Author Topic: Leatherworking  (Read 12032 times)

Catacomb

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Leatherworking
« on: March 27, 2007, 06:28:15 PM »
In my own experience, Leatherworking is kinda low on options at the moment. (padded, leather, and studded leather armor is all there is to make.) Is it possible that we could see cloak, whip, boot, and glove templates anytime soon?





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Helaman

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2007, 06:47:33 PM »
The Bowyer is in a similar position - while his items are intrinsically more valuable, the elves make and sell better...

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2007, 06:48:36 PM »
We discussed this at our last development meeting and we might implement arrow making in the whole bowyering trade.

Also, keep in mind that weapons and bows alike will really shine when enchanting is in and the base stats you see are improved with enchantments.

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 07:14:12 PM »
We discussed this at our last development meeting and we might implement arrow making in the whole bowyering trade.

Also, keep in mind that weapons and bows alike will really shine when enchanting is in and the base stats you see are improved with enchantments.

huh freaking za!! bout time with arrow making being put it :)

anyhow also what i think might be needed is some basic lvl 1 recipes for basic stuff etc

Helaman

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 09:43:16 PM »
Also, keep in mind that weapons and bows alike will really shine when enchanting is in and the base stats you see are improved with enchantments.

Hmmm - this is a low magic server, right? Enchanting stuff is a) gonna raise the level of magic that everyone has a magic weapon, and b) Benefit the Mages (again - I say again, because your average fighter needs a mage buffs to get his weapon to be able to fight all those DR beasties out there where as mages - assuming they aren't burnt at the stake - can blow them away with a will and rely on stoneskin etc to keep them safe) because we have to go cap in hand to them for it and even if they spent a perm Con point lost etc per item, they will still make insane money because they can charge what they will.

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Ravenous

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2007, 05:25:02 AM »
Question... Who would enchant but someone able to use magic? Noone..
Come on, play your chars and stop worrying about everyone else. Makes a person alot happier :D

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Helaman

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2007, 06:22:59 AM »
Fair enough...

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Catacomb

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 04:59:38 PM »
I just completed a set of wolf leather padded armor, and... uh.... it isn't any different than normal leather padded armor.

Is that right, or a bug?

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Ryoga

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2007, 02:42:50 AM »
hello people just one question how many levels each crafting have?

because i have boiled lots of leather and cure a lot of skins and i dont get any crafting experience it just said hide curing level 1 cxp 0, contrary on leather working i get xp everytime i make leather armor.

So hide curing just have 1 lvl or there is a bug?


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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2007, 02:58:46 AM »
hello people just one question how many levels each crafting have?

because i have boiled lots of leather and cure a lot of skins and i dont get any crafting experience it just said hide curing level 1 cxp 0, contrary on leather working i get xp everytime i make leather armor.

So hide curing just have 1 lvl or there is a bug?



You won't get any CXP for curing most hides... anything DC 15 or above will give a bit of CXP though.  So try working in those when you can and eventually you'll get to the next level.


Quote from: Catacomb
I just completed a set of wolf leather padded armor, and... uh.... it isn't any different than normal leather padded armor.

I believe thats normal, its considered a base leather for items so it holds no special properties.  Try working with boiled leather and thick fur patches or boiled and crag fur for some variances.  Experiment with new furs when you get a chance, and don't be too surprised if the DC's go up for the more rare types.  Some of them yeild nice bonuses, others not so grand.



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Catacomb

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2007, 05:55:10 PM »
Quote from: Catacomb
I just completed a set of wolf leather padded armor, and... uh.... it isn't any different than normal leather padded armor.

I believe thats normal, its considered a base leather for items so it holds no special properties.  Try working with boiled leather and thick fur patches or boiled and crag fur for some variances.  Experiment with new furs when you get a chance, and don't be too surprised if the DC's go up for the more rare types.  Some of them yeild nice bonuses, others not so grand.

I've experimented with a couple different types of leathers.  I wanted to point out wolf leather because it increases the DC by 5 over using normal leather... yet yields no benefit. In addition it is one of the most valuable types of leathers that I've found. (9 fang per square compared to 3 for worg, and five for thick/crag cat leather.)

Why is wolf hide so valuable and so hard to work if it doesn't net any benefit to leatherworkers? It should either be worthless because of it's difficulty to work.... or it should net the creator something for being harder to use. (+1 discipline, -1 tumble maybe?)

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Lyrithean

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2007, 12:54:49 PM »
Would like to see some of the more.. exotic hides added but probably not on regular drop so they can be used as rare quest items.

Lycanthrope hides
Zombie Skin
Hides from the various player Races (obviously for those evil types... human hide padded armor?)

And like I said, not on regular drop. Would make great quest items or RP rewards.

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2007, 03:18:11 PM »

Hides from the various player Races (obviously for those evil types... human hide padded armor?)

And like I said, not on regular drop. Would make great quest items or RP rewards.

I like this idea a lot.  My monk would love to make some human skin items, but I also think we need more options.  How about gloves, boots, cloaks and masks (I'm all about the masks here, Leatherface indeed)?
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Ryoga

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2007, 01:56:37 PM »
Anyone knows what kind of leather patch have a dc of 15 when boiled?

because i have boiled lots of hides and none of them gives me cxp and is a little bit stressing besides, there si a bug with teh boiling thing sometimes when you have the leather patch and wax it says you dont have the proper items and nothing happens any suggestions are welcome
 :)

Catacomb

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2007, 03:51:20 PM »
First off.... dire hides have DC 20 when boiled.


Warning: This is gonna be a rant.  Some stuff in it is the serious honest truth, but a lot of it is going to be wild exagerations. 

Now, here's my radical suggestion.  The thick fur armor/clothing/cloak available in stores need to be nerfed, or the player-made leathers need to be improved.  There's not a single person on the server who would buy thick fur leathers from a player ever.   

"Hm.... lets see.  I can go to the store and buy thick fur armor (hide armor with 15 cold DR, +1 saving throw vs. cold, and 25% fire vulnerability)  ..... or I can buy this player made thick fur armor (hide armor with 10 cold Dr and 25% fire vulnerability)"

My suggestion for the store bought cold gear?  Well there's many options. Give thick fur armor/clothing a dex penalty for being big and bulky... Decrease their Cold DR.... increase their fire vul..... heck, give them a negative AC modifier if you must! Would see people searching for leatherworkers then, and it'd reduce the amounts of people running about indoors with those massive cold weather suits on, because, as anyone who has ever been in big heavy cold weather gear knows, You really don't want to wear that crap unless you're someplace very cold.  ;)

Crag cat fur is currently worthless, as it's designed for cold weather, yet makes the person actually end up taking more damage in cold situations than they would if they just had a cloak.  I really like the concept of cold resistance and vulnerability... but the cold resistance would need to be much higher to make it worthwhile. (15 or maybe even 20 combined with the 25% vul.)


I really hope that leatherworking could become a profitable career for players the way smithing is... but without some major changes I just don't see it happening.

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Helaman

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2007, 11:10:49 PM »
First off.... dire hides have DC 20 when boiled.


Warning: This is gonna be a rant.  Some stuff in it is the serious honest truth, but a lot of it is going to be wild exagerations. 

Now, here's my radical suggestion.  The thick fur armor/clothing/cloak available in stores need to be nerfed, or the player-made leathers need to be improved.  There's not a single person on the server who would buy thick fur leathers from a player ever.   

"Hm.... lets see.  I can go to the store and buy thick fur armor (hide armor with 15 cold DR, +1 saving throw vs. cold, and 25% fire vulnerability)  ..... or I can buy this player made thick fur armor (hide armor with 10 cold Dr and 25% fire vulnerability)"

My suggestion for the store bought cold gear?  Well there's many options. Give thick fur armor/clothing a dex penalty for being big and bulky... Decrease their Cold DR.... increase their fire vul..... heck, give them a negative AC modifier if you must! Would see people searching for leatherworkers then, and it'd reduce the amounts of people running about indoors with those massive cold weather suits on, because, as anyone who has ever been in big heavy cold weather gear knows, You really don't want to wear that crap unless you're someplace very cold.  ;)

Crag cat fur is currently worthless, as it's designed for cold weather, yet makes the person actually end up taking more damage in cold situations than they would if they just had a cloak.  I really like the concept of cold resistance and vulnerability... but the cold resistance would need to be much higher to make it worthwhile. (15 or maybe even 20 combined with the 25% vul.)


I really hope that leatherworking could become a profitable career for players the way smithing is... but without some major changes I just don't see it happening.

Interesting

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2007, 01:48:41 AM »
First off.... dire hides have DC 20 when boiled.

I really hope that leatherworking could become a profitable career for players the way smithing is... but without some major changes I just don't see it happening.

Two things.

1) DC 20 for boiling leathers. Get over it. Smelting Bronze has a DC of 25 after you have smelted the copper and tin sperately at DC 15. Iron has a DC of 25 and Steel a DC of 30. BTW Steel requires coal and even Dorin will not go to get that alone. Minimum two and better with four players just to get the coal to make steel.

Steel Full Plate with Worg hide has a DC of 50! No typo. 50! A steel Chain Shirt with Worg has a DC of 35. Dorin with 21 ranks (yes that is not a typo) in smithing (not including stat bonuses which he has no dex bonus so only str is added) is just now becoming profitable with smithing. I have been working IC for over a month throwing money left right and center into it, not including many long hours mining and standing at the smelter or forge alone. I would hazard Dorin has spent upwards of 25K to 30K thrown into it in templates. Only so that I can get back a meazly 1/8th (or less) of what I purchased the template for. Does this help to explain why Full Plate and Steel is so expensive? I think so.

So please I appreciate your rant, but given the numbers I'm seeing in smithing a 20 is not something I find incredibly time intesive to achieve since with stat bonuses and a little luck one can achive it from the start. Especially if one can buff them selves like I know Marin can.

2) I concur with the think fur leathers point, and for that matter Craig Cats leather, they don't work. There is no point to use them in steel or leather apparently. A cloak is a better investment. These could use an adjustment to help increase the player driven economy of character made goods. Either increase the DR or remove the vulnerability. Right now I don't know who or why someone would buy them.

Oh...and Helaman. Nice sarcasm you apprentice smith.  :lol:

Thanks DW!

Helaman

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2007, 02:07:42 AM »
Wasnt sarcasm though *shrugs* Oh well.

I more or less was interested in the TN and more importantly that PLAYER generated leathers were inferior to those available from NPCs. Steel and Iron are superior to shop purchased weapons but I've never met a leatherworker who can improve upon the current products. Admittedly it takes a LONG time to get to any level of smithing/smelting (level 6 seems to be the hump - I'm still struggling to get there) maybe there is something out there for leather workers at higher levels.

As for mining? I got to do a massive leather run (or get Miranda to sell me some) then do a big tin run and then a massive Copper run because Copper isnt getting me anywhere fast. I crafted 9 copper chain shirts from 13 and barely went up in CXP.

Once I hit level 5 in Smith and 6 in Smelt I'll do a Iron and Coal run with you.


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Catacomb

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2007, 05:28:03 PM »
Players can make "better" leathers. 

If I combined winter wolf/thick fur with hard boiled hide, I could produce studded leather with:
10 Cold DR
25% Fire Vulnerability
+1 AC VS. Slashing
+1 AC VS. Bludgeoning

However.... from just about any vendor, you can already buy Studded leathers with:
15 Cold DR
25% Fire Vulnerability

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Catacomb

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2007, 05:32:49 PM »
1) DC 20 for boiling leathers. Get over it. Smelting Bronze has a DC of 25 after you have smelted the copper and tin sperately at DC 15. Iron has a DC of 25 and Steel a DC of 30. BTW Steel requires coal and even Dorin will not go to get that alone. Minimum two and better with four players just to get the coal to make steel.

Wasn't complaining about boiling dire hide, was just pointing out what hides can get a boiler xp for Ryoga.  :P

I actually was surprised at the lack of "difficult" leathers to work. It almost seems like the system was designed so that smith's could make their own leather, which doesn't make much sense to me, as I always imagines smith's commisioning a Leatherworker for leather.  :|


Also.... padded leather made with razorback leather and normal boiled hide is already DC 30... so leather working DC's get up there too. ;)


Final Edit:
Quote from: jrgood1
Especially if one can buff them selves like I know Marin can.

For the record, Marin cannot buff herself as she's a conjurer, and all the stat buff spells are transmutation.  :P
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 05:39:01 PM by Catacomb »

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eyeofpestilence

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2007, 06:08:09 PM »
I stand corrected. :)

My knowledge of leather working consists of Tanning.  :lol:  Just enough to provide for armor. But I now have a source or two. :)

Thanks DW!

Catacomb

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2007, 08:35:10 PM »
Alright, after a bit more leatherworking experience I've come to a conclusion.

Currently the base leather DC's go...
Padded 15
Leather 17
Studded 20


This is really bass ackwards since leather and padded are the more valuable leather based armors.  My suggestion is make the DC's go....

Studded 15
Leather  18
Padded  20

or even...

Studded 15
Leather  20
Padded  25


Explain it as being more difficult for a leatherworker to achieve sufficient protection while keeping the armor nice and thin and lightweight, because, in the end, Leather and Padded armors are the effective counter-part to the smith's Half-plate and Full-plate.

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Catacomb

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2007, 05:13:44 AM »
Gonna start throwing out suggestions for other bonuses that leathers could provide.

Wolf leather
+1 discipline
- 2 Tumble

Wolf leather is less flexible than other types of leather, resulting worse restriction on movement, but better support against blows.



Small animal fur (make it into it's own type called "thin leather", and have the DC be the same as using normal leather)
- 1 AC
+3 tumble
- 2 Discipline

Because small animals typically have thinner skin, armor made from them is much more flexible. This can be a good thing for dodging blows, but it also provides little to no support when an actual blow is struck.



Snakeskin
+2 Influence
+2 Antagonize

Wearing snakeskin armor draws the eye.  A person trying to persuade or bluff can benefit from the attention their armor draws.  In the same way a person can use the extra attention their armor draws to make themselves look completely arrogant and threatening.



Winter Wolf
10 Cold DR
+ 1 discipline
- 2 tumble

Extremely warm, winter wolf fur is superior to other cold weather leathers in that it's not any more flamable than normal wolf leather.



Dire (insert type)
10 cold DR
+ 2 discipline
+ 2 antagonize
- 4 tumble

A person wearing Dire leather armor is obvious.  The leahter is thick and impressive helping against the cold, helping to absorb hits, and even helping the wearing frighten off enemies.  Just don't expect to do any rolling in such furs.



Ancient dire bear
15 Cold
+ 3 discipline
+ 3 antagonize
- 5 tumble

Ancient dire bear hide is everything that dire hide is, only to a greater extreme.
 


Here are some alternatives for dire and ancient dire bear hides

Dire (insert type)
10 cold resist
- 1 AC
3 slashing DR

Dire leather is bulky, making a wearer easy to hit. Even so bladed weapons have a terrible time dealing with the thick leather.


Ancient Dire Bear
10 cold resist
- 1 AC
3 slashing DR
3 bludgeoning DR

Ancient Dire Bear leather is bulky, making a wearer easy to hit. Even so, blunt weaponry typically bounces off the the leather, and blades have a hard time slicing through.  Only piercing weapons are truely effective.

Could also have dire/ancient dire hide increase the items weight maybe.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 05:17:35 AM by Catacomb »

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Helaman

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2007, 05:22:28 AM »
Why do leathers give Discipline bonuses? Just curious...

Incidently we need an exocist to drive the gremlins out of the leather shop... I worked 20 work hides and got 7 successes...

I just needed to roll a 7 or better on D20 for success... yet I failed 2/3rds of the time!

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Catacomb

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Re: Leatherworking
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2007, 05:49:56 AM »
Why do leathers give Discipline bonuses? Just curious...

Incidently we need an exocist to drive the gremlins out of the leather shop... I worked 20 work hides and got 7 successes...

I just needed to roll a 7 or better on D20 for success... yet I failed 2/3rds of the time!

My thoughts on it were more rigid leathers would give bonuses to discipline for the additional support, but negatives to tumble because of the decreased flexability.

Oo!

Any sort of leather that gave bonuses to Move silently and or Hide would be vastly appreciated by the leatherworkers of the server, seeings as when I'm asked for leather armor about 75% of the time the person who asks wants stealthy leathers.

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