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Author Topic: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed  (Read 1951 times)

APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2021, 11:51:54 PM »
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

You know, one of my very first PvP memories on this server was one of Dread AMPC's trying to do a snatch and grab on one of Puck's PCs, to abduct her for some RP.  He wanted to drive some antagonism without being forced to fight all of us. Of course we were all tense after getting out of a Mac plot so we chased him down, and he was a little cross as he felt we were spoiling his attempt to be an antagonist. It's funny to think these days we're almost seriously[1] talking about shutting down all that entirely from the gate.

That PvP has devolved over the years I can only agree, but it has little to do with either rules or mechanics.

While you can't create a good culture from good rules and mechanics alone, bad rules and mechanics do nothing to encourage a good culture. The message "Be excellent to each other and respect each other's roleplay" is a lot easier to take on board when the rules make sense and encourage the behaviour you want to see.

Making bodies weigh a realistic amount is fair. Making bodies take longer to pick up makes sense. Throwing up artificial roadblocks like making corpses electromagnetically stuck to the ground on the flip of a hostile button is not fair or reasonable, and is not going to invite a fair or reasonable attitude in PvP.

 1. I say "almost seriously" because I assume you're being flippant to try to make a point, if I'm honest, MAB
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Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2021, 11:54:53 PM »
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC

Do you mean like picking up an object mid-combat? No different from a barrel, or a weapon. Pen and paper and Neverwinter make no distinction between these two, it is as far-fetched as a player retrieving a particularly awkward weapon from the ground or moving something mid encounter. A corpse has no particular qualities that make it above this, it makes sense in its "reality".  The inventory is only a representation of something on the person, to place a corpse in it mid-fight is the equivalent of slinging it over a shoulder or tying it to you, how well you manage that is represented by your carry capacity.

Turns and rounds are really an abstraction of the melee broken down into six-second intervals, I promise you in six seconds you can pick up an object you could even throw it. What you're saying is less about sense, or cinematics but a matter of player experience. You would need to preference the argument in that way.
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APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2021, 12:06:27 AM »
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC

This is a game where people get resurrected, can down strength potions to be superhumanly strong or fast, have magic bags that make what's inside weigh less, or can shapechange into monsters. It completely makes sense to be able to pick up a body IC. Agreed, it's too easy right now, but what doesn't make sense IC are the OOC roadblocks some people would like to erect to slow down the "snatch" part of this process.

While I'm criticising this OOC thinking, can I also point out that King Pickle keeps having these great ideas to slow down the "snatch" part , but nobody else seems to be listening to him?

Turn corpses into containers so they can't be put in bags. About 60% (weight reduction of bags) of the problem solved right there!
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tom

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2021, 12:29:40 AM »
If its truly just a 1.8 second timer for pvp I'd say thats perfectly fine.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2021, 12:30:24 AM »
The main problem to me is the way the corpse is just an item. You can't grapple with the person who picked it up and try to get them to drop the body, you have to kill them before they escape. You should be able to interact in that manner, but the game is a bit dated so you have to take some liberties. Perhaps getting knocked down could eject all corpses from your inventory.

Not being able to bag a corpse would be positive I think, but even better would be something that makes it take longer to pick up a body. This provides counterplay and isn't a suspension of disbelief: running away with a body instead of fighting everyone in the room does make perfect sense, it's just the means of producing that corpse and getting control over it that should be looked at.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2021, 12:39:38 AM »
I have some thoughts.

I've assassinated many, many PCs. Some had others around. Some didn't. The 6 second grace period was intended to be present for as long as I've played on the server apparently. I have noticed a delay sometimes. It's a delay, but if a round is enough that the people around the assassin could stop the assassin? I dunno, you were probably gonna get got in the time it took a corpse to appear anyway. I have actually had a time when someone got healed repeatedly but they both still died in the end. It doesn't seem an issue.

Attacking someone with a group around is very dangerous. I don't think it should be against the rules to take a corpse from such a scenario because many of the people I did "assassinate" were being abducted and the system doesn't allow for a clean way to do it without a knife and a rez. Yes, you could try to RP it out, but in my experience PCs see red and they go for dead. And if they go for dead while you're trying to RP, you will not be protected by any hard rules.

An example of post abduction roleplay:

Spoiler: show


This is a world with resurrection, and often a criminal or vigilante is incentivized to make a violent point, or extract information, or to create a problem, that isn't about hiding a corpse.

I don't have any respect, really, for the mechanical steps necessary to make a PC fall in PvP. We have an imbalanced server by design. Casters stomp. Palemasters especially. The low level cap relative to the damage various classes can output means that if you want to "assassinate" a PC you only need patience and time. An unbuffed PC will lose to a prepared one going through the motions. I don't really see it as meaningfully different to two PCs squaring off and being buffed. I understand why it feels different, and like there's some agency, but really it's a straightforward and imbalanced engine. It isn't the issue, and never should be, unless we aim to shift the server design ethos to be balance focused like Arelith.

I think a lot of people commenting here haven't played an assassin, or someone that utilises stealth. The assassins that pull their hits off did so because they planned, and worked and studied. There's plenty of would be assassin PCs that got killed trying to pull off a hit wherein they underestimated the threat of a crowd. Where PvP is toxic is where it isn't constructive or executed with an eye to the story. I don't believe assassinations don't fulfill that. Some people against assassinations infront of others in this very thread directed or supported my own PCs doing the very same thing.

The problem is in whether there's a good reason for it to be happening, and in how it is handled afterwards.

As for all the talk of corpse snatching realism, IDK, this is a world where PCs are using all sorts of magic and supernatural tools. Seeing someone snag a corpse never bothered me. But, really, having grabbing a corpse take longer wont change whether a capable assassin gets their mark. Just like reducing IGMS damage doesn't change whether a wizard kills you if you are not also a wizard.

Oh, and I agree with more or less everything Aprog has said.

Also, yes, nerf IGMS.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 06:00:42 AM by PlatointheCave »

Lexica

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2021, 12:52:41 AM »
To throw in my two cents as someone who has played a lot of monsters, and has most of her PvP experience from the perspective of monstrous characters- Corpsing people accidentally less often sounds like a great change.

Often, when you're engaging in PvP as a monster, you want to just drop someone to zero and move to pure RP from that point, be it so you can RP out a vampire feeding, intimidate someone, take someone to a clandestine location at swordpoint... Ect. My past experience however has been that while attempting to do this, it's very easy to kill someone by accident. Now, monsters often have mist orbs for precisely this scenario, but if you accidentally badly impair someone or the raise dead fails and they come back as a zombie, suddenly you're no longer able to have the scene you were planning on.

With that in mind, this change seems like it will noticeably reduce the percentage of the time that outcome occurs.

No comment on non monstrous PvP as my experience with that is substantially lesser than some of the other people who have commented already.
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Phantasia

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2021, 01:01:58 AM »
As for all the talk of corpse snatching realism, IDK, this is a world where PCs are using all sorts of magic and supernatural tools. Seeing someone snag a corpse never bothered me. But, really, having grabbing a corpse take longer wont change whether a capable assassin gets their mark.

You could make this argument, certainly, but this is speculation at best. Sure, a skilled assassin/player should have no problem dropping the rest present, but as I stated in a previous post, once you do this in any PnP environment initiative has begun/begins for all present players and NPCs in which you could roll horribly, and the entire opposing cast of players/NPCs could all roll better than you and all get to act first. A delay (1.8 seconds in a high paced environment pales in comparison to 6) in bagging a body would mimic this and give players a more than reasonable chance to react, if the assassin isn't already tearing through other people who would raise arms against their immediate mission.

I just can't in any realistic world understand why anyone would argue against more equitable PvP encounters even if it "inconveniences" "assassins." Which for the actual good ones, it won't in the slightest.

In fact it would encourage them to take even grander risks, enlist the assistance of DMs, leave trails for PCs in case of failure or success... it's a greater win if everyone gets to witness a spectacle, rather than a loading screen, I'll reiterate again. Even if your intentions are to raise someone after getting to safety, it's actively frowned upon by the rules to engage in any discourse through tells after PvP whether it's to reassure the party or whatever else. As the aforementioned could come across as false promise and color expectations, when things could go sour during  the RP after.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 01:10:44 AM by Phantasia »
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PlatointheCave

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2021, 01:10:12 AM »
Yeah, to be clear, I don't see any point in trying to make PvP equitable. It isn't, and never will be, unless we fundamentally shift the server's design ethos. Which could be done. I wouldn't mind it. PvP isn't cool, fun or especially compelling roleplay. It's just a necessary step in realising concepts or deciding conflicts. Add more corpse grabbing time, stop them going in bags, whatever. It'll change the situational factors but it wont make the event any less "toxic". Only addressing why conflict happened or what comes after can decide that.

I also don't care if bagging a body takes more time, or has extra steps. I'd just rather not have a rule saying an assassin can't go for that while others are around. It'd be hard to follow (like, what happens if someone stumbles on the scene? How do I know someone is a hostile actor? Is it fair for me to just start stabbing bystanders?) It'd be a mess.

Phantasia

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2021, 01:11:50 AM »
Of course, you can never fully balance PvP, I was never suggesting that. But that does not mean we can't strive to try and make the encounters more equitable, is what I mean. I didn't mean to come off as absolutist, it's just a very difficult subject to discuss in most cases as there are hardly any solutions worth pursuing that aren't adding more convoluted scripts into the mix.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2021, 01:22:56 AM »
No, it's my bad, I missread what you said as me suggesting making things more equitable.

I do think we could achieve a pretty balanced PvP environment. Arelith managed it (OKNOT100%ARELITHIANSDON'THURTME). It'd just mean a big, big overhaul.

I do also think if you made corpse recovery more punitive you'd have fewer public assassinations. Which I do feel is a loss; I have sometimes elected to do the public and flashy assassination because it generates a better spectacle and story. The more you limit that, the less feasible it becomes. On balance, it's less skin off the assassins teeth to take the lower risk move.

Phantasia

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2021, 01:32:54 AM »
Having performed several high octane public assassinations in the past on an old character of mine I also disagree with completely making them impossible, but they should not be as seemingly easy as they are now (with first hand experience in the past and things I've observed in the present I think this is true).

They make great spectacle, attract crowds, and people get to participate in the environmental emotes of what's going on and what was left behind to investigate and pursue if they are lucky. Which should be some excitement to be on the receiving end of such attacks, given how much RP it should generate.

What is exactly left behind in a 1.8 second red dead and disappearance where no one gets to do anything but scratch their head in frustration that fully relies on the assailing party to be compliant after the fact (which is not guaranteed)? I believe that is a massive factor of the anxiety present with most situations like this. We never know if we'll just be afk for 8+ months or whatever, or we'll have post-hit RP.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 01:35:59 AM by Phantasia »
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PlatointheCave

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2021, 01:46:32 AM »
Very little.

Though it's worth noting that there seems to be an attitude like an assassination is necessarily an aggressive move. In a setting where the law is typically Evil you can end up under the thumb or threat of law enforcement that will bounty you for non-violent and even Goodly deeds. In an environment where a snitch is going to get me permanently bought in on a bounty, and put on the few tracks the server has for hard closure - why am I the aggressor for silencing someone actively pushing my character down that route? Especially if they've been explicitly warned before they took the step.

Being constructive and thoughtful is a two way street. If a PC chooses to try to throw mine down that path to an end, why is a "criminal" element being held to a different standard because they happen to be on the wrong side of the law? They might not be the faceless character that pulls the trigger in the end, but they're the reason it happens. The in game law doesn't decide between good and bad story. It's a tool of an evil authority.

I am absolutely in support of more roleplay elements surrounding conflict.

But it should be universal, and proportional. If a PC has earned a hit because they have aggressed using a lawful system with minimal roleplay or, seemingly, motive then I am more inclined to minimise the risk of pursuit or recovery.

I wish that were different, but it'd require changing both sides extensively.

King Pickle

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2021, 05:26:21 AM »
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC
Unfortunately pretty much all the rules we have favor mechanics over RP. Roleplaying less or roleplaying poorly ensures "winning".
Probably because mechanics police them selves so DM's wont have to.
But with rules like that and player base this large, I wouldn't expect anything but toxic behavior that reproduces it self, molding the culture as it is.

That said, I wouldn't completely hinder picking up corpses too much, though some adjustments might do good. Just as easily you may have to escape and carry your friend to safety from corpse snatchers.

While I'm criticising this OOC thinking, can I also point out that King Pickle keeps having these great ideas to slow down the "snatch" part , but nobody else seems to be listening to him?

Turn corpses into containers so they can't be put in bags. About 60% (weight reduction of bags) of the problem solved right there!
Cheers, here's another one: The corpse container is actually filled with guts, bones, heart, eyes, ears. The kind of stuff MPCs sometimes leave behind.
Although then people might start gutting their friends to make them easier to carry...
Maybe this is a terrible idea.
But then I think folks with too much money already burn corpses just to carry them faster, as is. Ah well.


Other than that, I think it would be good if we could extend subdual mode to elemental damage, summons and spells.
If we can subdue someone with a sharp knife then why not with a flaming sword or magic missile just as well?
And why not carry subdued corpses? I know it has been suggested before and there was counter argument, but it wasn't a good one.

That's all I got for now.
I'm glad to hear that its not actually 6 seconds and everything we say is kind of off topic now. But carry on.

Kleomenes

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2021, 07:56:02 AM »
I'm shifted from requiring all hostiles to be downed before picking up corpses, although at times it would lead to more satisfying scenes overall. I do think both picking up and carrying corpses should be harder however.

I know there is always the argument that this is a fantasy world, but I don't think that means anything should go. We should always try and be respectful of the IC situation on an RP server and not just play to game mechanics. For example, try putting a large cardboard box into a bin bag at home, and then tell me stuffing a much heavier, floppy limbed corpse in a bag would be easy - I think you'll agree it would not be! Being able to move things around our inventory is a gameplay quality of life issue, and such quality of life issues shouldn't sound in IC IMO.

Sure, tossing a corpse over your shoulder would be easier, but its not something that takes a fraction of a second like it does currently, and it doesn't place the corpse beyond reach of those you are fighting. Barring polymorphing, picking up and carrying a corpse would present hurdles, in characterly, and surely responsible RP should account for that? Or in fact mechanics.

So if we're in the realm of mechanics shifting to reflect IC, one or more of these could be considered:
- Sardine's suggestion of a "Herb picking" delay for picking up a corpse.
- Pickles' suggestion that corpses are made containers so they can't be bagged.
- Sardine's suggestion that corpses dropped if someone is KD'ed (Closest we've got to grabbing the corpse off someone).
- Some sort of visual cue that someone is carrying a corpse.

Something that made the whole process seem less gamey and more narratively driven, particularly when its got the potential to be so impactful, seems beneficial to me.

MAB77

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2021, 08:15:14 AM »
There are compelling reasons not to make carrying corpses harder. Though always taking PvP into consideration, balancing first needs to be done vs PvE, where 99,99% of situations occur. It's during PvE events other players will more often have the occasion of trying to save a friend. The game mechanic we implemented goes in that direction.

Though I still abide by my suggestion, I do recognize that actual PvP is such a rare occurrence that it's probably not required to act on that front. More than anything, I'd like to remind that PvP is supposed to be the culmination of RP conflict conducted in a manner satisfactory for all players. This last part is often forgotten in the equation. Don't play to win, play to tell a compelling story. Other's will have a much better time playing a role in your nefarious schemes.
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APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2021, 08:56:50 AM »
It's during PvE events other players will more often have the occasion of trying to save a friend. The game mechanic we implemented goes in that direction.

I mean, sure, but at the same time, if picking up a corpse is too easy, then picking up a corpse is too easy, regardless of whether we're discussing PvE or PvP. This is a gothic horror server, not a fantasy action server, making it so my elf friend wizard takes a few seconds more to save my foolish PC from Ooze City is probably OK.

Quote
Though I still abide by my suggestion, I do recognize that actual PvP is such a rare occurrence that it's probably not required to act on that front. More than anything, I'd like to remind that PvP is supposed to be the culmination of RP conflict conducted in a manner satisfactory for all players. This last part is often forgotten in the equation. Don't play to win, play to tell a compelling story. Other's will have a much better time playing a role in your nefarious schemes.

I don't think you understand how you undermine the very ethos you -- we -- are trying to champion. Saying "This is too easy in PvE, but shouldn't be so in PvP, so let's rule it IMPOSSIBLE" sends the message, at least to me, that you don't trust players and have to control them with big OOC rules, rather than trying to fix underlying mechanics and rules to be better. That's not a message that contributes to PotM's mission, in my opinion.
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MAB77

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2021, 09:40:17 AM »
Just the opposite in fact. While I do believe that snatching a corpse and flee immediately once its drop to the floor is poor form, while I did certainly made the proposal to avoid this behavior, I also acquiesced that the situation is so rare that an actual ruling is probably not necessary. I am rarely in favor of complicating rules and making exceptions to them. It adds a layer of complexity for DMs to adjudicate and they certainly do not need that.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2021, 12:24:04 PM »
I mean, sure, but at the same time, if picking up a corpse is too easy, then picking up a corpse is too easy, regardless of whether we're discussing PvE or PvP. This is a gothic horror server, not a fantasy action server, making it so my elf friend wizard takes a few seconds more to save my foolish PC from Ooze City is probably OK.

I'm completely with you here.

I'd really rather well-thought out mechanics are added instead of rules. We can't correct mindset problems and toxicity with rules or gameplay mechanics, players do have to be more understanding of one another, but it has to be a two way street.

I respect that those of you who have been here for years longer than us post-EE new players have seen a lot more variety in your PvP, but as stated before it will be difficult to convince me that exceptions make the rules. Convincing me may be pointless, but a huge chunk of the remaining community still views PvP in a certain light, or rather, the long shadow that gank culture has cast over all player conflict. Attachment is at the core of the problem, but so is OOC competition between players.

A lot of players rightly worry that if they don't play PvP like that, they're going to have to PvP against someone who prefers not to take any chances, and it's not about the fact that they've lost, but rather they trusted the wrong person. The "group narrative" thing that gets pushed every time this comes up, it just falls apart when people have their trust broken. A few people will be convinced to repeatedly take chances on others for no gain and they will be let down each time.

The rules right now allow exceptions to shine as a good example of what to do, and it's nice to know that happens sometimes, but most players aren't getting that far. Most ganks aren't high profile assassinations and abductions, they're just ganks. Most aren't this big, risky, narrative-enriching play, they're the path of least resistance, the quickest and easiest thing to do in order to eject someone from play.

I don't think this has ever been an issue of "all ganks are an initiation before which no hostilities have occurred." It's more an issue of reasonable escalation rarely being chosen as a guiding principle for a conflict, the same with deescalation, and all of the RP surrounding that over just disappearing someone. I don't have to have played assassins as my main character archetype to read posts from players who do, and who admit they are comfortably justified with simply ganking and corpsehiding, then pointing to the rules, no mention of post-abduction RP anywhere, which is, again, not only not a guarantee, but so rare it's not expected.

I also don't think it's inevitable that all conflict breaks down into ganks, but it only has to happen to someone once for them to lose faith in the "spirit of the rules" protecting them any longer. My own experience is not in being ganked and coming here to complain about it, but rather trying to deescalate or negotiate IC. More often than not it goes nowhere, whether it's before someone gets ganked and corpse hidden or after. People just psyche themselves up to the point they want to get the gank and hide over with so they never have to think about it again.

So, circling back to the start of my post, changing the paradigm requires more sympathy from both sides as far as mindsets go. No one player on either side of the fence is to blame for everyone else's actions, and divvying us up into tribes isn't how this should work.

Something that made the whole process seem less gamey and more narratively driven, particularly when its got the potential to be so impactful, seems beneficial to me.

This is where I'm at with it too. The systems surrounding all conflict feel bare. It tends to feel more like a black hole of RP and an afterthought, wherein staff hope players will do right by others, but that's rarely what actually happens, and more people realise it than ever with the server being more populated and connected than ever these days.
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APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2021, 12:47:55 PM »
The PvP thing is a matter of experience, I guess. It's mostly about making an effort to communicate with the other player in a way that makes the choice between de-escalation and escalation clear -- but also documenting your communication with the DMs so if someone turns around and abuses your trust OOC, you can point out that fact to the DMs. I've had positive results with this approach, but it's something I learned even before PotM, playing in games with a far more aggressive and free-for-all PvP approach.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2021, 01:52:43 PM »
I've personally noticed less of all this in such games. This is the first one with a corpse mechanic and a requirement to hostile anyone or opt-in beforehand, and it was a bit of a culture shock to find out people were waiting after death to know what comes next for their character. It's a lot simpler when death means death, but this approach would go against everything this server is about.

I think most would really prefer to not have to log all their interactions. It makes the game feel less natural if instead of logging in to have fun, you have to build up a case file on everyone who crosses your character. You could stand to gain, but the likelihood of having the other party correct their behaviour, rather than a DM admitting "that sounds very unfortunate but it is not against the rules," makes that not worth it unless you just like logging for the sake of it.

All these added steps have to exist because of the grey area created by lackluster mechanics. Without blaming anyone in particular, if this is chicken or egg, I think it's the gameplay of PvP encounters and the rules that created the mentality, and I'd like to see it opposed by more than a few forumgoers and a handful of staff members. I don't want rules that make people have to go out of their way to do things their character wouldn't, or new gameplay mechanics that make it impossible to actually kill PCs, but I would like to have more than a suggestion by the staff that "it's the nice thing to do" with the opposite being frowned upon (to no meaningful end nor satisfaction for the wronged).
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King_Abear

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2021, 02:12:58 PM »
Also, yes, nerf IGMS.

Well, I can't argue with this.
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tylernwn

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2021, 05:53:27 PM »
Also, yes, nerf IGMS.

Well, I can't argue with this.

Honestly, if this was nerfed any harder, just remove the spell from the game. But it would not stop a warded caster from killing an unwarded player. We would just shift the complaining to Horrid Wilting, The Fogs spells, Polar Ray, the Orb spells, etc.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 05:56:59 PM by tylernwn »

Bad_Bud

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2021, 07:23:13 PM »
I haven't read through this thread but I will comment on the initial post.

There was always meant to be a 6 second period where a character could not be killed after going unconscious. This mechanic was bugged, so I fixed it.

Initially, I made an exception to this rule and set the grace period for PvP to only 2 seconds. Mechanically, this is because this is the amount of time between flurries (waves of attacks). So if someone was in a fight and did not want to corpse the target, it would give a small amount of time to back off without accidentally killing the target.

In testing, it turned out that knocking a character unconscious actually breaks combat, so the earliest you can attack a character after reducing them to 0 hit points is roughly 6 seconds, though this may be slightly variable depending on which part of the attack round you are in when the combat action gets canceled.

Since a smaller window for PvP seemed to bear no practical benefit, it was removed, and the grace period was left at 6 seconds for everything. As a result, this also means a wizard can, for instance, use Isaac's Greater Missile Storm on a target without instantly corpsing them (previously this would almost always corpse a target), which I think is a huge benefit and provides room for more roleplay in PvP for spellcasters without feeling like they've reached for the nuclear option.

The only instance of PvP this effects on paper is when a player would corpse another target in a single round, which wasn't even guaranteed before, and the only way to remove this would be to have no grace period for PvP at all. Even then, if you happened to hit a target unconscious to within 0 to -9 hp, it would still break the combat round and you would still be waiting 6 seconds to kill them. The benefits of having a grace period for PvP vastly outweigh the edge cases where someone might corpse another person in a single round, so I don't see any reason to change the way it works right now.

Mayvind

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2021, 07:34:11 PM »
This is very passionate post to kill other players !  :shock: