Author Topic: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better  (Read 9750 times)

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #100 on: October 19, 2021, 09:24:54 AM »
Seems kinda unfair to ask the devs to adjust every possible dungeon slightly 'cause there's people want to flash mob them.

In an mmo, 4 is usually the standard group, 8 for a larger party and 24 for a "full raid".

Groups of 8 are self balancing for XP already because you will generally get more roleplay XP while doing it (more conversation, more time to type, more roleplay). Groups of 24 is just silly.

Don't think anything needs to be adjusted simply for these reasons.

You can maybe ask for a raid dungeon against nedregaard(?) keep or castle avernus at best where your group is going to be besieged by ever growing mobs with hero mobs that drop hag-level chest loot scattered sparsely to argue over. Require the stupid number of players as an entry requirement standing on a trigger. Go in and go ham, it's all you're there for right?

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2021, 09:35:04 AM »
Seems kinda unfair to ask the devs to adjust every possible dungeon slightly 'cause there's people want to flash mob them.

In an mmo, 4 is usually the standard group, 8 for a larger party and 24 for a "full raid".

Groups of 8 are self balancing for XP already because you will generally get more roleplay XP while doing it (more conversation, more time to type, more roleplay). Groups of 24 is just silly.

Don't think anything needs to be adjusted simply for these reasons.

You can maybe ask for a raid dungeon against nedregaard(?) keep or castle avernus at best where your group is going to be besieged by ever growing mobs with hero mobs that drop hag-level chest loot scattered sparsely to argue over. Require the stupid number of players as an entry requirement standing on a trigger. Go in and go ham, it's all you're there for right?

What do you mean "unfair" to ask the devs to do something?  That's such a bewildering argument to make.  Do we just not ask for the devs for things?

Also, nobody knows how the experience system works and could just be formulaic change that detects the number of players present.  Even with a "Geist group" style dungeon, I don't think you'd have 24 players.

Nobody asked for a raid or a group of 24, I don't know why this argument keeps getting brought up.  It's quite literally in the OP that "nobody is asking for World of Warcraft style raid," yet it keeps being conflated to such.

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #102 on: October 19, 2021, 09:41:47 AM »
There are no plans to rebalance dungeons towards larger groups nor encourage larger groups via XP. As others have pointed out, larger groups aren't conductive to more or better roleplay; if anything they stem from a MMO mentality.

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #103 on: October 22, 2021, 07:41:23 PM »
I knew this would eventually happen as I had played with this player before and understood his mentality about group play. Only time till he was a higher level.

I would applaud him because his inclusive group play is basically a big middle finger to an exclusive group of players that does the same thing, no rp, dungeon train - CHOO CHOO!

The cliquish OOC behavior that ignores other players RP attempts for inclusion has always been a problem in the mist camp.

And I am not saying I wholeheartedly agree with massive groups as many others said, the RP usually drops to a very low standard.

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #104 on: October 23, 2021, 02:30:36 AM »
I personally have never found a group larger than 8 to be enjoyable anywhere. There is too little room, half your party is twiddling their thumbs, and you spend more time talking over each other than contributing to actual roleplay. If you want to reduce dungeons being wiped out in mass I prefer the higher xp higher cap model. Party of 4-6 runs a tough level appropriate dungeon, gets xp, gets capped and goes back to roleplay and divide the loot.

SwordChucks

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #105 on: October 23, 2021, 08:02:30 AM »
And yet…

I went up to MC role played with a few folks (Strangers) around
The campfire and then had a group of about 6-7 out to Harvest Temple.

Geist was popular because he was proactive and much like back In Vallaki most folks would rather have someone else organize the groups
Then do it themselves.  He just preferred or didn’t care to manage massive groups - which I get, no one wants to say “you can come”-

As for cliquish behavior … yah, it’s sucks when in a fantasy setting where some characters are playing chaotic evil necromancers or just plain old scumbags  you may not want to immediately “party up” I can’t imagine why you would then want to party up with people you know.

You want to know what will fix MC, And still leave room for adventuring? Pro active RP… maybe don’t just stand along the road waiting for someone to say “ we’re going to har arkir” there is a perfectly good campfire spot with chairs, a giant hotel, even the vistani camp where you can talk, chat and organize a party yourself.

If your sole purpose is to dungeon/loot and level maybe you should consider if this is the right server for you, and with the new xp rules the devs are saying “RP is the priority”   And don’t misunderstand - I love dungeoning, fighting monsters, testing my PCs abilities … and of course loot and level .. but consider how much more it means when it’s alongside players with PCs that you’ve created some history with..

Oh and this argument about massive raids having RP .. yah/nah I’ve been on a few and the typical MO is to buff/charge through every dungeon like a horde of power mad lemmings … maybe there is some rp at the end … but it is nothing compared to a smaller group of say 6-7 that has to pause alms consider actions before moving forward ..

To those who argue “but I’ve done this dungeon 100x times” so what?
Ive slow walked low levels into the crypts tons of times, and gotten to rp with them… the rp needn’t be about the dungeon but about your companions ..

Remember Captain America winter soldier when Cap and BW are talking about getting cap a date with the girl in accounting … same idea if you have done a mission or dungeon a zillion times …

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2021, 09:04:23 AM »
Overly large groups don't add anything positive to the gameplay experience on this server. Getting turned away from a dungeon actually creates opportunity for role play down the road.

A cluster mob of PCs tagging along while 5 PCs clear a dungeon is really just power leveling.

I'm glad the Devs and DM team are not going the route of rewarding players for excessively large groups. This is an RP server, not an adventure server.

The object of this game is not to acquire the highest level as fast as you can or to obtain that fat loot so you can beat up your fellow players. The object of this game is to tell a compelling story and participate in a shared narrative while exploring a gothic horror atmosphere.

That said, I'm not advocating for exclusivity. Players would remember that even though their characters might disagree, they all have the same goal that is to tell a story. It's not really fun to tell a story by yourself. Disagreements on dungeon runs on how to perform ones duties are also a great way to drive story. It can either be a point of contention between two PC's or an opportunity for growth and practice for the unlearned.

We should just understand that running in a massive group and losing xp and rp for it didn't mean you're being punished. It just means you aren't being rewarded.

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2021, 10:31:10 AM »
Overly large groups don't add anything positive to the gameplay experience on this server. Getting turned away from a dungeon actually creates opportunity for role play down the road.

A cluster mob of PCs tagging along while 5 PCs clear a dungeon is really just power leveling.

I'm glad the Devs and DM team are not going the route of rewarding players for excessively large groups. This is an RP server, not an adventure server.

The object of this game is not to acquire the highest level as fast as you can or to obtain that fat loot so you can beat up your fellow players. The object of this game is to tell a compelling story and participate in a shared narrative while exploring a gothic horror atmosphere.

That said, I'm not advocating for exclusivity. Players would remember that even though their characters might disagree, they all have the same goal that is to tell a story. It's not really fun to tell a story by yourself. Disagreements on dungeon runs on how to perform ones duties are also a great way to drive story. It can either be a point of contention between two PC's or an opportunity for growth and practice for the unlearned.

We should just understand that running in a massive group and losing xp and rp for it didn't mean you're being punished. It just means you aren't being rewarded.

All great points, I will say this, on occasion this bizarre social anxiety will hit me when I’m around players I don’t know or normally rp with … when I push myself to engage (so long as it makes sense for my pc) I am 90% of the time pleasantly surprised to find, other people want to RP as well lol …

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2021, 12:35:28 PM »
Overly large groups don't add anything positive to the gameplay experience on this server. Getting turned away from a dungeon actually creates opportunity for role play down the road.

A cluster mob of PCs tagging along while 5 PCs clear a dungeon is really just power leveling.

I'm glad the Devs and DM team are not going the route of rewarding players for excessively large groups. This is an RP server, not an adventure server.

The object of this game is not to acquire the highest level as fast as you can or to obtain that fat loot so you can beat up your fellow players. The object of this game is to tell a compelling story and participate in a shared narrative while exploring a gothic horror atmosphere.

That said, I'm not advocating for exclusivity. Players would remember that even though their characters might disagree, they all have the same goal that is to tell a story. It's not really fun to tell a story by yourself. Disagreements on dungeon runs on how to perform ones duties are also a great way to drive story. It can either be a point of contention between two PC's or an opportunity for growth and practice for the unlearned.

We should just understand that running in a massive group and losing xp and rp for it didn't mean you're being punished. It just means you aren't being rewarded.

All great points, I will say this, on occasion this bizarre social anxiety will hit me when I’m around players I don’t know or normally rp with … when I push myself to engage (so long as it makes sense for my pc) I am 90% of the time pleasantly surprised to find, other people want to RP as well lol …

An all too familiar feeling. It doesn't do much to diminish my tendency of shelving PCs when all of their existing friends disappear from their lives...
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2021, 03:00:34 PM »
I'm glad the Devs and DM team are not going the route of rewarding players for excessively large groups. This is an RP server, not an adventure server.

RP and adventure don't have to be mutually exclusive. Ravenloft is a gothic horror adventure. Adventure, adversity, etc. can be great story kickers, even in a story where the horror is the point.

Personally I'd rather the level cap was lower so the arms race was less prevalent, but like Revenant said that ship has sailed. No matter what is done, people are going to play they want to play. I think the new changes were a step in the right direction, but slowing down grinders doesn't do much to address why XP grinders are even a problem in the first place if they're out of your hair, keeping busy in dungeons until they log out and wait for their cap to expire.

It doesn't make much sense to me that players are rewarded with more XP than others if they do hit dungeons if the "MMO mindset" is something people view as contrary to the purpose of the server. Why is there combat XP in the first place? Do levels matter or don't they?
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2021, 10:11:24 PM »
Why is there combat XP?

It's a mechanical form of progression similar to roleplay XP that is free from the bias of the alternative form of progression - milestone levelling.

In the same vein that people grinding out dungeons wont be rewarded as much as those that mix it up with roleplay, if a character never takes risks or pushes their character to their limits of their abilities, they aren't going to master higher forms of combat or greater spells as quickly. Someone who only roleplays (and probably doesnt need the levels) without any real danger shouldn't progress as quickly.

Campfire and Cave mechanical XP go hand in hand for a healthier experience when used together, and its better than having to ask DMs to moderate whether someone deserves a level or not.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 10:13:35 PM by zDark Shadowz »

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #111 on: October 24, 2021, 02:37:09 AM »
I'm glad the Devs and DM team are not going the route of rewarding players for excessively large groups. This is an RP server, not an adventure server.

RP and adventure don't have to be mutually exclusive. Ravenloft is a gothic horror adventure. Adventure, adversity, etc. can be great story kickers, even in a story where the horror is the point.

Personally I'd rather the level cap was lower so the arms race was less prevalent, but like Revenant said that ship has sailed. No matter what is done, people are going to play they want to play. I think the new changes were a step in the right direction, but slowing down grinders doesn't do much to address why XP grinders are even a problem in the first place if they're out of your hair, keeping busy in dungeons until they log out and wait for their cap to expire.

It doesn't make much sense to me that players are rewarded with more XP than others if they do hit dungeons if the "MMO mindset" is something people view as contrary to the purpose of the server. Why is there combat XP in the first place? Do levels matter or don't they?

Have you not been to Mist Camp? Where a party of 10+ players literally spend the next several hours running every dungeon from blaustein to Hazlam to Har Arkir and sometimes perfidus?  Sometimes multiple times in one day?  Forget xp for a minute, how does that even fit in on a rp server to begin with? 

This style of play doesn’t seem to jive with what is supposed to be a dark and scary rp setting…  it’s a step away from instanced dungeons and people posting  LFG banners over their heads.

Not to mention the ridiculous material advantage it gives certain players with access to end game materials which can (on the occasion they decide to rp their evil aligned pc) completely unbalance pvp more then it is …

If people want an MMO experience, go play an MMO , POTM isn’t the freeware Diablo/like loot grab that certain people seem to think it is… mind you I’m not knocking dungeon crawling at all, it’s literally the core of DND … but your statement of “why can’t we have both” doesn’t seem to recognize the unbalanced situation that exists…

I would make the argument that MC needs more RP to add some validity to the dungeon crawling and hopefully this new xp system will help encourage it.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 02:39:28 AM by SwordChucks »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #112 on: October 24, 2021, 03:47:54 AM »
The reason all of this stuff fits in an RP server is because it was designed from the ground up to support that style of gameplay. Info posts made by staff confirm this. Players are just doing things they learn are possible in the game. Unless a DM tells people to stop adventuring, what good does it do anyone to worry about what they're doing for fun?

The content of someone's roleplay is always going to be what interests them most. If they want to spend hours socialising in situations that aren't dangerous, they'll do that. If they want to spend hours out in dangerous areas, they'll do that.

What I'm actually asking isn't "why can't we have both" but why we even have adventuring grant XP, and why we even have a max level that can take well over a year of active play to reach, if people aren't supposed to try and get it.
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SwordChucks

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #113 on: October 24, 2021, 04:01:43 AM »
If that was the case, the there wouldn’t be a cap to the xp gained from adventuring.  Also, human nature looks for loopholes in all systems and this isn’t a paid jobs for DMs and devs, they don’t want to spend their time babysitting players to ensure the rp remains consistent with the server goals.
Which is why they create systems to carrot/ stick most behaviors. Like I said before Diablo 2 was just rereleased, and D4 is on its way, why bother with a RP server if your goal is dungeon>dungeon>dungeon which inadvertently impacts players who adventure now and again only to discover every friggin bit of content looted … frankly I’d be down for making ninja looting dungeons harder as well, it’s equally ridiculous one pc can make hundreds of thousands of fang sneaking thru dungeons solo..

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #114 on: October 24, 2021, 04:11:51 AM »
My question isn't "why shouldn't I grind endlessly and never RP" but rather why those things should grant rewards, let alone even be in the game, if they're so ridiculous.
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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #115 on: October 24, 2021, 04:23:40 AM »
frankly I’d be down for making ninja looting dungeons harder as well, it’s equally ridiculous one pc can make hundreds of thousands of fang sneaking thru dungeons solo..

I feel this is a common misunderstanding of cause and effect. Technically the problem there isn't about the items, it's about how much gold has been pumped into the economy by the number of players (a.k.a. "inflation"). Items found in dungeons aren't inherently worth hundreds of thousands of fang, but PCs are willing to pay those prices because they have that much gold. So ironically, making ninja looting harder would drive prices up, not down.
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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #116 on: October 24, 2021, 08:06:34 AM »
My question isn't "why shouldn't I grind endlessly and never RP" but rather why those things should grant rewards, let alone even be in the game, if they're so ridiculous.

Why would you replace one extreme with another? Noone said the pursuit of  xp, adventure etc is ridiculous. Just that for some reason people are inadvertently exploiting those system on the server at the moment, and with the New xp rule it wil hopefully encourage more activities and engagement outside of dungeoning. 

Leveling up, dungeoning, are parts of the game.  They should absolutely continue to be. On a server where RP is the focus they need to be moderated so they aren’t exploited or detract from the key themes and intent of the server.

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #117 on: October 24, 2021, 09:05:39 AM »
My question isn't "why shouldn't I grind endlessly and never RP" but rather why those things should grant rewards, let alone even be in the game, if they're so ridiculous.

Because the progression is still fun. Gaining power is still fun. Getting loot is still fun. But my argument from early is that it's not the point of this game. When I say this game I'm referring specifically to Ravenloft: PotM, not D&D as a whole. The point of this game is a shared narrative that includes progression.

Our stories are shared by our experiences and our growth. Without growth, we're just playing the Sims. So the two are still important, but should not be the driving factor behind what we do.

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #118 on: October 24, 2021, 10:03:29 AM »
My question isn't "why shouldn't I grind endlessly and never RP" but rather why those things should grant rewards, let alone even be in the game, if they're so ridiculous.

Because the progression is still fun. Gaining power is still fun. Getting loot is still fun. But my argument from early is that it's not the point of this game. When I say this game I'm referring specifically to Ravenloft: PotM, not D&D as a whole. The point of this game is a shared narrative that includes progression.

Our stories are shared by our experiences and our growth. Without growth, we're just playing the Sims. So the two are still important, but should not be the driving factor behind what we do.

States much better then me. Agree 100%

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #119 on: October 24, 2021, 11:21:24 AM »
frankly I’d be down for making ninja looting dungeons harder as well, it’s equally ridiculous one pc can make hundreds of thousands of fang sneaking thru dungeons solo..

I feel this is a common misunderstanding of cause and effect. Technically the problem there isn't about the items, it's about how much gold has been pumped into the economy by the number of players (a.k.a. "inflation"). Items found in dungeons aren't inherently worth hundreds of thousands of fang, but PCs are willing to pay those prices because they have that much gold. So ironically, making ninja looting harder would drive prices up, not down.

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But on a serious note. There is a very real, very costly (to player count and engagement) method of inflation in games - and that is variable inflation of incentive, reward, and cost. Gaming terms for this are XP/Gold grind, power creep, and Old money vs New money.

In video games - particularly multiplayer MMOs to old school online RPGs like Ultima and Runescape, there was a notable problem in continuing to keep players engaged through growing end-game, or high-level content. The challenge to the developers was to continually create content that would keep players engaged and challenge their characters. This would result in increased level caps, new loot and gear to bolster a character, and new areas that required the absolute best, most optimal gear and strategy to overcome.

Developers are human beings, and along the way, they make mistakes - including the creation of loot that is far too unbalanced, the offering of too large an incentive for certain playstyles, and adjusting the rarity of certain necessary items to cause artificial inflation of price in markets/auctions. In initial creation, these acts cause a notable incentive, and player engagement - but often, they also begin to create an in-game wealth gap between a small percentage of players and the rest. How do we reverse this or at least curb it?

If in a small DnD game with players around my table, I award a magic item that is clearly far too powerful and has elevated one character above the others that it is impacting the game, I can talk with the players and most will agree to tone down that magic item to keep the game going. That personal connection does not exist as well in online RPG-style games. When in-game inflation of currency or items was fixed via the removal of coin or items, entire games have gone to the wayside in response. After all, there are no greater nerfs than that of removing or lessening in-game wealth. Players, regardless of their rationality, hate losing items and coin they rightfully earned - and that is fair!

All of that was a precept to what Porg is talking about. In-game currency has inflated, to a ridiculous amount, because over time, incentives have been found and capitalized upon in order to both secure large amounts of coin and secure dangerously obtained rare items. One only needs to attend an auction to see that the weights of supply and demand, and reasonability in price, are tossed out of the window. Coin has very little weight and value to it, for those who have managed to secure insane amounts of wealth - and they will appear each and every time to utilize that wealth that they have secured. 

Progression and gaining incentives are something that cannot be removed without completely destroying the game. This balancing act is too difficult for anyone to truly solve without upsetting numbers of people. Not reacting to it has about as much harm as reacting to it.

This Geistonomics idea does create an incentive for larger parties, which are sometimes more difficult to coordinate. If the best, rarest items appear when only 20+ people are in the dungeon - then those items will become supremely inflated in value, purchased at insane prices by old money. I do like the idea of Geistonomics. I think there should be places in the server that come accompanied with incentives for involving more people - these incentives being unique experiences and rewards - but I believe there is something that can be coupled with it to help prevent it from becoming yet another source of rare, highly inflated items...

...and that is making the reward a quest item that can be gifted to someone present at its awarding, but that is all. Make a command for the character to be able to trash it - but these rewards cannot be traded, sold, etc. The item can only be secured through participation, and because of the large party structure, even the least combat effective persons can participate so long as the difficulty level is not insane.

Unique experiences, and unique rewards that only the participating players can achieve, will help avoid making this another problem of variable inflation imho, and also encourage everyone to go to these places to boot. If you create the Geistonomics situation and refrain from controlling the rewards, however, it will result in a lot of grief and inflation - because getting that item from the geistonomic dungeon to the hands of the wealthiest buyer becomes a rat race.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 11:35:38 AM by ScalesofEquilibrium »
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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #120 on: October 24, 2021, 03:03:33 PM »
I would rather see loot and XP scale up to properly reward a party of 5 to inhibit soloing, just like XP scales down for parties 6 and over.

If you think massive groups are trashing all the spawns, wait until you see what happens when even more people realise they're capable of soloing dungeons while others are bumbling around trying to find a group. 10 soloers in 10 different dungeons vs. 10 people in one group going from dungeon to dungeon one after the other? It starts to make sense.

I personally do not want to see bind-on-pickup items. We already have quest items which reward experience, maybe they could reward more or something. But you still have soloers, people getting carried, and people grinding all day crushing the spawns that other people feel entitled to.

It would be great if you could somehow better reward the players who were actually there, but apparently the issue stems from the fact that not enough unique parties are getting to experience dungeons.

My question isn't "why shouldn't I grind endlessly and never RP" but rather why those things should grant rewards, let alone even be in the game, if they're so ridiculous.

Because the progression is still fun. Gaining power is still fun. Getting loot is still fun. But my argument from early is that it's not the point of this game. When I say this game I'm referring specifically to Ravenloft: PotM, not D&D as a whole. The point of this game is a shared narrative that includes progression.

Our stories are shared by our experiences and our growth. Without growth, we're just playing the Sims. So the two are still important, but should not be the driving factor behind what we do.

States much better then me. Agree 100%

If the progression of power and gear is still fun, it can be done in other ways than a system that promotes endless grinding at the detriment of others (you outpace them in levels and prevent them from dungeoning by controlling the spawns).

I still completely disagree with the idea that anyone could blame others for playing their way. The devs have to continue introducing iterative changes, the new XP change isn't going to solve every problem. People will still grind when and how they want, and whatever you think, they are at liberty to make adventure their RP baseplate, and their RP is no less valid for it.

edit: I also don't see how you could say RP without the growth of levels and money is The Sims when that game has... levels and money. I've seen so many RP servers do just fine without any form of static or player-driven opportunity economy, and certainly no dungeons. In fact, when I noticed those servers become event-driven & systemized with progression mechanics and economies, the RP began to take a backseat as people became obsessed with such progression. They didn't want to talk to new people, they wanted to roam the map and find the equivalent of herbs and loot spawns. They didn't want conflict because they'd lose all their hard-earned loot if their character died. NWN, according to your criticisms of the server environment right now, is no different. RP is RP, and it's more about the people you're RPing with than the XP you got or the item you looted. So, why wouldn't the adventure for the sake of the RP be its own reward?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 03:19:13 PM by SardineTheAncestor »
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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #121 on: October 27, 2021, 05:18:39 PM »
Just a further thought after the XP revision was implemented.

I understand the XP changes were given to deter the fast paced dungeon running as per the announcement thread.

Yes this will deter some of this. But I would point out plenty of people will continue to run dungeons fast because regardless of XP, people want loot and coin.

A lot of people feel pressured to do so because how the game economy works. Its a lot of greed and hoarding.

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Now considering game design choices...
The reason halting XP gains seems passable for the most part is because its almost intangible and unobservable. Players can not see their experience with clarity. Sure we value our characters growth, but its not in your face.

However when it comes to loot, its very clear what you get or do NOT get. It is tangible.
And if one were to suggest a similar mechanic on treasures, where it scales lower as you loot more, we would express a lot more grievance and opposition.

Now if I were to suggest a loot scaling, loot value would decrease as you loot.  You would want to determine the time frame for it to return to normal. I would think something in the 6 hour to 24 hour range would be fair. We like the idea of being able to login each day and find something worthwhile. Anyways this would be up for debate.
I would secondly push that RP reduces the negative Loot Scaling.
You would need to further take careful consideration on who affects the loot when there is a group. And how do you ensure there is no cheesing by players leaving before the loot interaction. Perhaps the current loot system already has checks like these.

Lastly, no I don't expect anything like this to ever be implemented. Its a huge stretch from typical mechanics. But its a way that could change the behavior of nonstop dungeon looters towards more beneficial server play.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 04:58:30 AM by Rocket »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #122 on: October 27, 2021, 11:39:51 PM »
I don't necessarily disagree, but I do think there something has to be something put in place to stop people from grinding dungeons. Not disincentivise it by giving them less XP, but flat out stop them, if the intention is to prevent them from lowering spawns for everyone else.

Ninjalooters are by and large nondisruptive since they have a special consideration in place, wherein loot respawns at the proper level after they leave for a certain amount of time. Ninjalooters can't join a dungeon group that's going somewhere they've already looted, or the loot will be set to a very low level.

Soloers actually kill enemies and lower the spawn level. I'm not calling out anyone who solos regularly or irregularly here, I totally understand why people do it when it's often more convenient than finding a whole group that you fit into when you get that dungeon itch, I'm just mentioning that it is a significant contribution to the problem of people not being able to find a dungeon in their level range, since there are only so many dungeons.

Groups speedrunning dungeons back to back is one thing. Just like soloers and ninjalooters, everyone is free to clear stuff however they want. Arguably, you are doing the most good by guaranteeing you get out of that dungeon as soon as possible so the spawn can rebuild more quickly, at least that's what I would assume.

But a group is 5 people moving through locations one at a time. 5 soloers can wipe out 5 dungeons in around the same time - no need to talk to anyone, ask what spells are needed, sometimes just kill the boss and leave after looting it, and so on.

I think if devs nerf the loot and XP that soloers receive, and maybe do the same for groups smaller than 4 or 5 players, a lot more dungeons will be on spawn more frequently, thus a better chance of being able to log in and just find an adventure without having to invest a ton of extra time just looking around the world.

It wouldn't be perfect but it would be a start. The only bulletproof way of doing it would be putting dungeons into instances, but I don't think it'll be a popular idea.
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Nezmith

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #123 on: October 28, 2021, 12:16:12 AM »
I think if devs nerf the loot and XP that soloers receive, and maybe do the same for groups smaller than 4 or 5 players

Whew, not sure about that. Same problem you mentioned with soloers being compelled to dungeon on their own because they can't find groups or some reason or another- sometimes you can't get more than a handful of people. I have a dim view on soloing and (moderately less) on duoing, but I think any group that does form shouldn't be punished for a lack of availability.

I'm thinking a lot of solutions toward soloing will all require the introduction of scripts running at all times or atleast frequently enough to detect when someone is soloing. That could simply be out of the question, or may even interfere with server stability. As much as I'd like it, having thought of something like 'hell mode' for entering a dungeon alone, where monsters have considerably more HP/damage/spot/listen modifiers (they have no distractions and only focus on you in battle) such that only the best of the best will be able to pull off solo/ninjalooting, I just don't know if something like that is feasible. The simplest solution is frankly to introduce a rule against it, or perhaps establish no-go areas for soloers- perhaps dungeons that require the presence of more than one person to even enter- think the crypts below Vallaki with two pressure plates instead of one.

Another (big) solution is to simply get rid of spawn variance in dungeons. It seems like most of the time those scripts don't even work as intended. As described, we are to expect the strongest spawns after a dungeon has been left undisturbed for a relatively long period of time, and weaker spawns following a dungeon having been cleared. I've noticed, particularly in the Vallaki crypts, this isn't the case at all. Immediately after clearing a very weak spawn in the crypts, not even 30 minutes later you can walk down and occasionally find knights on the first floor- being the strongest of spawns. If devs modified it so there was less spawn variance there'd also be less dungeon hunting, as I'm thinking one of the biggest problems the server faces is a lack of *enough* dungeon choices and enough *reliable* choices at all levels. I think the spider cave is the best example of this because you can get anywhere from spiderling swarms (level 2 xp?) to greater dire spiders (up to level ~7). A level 7 group that went to the spider cave and found spiderling swarms now has to search out yet another dungeon to fight in, meaning one dungeon was out of the list of possibilities to begin with. The wasp tower can be another great example because sometimes no mobs spawn there at all, yet you can still pick up loot. As I see it, the bigger the server gets, the worse that dynamic will become.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 12:17:54 AM by Nezmith »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better
« Reply #124 on: October 28, 2021, 12:45:15 AM »
I agree, sometimes you can't get a full group and just having to drop the idea altogether would be very unfortunate. It can be a fun challenge to see if a group of 2-4 can run something if they are working together at their best.

I will say that this seems intentional though, as the devs would probably want us to seek out extra people even if to establish IC contact with new people and keep spinning the web of opportunity.

I think soloing is the most harmful though and it's the only thing that really needs a real penalty. I understand the fun and independence factor entirely, but to me it reads like a self-defeating prophecy. Groups aren't forming because soloers aren't making themselves available. This lack of availability - both in full groups, and in dungeons to tackle - is because of soloers. A smaller number of soloers than party players causes a greater amount of harm because of the math involved. They are out there just taking it for themselves, while others looking to group up are stuck waiting for someone to come along. Unsurprisingly, most people are not willing to go outside a dungeon and let passersby know they are preparing to clear it, because hubs are too magnetic.

I also agree that the spawn level system creates more problems than it seems to solve, it's always been a gripe of mine that clearing a dungeon gives you the intel that it is clear and only you know if you wait long enough, you can go back and it will be full spawn. For those people who really are on all day, or play at multiple different times on the same day consecutively, this is essentially a dungeon camp, the very thing that the spawn level system was trying to solve (preventing farming of the same dungeons over and over, in the devs' own words).
Insatisfait permanent, c'est ça l'apanage du champion.