You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Confusion over XP system  (Read 1248 times)

Bouquet of Lotuses

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
Confusion over XP system
« on: September 14, 2021, 10:43:56 AM »
I'm probably not the only one who is confused, so here goes:

A recent thread was closed because discussion of an XP curve came up. The closing message stated that others' XP does not affect your own:

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=60159.msg705432#msg705432

Quote
XP is not based on others' progression. At this point, since we've clarified that the system works as intended, I'll lock this topic since it's devolved into speculation.

However, this is not what the Servers Feature says. I'm looking for clarification, as I'm legitimately quite confused.

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=16042.msg183203#msg183203

Quote
The XP Cap

The XP cap isn't a "hard"-cap, meaning it will not result in you hitting a point where you can no longer gain XP. It will however result in gradually reducing your XP gains if your accumulated XP gain over time is higher than the general playerbase average, limiting the span of how far you can get "ahead" of this average. This procedural approach is why we also call it a "soft"-cap. Conversely, it will also result in increased gains if you gain lower than average over time. The time used to measure this is both online and offline time, and is tied to the individual character rather than the player. Additionally, the cap becomes more narrow when reaching higher levels, effectively slowing high level progression.

Parts of the resting message will reflect the condition of your XP cap, sometimes suggesting you to pace up or slow down. Don't let this dismay you from pursuing the play and roleplay you feel most incited to play. Take it as a suggestion. The XP cap will never punish you, only slow down how far ahead you go compared to other characters who've existed as long as yours.

The Server Features definitely makes it sound like progression is based on PCs who were created around the same time as yours, or at the very least that it is affected by other players. Would it be possible to get some clarification of which is true?
Else Dvornikov - Akolyte of the Tyrant

Church of the Lawgiver - Sign up for tyranny today!

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2021, 11:36:55 AM »
Replying to follow the discussion and also understand better the system.

1) IF the playerbase is considered, is it the playerbase accounted by activity (people log in and grind/don't grind) or all the PC's in the vault?
1.1) IF all the PC's in the vault, could we have another "purge" like the one we had years ago?

2) This average could take into consideration the average of the players by level? It is really bad to be "expulsed" from Vallaki to not linger around the low levels, losing even RPXP and havind the mass of the playerbase pulling down the average.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2021, 12:10:58 PM »
Quote
The XP cap isn't a "hard"-cap, meaning it will not result in you hitting a point where you can no longer gain XP. It will however result in gradually reducing your XP gains if your accumulated XP gain over time is higher than the general playerbase average, limiting the span of how far you can get "ahead" of this average. This procedural approach is why we also call it a "soft"-cap. Conversely, it will also result in increased gains if you gain lower than average over time. The time used to measure this is both online and offline time, and is tied to the individual character rather than the player. Additionally, the cap becomes more narrow when reaching higher levels, effectively slowing high level progression.

I think this is referring to a predetermined rate at which you can gain experience points, not active data crunching. If all people are capped by the same daily amount, that daily amount becomes the general playerbase average.

Quote
Parts of the resting message will reflect the condition of your XP cap, sometimes suggesting you to pace up or slow down. Don't let this dismay you from pursuing the play and roleplay you feel most incited to play. Take it as a suggestion. The XP cap will never punish you, only slow down how far ahead you go compared to other characters who've existed as long as yours.

If you and another create characters on the same day, you will both be level 2, you will both progress at the same rate. If neither of you ever push into the soft cap penalty (ignoring RP XP for this example), you will be at the same level all the time. The same level as a character that has existed as long as yours.

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 12:13:25 PM »

Quote
Parts of the resting message will reflect the condition of your XP cap, sometimes suggesting you to pace up or slow down. Don't let this dismay you from pursuing the play and roleplay you feel most incited to play. Take it as a suggestion. The XP cap will never punish you, only slow down how far ahead you go compared to other characters who've existed as long as yours.

If you and another create characters on the same day, you will both be level 2, you will both progress at the same rate. If neither of you ever push into the soft cap penalty (ignoring RP XP for this example), you will be at the same level all the time. The same level as a character that has existed as long as yours.

But I we two create characters in the same day, but one character is dropped and the other no?
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2021, 12:59:57 PM »
As EO said, XP is not based on others' progression.

If you start at the same time as another character, both characters will progress at around the same rate because all characters at the same level progress at the same rate, provided both characters are actually dungeoning. The cap prevents one character from pulling too far ahead of another - that's what the cap does.

If one person stops playing, obviously the person that isn't playing isn't going to progress anymore.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 01:04:38 PM by Bad_Bud »

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2021, 01:04:05 PM »
As EO said, XP is not based on others' progression.

If you start at the same time as another character, both characters will progress at around the same rate because all characters at the same level progress at the same rate, provided both characters are actually dungeoning. The cap prevents one character from pulling too far ahead of another - that's what the cap does.

If one person stops playing, obviously the person that isn't playing isn't going to progress anymore.

I'm sorry, but I'd like to be sure:

The cap prevents one character of pulling too ahead from another. Ok.

If one person stops playing, obviously, this person will not progress. Ok.

But, if two characters are created in the same moment and one person stops palying and the other don't, will that cause the cap to hold back the person who did not stop playing?
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2021, 01:06:34 PM »
Ok, I'll admit I'm starting to get frustrated with the questions here. Just ignore the clarifications and focus only on the direct answer:

Quote
XP is not based on others' progression.

That's all that matters to your question.

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2021, 01:08:25 PM »
Ok, I'll admit I'm starting to get frustrated with the questions here. Just ignore the clarifications and focus only on the direct answer:

Quote
XP is not based on others' progression.

That's all that matters to your question.

Ok, then, please, can this be fixed?

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=16042.msg183203#msg183203
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

Bouquet of Lotuses

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2021, 01:55:39 PM »
Ok, I'll admit I'm starting to get frustrated with the questions here. Just ignore the clarifications and focus only on the direct answer:

Quote
XP is not based on others' progression.

That's all that matters to your question.

People are still confused, why are you frustrated with us for being confused?
Else Dvornikov - Akolyte of the Tyrant

Church of the Lawgiver - Sign up for tyranny today!

Duayne

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2021, 02:21:24 PM »
EO says one thing. The actual thread detailing how the system works says another. That is the confusion.

I did not take part in the previous thread about this, but the answer is still unclear after reading through both.

If you're getting frustrated answering these questions around this, then don't, and let another member try to clarify the contradiction. You're only making yourself, and in turn, the rest of the team look bad with blunt, condesending and void answers. as this thread seems to have been created off the back of that answer given on the previous thread before being locked, it still contradicts what it says on the Server Features and Systems thread. Taking an average of player XP gains = XP is based on others' progression to a degree.

Kaninchen

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 02:22:21 PM »
Best solution is to turn off rest messages, and just play your PC how you see fit. Enjoy the RP, and dungeoning, and worry less about the exp system, imo.

Bouquet of Lotuses

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2021, 02:23:40 PM »
Best solution is to turn off rest messages, and just play your PC how you see fit. Enjoy the RP, and dungeoning, and worry less about the exp system, imo.

Well, it seems relevant to overall play experience and server balance if some people have a permanent XP boost and others have a permanent XP penalty based on who also made a character around the same time. Thus, the desire for clarity.
Else Dvornikov - Akolyte of the Tyrant

Church of the Lawgiver - Sign up for tyranny today!

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2021, 02:34:14 PM »
Best solution is to turn off rest messages, and just play your PC how you see fit. Enjoy the RP, and dungeoning, and worry less about the exp system, imo.

Then the system should be simple abandoned.

Let's get back from begining:

The system do not show XP numerically, only give you orientations on how you advanced (I'm ok with that).
There is a penalty of XP to penalize grinders (I'm ok with that).
There is also a penalty to RPXP to inform your character that you should not be in a determined area (I'm ok with that).

However, the penalty seems (to me) completely inconsistent, since I need one week to lose the penalty, but with one message "you could have performe better faced the right challenge" I'm back to the strongest penalty.

If there is a penalty it is to stimulate one way of playing and you cannot blame us for wanting a clear statement.

Also, if there is a penalty, "turn off the XP and play as you like" is not a solution, since it can lead do a lvl 18 PC spending his days in Vallaki devastating every single low level dungeon only to get resources to craft and keep the population safe.

Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

Abear

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
  • You are not a human being.
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2021, 03:26:39 PM »
I think the XP system works fine and I've never had any issues or complaints with it. It makes sense and seems to function as intended. The system has been left vague on purpose and I don't think we're going to get many more answers than what we've gotten already.

Complaining about it after being answered seems like a good way to just annoy the developers, who don't want to share the secrets of the system, or have the system be impacted in a way that many people don't prefer, which has happened before. (See edelweiss.)
Current: Sásha Kostoviç
Occasionally: Blair Florescu


Bouquet of Lotuses

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2021, 03:29:45 PM »
The confusion here is that answers were given which directly contradict what the developers already choose to share on the XP system.

Why is it annoying to ask for clarification? Two directly contradictory answers have been given. If the stated rules are wrong shouldn't they be corrected so misinformation doesn't continue to be spread?

Why are we so afraid of discussing things?
Else Dvornikov - Akolyte of the Tyrant

Church of the Lawgiver - Sign up for tyranny today!

AgentGibbs

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2021, 03:53:53 PM »
The xp system works like this (from what I understand from reading the posts).

Player 1 and player 2 both create new PCs on day 1, both play this PC exclusively and often until day 30, but each PC is of course different. Player 1's PC is a blood seeking barbarian that only wants to smash things, they gain most of their xp through combat. Player 2's PC is a scholar that only goes into dangerous situations to learn about the area, and as such spends more time rping but still goes to dungeon from time to time. Both these characters starting at the same time, should still gain the same amount of xp over the 30 days, because as Player 1 is constantly grinding dungeons, eventually they enter exp penalties on combat xp (and it is combat xp only from my understanding), and while player 2 is not gaining as much combat xp, they never reach these exp penalties because they do not constantly dungeon. Thus despite player 1 being in blind drive, and player 2 being in possible bonus xp, both characters should be at (or close to) the same level after 30 days.

It is irrelevant to either player if the other player stops playing because as stated above, the XP you gain is not based on another player's progression. So if either player stops playing that character is has no effect on the other player. The comparison between the two becomes voided at that time, the system just works in a way to prevent two people that play equal amounts of time that also started at the same time to not fall behind another character based on the rp style of that character, ie. Dungeon grinders, nor rp focused PCs gain xp faster than the other. (As long as the rp focused PCs do actually dungeon).
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 03:56:43 PM by AgentGibbs »

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1796
  • dat boi
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2021, 03:54:37 PM »
The confusion here is that answers were given which directly contradict what the developers already choose to share on the XP system.

Why is it annoying to ask for clarification? Two directly contradictory answers have been given. If the stated rules are wrong shouldn't they be corrected so misinformation doesn't continue to be spread?

Why are we so afraid of discussing things?
The developer stance on the XP System has been the same since I joined in 2013, which is more or less that things will not be any more transparent than they already are.  Reading through this thread and the one that spawned it shows answers being given, they're just vague answers, and I'd wager that is what is frustrating the players who are asking.

Asking for clarification is usually fine, repeatedly asking for clarification on something that's been stated will receive no further transparency can be annoying. 

The takeaway from both of these threads is that nothing has changed with the XP system since the time that EO specified in the other thread and that XP intake works on some system of averaging.  The threads aren't being locked because the developers want to shut down discussion on the merits of whether the system is fair/balanced/fun or not, they're being locked because they keep devolving into nothing but asking for answers that aren't going to be given and commentary on how developers post the info they are willing to give.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 03:56:24 PM by FinalHeaven »



Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2021, 04:12:00 PM »
The confusion here is that answers were given which directly contradict what the developers already choose to share on the XP system.

Why is it annoying to ask for clarification? Two directly contradictory answers have been given. If the stated rules are wrong shouldn't they be corrected so misinformation doesn't continue to be spread?

Why are we so afraid of discussing things?
The developer stance on the XP System has been the same since I joined in 2013, which is more or less that things will not be any more transparent than they already are.  Reading through this thread and the one that spawned it shows answers being given, they're just vague answers, and I'd wager that is what is frustrating the players who are asking.

Asking for clarification is usually fine, repeatedly asking for clarification on something that's been stated will receive no further transparency can be annoying. 

The takeaway from both of these threads is that nothing has changed with the XP system since the time that EO specified in the other thread and that XP intake works on some system of averaging.  The threads aren't being locked because the developers want to shut down discussion on the merits of whether the system is fair/balanced/fun or not, they're being locked because they keep devolving into nothing but asking for answers that aren't going to be given and commentary on how developers post the info they are willing to give.

One last thing before shutting down my participation:

No, this conclusion is not clear. One answer is that the XP of other players are not important, the other answer is that it is.

Also, I'd prefer that the information was clear: "We will not disclose anything else and we do not want you to know anything" and the information made public here were erased, because having two conflictant sources of information is frustrating.

And last: My original thread was that the XP penalty seems off, since it makes almost impossible to get off it. The fact that one cannot reasonably get off the penalty make some players go for the assumption that blind drive is normal, what I believe is strange.

In more than on thread I saw the development team saying that the suggestions were heard, but would not be accepted. That's ok and I'd prefer going with rather than being silenced.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Confusion over XP system
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2021, 04:48:48 PM »
It was questionable to allow a new thread to be created when a similar topic had just been locked, but I thought the question presented was well thought-out and I understood where the confusion was coming from. The red text highlighted in the original post does not contradict what EO stated about the XP system, though I can see how it might lead people to interpret it that way. So, I've attempted to clarify what the red text intended to convey.

The xp system works like this (from what I understand from reading the posts).

Player 1 and player 2 both create new PCs on day 1, both play this PC exclusively and often until day 30, but each PC is of course different. Player 1's PC is a blood seeking barbarian that only wants to smash things, they gain most of their xp through combat. Player 2's PC is a scholar that only goes into dangerous situations to learn about the area, and as such spends more time rping but still goes to dungeon from time to time. Both these characters starting at the same time, should still gain the same amount of xp over the 30 days, because as Player 1 is constantly grinding dungeons, eventually they enter exp penalties on combat xp (and it is combat xp only from my understanding), and while player 2 is not gaining as much combat xp, they never reach these exp penalties because they do not constantly dungeon. Thus despite player 1 being in blind drive, and player 2 being in possible bonus xp, both characters should be at (or close to) the same level after 30 days.

It is irrelevant to either player if the other player stops playing because as stated above, the XP you gain is not based on another player's progression. So if either player stops playing that character is has no effect on the other player. The comparison between the two becomes voided at that time, the system just works in a way to prevent two people that play equal amounts of time that also started at the same time to not fall behind another character based on the rp style of that character, ie. Dungeon grinders, nor rp focused PCs gain xp faster than the other. (As long as the rp focused PCs do actually dungeon).

This is correct, thanks Gibbs.



As was stated: XP is not based on others' progression. If this unambiguous answer can't be accepted, there's nothing more I can do to help.

I tried to answer this question in earnest, and a key portion of my answer was ignored multiple times. In response, I received hostile and degrading comments. We're a community. We should all be here for each other. I want to be available when players have questions or concerns, but if you're a person who responds in this manner, what is my motivation supposed to be next time you ask a question? It's not helpful to you or to others if I decide it's not worth the effort of navigating a minefield to try and respond.

Don't make another thread on this.