seconds is a full round of combat for attacks and a spell (or two if hasted).  It makes classes like rogues and assassins even more unplayable if you have to stand there for six seconds while people hit you.

Counterpoint: Why should you be able to kill someone in full view of a bunch of their friends and get away with their corpse?

It isn't even necessarily taking the corpse and running off.  If someone attacks someone and kills them, having six seconds of plot armor makes the difference between attempted murder and murder.  For some, that's closure or not closure.

Let's say a hypothetical is that a player character is on one-life mode from a DM plot and you try to assassinate them and run out.  You don't necessarily have to get their corpse for the death to be impactful.  But if six seconds of a player lying there in plot armor are allowed to pass, then that's enough time for someone to get healed and negate the attempt while you're attacked by their allies and possibly suffer those consequences that you shouldn't suffer if, say, you slit someone's throat or behead them in roleplay then run off.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 11:22:23 AM by Dardonas »

DaloLorn

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2021, 12:07:05 PM »
True, but... it doesn't sound like it'd be a very common problem, and even if it were, you do have the option of trying to assassinate them when they don't have quite so many friends watching.
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ZSRunner

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2021, 12:13:24 PM »
I think this problem can be solved by time playing responsibly on both sides.

It makes me think of the final scene of Jet Li's Fearless. The Japanese fighter, knowing the Chinese fighter had pulled his final punch conceded defeat.

If we know this 6 seconds is a thing, we can be honorable in our PvP.

That said, if you were to slit someone's throat it would still likely take them some time to bleed out completely. In a world where magic exists, one could argue that you'd better stick around for one more swing just to be certain of death.

Dardonas

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2021, 12:19:22 PM »
True, but... it doesn't sound like it'd be a very common problem, and even if it were, you do have the option of trying to assassinate them when they don't have quite so many friends watching.

It's common enough to have influenced a few scenarios lately.  We can't pretend that the consequences aren't high for botching a PvP conflict, and this sort of scenario makes it so that botching PvP is going to be more common than it should.

Those 6 seconds are the difference between people getting corpsehidden and soft-closured or being corpsehidden or soft-closured.  I know that sounds hardened and callous, and it is, but that's the nature of PvP on PotM due to how high stakes often are.

Edit:

Let's not also neglect that this only really is an issue for martial characters in PvP.  Mages can just outright badly impair someone with spells and let's not get into Evard's and Missile Storms. 

Also, Quivering Palm from monks outright corpses someone.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 12:38:48 PM by Dardonas »

manyconsonants

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2021, 12:40:49 PM »
Will this have an effect? I've not been downed since this system came into place. Does it prevent you from hitting the unconscious body and killing them? Does it stop you from dealing damage beyond -10 and going straight from someone standing to dead? As I understand it from the changelog, it sounds like it just creates a six second window before you start bleeding rather than making you invulnerable to damage.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 12:43:21 PM by manyconsonants »

Dardonas

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2021, 12:42:24 PM »
Will this have an effect? I've not been downed since this system came into place. Does it prevent you from hitting the unconscious body and killing them? Does it stop you from dealing damage beyond -10 and going straight from someone standing to dead?

In mine and other players' experience, it's been just attacking players who are down and it doing nothing to do them.  They take the hits, but they aren't corpsed. 

Edit: I was told this wasn't a bug, but rather intended based on the changelog.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 12:44:56 PM by Dardonas »

manyconsonants

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2021, 12:44:32 PM »
Will this have an effect? I've not been downed since this system came into place. Does it prevent you from hitting the unconscious body and killing them? Does it stop you from dealing damage beyond -10 and going straight from someone standing to dead?

In mine and other players' experience, it's been just attacking players who are down and it doing nothing to do them.  They take the hits, but they aren't corpsed.

I see. Well then yes, I agree this is certainly a concern for PvP and it would be nice if this were changed so PvP is still more immediately fatal.

APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2021, 01:01:42 PM »
If we know this 6 seconds is a thing, we can be honorable in our PvP.

I think that expectation isn't realistic. A smash-and-grab scenario isn't really an honourable sort of PvP in the first place. Putting myself in the victim's shoes or their friends', I doubt most would be inclined to "honour" a death that the mechanics didn't grant.

However, I agree with Dardonas, this sort of thing makes assassination even more difficult than it already is.
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MJ_Johansson

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2021, 01:27:28 PM »
Seems like a good thing, to me, making assassinations harder. Now I won't speak to people in DM plots who have one life, but for everyone else...

It doesn't make too much sense that you can just kill them, throw their corpse over your shoulder and vanish before anyone can react. If anything, that sort of thing mostly seemed to cause conflict and hard feelings, and a certain lack-of-fun. Actions having consequences is all well and good, but with this change it seems you might have to actually set things up more carefully than smash, grab, run. Heck, you might even have to make it fun and interesting for the person being ganked, which I think is worth striving for.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2021, 01:47:37 PM »
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.
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Dardonas

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2021, 01:53:52 PM »
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.

Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic. 

JustMonika

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2021, 02:17:01 PM »
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.

Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.

The fact we have 'HP' and can be shot with an arrow 20 times and have them all sticking out of you but be fine is unrealistic. There are serious problems with applying any degree of realism to NWN even before applying the magic and fantasy setting.

A six second grace period seems fine for a 'cinematic' setting.

Dardonas

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2021, 02:22:57 PM »
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.

Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.

The fact we have 'HP' and can be shot with an arrow 20 times and have them all sticking out of you but be fine is unrealistic. There are serious problems with applying any degree of realism to NWN even before applying the magic and fantasy setting.

A six second grace period seems fine for a 'cinematic' setting.

It heavily unbalances PvP in favor of monks with good quivering palm DCs and mages who can badly impair you with a few IGMS's or Horrid Wiltings.

MJ_Johansson

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2021, 02:51:37 PM »
So maybe the fix needs to be so the same 6 seconds grace period applies to mages and monks, then, no? Then it would be fair all around.
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Evendur

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2021, 02:53:48 PM »
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.

Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.

The fact we have 'HP' and can be shot with an arrow 20 times and have them all sticking out of you but be fine is unrealistic. There are serious problems with applying any degree of realism to NWN even before applying the magic and fantasy setting.

A six second grace period seems fine for a 'cinematic' setting.

It heavily unbalances PvP in favor of monks with good quivering palm DCs and mages who can badly impair you with a few IGMS's or Horrid Wiltings.

While I tent to rather agree with the grace period being an issue, perhaps the answer is instead to "fix" quivering palm and certain spells so they no longer impair someone right away.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 03:02:04 PM by Evendur »

zDark Shadowz

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2021, 02:59:10 PM »
If the PvP is unbalanced toward a level 15 Monk or a lvl 13+ wizard using the peak of their abilities, that's only fair for PvP within the spectrum of their level ranges.

I know what the reality is, I think everyone does, but I would think there is an expectation that people PvPing lower level characters with an ability that only works on lower level characters to go for an instant win, or someone using an excessive caster level for an opponents current hit dice... may not need to corpsehide their target with their (nearly unstoppable) ethereal jaunt abilities they both also have right after. They clearly weren't a legitimate threat while alive.

They already have some dumb stuff they've earned to prevent reasonable recoveries.

If people want to hide their identities while PvPing they could use the disguise system rather than just killing and hiding everyone in the room. Or use appropriate threats. More fun for everyone than putting people in a stasis chamber due to lack of creativity.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 03:01:45 PM by zDark Shadowz »
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King_Abear

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2021, 03:11:24 PM »
Sounds like IGMS needs another nerf.
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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2021, 03:53:13 PM »
I think the grace period is quite nice in this context. Slowing down the pace of PvP seems like a positive to me, at any stage. Iterative changes in that direction shouldn't be harmful to anyone's enjoyment in a server where PvP is already dominated by the tendency toward ganking.

Quivering palm shouldn't impair though. Unless I missed something, that seems out of the scope of what it does in lore: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Monk#Quivering_Palm

I think it makes more sense that the ability instantly incapacitates and leaves someone at -7 like certain other instant death spells.

Instant impairment was probably included for cases like getting hit with extremely powerful spells/attacks while already injured. I can respect the drama and horror that should be tied to someone rapidly getting mummified by Horrid Wilting or mutilated by spells like Destruction or Gutwrench. Certain spells should retain the chance to instantly kill and impair revival, but I don't feel quivering palm fits in that category.

King Pickle

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2021, 04:17:50 PM »
6 seconds before body grab I can handle.

But if you are outnumbered in PvP, the other guy can just keep healing downed ally before you can corpse them.
At the very least there should be a 6 second period before you can heal them, that would make it "fair" when its 2 vs 1.

Even then this change gives even further advantage to the gankers, who are usually outnumbering their target.

BlackEmperor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2021, 07:05:55 PM »
Before the change was put into place, it still took several seconds for the player to disappear on death and the corpse to spawn in, this takes assassinations from a short but notable time to ludicrously long when it comes to PVP.