Author Topic: Leatherworking  (Read 12424 times)

Helaman

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2007, 07:47:28 AM »
Now THATS a good idea... 1 part boiled leather, 5 parts soft leather (mink) = something nice... another use for mink fur!

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2008, 06:01:15 PM »
*Performs thread necromancy!*

Well, I spent the last couple of days doing some leather working. So far it seems a bit pointless. None of the stuff you make is worth any money, not even DC34 studded leathers, which are the best you can make as far as I know. Also, as Catacomb pointed out earlier, stores sell better leather armors.

A few remarks:

First of all; you need hides. This is fine for the low DC hides like wolf fur and animal skin, but when you want to go for the better stuff you need dire animals. Which means you're dependent on spawns. People regularly kill off those animals when they encounter them. So unlike the other crafts, where your only competition for resources comes from other crafters, you face competition from *all* players who kill animals.

For example: To get the best hides you need ancient dire bears. They live only at one place, as far as I know, and it needs to be at a pretty high spawn to find them. And that place gets visited by others as well who are not after hides. Which means you need luck to get a handful of hides (getting three hides, that can give a total of 18 patches if you pass the DC25 curing and boiling, is the best I got so far)

That means that the best hides ae pretty rare. Should you get them, and prepare them they turn out to be useless, property-wise: When boiled, grizzly patches become hard boiled patches. When you boil ancient dire bear patches, they become sturdy boiled patches. When you make an armor out of these the DC is 5 higher than with hardboiled patches but the end result is the same. So the only use they have is increasing DC to gain more CXP.

Aditionnally, all the pointing and clicking you have to do is giving me RSI. Because it is also boring as hell your eyes glaze over and your mind goes on standby which often results in buying something with a full inventory, removing the item from the merchant inventory until next resest. Fix this please!
But about all the clicking: First you need to buy tannine for ever hide. Then stuff hides and tannine in the curing basin. Use the knife once, open the basin, click on all the patches and use the knife again. Then you need to get wax, which means strolling to the beekeeper. You'll need 40-60 pieces, which involves a lot of clicking again. Luckily you can boil a lot of the skins at once. Basically, a lot of the time spent on crafting goes into the logistics of transferring stuff from inventory to container and back. This is not just boring, it gets annoying after a while. And it can be easily fixed.

Some suggestions for streamlining:
- Make tannine and beewax available at larger quantities than 1. Sell them also in sets of 10 or 25 or something
- Allow for bulk curing: toss in a whole set of hides, along with the apporiate amount of tannine and do it all at once. You're already going to do plenty of pointing and clicking to make the armors.

Earlier in this thread there were already some good suggestions to make leatherworking into a more useful craft. im going to quote them again for emphasis:

Gonna start throwing out suggestions for other bonuses that leathers could provide.

Wolf leather
+1 discipline
- 2 Tumble

Wolf leather is less flexible than other types of leather, resulting worse restriction on movement, but better support against blows.

Small animal fur (make it into it's own type called "thin leather", and have the DC be the same as using normal leather)
- 1 AC
+3 tumble
- 2 Discipline

Because small animals typically have thinner skin, armor made from them is much more flexible. This can be a good thing for dodging blows, but it also provides little to no support when an actual blow is struck.

Snakeskin
+2 Influence
+2 Antagonize

Wearing snakeskin armor draws the eye.  A person trying to persuade or bluff can benefit from the attention their armor draws.  In the same way a person can use the extra attention their armor draws to make themselves look completely arrogant and threatening.

Winter Wolf
10 Cold DR
+ 1 discipline
- 2 tumble

Extremely warm, winter wolf fur is superior to other cold weather leathers in that it's not any more flamable than normal wolf leather.

Dire (insert type)
10 cold DR
+ 2 discipline
+ 2 antagonize
- 4 tumble

A person wearing Dire leather armor is obvious.  The leahter is thick and impressive helping against the cold, helping to absorb hits, and even helping the wearing frighten off enemies.  Just don't expect to do any rolling in such furs.

Ancient dire bear
15 Cold
+ 3 discipline
+ 3 antagonize
- 5 tumble

Ancient dire bear hide is everything that dire hide is, only to a greater extreme.
 
Here are some alternatives for dire and ancient dire bear hides

Dire (insert type)
10 cold resist
- 1 AC
3 slashing DR

Dire leather is bulky, making a wearer easy to hit. Even so bladed weapons have a terrible time dealing with the thick leather.

Ancient Dire Bear
10 cold resist
- 1 AC
3 slashing DR
3 bludgeoning DR

Ancient Dire Bear leather is bulky, making a wearer easy to hit. Even so, blunt weaponry typically bounces off the the leather, and blades have a hard time slicing through.  Only piercing weapons are truely effective.

Could also have dire/ancient dire hide increase the items weight maybe.

Any sort of leather that gave bonuses to Move silently and or Hide would be vastly appreciated by the leatherworkers of the server, seeings as when I'm asked for leather armor about 75% of the time the person who asks wants stealthy leathers.

Now this is fun. Plenty of diversity and stuff that can be actually useful to. And its not already for sale in shops.


Would like to see some of the more.. exotic hides added but probably not on regular drop so they can be used as rare quest items.

Lycanthrope hides
Zombie Skin
Hides from the various player Races (obviously for those evil types... human hide padded armor?)

And like I said, not on regular drop. Would make great quest items or RP rewards.

Now this would be fun. Make 'Skinning' a third thing you can do with a corpse, other than mutilating and burning. This gives an item called <race> skin. The item can then be further processed with leatherworking. It might be impractical from a developers point of view but Hell it would rock!  :twisted:

Also, it already got suggested earlier in a different thread: It would be great to be able to craft other things than armors. I'd love to be able to make boots, gloves, belts and cloaks as well. Masks too.

To summarize:
In order to make leatherworking into a fun and useful skill it needs to be streamlined and expanded with more useful items that can be made.


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ethinos

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2008, 06:22:02 PM »
*Performs thread necromancy!*

Well, I spent the last couple of days doing some leather working. So far it seems a bit pointless. None of the stuff you make is worth any money, not even DC34 studded leathers, which are the best you can make as far as I know. Also, as Catacomb pointed out earlier, stores sell better leather armors.

Its the same as smithing. You have to sell the armor to PC's to make any real profit. While stores sell leather armor with +1 across the board, they do not have any of the extra properties the various leathers can confer.

Quote
A few remarks:

First of all; you need hides. This is fine for the low DC hides like wolf fur and animal skin, but when you want to go for the better stuff you need dire animals. Which means you're dependent on spawns. People regularly kill off those animals when they encounter them. So unlike the other crafts, where your only competition for resources comes from other crafters, you face competition from *all* players who kill animals.

For example: To get the best hides you need ancient dire bears. They live only at one place, as far as I know, and it needs to be at a pretty high spawn to find them. And that place gets visited by others as well who are not after hides. Which means you need luck to get a handful of hides (getting three hides, that can give a total of 18 patches if you pass the DC25 curing and boiling, is the best I got so far)

That means that the best hides ae pretty rare. Should you get them, and prepare them they turn out to be useless, property-wise: When boiled, grizzly patches become hard boiled patches. When you boil ancient dire bear patches, they become sturdy boiled patches. When you make an armor out of these the DC is 5 higher than with hardboiled patches but the end result is the same. So the only use they have is increasing DC to gain more CXP.

The silver mines have loads of dire animals, sometimes ancient dire bears too. And this doesn't include the spots in the mountains where bears spawn. Also, I don't see why the spawn thing is relevant. You need animals, and they vary on spawn. If you need skins and are worried they'll get disregarded due to overzealous hunters, put up a notice to purchase them.

Also, I find it odd that sturdy boiled leather patches do the same as hard boiled. Maybe its an oversight. It's basically the steel equivalent in leather working. *shrugs*

Quote
Aditionnally, all the pointing and clicking you have to do is giving me RSI. Because it is also boring as hell your eyes glaze over and your mind goes on standby which often results in buying something with a full inventory, removing the item from the merchant inventory until next resest. Fix this please!
But about all the clicking: First you need to buy tannine for ever hide. Then stuff hides and tannine in the curing basin. Use the knife once, open the basin, click on all the patches and use the knife again. Then you need to get wax, which means strolling to the beekeeper. You'll need 40-60 pieces, which involves a lot of clicking again. Luckily you can boil a lot of the skins at once. Basically, a lot of the time spent on crafting goes into the logistics of transferring stuff from inventory to container and back. This is not just boring, it gets annoying after a while. And it can be easily fixed.

Some suggestions for streamlining:
- Make tannine and beewax available at larger quantities than 1. Sell them also in sets of 10 or 25 or something
- Allow for bulk curing: toss in a whole set of hides, along with the apporiate amount of tannine and do it all at once. You're already going to do plenty of pointing and clicking to make the armors.

I'll admit, leatherworking is the most aggravating of the 3 crafts. A 'jar of honey' or maybe a 'barrel of tannin' might be nice alternatives.

Quote
Earlier in this thread there were already some good suggestions to make leatherworking into a more useful craft. im going to quote them again for emphasis:

Quote
Now this is fun. Plenty of diversity and stuff that can be actually useful to. And its not already for sale in shops.

Note that all those leathers would also be available to smiths making metal armor. Personally, I think we could use a few more leathers that have bonuses, but some of the recommendations are a bit... extreme or illogical.


Quote
Now this would be fun. Make 'Skinning' a third thing you can do with a corpse, other than mutilating and burning. This gives an item called <race> skin. The item can then be further processed with leatherworking. It might be impractical from a developers point of view but Hell it would rock!  :twisted:

Also, it already got suggested earlier in a different thread: It would be great to be able to craft other things than armors. I'd love to be able to make boots, gloves, belts and cloaks as well. Masks too.

To summarize:
In order to make leatherworking into a fun and useful skill it needs to be streamlined and expanded with more useful items that can be made.

It would be nice to have the extra items that we can make, gauntlets, helms, boots, etc. However, I'd like to leave the whole skinning of strange creatures alone. If you want to make something truly unique, ask a DM to make a quest of it. We already have zombie hide armor, cloaks and fur armor made of werewolves, etc. Its nice if the truly strange things are left as options in the loot tables or for DM quests.
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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2008, 10:30:29 PM »
  I haven't gotten far enough along in leatherworking to try any of the dires for armour, but aren't they supposed to give the benefits based on the unboiled patches?  It seems like boiled bear hide would be the same as boiled dire bear hide, would be the same as... Et cetera.

  Then again, all my RL experience is with metal, not leather, so I'm just guessing there.

ethinos

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2008, 10:35:40 PM »
Boiling removes all the bonuses the leather would've provided. The boiled leather provides the primary ingredient needed for armor. The unboiled patches, the secondary ingredients, still provide the bonuses as normal.

Dire and other things make hard boiled patches which provide better protection, AC-wise.
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flamedance58

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2008, 10:43:09 PM »
Well I'm gonna burn some mana towards the necromantic ritual to keep this thread up.

I am starting out as a newbie.
Alot of people know that.
And the first thing I want to do is get something to sink my teeth into.
Leatherworking.

All I needed to do was have Briareos who's hunter/explorer go out, hunt some deers, wolves, badgers, minks.
Go back and blah blah blah....

But after going through this post and talking to several people about leatherworking, and from my own experiences...Leather is turning more and more into a fluff craft.
By no means am I saying that the DM made it on purpose...but without anything worth making at even the later levels there isn't much of a drive in me left to do anything more than the now strategy of Kill-Skin-Cure-Sell.

*goes off with a hatch and hunts some Elms*

ethinos

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2008, 11:45:17 PM »
The thing is, ultimately, without enchanting, leather can only do so much. Metal will always protect better. :?
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Mcskinns

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2008, 03:06:46 AM »
The thing is, ultimately, without enchanting, leather can only do so much. Metal will always protect better. :?

As far as the various trade crafts go, I definitely agree Leatherworking needs the most attention, followed by Woodworking...

What might improve the attractiveness of the trade would be to add something minor to the end result...

With Metalsmithing you recieve the benefits of the leathers used as lining and bindings for the various parts.  Items crafted fully from leather offer new opportunites for the material to shine, as the covering of bulky heavy metal hides some of the leathers natural appeal.

With this in mind, I think it might be nice to give leather armors a minor special trait when formed from various furs.  Though this could interfere with the plans for Enchanting down the line, its worth mention.

I would also love to see new templates for the non-smithing crafts.  But first, lets offer up some ideas for what could be added to the leather properties based on leathers used. 

Plain Leather - no modifiers as this is the staple mundane item

Bear Fur/Leather -
A bear's fur consists of two types of hair - the underfur and the outer guard hairs.  The underfur is soft and dense and serves primarily as an insulator.  The outer guard hairs are much thicker, longer and coarser.  While they also insulate, they serve to protect the body from foreign objects such as dirt, debris and insects.  They also repel water - when a bear emerges from a lake or creek, it will shake just like a dog, dispelling the water from its coat and leaving it practically dry.
From this I could see having items made from Thick Leather Patches to possess any of the following properties....  cold resist 5/-, +1 Fort Save, +1 AC vs Slashing....   offset this with added weight due to the double layer of fur or an increase in Arcane Spell Failure due to thickness.


Crag Cat Fur/Leather -  Cat fur varies widely, but Crag Fur is likely very warm to endure the higher elevations.  As such, I'd propose bumping up the Cold Resistance to 10/- but adding a 25% Vulnerability to Electricity to offset the static nature of the fur.

Snakeskin - no added warmth from these skins, but perhaps a Vulnerability to Cold as well as a -5 Arcane Spell Failure to reflect the flexibility and thinness of the material?

I know there are other furs, maybe some ideas for those, or better ideas for these could provoke something among the Dev's to get things rolling in the Leatherworking Department. 

There would need to be different properties as well for items such as belts, cloaks, and gloves.  A lot of potential for low impacting bonuses to the various furs used, hopefully without ruining the Enchanting to come down the line.



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Dreaderick

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2008, 03:30:06 AM »

Quote
A few remarks:

First of all; you need hides. This is fine for the low DC hides like wolf fur and animal skin, but when you want to go for the better stuff you need dire animals. Which means you're dependent on spawns. People regularly kill off those animals when they encounter them. So unlike the other crafts, where your only competition for resources comes from other crafters, you face competition from *all* players who kill animals.

For example: To get the best hides you need ancient dire bears. They live only at one place, as far as I know, and it needs to be at a pretty high spawn to find them. And that place gets visited by others as well who are not after hides. Which means you need luck to get a handful of hides (getting three hides, that can give a total of 18 patches if you pass the DC25 curing and boiling, is the best I got so far)

That means that the best hides ae pretty rare. Should you get them, and prepare them they turn out to be useless, property-wise: When boiled, grizzly patches become hard boiled patches. When you boil ancient dire bear patches, they become sturdy boiled patches. When you make an armor out of these the DC is 5 higher than with hardboiled patches but the end result is the same. So the only use they have is increasing DC to gain more CXP.

The silver mines have loads of dire animals, sometimes ancient dire bears too. And this doesn't include the spots in the mountains where bears spawn. Also, I don't see why the spawn thing is relevant. You need animals, and they vary on spawn. If you need skins and are worried they'll get disregarded due to overzealous hunters, put up a notice to purchase them.

Also, I find it odd that sturdy boiled leather patches do the same as hard boiled. Maybe its an oversight. It's basically the steel equivalent in leather working. *shrugs*

The spawn thing is relevant because it influences availability. In other crafts, resources are either available or they aren't. And those are only targeted by people interested in the craft.


Quote
Quote
It would be nice to have the extra items that we can make, gauntlets, helms, boots, etc. However, I'd like to leave the whole skinning of strange creatures alone. If you want to make something truly unique, ask a DM to make a quest of it. We already have zombie hide armor, cloaks and fur armor made of werewolves, etc. Its nice if the truly strange things are left as options in the loot tables or for DM quests.

The more strange skins would become useful once enchanting gets implemented. And before that it is just plain fun to get the occasional weird hide, even without any special stats to it.


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flamedance58

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2008, 03:48:43 AM »
I'll honestly say I have no idea how the enchanting system is going to work, but it seems alot of people are saying it's going to be like a second coming of christ.
I don't see how having to be able to cast magic or have some magical power is going to help leatherworkers who don't use magic, or are people who come from Vallkil or wherever...

The point I think was that the leathers we can MAKE, not from a combination of two crafts, but from ONE craft are no where near as useful or plausible to use less you don't have a choice.

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2008, 05:47:15 PM »
This is mostly feedback on my experience with leathers:

Given the selection of varying pelts we have, I would like for some variety. Basically, all pelts can be divided into three color catagories:

  • White: Cold Resist and fire vulnerability
  • Gray: Improved saving throws against negative energy
  • Brown: Zilch

  • White: Crag cats, winter wolves, cave wolves, white stags
  • Gray: Worgs
  • Brown: Deer, boar, ox, bears, wolves

Brown gives no added effects, white always gives cold resist and fire vulnerability and gray negative energy protection. I would like a little variation at least in the white leathers section. For example the white stag hides. White stag horns give +1 vs Undead, yet the pelts only give cold resistence like any other crag cat/winter wolf/elder wolf. Can't at least the white stag pelt give +1 AC against undead? I mean, if the horns give +1 AB, the pelt should reflect it a bit. I'd love if winter wolves or dire crag cat gave better cold resist. Okay, I'll settle on winter wolves.

———

It would be nice to have Dire leathers combinations—Primary ingredient boiled hard leather (originally a dire wolf leather before boiling) , secondary ingredient dire crag cat leather—give better things as opposed to the Hard leather/soft leather combination: Hard boiled leather + regular crag cat in this example. The hard leather and regular crag cat gives us cold resist 5/- and 25% fire damage vulnerability.

I'd like if hard boiled and dire combinations gave something slightly better like 10/- and 50% fire damage vulnerability to balance the 10 damage resistence. DC could even go higher to make creating such leathers available to those with really high levels in crafting. In the case of worg, raise it to +3 or +4 improved saving throws against negative energy. I know the 10 cold resist is looked upon as too good, but it's a real shame that dire crag cats pelts give the same stats as regular crag cats. Dire versions are supposed to stronger than the regular ones.

———

Using thick fur leather patches should work differently than crag cat/winter wolf/elder wolf. It has the same properties. Since hard boiled armors are giving us +1 AC vs Slashing and Blungeon, how about +1 vs piercing?

And snakeskin in leathers should give something or be useable at least. You currently can't use them for light armors, but can for heavy armors. Even if it's just a color change of the armor.


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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2008, 03:17:11 AM »
Being an almost full time leatherworker myself, I can only agree with everything that's been said.

You can't imagine how excited I was to find a winter wolf, only to find out that I shouldn't have bothered!
I just found out about the ancient dire bears. I mean... damn man! And thank god that I didn't find any white stags

Give us a hand! Right now I am a level 7 leatherworker and apparently, as I can make hard worg armor, I've reached the pinnacle of my craft?

Gonna move into smithing, +1 armor / +2 negative saves sure as hell doesn't beat +1 vs shapeshifters +1d6 slashing damage.
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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2008, 03:27:03 AM »
I carried around the first ancient dire bear hide (one Sadek gave me) for FOREVER, waiting to be able to use it.

I feel your pain. ;)

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2008, 12:47:22 PM »
Another thing that I've noticed is that leathers only get +1 AC versus slashing and piercing, as opposed to straight +1 AC. There's also no weight reduction like with the smithing system, unless in both cases I'm missing out on a certain receipe to do this.


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Rex

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2008, 01:33:35 PM »
I still want gloves, boots, and belts.

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2008, 01:39:39 PM »
I still want gloves, boots, and belts.

~Rex


agreed

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2008, 04:02:13 PM »
Ditto

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2008, 08:43:32 PM »
I was really dissappointed with the productions of leatherworking on my leahter-bearing character, since it was more effective to just buy +1 bracers and not have to deal with the clunky armor that adds fire vulnerability while he already has heels of andral.

Definetely need the suggestions Rex added, and perhaps some weight reduction and actual +1 AC opposed to single types like Delphi pointed out.

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2008, 11:14:26 PM »
A template to allow the making of clothes out of various hides would be nice as well.  With all the casters on the server, leatherworkers would get more work making high quality robes and outfits then they ever will making leather armour.

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2008, 01:49:22 AM »
Leather working got the most shafting out of any of the crafting detail, but I think I will expand on that in another thread.  Granted though bear in mind I am used to a Far more detailed Crafting system that really pulled out all the stops.

It just seems though, that it would be better if it would "improve" on the same scale the metalic stuff does, Much less weight, MS, H bonuses and such.  Not to mention, Gloves, Boots, Cloaks (Though Cloaks and robes seem more Tailorish then Leather working to me) etc etc etc .........

Still, work in progress I guess.

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2008, 04:28:17 AM »
Just wait a minute!

You mean to tell me now that I've finally found a white stag that it's hide is the same as a craig cat?!?

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2008, 05:25:34 AM »
You can do different stuff with it's antlers though I think.

Might just be another Hard Tease though.  Like Snake Skin.  :D

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2008, 07:38:45 AM »
BOOOOOO

I say.

I know about the antlers. But *see bowmaking thread* I'm moving into smithing until ancient dire bears and white stag skins do something!

BOOO!

Silver gilded weapons I say

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Helaman

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2008, 07:55:33 AM »
Does that mean I've lost a customer?

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2008, 04:47:05 PM »
Right now, I don't want more features such as boots and belts and gloves. Too many features and you'll lose track of what needs modifying in the current system. Current system has one of the largest selections of patches I've ever seen, but all these don't really add for much variety. I mean, crag cat, mink, musk ox, winter wolf, white stag, cave wolves and the dire crag cat all give the same cold resistence. Worg is the only type of leather that gives negative energy protection. And that's basically it on special properties such as cold and negative energy. Base patches are made from deer, wolf, scravyt, otter, badger, meaning regular leathers. The stronger patches come from bears—hard boiled leathers—, which give only +1 AC to blungeon and slashing. And if you manage to cuir an ancient dire bear, you get sturdy leather patches, but these have the same properties as the hard leather ones. If the sturdy ones gave +1 AC to all, it would seriously be a plus since getting them—aka finding an ancient dire and killing it—, tanning then and boiling them isn't easy.

I really think some of the white patches category should give something better than 5/- cold resistence. I insist white stag can give +1 AC vs undead, and dire's better saves. It's not like white stag are so common to obtain, and getting ancient dire bear and dire crag cat isn't easy either.

What I would like to see is some better cold resist on the leathers. I don't know why a metal armor has the same cold resistence as a leather armor. Leathers should be warmer than metals. Especialy if we consider the think fur patches that can be crafted. It could be as McSkinns said, higher cold resist and electrical vulnerabilty. If higher cold resist isn't possible due to game balance, how about something like improved saving throws versus cold, like the mountaineer's masks?


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