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Author Topic: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better  (Read 9652 times)

Sinthepie

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2021, 01:38:35 PM »
I honestly find the forums to be a hostile environment for discussions, because clearly, there are several types of players engaging in the conversation, the extremes being "let me dungeon" and "who cares about dungeons, I rp 24/7". We have managed to turn a suggestion to perhaps better the dungeoneering experience for large groups into a "let's penalize people for playing the game" discussion.
The server is not lacking in RP content, because even though I complain about Dementlieu being the way it is, this is not everyone, this is the people I have come across. This is some people curating the rp there. Thus I find my fun in other things whether it is coming up with my own little rp or going to dungeons with a person or two, or more.
I do not understand why so many people want to stop people from having fun in dungeons.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2021, 01:53:14 PM »
These threads typically go sour when people start talking about individuals and their mindsets rather than focusing on the argument at hand.

It's completely fine to enjoy dungeoning deep into blind drive. It's a revisionist viewpoint - a constructed memory, Mandela effect, whatever you want to call it - that blind drive was put in place to stop people from dungeoning "too much."

It's completely fine to enjoy larger groups as opposed to the normal/optimal party size of 5. You make a tradeoff, though. Less XP for an easier clear.

Also, before I forget: the server has in fact evolved for the growing playerbase in some ways that aren't just adding more dungeons. The addition of beguiler makes it so parties who feel they need a rogue can also have a caster with several vital buffs and steroids, like imp. invis & haste. This was added to a server environment where most rogues were building & playing as noncombatants, rather than a melee class. It's now easier than ever to re-up certain buffs after getting dispelled, and haste is now more accessible than ever, too. This helps groups form without having exactly the same party combo every time.

When I say "hostile game environment," I mean tougher ambient spawns that patrol more, not people being jerks to each other ingame/on the forums (nor am I encouraging anyone to grief). I don't just mean Darklings that pop out and death attack you, but a little more show vs. tell on the "fear the night" front. I noticed some very powerful spawns were recently replaced with far weaker and easier to avoid ones. That's fine, it's alright to be chased and threatened, but not killed. But there should certainly be more spooky obstacles out in the night, and it was sad to see the "thick mists" spawns get nerfed. I also like the idea of a "supermax" spawn level for at least certain dungeons where enemies would spew forth and start patrolling the zone since they're over capacity in there. :p
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Evendur

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2021, 04:49:03 PM »
Having a cap that still gives minimal XP and "experienced gained" messages does seem a bit confusing.
If the XP message were to disappear and a different rest message were to be displayed after reaching the cap (something like, "you have not learned anything at all since the last rest") that would most likely keep quite a lot from grinding dungeons for XP (instead of fun)

So instead of killing 1000 monsters for 1000 xp by grinding every dungeon on the server for days, most would probably wait a week and clear one dungeon, thereby leaving others to have more fun with the content. Personally it took me a while until I noticed there is a cap at all and after noticing it, I did avoid dungeons for a few days and spend my time with other things. I dont see why it would hurt to help everyone come to the realization that they are not getting any significant XP by making the rest messages more clear and removing the minimal XP gain that is still there after the cap is reached. In the process it will also lead to groups getting shuffled and thereby making sure more players get to experience the content, even without bringing giant sized groups to places that were designed for less then half the number.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 05:51:29 PM by Evendur »

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2021, 05:17:08 PM »
Having a cap that still gives minimal XP and "experienced gained" messages does seem a bit confusing.
If the XP message were to disappear and a different rest message were to be displayed after reaching the cap (something like, "you have not learned anything at all since the last rest") that would most likely keep quite a lot from grinding dungeons or XP (instead of fun)

So instead of killing 1000 monsters for 1000 xp by grinding every dungeon on the server for days, most would probably wait a week and clear one dungeon, thereby leaving others to have more fun with the content. Personally it took me a while until I noticed there is a cap at all and after noticing it, I did avoid dungeons for a few days and spend my time with other things. I dont see why it would hurt to help everyone come to the realization that they are not getting any significant XP by making the rest messages more clear and removing the minimal XP gain that is still there after the cap is reached. In the process it will also lead to groups getting shuffled and thereby making sure more players get to experience the content, even without bringing giant sized groups to places that were designed for less then half the number.

THIS!

Thanks for putting clearer than me.

Each one plays as one's wishes. But grinding non stop to "reach lvl 20 fast" is destroying the small amount of dungeons we have to play.
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Nezmith

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2021, 06:43:39 PM »
I think the biggest problem with the way any experience reduction works is the effect it has on group cohesion. A lot of people struggle with maintaining IC friend circles because of problems with availability or generally exclusive behavior from well-defined cliques at higher levels. A defined hard-cap at or near 0 XP (and this forum post has been enlightening to many) would effectively destroy people's interest in dungeoning at all and generally make the entire end-game prohibitive to everyone but certain tight friend groups.

Consider, for example, a friend group that consists of a fighter, a rogue, a cleric, a wizard, and a druid. They all dungeon together and everything's great. One night, the rogue decides to stay up a little late and runs a few dungeons with another group because someone he met asked for a trapper. Well, he hit blind drive and capped at 0 XP before the rest of his usual party, so he's out of the group for a bit while he figures out how to make that go away with other people who aren't dungeoning. The wizard sees the rogue's experience and decides to preemptively focus on RP so he doesn't even hit mentally exhausted. That's two people out, now you've got the fighter, the cleric, and the druid. Now your option's to either find replacements for them or focus on content you can manage as a trio. Chances are you won't find a rogue for awhile so let's just say you pick up wizard 2. A week goes by and finally the whole group is on blind drive except for wizard 2. Wizard 1 and the rogue are both off blind drive now and hook in with other groups who need their valued skills, running through their cycles of finding new friends that need their skills or spending IRL weeks off RPing. Wizard 2 rolls an alt because wizard 1 is taking all the groups for that level. Once the fighter and cleric are off blind drive, they find that the druid also rolled an alt and got more invested in them in the meantime. The fighter and cleric then spend 3 hours a day doing nothing in mist camp because none of their friends are around and few, if any, are available and want to drag them along for the ride. You keep that entire scenario running for 2 to 3 months and eventually your entire group is split up and you're playing with completely new people than when you started- that is, if you found any replacements and are playing the same character at all.

This isn't hyperbole or unrealistic. This is, in fact, how I already have observed all groups working for my past 2 years of playtime both organizing groups and being on the sideline in them. The entire mechanic as it stands is very effective at dismantling groups and stopping people from enjoying their characters enough to continue playing them. It is, at the same time, very effective at preventing the balance between players and the horror theme from spiralling out of control. People advertise their interest in a reduced level cap around level 13 or even 10, and I perfectly understand why. I also think that level imbalance is part of what makes NCEs so thrilling. If everyone is capable of becoming some unrivalled extraplanar entity after a few months of grinding, the horror theme completely disappears.

Honestly? If I were presented with this dilemma, I would hesitate to change anything in particular. I hate how groups get split up, and I hate that you can just talk to your barber to the point that you wake up one day and become a weapon master or can turn into a dragon, but I also think the overall theme is dependent on people constantly being lower levels. I also don't really want to see the level cap lowered either, because people who actually enjoy playing this game can get a satisfying challenge in what I'd consider are incredibly well-balanced dungeons up to level 20.

If we were to take a step towards leniency, I'd think for the sake of realism that XP from RP should be dramatically lowered and instead RP should count double or even more toward reducing the XP penalty from blind drive. In this way you'd get people roleplaying more and they'd move through tiers of dungeons a little faster, removing the need for them to grind those dungeons over and over, day in and day out. Though with the horror theme in mind, should we really be lenient? This simply sounds like a problem of lacking enough content for the current size playerbase.

That all being said, one of the biggest reasons I ran dungeons with blind drive is because I believed the XP cap stopped at 90% reduced experience. I'm one of those people who thought you could just 'power through'. Knowing now that it can potentially be reduced to 1 XP per mob simply makes me averse to playing my character all the time. Of course, that kind of information could have been displayed in actual numerical feedback in-game instead of the indecipherable 'experience gained' notices we currently get and probably dissuaded people much sooner. I'll agree with previous posters that this needs to be far more obvious.

This also made me think of another question of whether we should potentially consider increasing the level cap or increase the variety of templates for AMPCs so they can threaten people beyond western Barovia, but that probably deserves its own thread
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 07:07:42 PM by Nezmith »

Evendur

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2021, 07:11:37 PM »
The entire mechanic as it stands is very effective at dismantling groups [...]

Having to look for new groups and thereby including new character/players isnt exactly a bad thing and may as well be intended.

In any case, the XP cap already exists, its only that the rest and XP messages do not make it obvious, leading to players grinding without gaining significant XP, which most of them would likely not do if they were aware of it.

mooner

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2021, 07:12:25 PM »
Honestly? If I were presented with this dilemma, I would hesitate to change anything in particular. I hate how groups get split up, and I hate that you can just talk to your barber to the point that you wake up one day and become a weapon master or can turn into a dragon, but I also think the overall theme is dependent on people constantly being lower levels. I also don't really want to see the level cap lowered either, because people who actually enjoy playing this game can get a satisfying challenge in what I'd consider are incredibly well-balanced dungeons up to level 20.

If we were to take a step towards leniency, I'd think for the sake of realism that XP from RP should be dramatically lowered and instead RP should count double or even more toward reducing the XP penalty from blind drive. In this way you'd get people roleplaying more and they'd move through tiers of dungeons a little faster, removing the need for them to grind those dungeons over and over, day in and day out. Though with the horror theme in mind, should we really be lenient? This simply sounds like a problem of lacking enough content for the current size playerbase.

this feels like a very over-simplified view of things. i think you can have a very plausible and believable weapon master who doesn't dungeon at all and instead just studies and practices with their weapon. you can apply the inverse and say that going around wordlessly clearing dungeons shouldn't really give a WM character further understanding of ki, or that doing the same would necessarily bring out more of someone's draconic heritage

that suggestion might be more lenient in terms of dungeons, but rp xp is slow going as it is. lowering it dramatically would pretty much mean characters leaning more heavily on rp are effectively never going to level up, if you consider how long it takes already on characters that aren't played super frequently

Lexica

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2021, 07:24:02 PM »
Honestly? If I were presented with this dilemma, I would hesitate to change anything in particular. I hate how groups get split up, and I hate that you can just talk to your barber to the point that you wake up one day and become a weapon master or can turn into a dragon, but I also think the overall theme is dependent on people constantly being lower levels. I also don't really want to see the level cap lowered either, because people who actually enjoy playing this game can get a satisfying challenge in what I'd consider are incredibly well-balanced dungeons up to level 20.

If we were to take a step towards leniency, I'd think for the sake of realism that XP from RP should be dramatically lowered and instead RP should count double or even more toward reducing the XP penalty from blind drive. In this way you'd get people roleplaying more and they'd move through tiers of dungeons a little faster, removing the need for them to grind those dungeons over and over, day in and day out. Though with the horror theme in mind, should we really be lenient? This simply sounds like a problem of lacking enough content for the current size playerbase.

this feels like a very over-simplified view of things. i think you can have a very plausible and believable weapon master who doesn't dungeon at all and instead just studies and practices with their weapon. you can apply the inverse and say that going around wordlessly clearing dungeons shouldn't really give a WM character further understanding of ki, or that doing the same would necessarily bring out more of someone's draconic heritage
Moreover, for say, a wizard, it feels entirely on theme for them to gain better understanding of their magic and learn new spells while RPing studying, or for a cleric to achieve a better connection with their god while holding sermons, or... Ect, ect. Many classes have in built and natural avenues of RP that if we think about it, naturally should lead to them improving their skills.

It's reductive to say that characters level from chit chat and RPing about with their barber. Presumably every character is out there roleplaying their class.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2021, 07:26:17 PM »
I also don't really want to see the level cap lowered either, because people who actually enjoy playing this game can get a satisfying challenge in what I'd consider are incredibly well-balanced dungeons up to level 20.

I would counter with the usual - those dungeons can be completed by level 14s, with the exception of just one. And that's as far as we know, because no 10-20 player raid of fully enchanted level 14s has ever attempted it.

The progression from 15-20 is more like a victory lap. It does not increase the satisfaction of the challenge because it only makes it easier. Worse, the level range is such an anomaly in how it is unshackled from what the server is supposed to be about, that characters in it often become withdrawn from the game world. It's not for want of trying either, they actually become a part of an untouchable caste where no one wants them around because they break DM event balance and sap XP from parties that are lower level than them, yet simultaneously, everyone wants them around for dungeon rescues and PvP readiness. Not a good feeling.

Tons of alternate progression opportunities exist instead - even adamantine crafting is accessible at level 14. But it might be a bit more painful to try and solo it like some do now. Which is a good thing - soloing not only means spawns aren't being shared, but also that groups can't even get off the ground, because someone they'd want to group with - usually a caster or rogue - is off soloing something. A level 14 cap would be one of the very hardest nerfs to soloing, and* it would mean max level characters are only individually higher level than A/MPCs for a few weeks of that monster's initial exposition run. Allowing monsters to continue to become stronger over time is crucial so they can evolve to "boss monster" status.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 07:30:39 PM by SardineTheAncestor »
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Nezmith

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2021, 07:51:51 PM »
Quote
i think you can have a very plausible and believable weapon master who doesn't dungeon at all and instead just studies and practices with their weapon.

So, having come from a military background IRL I'd have to disagree with this. Practicing with something that doesn't ever strike back with the intent to kill is not even slightly comparable to the real thing. Likewise, fighting with only one sparring partner is going to breed a false sense of confidence in both individuals. Keeping your calm and having the courage to face down your foes would be another key point of mastery, otherwise you can be very good at slashing the air like an actor but never doing anything actually meaningful in a fight. I'd argue that's actually the complete opposite of having weapon mastery, just theatrical mastery. It's like movies where you see people slapping blades at full-body distance with sparks flying. It looks nice, but none of those strikes would have purpose in a real fight.

Take this scene for example:

https://youtu.be/MkYjdPCyYjk?t=108

This is arguably the most realistic duel recorded on film. Both actors had dulled blades and still didn't quite strike with the intent to kill, but you can see the difference from traditional movies where people just wag blades at eachother. You'll never learn how to parry like that from a training dummy. You'll never learn how hard you need to swing to actually do damage to X, Y, or Z creature. A good friend that you train with can have predictable swings, or may not strike as swiftly and hardly as they could. Would a weapon 'master' who trained like this be as good as someone who's survived a hundred battles fighting everything across the core, or would they just be a common city guard?

Quote
you can apply the inverse and say that going around wordlessly clearing dungeons shouldn't really give a WM character further understanding of ki, or that doing the same would necessarily bring out more of someone's draconic heritage

And this would be the point in keeping the blind drive system. A character that travelled wordlessly would still be heavily punished by those mechanics, though no more than they already are.

Quote
Having to look for new groups and thereby including new character/players isnt exactly a bad thing and may as well be intended.

Finding new players isn't a bad thing, but the problem is that most people don't look for new players or there aren't any around that add to or help cover roles in a group. For some characters it can be infinitely harder to find groups after a certain point based on their class. I know a few rangers and barbarians that get sidelined, for example, but had working groups on the way up.

Revenant

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2021, 08:17:16 PM »
Further tightening of blind drive bad.

Blind drive already can make a certain subset of entirely valid players feel as though there's no point to logging in if few people are in their hub/there's no (to them) meaty RP to be had. The common sense solution for them is alts, which plenty don't like to make and also doesn't seem like something we really want to encourage. Particularly contrasted with how fast the XP anti-cap bleeds away, even after getting little to no dungeon XP for months and months, the ease with which one hits blind drive and the duration that it remains might see the player numbers drop on average. I don't think most of the people I'm describing would just leave the server, but they'd certainly be more choosy about when they log in.

Additionally, you might run into worse vibes when people find content cleared out; either fingerpointing suspicions that some party "took" their opportunity for XP purely out of malice/greed, getting no XP out of it due to their blind drive, or just general dejection over having to wait now that they're finally off cap.

Add to that the new player, to whom explaining the XP system's arcane mechanisms is already typically required and seldom simple. New players are more likely to attempt to frequently dungeon despite Blind Drive. New players are more likely not to read yellow text and realize what's actually going on. The fortunate ones will come to the Discord and have some things explained to them: the number of times I've seen "Hey, my XP number isn't increasing" attests. The server has done all due diligence in providing the answer to that in-game, for sure, but it's still a thing that crops up.

Right now, those players can push on and will eventually learn by experience: "Oh hey, I leveled up despite my numbers not changing, I guess I am getting XP." If Blind Drive hard-caps you, even if we do our due diligence via in-game warnings, you're absolutely going to have new players that just "play" and never understand why they've stopped getting XP. The fortunate ones will come to the Discord and have some things explained to them; the unfortunate ones might end up leaving as the players who know the now "correct" way to play progress faster than them. It's easy and technically correct to say that's on them, and that if they don't read the warnings we don't want them - but my experience is that PotM intends to cater to more or less everyone who isn't a literal troll.

Current common belief is that it's roughly equivalent in leveling speed between having a PotM Character GrindsetTM and being a good boy and waiting for your cap to reset, coming in at average a year of dedicated and semi-informed play to hit 20. Splitting the difference and doing a bit of both is, if I recall, worse. Regardless of whether you believe that's a healthy timeframe in current year or not, if you make one of those approaches just completely nonfunctional, you add yet another layer of meta-knowledge that builds resentment between new players and the supposed in-the-know "elites."

tl;dr: Blind Drive tightening means yet more burden of knowledge that turns off new players, and also runs the risk of creating new and exciting Bad Feels.

While I'm sure the current number of players operating frequently at 1-XP blind drive is almost negligible, the difference between 0 and 1 XP is pretty huge.
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mooner

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2021, 08:25:40 PM »

So, having come from a military background IRL I'd have to disagree with this. Practicing with something that doesn't ever strike back with the intent to kill is not even slightly comparable to the real thing. Likewise, fighting with only one sparring partner is going to breed a false sense of confidence in both individuals. Keeping your calm and having the courage to face down your foes would be another key point of mastery, otherwise you can be very good at slashing the air like an actor but never doing anything actually meaningful in a fight. I'd argue that's actually the complete opposite of having weapon mastery, just theatrical mastery. It's like movies where you see people slapping blades at full-body distance with sparks flying. It looks nice, but none of those strikes would have purpose in a real fight.

Take this scene for example:

https://youtu.be/MkYjdPCyYjk?t=108

This is arguably the most realistic duel recorded on film. Both actors had dulled blades and still didn't quite strike with the intent to kill, but you can see the difference from traditional movies where people just wag blades at eachother. You'll never learn how to parry like that from a training dummy. You'll never learn how hard you need to swing to actually do damage to X, Y, or Z creature. A good friend that you train with can have predictable swings, or may not strike as swiftly and hardly as they could. Would a weapon 'master' who trained like this be as good as someone who's survived a hundred battles fighting everything across the core, or would they just be a common city guard?

And this would be the point in keeping the blind drive system. A character that travelled wordlessly would still be heavily punished by those mechanics, though no more than they already are.

In the sense of a general fighter or a ranger acquiring new favoured enemies I'd say that's a solid argument, but the rp approaches I've seen to WM have a much bigger emphasis on study and technique. It would be entirely possible to spar with a variety of opponents but this is something you're relying on RP XP for. Both approaches would have their own strengths - someone with formal training in the techniques of using a weapon is probably going to have advantages (at least, in some areas) over someone who's picked it up from a practical approach, and vice versa. Someone with considerably more practical experience will probably be more knowledgeable overall but that's something you'll see represented on the server just by how quickly people doing dungeons will level in comparison to people only getting rp xp

Even with that change in the system, its still entirely possible someone is doing dungeons then coming out to talk with their barber to reduce the penalty. either way you're relying on the good will of the player to be doing some relevant RP to progress in their class

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2021, 09:32:50 PM »
I also don't really want to see the level cap lowered either, because people who actually enjoy playing this game can get a satisfying challenge in what I'd consider are incredibly well-balanced dungeons up to level 20.

The progression from 15-20 is more like a victory lap. It does not increase the satisfaction of the challenge because it only makes it easier. Worse, the level range is such an anomaly in how it is unshackled from what the server is supposed to be about, that characters in it often become withdrawn from the game world. It's not for want of trying either, they actually become a part of an untouchable caste where no one wants them around because they break DM event balance and sap XP from parties that are lower level than them, yet simultaneously, everyone wants them around for dungeon rescues and PvP readiness. Not a good feeling.


I strongly disagree on that. The progression from 15 to 18 is crucial for many classes (casters, specially, and pure fighters) and it allows us to make many things were too hard before. It is now, lvl 18, that I'm putting my PC to TRULY smith.
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slash

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2021, 09:41:05 PM »
Quote
i think you can have a very plausible and believable weapon master who doesn't dungeon at all and instead just studies and practices with their weapon.

So, having come from a military background IRL I'd have to disagree with this. Practicing with something that doesn't ever strike back with the intent to kill is not even slightly comparable to the real thing. Likewise, fighting with only one sparring partner is going to breed a false sense of confidence in both individuals. Keeping your calm and having the courage to face down your foes would be another key point of mastery, otherwise you can be very good at slashing the air like an actor but never doing anything actually meaningful in a fight. I'd argue that's actually the complete opposite of having weapon mastery, just theatrical mastery. It's like movies where you see people slapping blades at full-body distance with sparks flying. It looks nice, but none of those strikes would have purpose in a real fight.

Take this scene for example:

https://youtu.be/MkYjdPCyYjk?t=108

This is arguably the most realistic duel recorded on film. Both actors had dulled blades and still didn't quite strike with the intent to kill, but you can see the difference from traditional movies where people just wag blades at eachother. You'll never learn how to parry like that from a training dummy. You'll never learn how hard you need to swing to actually do damage to X, Y, or Z creature. A good friend that you train with can have predictable swings, or may not strike as swiftly and hardly as they could. Would a weapon 'master' who trained like this be as good as someone who's survived a hundred battles fighting everything across the core, or would they just be a common city guard?

Quote
you can apply the inverse and say that going around wordlessly clearing dungeons shouldn't really give a WM character further understanding of ki, or that doing the same would necessarily bring out more of someone's draconic heritage

And this would be the point in keeping the blind drive system. A character that travelled wordlessly would still be heavily punished by those mechanics, though no more than they already are.

Quote
Having to look for new groups and thereby including new character/players isnt exactly a bad thing and may as well be intended.

Finding new players isn't a bad thing, but the problem is that most people don't look for new players or there aren't any around that add to or help cover roles in a group. For some characters it can be infinitely harder to find groups after a certain point based on their class. I know a few rangers and barbarians that get sidelined, for example, but had working groups on the way up.

So, as someone who plays a weapon master who does not dungeon and was in fact a city guard, I must say that assuming you must dungeon to be an effective weapon master is a bit off the mark. Contrary to popular belief, there are aspects to weapon mastery as a PrC beyond the actual fighting. There is a philosophical aspect to the PrC that people tend to neglect when discussing the class, and I believe that shines most through RP rather than combat.

Not all experience is combat experience. In real life, we grow as people through a variety of ways and very seldom if ever are everyday people growing from combat. If anything it makes perfect sense that focusing wholly on combat for growth would cause your character's growth to slow and inevitably stagnate because you are not obtaining experience from a variety of sources. It's always been strange to me that people rail against RP EXP in an RPG where the primary focus is intended to be roleplaying.
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Evendur

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2021, 10:12:38 PM »
Further tightening of blind drive bad.

[...]
tl;dr: Blind Drive tightening means yet more burden of knowledge that turns off new players, and also runs the risk of creating new and exciting Bad Feels.

While I'm sure the current number of players operating frequently at 1-XP blind drive is almost negligible, the difference between 0 and 1 XP is pretty huge.

I do not see how this will have any significant negative impact.
When a character has reached the XP cap, it takes forever to gather any meaningful XP and it would already be impossible to tell if one reached the next lvl because of 10 days of  grinding every dungeon on the server  or if it was because of that last dungeon when the cap was actually gone and the same result would have been reached by waiting 9 day before dungeoning again.

According to the rest messages that appear when a character is at the cap, the little bit of RP/coordination during dungeoning brings more XP then killing the monsters.
Completely removing the XP gained by killing monsters will likely have no impact at all, it will only make it more clear to the player what is happening.

But at the same time, the disappearance of the "XP gained" messages in combination with a clear rest message that says "You are beyond blind drive, nothing gained today" will lead to quite a few who will rather spend their time with RP, crafting or just exploring the world. Even if not everyone reads those messages, they are not pointless and I cant see that having anything but a positive effect on dungeon groups




[...]
The progression from 15-20 is more like a victory lap. It does not increase the satisfaction of the challenge because it only makes it easier. Worse, the level range is such an anomaly in how it is unshackled from what the server is supposed to be about, that characters in it often become withdrawn from the game world. It's not for want of trying either, they actually become a part of an untouchable caste where no one wants them around because they break DM event balance and sap XP from parties that are lower level than them, yet simultaneously, everyone wants them around for dungeon rescues and PvP readiness. Not a good feeling.
[...]

I also strongly disagree with this. It sounds a lot like coming from a caster player since those can literally solo most of the server at lvl 15
But even a fully combat optimized lvl20 Fighter wont be able to solo something like trolls without wards (and even with, it would take some time), while there are also lvl 20 groups who still get wiped in places like Ghastria.
But this it too much off topic so we might need to discuss nerving casters in a different Thread, perhaps remove the 9th circle and half the spell slots  *takes cover from the impending shitstorm* :D

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2021, 10:48:17 PM »
I also strongly disagree with this. It sounds a lot like coming from a caster player since those can literally solo most of the server at lvl 15

Quite the assumption. I have never soloed anything at level 15+ on a caster character that a level 10 martial couldn't do with a few potions or a gun. It's not my playstyle and I actively avoid it. I'm a party player and I build support characters. I seek out and/or create parties.

I'm aware that people make casters and go blast dungeons to bits solo. That doesn't mean martials should have an easier time at it or that people should chase level 15+ so they can solo stuff. Lowering the level cap makes soloing less viable all around. That's a positive change if you ask me.

there are also lvl 20 groups who still get wiped in places like Ghastria.

This is an extreme scenario. For a group of all level 20s to wipe in any Ghastria dungeon, they have to be unaware they receive no XP and therefore deliberately make the choice not to oversize their party if they are in need of vital buffs. The loot there is also nothing to write home about, so when their split becomes 150 instead of 300 or whatever, it's not exactly a big deal. It beats no one getting paid, or everyone walking away poorer for the smidgen of XP they stood to earn.

I know it's frustrating sometimes, but the module doesn't pull punches. If you actively disbelieve the danger that exists in the encounters, or that mobs use certain spells which must be countered, and so on, you're basically daring the game to give you a harder time. There are surprises, unclear mechanics, and glitches, sure, but sometimes players are their own worst enemies.
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Evendur

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2021, 11:13:08 PM »
I also strongly disagree with this. It sounds a lot like coming from a caster player since those can literally solo most of the server at lvl 15

Quite the assumption. I have never soloed anything at level 15+ on a caster character that a level 10 martial couldn't do with a few potions or a gun. It's not my playstyle and I actively avoid it. I'm a party player and I build support characters. I seek out and/or create parties.

Im sorry if that came across as too personal. Its honestly my own observation as well, Leveling a frontliner took forever while a playing a caster feels extremely easy and fast in comparison. But thats another topic.


SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2021, 11:29:39 PM »
I think it's pretty relevant. I touched on that but didn't cover it properly in my posts here. It's been said before that casters can get into any group they want to, whereas martials have to hope there's room for them. I think a lower level cap would help, at least vaguely. It's possible to solo at or before 14, but it only becomes more and more possible as the levels get higher. We know most of it is casters since they don't typically have to spend any resources. We also know those casters could be seeking out groups instead of soloing.
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Phantasia

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2021, 11:39:51 PM »
Lower CL and cap in general means less buffs to go around, means "mundane" characters become that much more important and sub roles increase with a need for more diverse tactics, as does a need to spread the spells available, instead of hyper-buffing one person in your party to carry (an unfortunate side effect of accessible potions/spells in great number).

I don't think we'll be seeing a blanket level cap reduction any time soon if ever though lol.

Along with appropriate XP changes and dungeon rebalancing/tweaks, it could solve a lot of issues of the hyper-carry style and low group numbers.

Tl;dr you just don't need to bring more than is necessary (2-3 in many, many cases) due to spell wealth and dungeon design.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 11:41:52 PM by Phantasia »
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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2021, 12:04:56 AM »
On a general scope, these are my feelings on experience.

I have always personally been of the belief that spawn timers and the XP cap are things that will not affect how long I spend roleplaying and how long I spend dungeoning. If I want to go get experience points, I will, and if I want to roleplay, I will. While this can be taken to mean that things are fine as it is, it is more of an argument against the required time investment.

I do not have the time I once did to play this game. I have other hobbies, lots of time spent at University and other real life commitments (yes, even during the pandemic). I am sure others are in similar situations, and while what they feel about the amount of time they need to spend on this game to get anywhere might differ from what I feel, I believe that it is overall better to allow people to get higher levels faster. It creates higher character turnover, and less feelings of attachment to months and years spent facilitating a character's mechanical progression. People will become more inclined to involve themselves in storylines that could lead to potential character closure. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2021, 12:14:28 AM »
On a general scope, these are my feelings on experience.

I have always personally been of the belief that spawn timers and the XP cap are things that will not affect how long I spend roleplaying and how long I spend dungeoning. If I want to go get experience points, I will, and if I want to roleplay, I will. While this can be taken to mean that things are fine as it is, it is more of an argument against the required time investment.

I do not have the time I once did to play this game. I have other hobbies, lots of time spent at University and other real life commitments (yes, even during the pandemic). I am sure others are in similar situations, and while what they feel about the amount of time they need to spend on this game to get anywhere might differ from what I feel, I believe that it is overall better to allow people to get higher levels faster. It creates higher character turnover, and less feelings of attachment to months and years spent facilitating a character's mechanical progression. People will become more inclined to involve themselves in storylines that could lead to potential character closure. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

I agree with this completely.  Most of the bad feelings around corpsehiding and closure is that it is a punishment for all the time a person invested into their characters.  To my knowledge, there has not been a conflict in PvP in the past year that didn't result in a ban or a mediation of some kind. 

Having it take as long as it takes to hit the levels where you can handle conflict makes it so that feelings and emotions are even more higher because nobody wants to lose a half a year to a year of progression.  Even if you're corpsehidden, there's no guarantee you're found and you can still lose 4-5 levels which is the equivalent to months of experience gains.

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2021, 12:22:09 AM »
I wish to second the several posts advocating RP as a better way to progress with a character than what it is today.


Bar-brawls doesnt make an engineer better in being an engineer (even if using his own self made high-tech knuckle duster), and in the same manner shouldn't be the best way a wizard gains his mastery or a cleric gain his.

While I am all for letting people know without doubt that they're banging their head to the wall with only a 1 xp gain per monster (or even let them know they get none), Perhaps a better way to promote dungeon-to-rp activity diversion is to make the xp gain from rp more significent?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 05:53:20 AM by gotesu »

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2021, 12:32:01 AM »
I wish to second the several posts advocating RP as a better way to progress with a character than what it is today.


Bar-brawls doesnt make an engineer better in being an engineer (even if using his own self made high-tech knuckle duster), and in the same manner shouldn't be the best way a wizard gains his mastery or a cleric gain his.

While I am all for letting people know without doubt that they're banging their head to the wall with only a 1 xp gain per monster (or even let them know they get know), Perhaps a better way to promote dungeon-to-rp activity diversion is to make the xp gain from rp more significent?

A bar fight won't make a wizard learn more spells, but stay in his tower studying and not dungeoneering will give him the XP bonus to mimic that.
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JustMonika

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2021, 04:34:05 AM »
Just a a friendly reminder from one of your local forum moderators to ensure you all stay in topic and refrain from attacks or assumptions on your fellow players.

Stay constuctive, and stay excellent.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2021, 10:07:43 AM »
I believe that it is overall better to allow people to get higher levels faster. It creates higher character turnover, and less feelings of attachment to months and years spent facilitating a character's mechanical progression. People will become more inclined to involve themselves in storylines that could lead to potential character closure. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

I'm with you on the whole of your post, but on this part in particular, I'd only want to see progression become any faster if it meant the cap was lowered to 14. There is just no reason for any character to reach level 15+ with the way things are balanced on the server. If the cap was lowered tomorrow and all characters above it were adjusted down with no compensation, I seriously think it will have only positive effects.

I don't think much of an XP buff is required at all, either. I still think progression is important, but that at a certain point, it becomes counterintuitive not just to the setting, but to the individual player's enjoyment. When you start to float above the server's challenges and even medium spawns in dungeons barely have any monsters that give you experience, the victory lap effect is in full swing. More importantly, even if people can speed to 14 but can go no higher without becoming a monster, no one can ever out-grind an AMPC that doesn't even exist yet. Killing them off before even having stakes in the story they're spinning, which many cite as a real and persistent problem, becomes a rarer dilemma.

One's progression need not stop when they reach max level, though. Someone floating between 19-20 can go for an enchanting loop, too, and there's crafting, faction progression, the challenge of completing every dungeon with your level 14 party. Milestones don't have to disappear just because the levels do. We have a single "end game" dungeon right now but would technically transition to having several, and any more dungeons/spawn levels released or rebalanced for the 11-20 level range become a part of that circuit too.

edit: The reason I feel very little XP buff is needed at all is because with a cap of 14, a fresh character is only "under the wing" of any high level mentors for a couple months at most, even if they're semi-active. Very active players can already reach level 10 in a month, and the power gap between 10-14 is only really as significant as gear disparity, improved critical for 3/4 BAB classes, and 6th and 7th circle spells. For players who want it, getting those last few levels will only take another month or two. Right now, after your enchanting loop is finished, you can look forward to 6 months of active play if getting anywhere close to 20 is meaningful to you, and it already takes most players around 6 months just to get to 15 or so in the first place. But after everything the staff has told us, and my own experiences too, I don't even see how 15-20 belongs in the server dynamic anymore. Who would want to be a high level in a world where all you do is sap XP and make even low-level focused DM events balanced around you?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 11:01:03 AM by SardineTheAncestor »
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