Quality of Life updates for Les Tanneries/Francis Merlot

[AnOldFriend]

I've been trying to work on my leatherworking in Dementlieu and it strikes me as odd the inconsistencies with  Les Tanneries in comparison to nearly every crafting location in the server. 

1) The dialogue options are unclear,  you have to know to select  3. [Ask him about tanning]  but not  2. [Ask him about his workshop]  and then you receive the option to open up the shop. 

2) He yells at you for having a weapon out when it is a curing knife.  Which he likely had just sold you a few minutes ago. 

3) It is the only crafting location in the Quartier Merchand that closes over night,  which typically tips the scale into me just hopping over to  the Village of Barovia instead of staying where my character is based out of. 

These are of course all minor complaints,  but I'm sure anyone who does leatherworking in Dementlieu would be grateful for the changes.

Edit: I changed "shop" to "Crafting location"  in line 3, because there is the Bazaar which does close over night.

[zDark Shadowz]

3) It is the only shop in the Quartier Merchand that closes over night,  which typically tips the scale into me just hopping over to  the Village of Barovia instead of staying where my character is based out of. 

I'm fine with there at least being one store that lets their workers go home to their families at night. It isn't safe at night either, why would they put themselves at risk working overtime?

Anyone able to enter their store at night, past the brigands is either a brigand themself or more dangerous. I feel like it really hits home that this business actually cares about its staff with these slight nuisances that've been missed because its otherwise inconvenient for adventurers / Port nobles & residents that don't sleep at night.

A cleaner dialogue option to get right into work or to disregard curing knives would be nice though, agree there.

[AnOldFriend]

I'm fine with there at least being one store that lets their workers go home to their families at night. It isn't safe at night either, why would they put themselves at risk working overtime?

Anyone able to enter their store at night, past the brigands is either a brigand themself or more dangerous. I feel like it really hits home that this business actually cares about its staff with these slight nuisances that've been missed because its otherwise inconvenient for adventurers / Port nobles & residents that don't sleep at night.

I believe the NPC may have been  intentionally made  inconvenient to work with.   He is a task master and walks around with a whip in his hand shouting all of the time in all of the dialogue options.

If anything Working them through the night is the most in character option for Franz.

[Dardonas]

3) It is the only shop in the Quartier Merchand that closes over night,  which typically tips the scale into me just hopping over to  the Village of Barovia instead of staying where my character is based out of. 

I'm fine with there at least being one store that lets their workers go home to their families at night. It isn't safe at night either, why would they put themselves at risk working overtime?

Anyone able to enter their store at night, past the brigands is either a brigand themself or more dangerous. I feel like it really hits home that this business actually cares about its staff with these slight nuisances that've been missed because its otherwise inconvenient for adventurers / Port nobles & residents that don't sleep at night.

A cleaner dialogue option to get right into work or to disregard curing knives would be nice though, agree there.

Disagree.  Crafting is already a nuisance as is.  Please don't make the life of crafters harder than it has to be.  There should be some OOC consideration when it comes to this for quality of life.  Otherwise people will just do their crafting in Village of Barovia's tannery as the alternative and I don't think the team wants people lingering out in that area.

All in all, I support making the Port-a-Lucine tannery have a stationary tanner with convenient dialogue options and who won't freak out when you speak to him with a curing knife in hand.

[Wilkins1952]

I think personally I would like to see them close at night for thematic reasons... or at the very least lock the doors like the VOB so that there is some risk with breaking and entering If a Gendarme sees you doing such a thing. But I also agree that they should be present 24/7 for Crafters given the nature of hte game and the day night cycle. And the dialogue to get to the shop should be clearer at least. Perhaps something like *Show interest in tanning* *Ask what he has for sale.* Rather than the Ambiguity it has not which for new players can be a little confusing.

[herkles]

I think they should be open 24/7 with an NPC there to do the night shift.

[BraveSirRobin]

I feel like this has to be a design oversight. There shouldn't be a situation in which it is more convenient to break and enter into a Barovian tannery for overnight tanning, because the Dementlieuse tanner leaves the facility unlocked but goes home. It should be the other way around. I also can't see a reason as to why crafting halls and crafting stations in Barovia lock their doors (but can be picked open) but after breaking and entering into these places of business at night, or trespassing after dark, the craftsmen remain behind all night and still work with you.

Yet, in Dementlieu, where there is far less of a setting emphasis on the fact night is a bad thing, scary, or you need to lock your doors lest the Devil Strahd's fingermen get you, you cannot tan overnight.

Yeah, just like. Put a night contremaitre in there and a night shift of employees who couldn't be there during the day. Make them subhumans like Halflings, or Dwarves, or Caliban or something, and that's why they work night shifts for half-pay with a lesser contremaitre overseeing them.

[AnOldFriend]

crafting halls and crafting stations in Barovia lock their doors (but can be picked open)

Honestly I went nearly my entire time here just assuming they were plot locked. Only learned about a month ago you can pick them and it still feels like a gray area to me in terms of ignoring NPCs.   I always just adjusted my schedule to ensure I was there before 6.   

I would be more okay with the Tannery  adopting that model, where the Door Lock at 6pm but the NPCs remain, than the current one.  In the current state it is only useful at night if you for some reason have a dire need to purchase Merchant Gloves or Lesser magical bags from the  Shop Merchant. 

  (Because there are work arounds which make sense in character like sending someone ahead to open the door for you when you knock. Or like I said ensuring you keep to a schedule.)   

[foxtale]

I know these kinds of topics have been heavily debated but:

I personally have never felt positively immersed because I couldn't get into a facility at night.

Realism only immerses me if it affects decisions that I have to face together with a PC I am roleplaying with. Like whether we have to go to a bar after dark or if we can chat outside. (Barovia vs. Dementlieu, this example)
But crafting? I am 95% going to do this when I am all by myself.

Realism is fine, but... We do have RL lives? If I have time to play PotM at 8pm and that's when I can do my crafting, that's when I want to do my crafting. And I don't particularly enjoy to be robbed of that opportunity by the ingame day and night cycle. In fact it breaks my immersion, because it makes me have to return to thinking about my RL schedule.

[BraveSirRobin]

I know these kinds of topics have been heavily debated but:

I personally have never felt positively immersed because I couldn't get into a facility at night.

Realism only immerses me if it affects decisions that I have to face together with a PC I am roleplaying with. Like whether we have to go to a bar after dark or if we can chat outside. (Barovia vs. Dementlieu, this example)
But crafting? I am 95% going to do this when I am all by myself.

Realism is fine, but... We do have RL lives? If I have time to play PotM at 8pm and that's when I can do my crafting, that's when I want to do my crafting. And I don't particularly enjoy to be robbed of that opportunity by the ingame day and night cycle. In fact it breaks my immersion, because it makes me have to return to thinking about my RL schedule.

That's kinda why I think Dementlieu would do better. It's not part of the setting there that need be suspended, if they're working people overnight. In Barovia, however, the night is supposed to be desolate and unhospitable. Locals do not want you there, and people shouldn't really feel welcome.

[foxtale]

Well if my argument is used as a base, then I'd rather not see it brought back to what's "setting relevant". I'm explicitly convinced that we shouldn't cripple ourselves based on what the setting demands from us human flesh servants if it's... you know. Not fun for us. And it might be fun for us. Who knows but the person that actually sat down, asked the server and made the statistics? But -

Again, speaking for myself: I can experience the horror of barovian nights perfectly fine knowing that somewhere someone is inside a crafting hall clicking an item every six seconds.

[Revenant]

Thread's right on the money.

If Barovian crafthalls keep their merchants at night, Dementlieu's should too. The risks have significantly less tooth and claw. If we're going to extend a convenience to crafters at one hub it makes no sense not to at the other, particularly when one is supposed to choose their hub based on level rather than preference.

[BraveSirRobin]

Well if my argument is used as a base, then I'd rather not see it brought back to what's "setting relevant". I'm explicitly convinced that we shouldn't cripple ourselves based on what the setting demands from us human flesh servants if it's... you know. Not fun for us. And it might be fun for us. Who knows but the person that actually sat down, asked the server and made the statistics? But -

Again, speaking for myself: I can experience the horror of barovian nights perfectly fine knowing that somewhere someone is inside a crafting hall clicking an item every six seconds.

If you don't think it's fun, then go somewhere else in the server where it better accommodates your particular preferences. I'm agreeing with you, insofar as OP is relevant in this thread in saying that in Dementlieu it makes sense to offer an alternative and allow crafting overnight in some facilities. It doesn't make sense that the NPCs are leaving said facilities at night, when they don't in Barovia. In Barovia, that makes perfect sense. It's the setting, and watering it down to a vaguely Gothic-themed amusement part for the flavor, but none of the negatives which come with it is -- At least in my opinion -- eliminating roleplay opportunities and motivations for characters to exit Barovia, which is part of the server's design philosophy.

I would be fine with trespassing in privately owned property, in Barovia, after-hours with the NPCs gone if you just wanted to use the workbenches. However, I think that should be seen as a crime it really is, which is breaking and entering, instead of handwaving the fact you're forcibly entering and trespassing.

Rentals can also be provided with workbenches and workstations for crafts, for the enterprising craftsman who wants to set down roots and keep a supply of materials they buy before dusk and work through the night with. There are alternatives to this particular conundrum that can be pursued very easily.

[Syl]

I do have to agree in that it makes more sense where in Dementieva they don't really believe in the horrors of Barovia their worst fear is merely the thugs. The people of Port in areas where they know there is violence leave a few hours to return to their homes and their loved ones. Or begin their night life. So to force them to be there when they should be sleeping isnt right since they are separate business owners or employees in different buildings, where as barovia while still odd after being here for 7+ years they made a crafting hall for all three shops, but makes sense at the same time since there is safety in numbers back in barovia.

[Maffa]

Despite any thug in the marchand can do any wererat in short order, I would believe that slave drivers like the dementlien shopkeepers would keep a continuous cycle of work on shifts, despite outside being dangerous.

I would argue, though, that NPCs witnessing people breaking in a shop at night should go hostile though. On the other hand, the lack of personal space and the possibility of having a personal professional space for oneself if not for the very few brick and mortar rental shops is to be balanced. Places such as Port or Hazlan should have places that allow people to craft at whatever hours of the day. Not Vallaki, though.

[Anarcoplayba]

Despite any thug in the marchand can do any wererat in short order, I would believe that slave drivers like the dementlien shopkeepers would keep a continuous cycle of work on shifts, despite outside being dangerous.

I would argue, though, that NPCs witnessing people breaking in a shop at night should go hostile though. On the other hand, the lack of personal space and the possibility of having a personal professional space for oneself if not for the very few brick and mortar rental shops is to be balanced. Places such as Port or Hazlan should have places that allow people to craft at whatever hours of the day. Not Vallaki, though.

I was going to give my two cents on this matter and it starts exactly here.

Everything in Ravenloft is a homage to terror/horror and I just recently came across this: https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-and-dragons-domains-of-dread-van-richten-guide-to-ravenloft/.

The theme of the horror changes a lot, but, as far as I can read, Dementliu is about a modern and "prosperous" society that hides an underworld of eldritch horror. "Of course we have a representative system of government. It just happens we are lucky that the representatives behave properly".

Back to the Thread: if the manufactures worked 24/7, in shifts, exploring the workers the most they can, it would be better for the nobility.

The problem would be that the thugs might attack the manufactures, unless they decided to not do that due to an unexplicable subtle control by the crime lords.

Not gonna be very explicit, but it would make sense if the workers had to work 24/7, in shifts, the workshops didn't be robbed, but the thugs still terrorize the nights.

I can't think of much more horrors than a men, women and children havind to work from 18:00 to 06:00 to earn some bread, risking to be slaughtered if they put the feet out of the workshop.

God. I can even picture the overseer threatening kicking a mother and child in the middle of the night because they are not being productive enough.

[Dardonas]

Having people leave the shop at hours 18:00-6:00 is just not fun gameplay design and people who are arguing for immersion sake have likely not engaged in crafting to understand why crafters want the shop open 24/7.

Imagine working a job or a limited schedule in any sense, then coming online to see it's night.  You essentially have to say, "oh, I guess I can't do leatherworking in Port-a-Lucine where a bank is nearby for 72 minutes, tough luck."

Crafting and the grind for it is honestly a pretty miserable experience, why are we set making that experience more miserable? 

[herkles]

so the immersion argument implies also that Barovian crafting stations should be off limits at night right?

[Syl]

Having people leave the shop at hours 18:00-6:00 is just not fun gameplay design and people who are arguing for immersion sake have likely not engaged in crafting to understand why crafters want the shop open 24/7.

Imagine working a job or a limited schedule in any sense, then coming online to see it's night.  You essentially have to say, "oh, I guess I can't do leatherworking in Port-a-Lucine where a bank is nearby for 72 minutes, tough luck."

Crafting and the grind for it is honestly a pretty miserable experience, why are we set making that experience more miserable?

People that do crafts understand that there is a time frames on shops and I dont hear many of them if any conplain.

People wanna make orders for things? They know it will be made as soon as it can be. If ymthey are stuck waiting for the next morning. Ig because it is night time? Oh well!

[bloodless]

Immersion means jack all when the vast, vast, vast majority of crafting is done in long batches, alone, mindlessly clicking a button every six or more seconds, rinse, repeat. In practice the grind is an ooc one, and a miserable one to boot. Have the shops be open 24/7 and stocked on all necessary reagents (once again I am looking at you, Vallaki, and your abysmal coal situation). If it offends the immersive sensibilities of folk, then only enter then during what you would consider sensible working hours, and leave again once those run out. Live and let live. Simples.

[zDark Shadowz]

Having people leave the shop at hours 18:00-6:00 is just not fun gameplay design and people who are arguing for immersion sake have likely not engaged in crafting to understand why crafters want the shop open 24/7.

No, I've done a lot of crafting before stating my opinion, don't worry.

[BraveSirRobin]

Having people leave the shop at hours 18:00-6:00 is just not fun gameplay design and people who are arguing for immersion sake have likely not engaged in crafting to understand why crafters want the shop open 24/7.

Imagine working a job or a limited schedule in any sense, then coming online to see it's night.  You essentially have to say, "oh, I guess I can't do leatherworking in Port-a-Lucine where a bank is nearby for 72 minutes, tough luck."

Crafting and the grind for it is honestly a pretty miserable experience, why are we set making that experience more miserable?

I wouldn't argue that Barovia is a very industrious or cosmopolitan region to engage in bulk manufacturing and crafting to the extent you'd need a 24/7 crafting service there. Part of what people seem to keep calling Barovia, 'miserable,' about is Barovia being Barovia. I've crafted, and worked with crafters, and crafters who really want to get ahead in life go to Dementlieu because forges and tanneries there can be operated around the clock with relative ease. Herbalists go to Mist Camp, and Dementlieu to do their bulk herbalism production. That is part of the server's design, to incentivize people to not hang around Barovia/Vallaki longer than they strictly must-- Including RP XP penalties.

[EO]

I'll add a leatherworking store to the salesman NPC and move the leatherworking store option to the main dialog branch of the foreman.