Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

[MAB77]

As it happens, the idea of large groups taking on a dungeon existed ever since the creation of the server. There is always something to be gained even if it is not XP. Could be loot, making new helpful contacts, or even simply RP for its own sake. All of them valid rewards. Granted a lot of it ultimately boils down to playstyles. Maybe you prefer both loot and XP over RP, that's a fair preference. There is no right or wrong into it, only varying point of views.

But do remember always this server was built with a vision in mind: to take it slow and roleplay, and no XP reward when the challenge is too easy. Cardinal points that will not change. As best as possible we wish to foster an environment where growing to level 20 isn't a requirement for enjoyment. Obviously it can be a difficult balance to achieve, and some content from different devs may indirectly contradict that spirit. All that said, rebalancing dungeons as EO stated is the best and only viable approach, but it's over 15 years of content to update. Some of the content was perfectly fine tuned for the server at the time of its inception. This obviously changes as stronger and stronger loot or crafted items, feats, spells, classes kept being added over the years. The behemoth as I call it is always an evolving beast. Some dungeons will be updated, but that's unlikely to be the majority.

You can rest assured though we are conscious of the pros and cons of our dungeons, and are always open to the ideas of improving them.

[Favee]

I play a lot of the PvE content, I actually really really really enjoy it.  To the point where over the last year and a half my character has been outside of blind drive twice.  At creation, and after a hiatus. And the character entered blind drive within a day both times.

I also enjoy investing into one character at a time.  The blind drive system makes me feel like I should have a rotating cast of characters to play for dungeons, rather than focusing on the I currently enjoy.

That being said I don't think there is anything wrong with the blind drive system design wise, it just makes me feel stupid for not having more characters. 

I'll still run dungeons everyday and ignore blind drive.  A big chunk of my enjoyment here is the PvE content.

[Day Old Bread]

I've never felt that there was really a big problem with the dungeons, the xp they award, the loot they drop, or any of that. I've experienced, from time to time, a feeling of being left out. But generally speaking, I like the server balance. I come here to RP, not to grind dungeons and xp and become very powerful in a span of a few weeks.

I like smaller, more intimate groups. I like moving slowly while going through a dungeon. Sometimes I like getting lots of xp at one time, but infrequently.

In truth, if anything, if like to see more xp out of dungeons with harsher penalty for repeat visits. Something like the blind drive system, but way more punishing.  That's just my preference though and I think it's important to know that. In a perfect world, the other players would all agree, but you guys all want different things from your time here. THAT is why I think the current system works pretty well.

[SwordChucks]

As it happens, the idea of large groups taking on a dungeon existed ever since the creation of the server. There is always something to be gained even if it is not XP. Could be loot, making new helpful contacts, or even simply RP for its own sake. All of them valid rewards. Granted a lot of it ultimately boils down to playstyles. Maybe you prefer both loot and XP over RP, that's a fair preference. There is no right or wrong into it, only varying point of views.

But do remember always this server was built with a vision in mind: to take it slow and roleplay, and no XP reward when the challenge is too easy. Cardinal points that will not change. As best as possible we wish to foster an environment where growing to level 20 isn't a requirement for enjoyment. Obviously it can be a difficult balance to achieve, and some content from different devs may indirectly contradict that spirit. All that said, rebalancing dungeons as EO stated is the best and only viable approach, but it's over 15 years of content to update. Some of the content was perfectly fine tuned for the server at the time of its inception. This obviously changes as stronger and stronger loot or crafted items, feats, spells, classes kept being added over the years. The behemoth as I call it is always an evolving beast. Some dungeons will be updated, but that's unlikely to be the majority.

You can rest assured though we are conscious of the pros and cons of our dungeons, and are always open to the ideas of improving them.

Fair point as well, can’t forget any changes to a server of this size is no small task, and at the end of the day, I am perfectly happy playing in the sandbox I have vs forcing some poor dev to sweat out hours and hours of fixes.

 PoTM is still and always will be top dawg of the rp servers regardless of a few small issues, and the devs and dms here are frankly the best around.

[transcend]

Brevity is the soul of wit, but I'll say that to maintain a steady growth in the number of players, Geistonomics are necessary. So I support @Dardonas's suggestion.

In all honesty, Geist is such a positive to the game that he makes you want to stick around for the game. He gives a hand up to those that are trying to make their own way in the server, provided they can get to Mist Camp.

'Dungeoning' by itself isn't a threat to RP. You have level 19 AMPCs running around who can  get NPC henchmen and all sorts of cool roleplay resources. Instead of trying to limit the  speed of progression, both materially and XP-wise, think of ways to make the environment fight you back.

You have such good DMs in the team telling great stories whenever they show up for a dungeon;  this is how you do it. Not by mechanics, but by storytelling.

Good stories don't care if you are strength 20 or not. They also don't care if you win or lose.

They exist  on their own or not at all.

[Bouquet of Lotuses]

The problem isn't large groups. The problem is that anything other than a meta composition is heavily punished by the overall design of the server. I've felt this on multiple characters, sometimes you sign up for it (for example when playing certain natives and faiths), other times it's just a bit of a bummer to have no options and thus be left with only zergs as an option.

[Day Old Bread]

But more seriously we're a growing community that has only limited content, it's simply the population count is different from what it once was and these threads suggest or try to address them. There are really only two options more dungeons or fundamental changes to the system. I'm no fan of what EO said as it seems to punish players for playing the game, but its something that should be eventually addressed. If the server is meant to be something in the eyes of the DEV team so be it, but I don't think we should be afraid to suggest changes or examine the system.

The reason I'd consider giving 0 XP past some point is that right now when someone's in a very deep state of blind drive, their XP gains are very close to 0; I think they can even be under 1 XP per monster eventually. At that point, that person is clearing content and "ruining" spawns for others for little to no gains but still sees see the "Experience gained" message, so keeps trucking on. It'd be best then to just give 0 XP so the person knows where they stand and perhaps takes a pause from dungeoning.

The goal of the XP cap in the first place was to encourage people to not grind endlessly; if people still grind endlessly even when they're at the extreme end of the XP cap that system isn't working fully as intended.

100% agree with giving that 0 XP past some point.  It would certainly let people know they've hit that threshold and should take a break rather than eeking by and "ruining" a spawn. 

Is there a way to do this with loot drops as well?  Flag an individual who has been farming farming farming, whether it be by ninja looting or by simply grinding out dungeons with a party? This would encourage people to take breaks between dungeons and know that they're just along for the ride if the tag along with another group.

[ThatOneGeneralGuy]

New-ish guy here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I really don't think that further making the grind harder and more intense would be healthy for the server. The number one complaint I've had to try to overcome with bringing friends over is the whole blind-drive system and how slow the grind is, I don't think making it more intense is going to solve more issues than it causes.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Having been a part of/led larger groups in the past, I don't think they should reward more XP. Even if you end up short on buffs or something, that's more down to how you distribute those buffs that gets you in trouble or helps you succeed. When joining a large group, your AOE buffs & healing become significantly more valuable because they have no maximum number of targets. The enemies also don't scale up in difficulty or amount, so the whole thing is ultimately going to be easier based on how you approach it.

This is just a tradeoff - speed and ease of access for a little less XP per dungeon. If you're a very active player and you're on that dungeon jam, it's not affecting your leveling pace, because you will not fall into blind drive earlier than if you had just leveled normally. It'll arguably take longer for you to reach blind drive, if only a little, because you'll need to clear more dungeons before you get there.

Also, it's too easy to carry people in certain dungeons as it is. Raise the maximum party size for full XP duplication and you open the door to even more of that.

[Sinthepie]

Even if you do set blind drive to 0 xp, or nearly 0 xp, I do not think people will mind the fact that they are ruining a spawn for somebody else. They will just continue doing what they had previously been doing. Whether it is buffing the dungeons that are actually already hard to do overall for a group that doesn't know what to expect, and pretty challenging even if you know what is coming next, or the blind drive suggestion from EO, it won't make the dungeons less frequented. Actually I think people would keep hitting the dungeons and complain that they have not gained a level after a month of dungeoning even if they were told they get 0 xp at the level of blind drive they are in.

Instead of changing the xp system, perhaps introducing revamps to the already available dungeons or bringing in more dungeons, and perhaps introducing a better Dementlieu, where rp is not sucking up to nobles and feeling left out if you are not familiar with mustache twirling, backstabbing RP and have no interest in it, you can fit in.

Even if somehow though all of those changes were made to dungeons, they were all revamped, xp was cut to 0 when on blind drive and different solutions to rp were introduced, people would continue doing the same 5-6 dungeons they continue doing right now because repetition can be fun and a lot of people play to put their class features to use.

In the end, I think everything is fun as it is and I don't think anything needs change, but perhaps we just need more environments to travel to and more content.

[ThatOneGeneralGuy]

Instead of changing the xp system, perhaps introducing revamps to the already available dungeons or bringing in more dungeons, and perhaps introducing a better Dementlieu, where rp is not sucking up to nobles and feeling left out if you are not familiar with mustache twirling, backstabbing RP and have no interest in it, you can fit in.

Or, I'd say even just more hub areas outside of Mist Camp and Port for medium/high levels.

[Sinthepie]

There's many places people could easily turn into hubs, like for example just go to Blaustein, or Ghastria, or hang out around the Vistani camp near VOB- but it is convenient to be in the Dryad Keep if you do dungeon or are out of Barovia permitted levels, which is why people go to Dryad Keep, and Dementlieu is where a lot of the plots seem to run at, which is why people make Dementlieu pcs.

So it is really up to people to come up with places to hang out in.

[Steam and Metal]

Instead of changing the xp system, perhaps introducing revamps to the already available dungeons or bringing in more dungeons, and perhaps introducing a better Dementlieu, where rp is not sucking up to nobles and feeling left out if you are not familiar with mustache twirling, backstabbing RP and have no interest in it, you can fit in.

The Dementlieuse underworld provides you with a great deal of that, at least when events are popping off there which seems often. It may be worth looking into. Additionally, a fair amount of stuff has been happening in and around Hazlan.

[Favee]

Instead of changing the xp system, perhaps introducing revamps to the already available dungeons or bringing in more dungeons, and perhaps introducing a better Dementlieu, where rp is not sucking up to nobles and feeling left out if you are not familiar with mustache twirling, backstabbing RP and have no interest in it, you can fit in.

The Dementlieuse underworld provides you with a great deal of that, at least when events are popping off there which seems often. It may be worth looking into. Additionally, a fair amount of stuff has been happening in and around Hazlan.

Not to derail the thread too hard but...  I'll second this.  I've spent the majority of my recent play time in the Port underbelly scene.  Even as an obvious outcast that doesn't speak Mordentish you can fit in pretty easily.  There are quite a lot of events and while there might not always be someone around to RP with, its consistently getting more and more people each week.  I've personally tried to make any events I've ran to be accessible for players currently enjoying non-native concepts so they can get a toe in the water so to speak.  The other events down there have been very accessible as well.

[Anarcoplayba]

0xp in blind drive seems a good patch to avoid people grinding all dungeons all time. The message seems misleading and, to me, the farm of the same areas ruin the enjoyement. Seriously, one night I went to four dungeons and the four were just cleansed.

I know that we kinda need more content and I'm considering learning to create them abd submit to the developers, but, so far, although I agree that the geist effect is good to the comunity, allowing the non stop grinding with the number of dungeons we have is not great.

[Vissy]

0xp at blind drive actually seems good to me. It wouldn't cut into xp gains at all, and I think it would genuinely stop a lot of dungeon grinding.

[SardineTheAncestor]

While we're on the topic of damaging spawns: isn't loot generated upon opening the chest, not area initialisation? Can ninjalooters be prevented, therefore, from ruining the loot in a dungeon just by setting foot inside after being 'locked out' of it?

--

I don't think you will ever realistically see enough dungeons that they cannot be farmed on repeat. It would be simpler, if heavy handed, to lock players out from doing the same dungeon twice in one reset like ninjalooters are. Clearing a dungeon gives you info that no one else has until they show up for the disappointment of an empty dungeon. You also have a clearer picture of when the spawn will finish building than anyone else does, giving you initiative on hitting it twice or even three times in one reset.

[Day Old Bread]

I'm also quite curious. WTF is a geist? I don't know if I've seen it heard of this person/thing/whatever

[EarlofEtheria]

Removing the XP message while in Blind Drive seems like a decent option. Don't remove the XP, just take away the message to signify the gains are so microscopic they're like a Canadian penny, not worth the exchange.

[Sinthepie]

Removing the blind drive message, or nerfing the loot would just make people less likely to want to play and this includes me who enjoys dungeons as much as roleplaying with people. You can't always be in the mood to roleplay and sometimes all you wanna do is go out there and kill stuff. Knowing that I will get no xp is fine but the lack of loot would be disencouraging from even wanting to spend some time. Then why do we even have dungeons, if we are not receiving rewards?  This would also increase the gap between the older pcs and newer pcs further, making even less likely for people to want to start new stories on new pcs because feeling the safety of your magical or rare items is going to be even harder. It would require more balancing for classes that people are assuming are strong as they are because they have access to items and ninjalooting is no solution either because people like myself will still want to "raid" dungeons for loot.

Nothing replaces the fun of spending some time in a dungeon with your friends or random people, maybe roleplaying some or just concentrating on using your abilities to conquer it and finding something worthwhile to show for it. And remember, you could be longing for adventures in this server, but after an hour or two of dungeoneering, you'll be deep in Blind Drive.

[Alan Hunter]

Just to clarify, I'm not intending to make it sound like I'm attacking people who dungeon in groups of 3-5.  That's my preferred group size, myself.  I have no hard feelings against people who go in groups of 3-6 people.  I think the issue comes in when people solo or duo content. That sort of thing is what harms the experience of others, such as hag killing where it decimates the spawn for the benefit of one player and the detriment of anyone else wanting to do that dungeon.

Now I haven't even Rped with Giest much and the little I have was not bad. I've witnessed this group inclusion and I understand some points of Value as its nice to see more of the server but some of it can be odd role-playing wise. I admit I'm a bit oppose to handicapping solo or duo dungeoners on some personal experience. Having leveled most my characters solo and duo I can admit it's not often easy to join a group as often they are there own cliche or faction.  Some reasons show also character may not get along with another ugly which makes no sense rivals would join together for a dungeon casually. As it stands in my experience, not sure others have as well, the challenge of getting a group together or often being rejected from a group solo or duo is often. And as Dar pointed moat groups do not like large groups because of the loot dispersion.  However, this often leaves folks to solo or Roseau as means to gain. And if some are like me soloing some dungeons hp with the monetizing of gear and lots as often I don't have a group to frequent with so I have to rely upon myself to survive Ravenloft. So minimizing those solo or duo with out many options I feel would be detrimental to those not as fortunate. Not everyone can be a Geist or some may not feel encouraged to give up their one vantage that sustains their character. Though I'm up for reducing the increase of uneccisary population these days. "The buy in" philosophy is old and out dated and some times misinterpreted as a solution to remove known weaker folks from experiencing or gaining a foothold in the game

[SardineTheAncestor]

Why dungeon without rewards? Because it's fun. I left plenty of dungeons without a share, paid for someone's revive, and got a minimal amount of XP - probably the equivalent of having to do that dungeon 30+ times to level up - without even being in blind drive. I'm sure you've been in the same situation, we all have. It's how the XP curve works when you hit level 10.

I would personally rather a lower level cap so this whole 14+ grind thing just goes away, and alternate progression can take over. It is a good thing that there are high level AMPCs around. It would be better if they were higher level than regular PCs could ever be. It would solve the RPXP in Vallaki problem as a consequence. It would nerf caster supremacy and metamagics, too. But all of that is probably for a different thread.

I don't see progression needing to become quicker or slower - the new player experience was already vastly improved with recent dungeon additions (e.g. over the last year), at least in terms of getting out of that level 2-5 region which some would argue is the best time you can have on the server. Progression is counterintuitive sometimes. I don't think we need more high level characters to "close the level gap" between players, but I do see the level gap as a problem that contributes to people having a hard time finding groups. A cap at 14 to beat the gap would, in my opinion, be the best long term solution.

A more hostile game environment to make each moment more tense and each victory sweeter is far better than artificially inflating the numbers on the gear/level treadmill anymore than they already are.

I also agree with Alan, bosses are way too easy to assassinate without even participating in a group. Sithicus ninjalooting was altered at some point - can we see hags, for example, get some attention?

[slash]

If anything, we should continue the process of rebalancing existing dungeons so people aren't incentivized to complete the same 6-7 dungeons over and over again, both by toning down overly generous dungeons and bumping up less rewarding ones. Obviously that's easier said than done but it's the most efficient way to tackle this.

I really like the idea of revamping the current pool of dungeons to encourage players to visit them more. Would it be feasible to have average group level influence the spawn of a dungeon upon entry?

Of course, there's the matter of adding more dungeons, and perhaps tightening the XP cap penalties (a state of blind drive where you reach 0 XP gains rather than close to 0 would help).

I don't feel like tightening XP cap penalties would be a productive way of addressing this problem. It would certainly take a big step toward the established goal, but I think it would be read as an overly hostile measure from some of the playerbase. People want progression, and anything seen as an inhibition to progression is going to stir up a lot of negative emotions. Of course, I don't know how the XP system works and if data reflects that XP gain has begun to deviate substantially from the intended vision of the dev team then it should be addressed to bring it back in line with the goal. With that said, experience is a fundamental part of the player experience, and I think that a dedicated thread to receiving player input on an effort to modify the way they progress would go a long way in making the playerbase feel like their interests are being represented in whatever changes may take place.


(Also, as an aside, I have some reservations about this thread being named after a player's PC who, as far as I am aware, has not yet represented themselves or expressed any form of affirmative consent in being associated with its contents. I understand that this PC is being used as a positive example, and that their association with this thread is intended to be a compliment. However, it seems inappropriate to center a debate around their character and actions - and somewhat cavalier to do so for the sake of a snappy title. This is a discussion thread, not a youtube essay, and the "author" is very much extant within our community, and it's not fair to them to impose these interpretations of their actions onto them for the sake of making an argument.)

[Anarcoplayba]

Removing the XP message while in Blind Drive seems like a decent option. Don't remove the XP, just take away the message to signify the gains are so microscopic they're like a Canadian penny, not worth the exchange.

This seems worse to me. If you simply remove the message people will assume that you earned XP but the message isn't there to fool you. Maybe the rest message in BD could be something like "the days seem to marge and you don't really know what you've been fighting". That would le clear that dungeon XP is not happening.

Posted by: Sinthepie
« on: Today at 11:06:05 AM »

    Insert Quote


Removing the blind drive message, or nerfing the loot would just make people less likely to want to play and this includes me who enjoys dungeons as much as roleplaying with people. You can't always be in the mood to roleplay and sometimes all you wanna do is go out there and kill stuff. Knowing that I will get no xp is fine but the lack of loot would be disencouraging from even wanting to spend some time. Then why do we even have dungeons, if we are not receiving rewards?  This would also increase the gap between the older pcs and newer pcs further, making even less likely for people to want to start new stories on new pcs because feeling the safety of your magical or rare items is going to be even harder. It would require more balancing for classes that people are assuming are strong as they are because they have access to items and ninjalooting is no solution either because people like myself will still want to "raid" dungeons for loot.

Nothing replaces the fun of spending some time in a dungeon with your friends or random people, maybe roleplaying some or just concentrating on using your abilities to conquer it and finding something worthwhile to show for it. And remember, you could be longing for adventures in this server, but after an hour or two of dungeoneering, you'll be deep in Blind Drive.

If you are dungeoneering for the sake of dungeoneering... you don't care about the XP, right?

What I do believe, and on this I agree with EO, is that the cap is there to hold people grind dungeons non stop. If you have a cap of 90% and people keep pushing it, like a locust army... this cap is not working. Either we remove the cap at all, or we make it a hard cap. What seems a problem is that there is a cap to avoid people grinding 24/7, and when people hits the cap they dungeoneer even more "to compensate the cap".

[SardineTheAncestor]

The system is working as intended. Its objective wasn't to stop people from "crushing spawns" or doing dungeons "too much" but rather to slow their progression. The design documents intended for our eyes, scattered all over the forums, make it pretty clear that players are welcome to play however they want if it doesn't impede on the enjoyment of others. That includes defying blind drive.

Despite that, the player-side obfuscation prevented developers from knowing how players really feel. Some felt they were gaining more XP than they actually were, and continued to push on in spite of the messages and how many weeks it took to level up, where it would normally have taken them days.

Even now with the veil lifted, people will probably happily grind well into that 1 XP per kill range. Or just play an alt and grind some more. Even if you allow blind drive to completely remove all XP gains, they'll still do it, because they're helping other people level up, finding loot, and getting more crafting reagents.