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Author Topic: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed  (Read 1958 times)

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2021, 07:13:02 PM »
6 seconds before body grab I can handle.

But if you are outnumbered in PvP, the other guy can just keep healing downed ally before you can corpse them.
At the very least there should be a 6 second period before you can heal them, that would make it "fair" when its 2 vs 1.

Even then this change gives even further advantage to the gankers, who are usually outnumbering their target.

Offence is always more powerful than defence in this game, though. Even in a battle where everyone is prepared, healing just can't outdo damage forever, not even with the AC people can reach. Potions and spell slots provoke attacks of opportunity, are not infinite and they can only be used at most twice per round, where attacks are free, can be done more frequently, can critical strike, and are queued automatically. I just don't see a situation where someone keeps getting up as realistic. They are continually blinded by being downed so there's really nothing they can do except run a few feet each time, and it's not like the person healing them is invulnerable anyway.

It would be different if healing and attacks could be done simultaneously, but they can't be, you have a time budget to work against, and whether it's a gank or an even fight, it's generally on the attacker to mess up & on the defender to make all the right decisions just to survive.
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Phantasia

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2021, 07:28:57 PM »
I think it's a little absurd to believe a person and subsequent corpse/unconscious body can just disappear a body in a room full of prepared individuals, or at least, competent individuals that are at rest but ready to spring at any moment. Even if only one other person is present that isn't your mark, even. As it was, the body phases in and people still don't know what's going on, and by the time they do, a player can be half way across the current domain they're in without any pursuits or something.

This 6 second grace period is fine as it is and sure, maybe it makes "assassinations" harder, but they never should be a matter of "can I get away unseen before anyone knows what's going on with a body slung over my shoulder--I mean stuffing it very quickly into a magic bag which would probably take me like 3-5 rounds to do anyway."

This is just an unrealistic scenario for even the most skilled assassins in Ravenloft's canon. Consider what could happen beyond the scope of the mechanical game where "corpse robbing" was an easy feat to accomplish for the prepared character. You can drop someone with two slick blows and flurry into nothing for 6 seconds, sure.

In that time frame, just about anything could happen. This is the point initiative is rolled, and if someone's faster than you, you might just find yourself in trouble and I think this should be mirrored in any NWN server in some way. People can react, cast spells at you, dispel darkness, dive over the body to prevent you from getting it (you have to kill them now too), and just about anything else. To say that these individuals, if present, can't have time to react, is discrediting their ability as a character and as a player.

I for one have no issue with assassins, PrC or otherwise, having to actually set up a "perfect scenario" to live up to their deadly reputations rather than just using a consequence of the game mechanics to disappear with a body within literal seconds with or without this change.

It is far more gratifying for both parties if they see the kill unfolding before their very eyes rather than a splotch of darkness and a loading screen.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 07:33:17 PM by Phantasia »
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APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2021, 07:35:12 PM »
Except you don't need powerful potions to do this, you're practically guaranteed to get someone back on their feet with a Cure Serious Wounds (and still pretty likely with weaker healing); people do go around with stacks of those. And every time they get back up it restarts the 6 second timer.

The consequence of this fact is going to be what King Pickle almost alludes to: it will encourage bigger ganking squads and thus risks escalating the scope of conflicts because skillful solo assassinations and "surgical strikes" have been made more difficult. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I think King Pickle has a point: if people can't be killed in that six second window, they probably shouldn't be healable then, either. That prevents the possibility of a trampoline mechanic.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 07:37:13 PM by APorg »
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2021, 07:39:33 PM »
The power of the potion doesn't really make a difference. They aren't getting up with health enough to survive one or two more attacks.

The trampoline strategy affords the defending party nothing really. Keeping someone alive for a little longer only counts if they eventually escape, but casting haste or jaunt and running away isn't as simple as it seems after they're already getting knocked down and blinded.
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APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2021, 07:42:28 PM »
You've completely ignored my actual point: the trampoline encourages escalation. This isn't good, the whole PvP structure exists to slow it down.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2021, 07:52:36 PM »
I'm less ignoring and more disagreeing. From what I've seen, the structure does not slow down escalation. Retaliatory attacks are already fair game and PvP opt-ins are usually obtained months in advance, so any kind of natural progression has long been compromised. Corpse hides are typically a first offence sort of punishment for a victim, too. Making it harder to kill people with only a single ganker and maybe a single buffer in play isn't going to do much against any of that.

As far as bigger gank squads, well it's arguable if that's a real issue. I can't imagine it's actually a problem that they are interacting with more people in the context of imminent PvP, or interacting with anyone at all in the first place if they're less confident about a successful solo gank now. A lot of the time, people who are pro-gank come on the forums and talk about how the surprise factor is their only strength.

It more or less falls down to a matter of taste. PvP involving larger groups of players and because the system became ever so slightly more gank-proof is not a bad thing in my opinion. Escape is more realistic in a large group PvP scenario than a 1-on-1 gank. When people escape and word spreads of battles and assassinations occurring that way, it's much more natural than everyone finding out who the killer is only when the victim finally gets resurrected.

If that consequence is real, so is the consequence that conflict-prone factions start recruiting more and working together more, which is a good thing since most factions are understaffed and timezone issues exacerbate that.
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King Pickle

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2021, 07:56:41 PM »
Offence is always more powerful than defence in this game, though. Even in a battle where everyone is prepared, healing just can't outdo damage forever, not even with the AC people can reach. Potions and spell slots provoke attacks of opportunity, are not infinite and they can only be used at most twice per round, where attacks are free, can be done more frequently, can critical strike, and are queued automatically. I just don't see a situation where someone keeps getting up as realistic. They are continually blinded by being downed so there's really nothing they can do except run a few feet each time, and it's not like the person healing them is invulnerable anyway.

It would be different if healing and attacks could be done simultaneously, but they can't be, you have a time budget to work against, and whether it's a gank or an even fight, it's generally on the attacker to mess up & on the defender to make all the right decisions just to survive.
You can throw in two greater restoration scrolls in 6 seconds. They would heal 260 hp and wouldn't even give attack of opportunity.
The blinded character can also heal, ethereal jaunt, hide on plain sight or do what ever their thing is.

The point is, you already took that character down. But because they have regeneration or a buddy, you simply can't finish them off and move on to the next target to actually win the fight.
Meanwhile you your self are probably already low on hp at this point and have used your best spells or whatever tricks you have.

Yeah, the advantage is on the attacker(s), so why do you want them have even more of an edge?
Its the attackers who choose when they do it, so under the current circumstances they aren't going to attack you when you are with your friends who can heal you during that 6 seconds. They will get you when you are alone, which is how most PvP already happens.

If you don't want the ninja ganks where assassin casts darkness and poofs away before people can react, fine, add some timer to the corpse.
It should be slow to move a corpse.

My issue is with how fighting multiple opponents has suddenly become even harder.

APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2021, 08:01:41 PM »
I assure you that I am not the only person reading this thread and thinking "Right, I can't just kill the target quickly now, I have to be ready to kill all allies and any potential healers".

This is not a good direction for the PvP framework to go in. I'm all for making assassinations more realistic, but this is encouraging all-in. This is a perfect example of the law of unintended consequences.


EDIT:

Quote
If you don't want the ninja ganks where assassin casts darkness and poofs away before people can react, fine, add some timer to the corpse.
It should be slow to move a corpse.

Right. Or make corpses heavier. Double their weight, maybe.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 08:04:38 PM by APorg »
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2021, 08:31:40 PM »
Offence is always more powerful than defence in this game, though. Even in a battle where everyone is prepared, healing just can't outdo damage forever, not even with the AC people can reach. Potions and spell slots provoke attacks of opportunity, are not infinite and they can only be used at most twice per round, where attacks are free, can be done more frequently, can critical strike, and are queued automatically. I just don't see a situation where someone keeps getting up as realistic. They are continually blinded by being downed so there's really nothing they can do except run a few feet each time, and it's not like the person healing them is invulnerable anyway.

It would be different if healing and attacks could be done simultaneously, but they can't be, you have a time budget to work against, and whether it's a gank or an even fight, it's generally on the attacker to mess up & on the defender to make all the right decisions just to survive.
You can throw in two greater restoration scrolls in 6 seconds. They would heal 260 hp and wouldn't even give attack of opportunity.
The blinded character can also heal, ethereal jaunt, hide on plain sight or do what ever their thing is.

The point is, you already took that character down. But because they have regeneration or a buddy, you simply can't finish them off and move on to the next target to actually win the fight.
Meanwhile you your self are probably already low on hp at this point and have used your best spells or whatever tricks you have.

Yeah, the advantage is on the attacker(s), so why do you want them have even more of an edge?
Its the attackers who choose when they do it, so under the current circumstances they aren't going to attack you when you are with your friends who can heal you during that 6 seconds. They will get you when you are alone, which is how most PvP already happens.

If you don't want the ninja ganks where assassin casts darkness and poofs away before people can react, fine, add some timer to the corpse.
It should be slow to move a corpse.

My issue is with how fighting multiple opponents has suddenly become even harder.

Scrolls are one per round. Also any scroll as powerful as greater restoration are not common. Two heal potions for 120 hp I can see, but if you use rare items or high circle spells to wake people up in PvP, you're still throwing away the initiative. You can only do so many of these before you run out yourself. Whoever wakes up still has to make concentration checks or not get knockdowned before they get their spells/scrolls/potions off to escape, leaving whoever was protecting them on their own until they can heal and fight for themselves.

What makes you think the attacker will be low on health and resources if the defending side couldn't keep up? Attacks are queued, actions besides this have to be timed meticulously with another player wailing on you which is pretty difficult to do if you get surprised.

I just don't see why anyone should be given a sure victory if they, on their own, run into two or more people who are about equal in strength to them when together, and decide to fight. If you can't pay the opportunity cost, you can probably afford to wait. Players with a gank-happy mindset weren't throwing themselves into crowds of people "to make it fair" as it is. This idea that ejecting another player from the playing field should be quick and easy has always struck me as absurd, and while fairness itself may or may not have a place in PvP balance, I see nothing unfair about a ganker failing to kill someone because people keep healing their victim. I see a ganker that made a silly decision, and I see them doubling down on it, perhaps because they feel entitled to kill someone just because going first typically guarantees success.

I don't think this is making it easier to gank just because people can make bigger gank squads. They were always able to do that, but they didn't because the more people know about PvP, the more likely it is someone betrays or flakes. Also, it's very time consuming to roam the map hunting for your quarry. You can spend hours on the server looking for someone even if you have confirmed they're still online. I am fully behind the notion that attackers will have to put more time and resources into this kind of thing, and risk more of their people in the action.

I assure you that I am not the only person reading this thread and thinking "Right, I can't just kill the target quickly now, I have to be ready to kill all allies and any potential healers".

This is not a good direction for the PvP framework to go in. I'm all for making assassinations more realistic, but this is encouraging all-in. This is a perfect example of the law of unintended consequences.

I would never have contested that point in the first place. It was the first thing I thought of, too, the idea that group combats are more common now. I see nothing wrong with it. If you had no qualms icing one player by surprise, you probably were okay with killing the rest of them even if you're only going to take the bodies you can physically carry before getting stuck at walk speed.

Like I said before, I don't think there is a framework to PvP. It just is the way it is because there's so little regulation surrounding it and the mechanics aren't very well developed. And if the gameplay moves toward all-in rather than noncommittal jumpscare style kills, I'm not in opposition.

Most people just can't react as quickly and effectively as it takes to repel a buffed ganker, and I think it's completely fine if assassinations become very difficult and the act itself of finishing off a "weak link" in group combat is a time-sensitive, deliberate thing. I was already questioning everything that comes before absconding with the dead body.

edit: These posts are getting pretty huge. I mean no disrespect, and I can identify my bias toward both slower-paced combat, capable groups with real synergy between them banding together to fight, conflicts that glow hotter for more people to experience, and so on. I don't think that this change was necessarily intended, nor do I think it's a perfect solution. But I don't think the consequences you've listed are at all harmful and we may have to agree to disagree on that point. The only way I would change my viewpoint on this would require a full overhaul of the game mechanics anyway.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 08:42:57 PM by SardineTheAncestor »
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APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2021, 09:06:49 PM »
Like I said before, I don't think there is a framework to PvP.

The PvP rules spring from a philosophy. You can claim that it's badly articulated and badly enforced, but you can't argue such a framework doesn't exist; I have had DMs step in to enforce the rules, both in my favour and against me, when I'd crossed a line. Indeed we've seen the rules get refined and changed as a result of actions that challenged the ideas behind them. One of the key ideas in that philosophy is that of responsible escalation.

I know of players who have chosen to PvP solo versus larger groups because they felt that was more responsible than inviting a gank squad.

I know of some players who even feared that inviting a gank squad would lead to DMs nulling PvP for breaking the rules.

Now I'll admit that all the above are anecdotes, some personal, some second hand. But those are positive ideas, and we shouldn't be going away from them.

It's fine for PvP assassinations to be hard for the right reasons. This isn't one.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2021, 09:43:15 PM »
I can't wrap my head around the idea that there is "too large a group for PvP" after my own experiences. This isn't just an issue of inconsistent enforcement for me, I'm just not content with the state of the rules and I see too many contradictions for there to be the redundancy needed for such a sensitive part of RP.

Responsible escalation never seemed to come into it. Deliberate deescalation only really happens when there's so many people that are a real threat that people get tired of risking every single moment on the server and contact the other side. That's so rare to see and even if it becomes more common, it will remain more poetic that people decided to actually interact rather than immediately jump to hostilities after a certain threshold has been crossed.

I can't really picture any ways to slow down combat or make assassinations more difficult that won't just break the entire server. The game simply isn't set up for PvP to be satisfying for both sides, there has to be a winner and a loser, and there pretty much has to be a corpse hider and a corpse hidden. Sounds defeatist and utterly pessimistic but exceptions don't change the rules. We can see players trying to do better in noncompetitive environments all the time, trying to promote atmosphere is typically a given when your character isn't seconds from being corpsehidden if you make some mistake, but all the rules do at the moment, I feel, is push people toward doing the thing that is, according to the staff themselves, seen in a negative light but not actionable.

Say this changes or is axed completely - what actually stops people from making a big gank squad because their target is never alone? It is not the real threat, but the perceived threat of having the PvP result nullified. Realistically, we know PvP becomes an option when one side refuses to opt out when given the chance. Anyone with IC precedent to be present for the attack & assist either side is likely to be found justified in doing so, even if the staff does decide to question them. The size of the group doesn't affect the results of the staff team's review. There's no rule for it, and I don't mean to dismiss your anecdotes, but they don't set much of a precedent. The rules and what the staff say set the precedent. If getting a group to gank someone is at all likely to be a violation of the rules (in letter or in spirit), then it will be against the rules with or without this change. If the rules don't change, the staff's position isn't going to change. The team isn't likely to be sympathetic enough to those affected by the change that suddenly groups are seen as no longer breaking the rules when previously they were. But they wouldn't have been breaking the rules.
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APorg

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2021, 09:56:55 PM »
I have to sleep so I won't offer a full reply to your post; it's clear we've had different experiences of PvP on this server.

At any rate, as we both agree that this will encourage gank squads, there's no real argument of substance. It's up to the Dev/DM team to draw their own conclusions.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2021, 10:02:19 PM »
I'm satisfied with that. With respect to our join date disparity and the sheer scale of the server, there's no way we could have had identical experiences.
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King Pickle

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2021, 10:02:52 PM »
Scrolls are one per round. Also any scroll as powerful as greater restoration are not common. Two heal potions for 120 hp I can see, but if you use rare items or high circle spells to wake people up in PvP, you're still throwing away the initiative. You can only do so many of these before you run out yourself. Whoever wakes up still has to make concentration checks or not get knockdowned before they get their spells/scrolls/potions off to escape, leaving whoever was protecting them on their own until they can heal and fight for themselves.

What makes you think the attacker will be low on health and resources if the defending side couldn't keep up? Attacks are queued, actions besides this have to be timed meticulously with another player wailing on you which is pretty difficult to do if you get surprised.
You can do twice as much with haste. Scrolls don't need concentration checks and spellcaster on defensive casting mode doesn't give attacks of opportunity.
Items like Quintessence and Curative don't give attack of opportunity.
Scrolls of Heal are more common than greater restoration and unlike potions, they heal 110.
Neither are so rare that I wouldn't have several of both on each of my characters who can use them.
Then there are skills like Lay on Hands that heal far more.
Do I really need to list everything here?
You CAN get the downed character to full health during the 6 seconds and you can initiate the healing action before the PC who did the downing can switch targets, which always restarts the combat round.

You are not throwing away initiative. You already had it and used it to get your enemy low on HP and spells. Now you are healing your ally and securing victory.


I just don't see why anyone should be given a sure victory if they, on their own, run into two or more people who are about equal in strength to them when together, and decide to fight. If you can't pay the opportunity cost, you can probably afford to wait. Players with a gank-happy mindset weren't throwing themselves into crowds of people "to make it fair" as it is. This idea that ejecting another player from the playing field should be quick and easy has always struck me as absurd, and while fairness itself may or may not have a place in PvP balance, I see nothing unfair about a ganker failing to kill someone because people keep healing their victim. I see a ganker that made a silly decision, and I see them doubling down on it, perhaps because they feel entitled to kill someone just because going first typically guarantees success.

SURE victory? Where? Its the gankers who decide when and where the fight takes place.
I was referring a situation where two gankers attack you when you are alone. They underestimate you, you manage to beat one of them, but get ganked anyway because now the pair is made immortal by the 6 second rule.

I don't think this is making it easier to gank just because people can make bigger gank squads. They were always able to do that, but they didn't because the more people know about PvP, the more likely it is someone betrays or flakes. Also, it's very time consuming to roam the map hunting for your quarry. You can spend hours on the server looking for someone even if you have confirmed they're still online. I am fully behind the notion that attackers will have to put more time and resources into this kind of thing, and risk more of their people in the action.
Mostly the gankers outnumber the ganked. This 6 second rule gives them further advantage and makes your ability to survive a gank even less. I have never been attacked by a party smaller then my own. Some times one on one. Mostly two or more on one. This makes it harder for me to defend my self and less risky for the attackers, who at the very least can just heal, retreat and try again. At best I can escape but winning against odds is even harder now then before.

MAB77

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2021, 10:20:00 PM »
I'm reading a lot of nonsense here so let me set a few things straight.

1) The goal of this system is merely to prevent any kind of instant death. A very unpleasant situation for anyone on the receiving end.

2) The 6 seconds protection applies only in PvE situations. Because sometimes NPCs stay locked on a downed PC and keeps attacking instead of switching target. This gives players a better chance of survival, and avoids passing straight away from 0 to -10.

3) If the cause of death is a player or DM possessed, the system protects for 1.8 seconds. This is to prevent multi-attack flurries from insta-killing people in duels and stuff like that.

Though to be honest, even if it was a full 6 seconds, even if you have to wait for the next round of combat for the killing blow or the corpse to spawn, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the poor assaulter which decides to snuff the life of another player and to scamper with the corpse without granting anyone the time to react or roleplay around the situation. Note that the delay doesn,t changes much of anything to begin with. In 99.99% (friendly duels excepted) of PvP incidents I've witnessed, the attacker always do so with certainty of victory. We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:27:56 PM by MAB77 »
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Dardonas

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2021, 10:33:53 PM »
Quote
Though to be honest, even if it was a full 6 seconds, even if you have to wait for the next round of combat for the killing blow or the corpse to spawn, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the poor assaulter which decides to snuff the life of another player and to scamper with the corpse without granting anyone the time to react or roleplay around the situation.

I am going to sound harsh here, but I think this opinion is just out of touch with what PvP has devolved into on the server.  This is the system that the developers and DMs have embraced when consequences like corpsehiding and soft-closure are on the table when characters are such a time and roleplay investment in a system that does not facilitate reaching impactful levels with ease.  I won't digress the thread to that, but that is the crux of it.

Roleplay happens in PvP before and after the actual mechanical PvP.  That's how it's worked for the short two years I've been on the server and how it seems to continue to work.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not defending the fairness of the situation you mentioned.  I agree it is scummy, but its a scumminess that is facilitated by the monster that's been created. Note that a large portion of the thread isn't just about taking a corpse but just the situation of attacking a downed player in general which isn't always body snatching or corpsehiding.  If someone is trying to have an impactful scene, such as just an assassination in general, then even that 1.8 seconds kinda ruins and cheapens the impact of that scene, doesn't it?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:40:53 PM by Dardonas »

MJ_Johansson

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2021, 10:37:04 PM »
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Yes please.
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King Pickle

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2021, 10:47:19 PM »
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Yes please.

Or not. The coin comes with two sides. Many times I've grabbed a corpse from hungry werewolves or such and ran away.
Can equally happen in PvP.

Maybe instead make the corpses in to containers so they can't be placed inside a container.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2021, 10:49:16 PM »
You can do twice as much with haste. Scrolls don't need concentration checks and spellcaster on defensive casting mode doesn't give attacks of opportunity.

Scrolls can be interrupted if you knock someone down early enough, though, and I'm pretty sure they are not subject to haste in that they let you do two per round. You get just one.

But I digress. You are right, there are other ways to heal people with more common items. PvP is an extreme scenario by the server's standards, more extreme than any dungeon generally, so throwing all you have at it is reasonable. The only question is, will you have time when someone jumps you and is wailing on you while all you do is stand there and hope you can outheal their damage? That's what I mean by throwing away initiative. It just isn't likely that, unless they expected and prepared for the assassin, they're just going to be able to effectively fight back. It's not reasonable to assume they would succeed at doing so, even if they blow a bunch of expensive consumables. They're more likely to die after wasting those consumables or just escape.

SURE victory? Where? Its the gankers who decide when and where the fight takes place.
I was referring a situation where two gankers attack you when you are alone. They underestimate you, you manage to beat one of them, but get ganked anyway because now the pair is made immortal by the 6 second rule.

Yes, I believe it's a sure victory because the gankers decide when and where it takes place. They don't even have to initiate if the odds aren't in their favour, so they wait until it's certain. If they do, since they're ahead from the beginning, they can typically leave any time they want, unless they overcommit after underestimating their target. Underestimating a target and paying dearly for it is perfectly normal and I fully believe the math supports that the average self-buffed/potion-buffed character is generally capable of knocking out two unbuffed people at a similar level caught by surprise.

I arrived at that conclusion knowing how easy it is to KO someone of an equal level within one or two rounds even if they are buffed, it just takes a little luck. Unbuffed characters on this server tend to be very frail even if they have people around them. And you never want to have to deal with someone who's full buffed if you're only partially prepared with a couple extended spells meant to make your buff dance quicker if someone else gets jumped and you want to respond to it. It would be much better to get out of there or finish buffing and then look at the situation before throwing yourself at it, no? This is a luxury you rarely enjoy when defending from a gank, and squandering it is almost never a good idea.

Mostly the gankers outnumber the ganked. This 6 second rule gives them further advantage and makes your ability to survive a gank even less. I have never been attacked by a party smaller then my own. Some times one on one. Mostly two or more on one. This makes it harder for me to defend my self and less risky for the attackers, who at the very least can just heal, retreat and try again. At best I can escape but winning against odds is even harder now then before.

That much I can understand and sympathise with. You are right that the party with more numbers will have more of an advantage than they already did with this change. I think that's a good thing as far as getting jumped goes, because it gives you a chance to stop someone being instantly murdered, wake them up if you're quick, and let them run while you try to fight back, however unlikely it is you win when caught by surprised.

But it's already so unlikely that if you get ganked while outnumbered, you'll actually knock someone out. Escape is always the better option, trying to fight a gank is almost never a good idea unless you were expecting it.

I am going to sound harsh here, but I think this opinion is just out of touch with what PvP has devolved into on the server.

Many thanks to MAB for elaborating. Regarding his opinion on the matter - I do not believe any mechanical change intended to combat this "gank 'n' grab" behaviour is negative. I realise that we will gain nothing by arguing about it forever and the devs have their own priorities, but I don't believe it should stay that way.

There should be all sorts of prevention methods, not to steer people in the other direction, but literally restrict it if it is seen as undesirable.

What about this - if you try to pick up a corpse, it invokes the same script that makes it take several seconds to pick up a herb. Even if the player remains stealthed until they succeed in picking up the corpse, it gives people time to dispel darkness or use a buff that lets them see through it, and detect the assassin. One of many examples where you could introduce counterplay without asking people to do something that might break character.

In this case it doesn't matter if you are rescuing someone or not. The gameplay mechanic is implemented and you have to play around it, PvE or PvP.

Someone else can probably come up with more/better solutions but that is one I think would be great if you want to stop gank 'n' grabs.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:51:34 PM by SardineTheAncestor »
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MAB77

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2021, 10:52:21 PM »
I am going to sound harsh here, but I think this opinion is just out of touch with what PvP has devolved into on the server.  This is the system that the developers and DMs have embraced when consequences like corpsehiding and soft-closure are on the table when characters are such a time and roleplay investment in a system that does not facilitate reaching impactful levels with ease.  I won't digress the thread to that, but that is the crux of it.

Roleplay happens in PvP before and after the actual mechanical PvP.  That's how it's worked for the short two years I've been on the server and how it seems to continue to work.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not defending the fairness of the situation you mentioned.  I agree it is scummy, but its a scumminess that is facilitated by the monster that's been created. Note that a large portion of the thread isn't just about taking a corpse but just the situation of attacking a downed player in general which isn't always body snatching or corpsehiding.  If someone is trying to have an impactful scene, such as just an assassination in general, then even that 1.8 seconds kinda ruins and cheapens the impact of that scene, doesn't it?

That PvP has devolved over the years I can only agree, but it has little to do with either rules or mechanics. Though this is a whole different discussion on its own.

The 1.8 seconds is a mechanical limitation of the game engine. It's the smallest amount of time we could use to achieve the desired effect.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2021, 10:59:43 PM »
I think the monster was created long before any kind of grace period was implemented, though that may not be what you were suggesting.

I also don't think the impact is cheapened or ruined if things do not happen instantly before our eyes. As far as RP goes, instant gratification is usually a really bad thing. Just being able to instantly do away with someone because your RP is "I consider myself an assassin, and I drank all these potions" may be impactful but it's still cheap.

If the staff generally agrees that gank 'n' grabs are an issue, there really should be a feature implemented that prevents them. I don't know how you can prevent the gank, but I think if you prevent the grab from being so quick and easy, you start to walk the problem back and force people to deal with the risks, which right now aren't as dramatic as they're made out to be.
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Kleomenes

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2021, 11:12:05 PM »
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Yes please.

+1

MJ_Johansson

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2021, 11:23:18 PM »
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Yes please.

Or not. The coin comes with two sides. Many times I've grabbed a corpse from hungry werewolves or such and ran away.
Can equally happen in PvP.

Maybe instead make the corpses in to containers so they can't be placed inside a container.

To be clear, I was voting for a rule, not a mechanical system. And would obviously only refer to hostile -players-, not werewolves or what have you.
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slash

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2021, 11:29:42 PM »
I'm reading a lot of nonsense here so let me set a few things straight.

1) The goal of this system is merely to prevent any kind of instant death. A very unpleasant situation for anyone on the receiving end.

2) The 6 seconds protection applies only in PvE situations. Because sometimes NPCs stay locked on a downed PC and keeps attacking instead of switching target. This gives players a better chance of survival, and avoids passing straight away from 0 to -10.

3) If the cause of death is a player or DM possessed, the system protects for 1.8 seconds. This is to prevent multi-attack flurries from insta-killing people in duels and stuff like that.

Though to be honest, even if it was a full 6 seconds, even if you have to wait for the next round of combat for the killing blow or the corpse to spawn, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the poor assaulter which decides to snuff the life of another player and to scamper with the corpse without granting anyone the time to react or roleplay around the situation. Note that the delay doesn,t changes much of anything to begin with. In 99.99% (friendly duels excepted) of PvP incidents I've witnessed, the attacker always do so with certainty of victory. We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

I couldn't agree more. I'll be honest, I really don't see the benefit of making assassinations any easier. In my time here on the server I have assassinated people, been assassinated, and watched assassinations happen in front of me many times and with maybe one or two exceptions they have always, without fail, been really just an unpleasant experience all around. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the idea that someone should be able to run up to someone, corpse them, and dart off with their corpse before people get an adequate chance to RP or even react to the situation is completely toxic, and frankly I think it would be best if this six second rule was applied to PvP scenarios, and even increased to ten or even fifteen seconds.
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Kleomenes

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Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2021, 11:35:01 PM »
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC