Paladin multiclassing

[Preacher83]

The paladin could multiclass with some of the base classes, instead only a few prestige. It is so much restrict and and a cleric/fighter could surpass any paladin. The lack of skill points, buff spells or even, and more important, more interesting concepts to rp would be beneficied with a less strict restrition.

[Anarcoplayba]

It is KINDA addressed, but I believe that the best way IMHO is not relaxing the multiclassing rules, but giving Pallies high-end feats, just like fighters got.

[Revenant]

Paladin spellcasting is potent and also unique. A cleric/fighter does not just flatly surpass any paladin. They can self-buff their relevant stats, twice thanks to their unique spells, and get access to tools like Holy Sword and Sacred Haven, the latter of which is a unique party-wide +2 AC that stacks in all reasonable cases. They also have better HP and better standing AB.

The class isn't broken, but it's by no means weak. Even most prestige classes (including a restricted one that I personally think should be open) serve only to make them weaker than a pure paladin.

[Preacher83]

Paladin spellcasting is potent and also unique. A cleric/fighter does not just flatly surpass any paladin. They can self-buff their relevant stats, twice thanks to their unique spells, and get access to tools like Holy Sword and Sacred Haven, the latter of which is a unique party-wide +2 AC that stacks in all reasonable cases. They also have better HP and better standing AB.

The class isn't broken, but it's by no means weak. Even most prestige classes (including a restricted one that I personally think should be open) serve only to make them weaker than a pure paladin.

This apply just in high end levels. And there, +2ac makes little difference in comparison cleric buffs (even war domain  could give that with the dex boost) or fighter feats. A pure paladin is less effective than a pure cleric or a pure fighter, basically because the spread needed in stats. To cast holy sword, wis 14 is needed. To a decent use of dm or ds, char 16. At least int 12 for skill points or 13 for expertise (which is a life saver when soloing). Con no less than 14, same as Str. With some multoclassing, you got options to optimize even a build that average.
Don't get me wrong, I love to play as paladin. Always my guy in every D&D game, but there is a reason why the multiclassing restrictions are nowhere so hard like PoTM.

[EO]

We think paladins are in a good spot balance-wise and we don't plan to review the multiclassing rules.

[zDark Shadowz]

Paladin spellcasting is potent and also unique. A cleric/fighter does not just flatly surpass any paladin. They can self-buff their relevant stats, twice thanks to their unique spells, and get access to tools like Holy Sword and Sacred Haven, the latter of which is a unique party-wide +2 AC that stacks in all reasonable cases.

Cleric does beat out paladin when it comes to spells. Especially war domain for fighting, healing domain for healing, and the spells in general before then.

The only thing a cleric can't do is cast Aura of Glory and will have one less attack per round, on the bad end of attacks. The sheer power up from spells outpaces Smite Evil's limited uses. Divine Power + Bull's Strength stacks up their strength twice, domain powers and Aura of Vitality access can do it a third and fourth time.

Holy Sword is good, but a cleric can cast greater dispel from a distance. Sacred Haven is good, but clerics have Undeaths' Eternal Foe which does more.

Divine Favor, Bless, Aid, Prayer, Battletide, Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Lion's Roar... it adds up to more AB than a paladin can get on their own. Even with the nerf to divine favor, that's a +19 spell AB bonus, it almost hits the cap of +20, and thats not mentioning all the spells a cleric has access to, or the conversion of excess spells into healing and considerably more spells than a paladin in general.

~~~

Though all that is irrelevant, clerics are better, gods give too much power, people misuse it etc etc.

If you play a paladin I would hope it's not because you want to play a strong character, there's ample enough other builds for power, and there's a lot more to a paladin than that...

... and there's only so many changes you can make to D&D until it's no longer the version of D&D that Ravenloft has been supporting & adhering to.

Paladin's have heavy multi-class restrictions here, but it's not too far from the source material.

If a paladin stops levelling paladin in the source, they'd still keep their paladin powers until they break their oaths, but they can never again advance as a paladin as it requires a constant heart.

Due to the nature of things like the relevel crystal and when forced relevels need to be done due to the introductions of new skills and feats, the source material restrictions doesn't reconciliate well with the ability to rebuild a character from the ground up. Acquiring more total levels means a potential to rebuild for more paladin levels before multiclassing again, with no time efficient way to verify it, so this is likely why the stance on multiclassing paladin here is the way it is.

Its more based on logic to the systems that are currently in use than any particular jab at paladins that want to multiclass in general, and all classes here get twice as many feats as usual so paladin already has access to far more customization than they normally do get.

[Famous Seamus]

Heyo. A fellow paladin player here. Lot of good points being made here. I've had some questions about multiclassing in the past, and I was pleased to see it opened/expanded to some PrCs recently.

Having said that, I recognize EO has already pointed out there are no planned changes to the class, so I won't go down that road.

After thinking about it, I don't know how helpful it would be to multiclass a paladin on POTM. Yes, it's a weaker cleric than a cleric and a weaker fighter than a fighter, but where multiclassing might bring some potential to beef it up, it could also gimp it pretty hard.

Paladins don't really take off or come into their own until paladin level 10-12, right? With POTM's 10-level split rule, that means you'd have to push that back to total character level 11-13 on a multiclassed character at the very earliest. Then you'd have to wait to go even higher on paladin level so you don't split greater than 10 levels. The split would also mean your max could only ever be 15 paladin/5 other class, right? And given the split rules, you wouldn't be able to take your final paladin level until character level 20. That's a long time to wait to get that delicious Holy Sword and Sacred Haven (and they do make a difference!). Waiting that long to get Restoration, Death Ward, or Freedom of Movement would also hurt.

I'd really go so far as to say that paladins have no reason to take a prestige class (even Divine Champ) for anything other than RP flavor. Giving up those high paladin levels and delaying the class progression is a big sacrifice. That's just my opinion, though.

Maybe some of the fun of playing a paladin is the RP, like a poster said above. You aren't a fighter or cleric; you're something in between, right? It's niche, but there's a lot you can do with that. On the combat side, you can competently go warrior, off-healer, or both. On the RP side, if your character's faith allows, you could go knight, priest, or--heck--both. It's pretty dynamic. Not to mention at higher levels, your Lay on Hands, fully buffed, can deal mind-blowing amounts of damage to undead, even more on a crit (because it can crit undead). Some of that flavor and versatility (and power) gets lost upon multiclassing--maybe in favor of more versatility. I guess it would depend on the class combo.

The stat spread on a pure paladin can be rough, yeah, but it's not crushing. A paladin can comfortably coast by with 12 CON, and 12 INT (or 13 for Expertise) isn't mandatory. You can do OK without it--espeically with Divine Vigor, Divine Shield, and Righteous Fury--but your soloing capacity will be lower than paladins who do have it.

Just some advantages and disadvantages as I see them. Nothing is to say the OP or anyone is wrong. I'm actually curious, especially from the OP's perspective: If a paladin could multiclass with base classes, which would you envision as combos?

[Vissy]

I'll just say from my experience that the toughest and most powerful straight-up warrior characters I know are high-level paladins. A paladin would be straight up weaker when multiclassed.

[Revenant]

Paladin spellcasting is potent and also unique. A cleric/fighter does not just flatly surpass any paladin. They can self-buff their relevant stats, twice thanks to their unique spells, and get access to tools like Holy Sword and Sacred Haven, the latter of which is a unique party-wide +2 AC that stacks in all reasonable cases.

Cleric does beat out paladin when it comes to spells. Especially war domain for fighting, healing domain for healing, and the spells in general before then.

I dislike bumping this thread since EO's already provided the short and sweet answer to the main thrust, but to clarify: I was not saying that a Paladin is a better spellcaster than a pure cleric (that would be absurd) or a better swing-stick than a pure fighter (form feats alone guarantee that almost nobody is). I was saying that putting a Paladin next to a Cleric/Fighter (which has the maximum spread of 15/5), the picture is not remotely bleak for the paladin.

Also, show me the level 20 Cleric/Fighter that can cast a 9th level slot in Undeath's Eternal Foe.

Spoiler: Snip • show

Paladin spellcasting is potent and also unique. A cleric/fighter does not just flatly surpass any paladin. They can self-buff their relevant stats, twice thanks to their unique spells, and get access to tools like Holy Sword and Sacred Haven, the latter of which is a unique party-wide +2 AC that stacks in all reasonable cases. They also have better HP and better standing AB.

The class isn't broken, but it's by no means weak. Even most prestige classes (including a restricted one that I personally think should be open) serve only to make them weaker than a pure paladin.

This apply just in high end levels. And there, +2ac makes little difference in comparison cleric buffs (even war domain  could give that with the dex boost) or fighter feats. A pure paladin is less effective than a pure cleric or a pure fighter, basically because the spread needed in stats. To cast holy sword, wis 14 is needed. To a decent use of dm or ds, char 16. At least int 12 for skill points or 13 for expertise (which is a life saver when soloing). Con no less than 14, same as Str. With some multoclassing, you got options to optimize even a build that average.
Don't get me wrong, I love to play as paladin. Always my guy in every D&D game, but there is a reason why the multiclassing restrictions are nowhere so hard like PoTM.

A cleric/fighter would still need to invest in Charisma to get benefit from DM/DS, and needs significantly more Wisdom. A d10 class can and absolutely does get away with 12 Con if you want even 14 Int (which I favor, but plenty don't put stock in expertise on paladin). Soloing is not intended gameplay, it will never be balanced in favor of. Mundanes and semi-mundanes do it only against things under their weight class, casters do it by looking at the server's design and balance and saying "lol, lmao."

There's the possibility I misunderstood the phrasing of the original post. If the statement is that pure cleric or pure fighter surpass any paladin, rather than the multiclass - sure. In their given spheres. Cleric is a fantastic caster and if you let them do their DBZ powerup they can basically cap their AB, although many of the buffs are somewhat short term. Fighter is now a monster that makes Pathfinder pure class capstones blush and, despite being mundane, can cap its own AB via the fighter feats and a trio of consumables - absolutely nobody looks good at swinging next to them, though amusingly the stat requirements for their feats encourage them to have Paladin-esque balanced stats.

Paladin is a casting frontliner, rather than a pure caster or a mundane, that brings tangential benefits for the party. They get an additional free +4 to both of their combat stats (Charisma and Strength) and have great saves in a world where you're going to be eating DCs regularly. They do not just do the job of the cleric better or do the job of the fighter better, and as a hybrid they wouldn't be balanced if they did. They're a class with good self-buffs that alleviate party resources (including aforementioned Bless, Prayer, Aid, GMW, and Divine Favor), excellent anti-undead tools (Bless Weapon is better than any other weapon damage spell or varnish for a significant number of dungeons), powerful clutch healing, excellent saves, great damage and AC from DM/DS without sacrificing Strength/Con for Wisdom that a cleric needs, and less wind-up to reach their cap than a cleric.

The strongest argument for multiclassing a paladin is using it as a dip to get DM/DS and Divine Grace, at which point you're not buffing paladin by opening up multiclassing, you're buffing the builds that pay lip service to being a paladin. Any paladin-dominant spread will want to get as much paladin as they can because of the casting and therefore be disincentivized to multiclass.

[QDS]

  I think the Paladin has a specific job in Ravenloft. Smite evil and specifically the undead. And for that purpose, I tend to believe they are the best at what they are supposed to do. Many a times I seen very strong MPCs exploded by lay on hands. Add the new feats that come with the turn ability and the paladin can literally nuke a full room of undead while keeping everyone else alive and well (not to mention the area of effect buffs that come with those feats).
  I do play a cleric/fighter and I did defeat paladins in duels BUT barely (also not at max level). I think paladins should not be able to multiclass (and even the current multiclass options are not worth it for what they offer). With one exception: what if my little Barovian fighter joins the Ezra Church, let's say, and it is trained and becomes a paladin? Normally, you literally need to remake the character and those fighter levels go "bye-bye". Other way is to get a prestige class like DC or DoP but that is no paladin. Perhaps multiclassing can be allowed in such situation but only with application to the CC and could be extremely restricted.