Author Topic: Replacing edelweiss  (Read 773 times)

Bouquet of Lotuses

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Replacing edelweiss
« on: July 29, 2021, 12:28:24 PM »
Since Edelweiss will no longer provide invisibility, what will be done to replace it? There was some discussion of this in the minor issues thread but I feel it deserves its own topic.

Edelweiss provided a low-magic, lore-neat, accessible option for non-magic characters. As was pointed out in minor issues, replacing it with something high-cost is a heavy nerf to rogues/non-magic sneaks/non-magic PCs in general.

Can an equivalent plant or other item be provided which replaces edelweiss?

The server benefits from when mundane or off-meta classes are able to do content by preparing accordingly. Losing edelweiss' benefits pushes the server further into a "mundanes need not apply" meta.
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ladylena

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2021, 12:52:10 PM »
You can buy potions and scrolls if you have UMD.

I will be honest I'll miss the edelweiss invisibility flower as it's been great when there are no one around selling invis potions

Bouquet of Lotuses

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2021, 12:55:21 PM »
Edelweiss has drawbacks to make up for being available in the situations you note.
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ladylena

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2021, 01:01:46 PM »
Edelweiss has drawbacks to make up for being available in the situations you note.

what draw backs? I've been using the edelweiss for years. Sure it's only available in a few places, and it is like 300-400 gp, but what real drawbacks?

Bouquet of Lotuses

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2021, 01:06:28 PM »
Edelweiss has drawbacks to make up for being available in the situations you note.

what draw backs? I've been using the edelweiss for years. Sure it's only available in a few places, and it is like 300-400 gp, but what real drawbacks?

The drawbacks you mentioned, as well as having a short duration.

Edelweiss already existed in the server, I'm just asking for a replacement in some form as it was never an issue that it existed before. Scrolls are hardly viable for all characters and it's nice to have an alternative to potions. No damage is caused by putting it back in under some other form.
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Dardonas

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2021, 01:57:50 PM »
Eidelweiss also helped to keep the invisibility potion market in check.  Truthfully, it being removed is going to harm mundane classes like rogues the worst.  With beguiler introduced that is a ninjalooter on steroids, rogues already have it the roughest out of all the classes with access to lockpicking despite opening chests and stealing treasure being a core part of the class fantasy. 

I thought the current design philosophy was to make it so that mundane classes could compete with magic casters, so  it strikes me as an odd move to remove eidelweiss.  Now rogues just have it that much harder to try and compete with other ninjalooting classes.
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Bouquet of Lotuses

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2021, 02:11:56 PM »
Eidelweiss also helped to keep the invisibility potion market in check.  Truthfully, it being removed is going to harm mundane classes like rogues the worst.  With beguiler introduced that is a ninjalooter on steroids, rogues already have it the roughest out of all the classes with access to lockpicking despite opening chests and stealing treasure being a core part of the class fantasy. 

I thought the current design philosophy was to make it so that mundane classes could compete with magic casters, so  it strikes me as an odd move to remove eidelweiss.  Now rogues just have it that much harder to try and compete with other ninjalooting classes.

Well said, thank you.
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ladylena

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2021, 02:17:41 PM »
Eidelweiss also helped to keep the invisibility potion market in check.  Truthfully, it being removed is going to harm mundane classes like rogues the worst.  With beguiler introduced that is a ninjalooter on steroids, rogues already have it the roughest out of all the classes with access to lockpicking despite opening chests and stealing treasure being a core part of the class fantasy. 

I thought the current design philosophy was to make it so that mundane classes could compete with magic casters, so  it strikes me as an odd move to remove eidelweiss.  Now rogues just have it that much harder to try and compete with other ninjalooting classes.

Well said, thank you.

Perfectly put

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2021, 02:28:41 PM »
Nothing is stopping classes without invisibility access from picking Ravenclaw and hiring a herbalist PC to process them for a sweet discount on invis potions. The character might even do it for the price of the bottles if you catch them in a good mood.

Given the wide availability of ravenclaw and its low DC for potion making, I don't think the invis potion market will be affected.

Kaninchen

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2021, 02:29:09 PM »
Greetings! I play a filthy ninjalooting rogue, and in my experience, about 2-3 years at this point, I've not once bought edelweiss to ninja-loot with. There are other sources of invisibility out there, as mentioned UMD as one, potions as another.

If the cost of invisibility potions does increase, that just puts an incentive to invest in learning herbalism, or making friends with an herbalist, as I did in my early days. A business arrangement of "I bring you a ton of herbs, including the one(s) needed for invisibility potions, and you make them for me for cheap.

I'll also say that invisibility isn't a requirement to ninja-looot, it just makes is safer to do so.

I'm inclined to say there doesn't need need to be a replacement for it, but might consider adding a vendor who sells some form of invisibility in the Drain similar to what can be found in the black market in Lucine, as I don't recall coming across one.

Bouquet of Lotuses

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2021, 02:48:21 PM »
Greetings! I play a filthy ninjalooting rogue, and in my experience, about 2-3 years at this point, I've not once bought edelweiss to ninja-loot with. There are other sources of invisibility out there, as mentioned UMD as one, potions as another.

If the cost of invisibility potions does increase, that just puts an incentive to invest in learning herbalism, or making friends with an herbalist, as I did in my early days. A business arrangement of "I bring you a ton of herbs, including the one(s) needed for invisibility potions, and you make them for me for cheap.

I'll also say that invisibility isn't a requirement to ninja-looot, it just makes is safer to do so.

I'm inclined to say there doesn't need need to be a replacement for it, but might consider adding a vendor who sells some form of invisibility in the Drain similar to what can be found in the black market in Lucine, as I don't recall coming across one.

Relying on UMD is great if you're a meta rogue who can use magic--there are, after all, large portions of the Core whose people don't allow magic. Staying true to the lore inherently already puts characters at a severe disadvantage. I encourage players to consider the perspectives of those who rely on mundane solutions to deal with the overwhelming "just do magic" meta.
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Kaninchen

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2021, 02:54:10 PM »
Hence why I mentioned in my first post there are already places in the module you can acquire sources of invis, if you don't wish to utilize UMD, as an option for people who aren't rogues.

To rogues who wish to not use UMD, I'll reiterate that invis isn't mandatory to sneak/ninjaloot.

Bouquet of Lotuses

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2021, 03:01:04 PM »
Yes, but now acquiring invisibility is more difficult. Why did it need to be more difficult? When was it an issue?
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Dardonas

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2021, 03:18:33 PM »
Hence why I mentioned in my first post there are already places in the module you can acquire sources of invis, if you don't wish to utilize UMD, as an option for people who aren't rogues.

To rogues who wish to not use UMD, I'll reiterate that invis isn't mandatory to sneak/ninjaloot.

With the way that stealth is broken, it is essential.  If you use lockpicks, you break stealth.  If you loot too fast and fail a MS check, you break stealth.  Broken stealth in a dungeon is a dead rogue. 

It may not be "required," but a ninjalooter who isn't using invisibility are likely the ones you end up scraping out of a dungeon when it's being done.
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Kaninchen

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2021, 03:30:59 PM »
Aye, I had mentioned in an old thread it was silly that setting traps, and using lock picks, breaks stealth.  It was stated, although I don't think in the thread, by a dev they could look at making lockpicks not break stealth, but it seems to not be a huge priority, lol.

As for failing an MS check due to looting too fast, do you not think that is an executions error, and should have some drawback for the mistake? Ninjalooter's, overall, have it pretty easy, and can basically print money. They are honestly the Federal Reserve of the server, and a good reason there is such high inflation on various prices across the board. To me, there should be a risk for failing a looting check like that.

I've died doing it before. Usually happens due to a lag spike, and opening/closing a chest too many times. Sucks, and is inconvenient, but happens, and just go with it. At times, I've come across backpacks of gold, and some flavor of shadow strikes, but no body, due to other people having failed a check of some sort. My PC just had a big pay day, if I can't see the body. 


Glass Cannon

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2021, 03:38:28 PM »
They are honestly the Federal Reserve of the server, and a good reason there is such high inflation on various prices across the board. To me, there should be a risk for failing a looting check like that.

It's the other way around. Inflation happens because there's more gold on the server. Having many ninjalooters actually decreases prices on some items.

It might increase other prices (e.g. potions) because more ninjalooters have cash to throw at crafters.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 03:49:18 PM by Glass Cannon »
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Bouquet of Lotuses

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2021, 04:03:06 PM »
I'm seeing a few arguments, but still no reason why it ought to be removed in the first place.

"It doesn't affect anyone, there are equal alternatives"
-> The lore of the server causes many players to not be able to use those alternatives.
-> Access to invisibility potions is dictated by character strength, player timezone/playtimes, and meta availability in the marketplace.
->Edelweiss provided a reliable if costly way for newer and non-meta PCs to manage some content, travel, or prevent deaths.

It does hurt some characters, the characters who are already "behind" the meta and need small things like this the most. It doesn't hurt anyone in any way to keep it in.

It doesn't affect or hurt established ninjalooters with scrolls and UMD or beguiler levels.
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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2021, 04:22:16 PM »
When we first introduced herbalism, we pretty much removed potions from all shops (you could buy potions of invisibility, healing, barkskin, etc.) everywhere to promote the crafting economy; we did the same thing with magical armor/weapons when we introduced smithing. We've kept a few consumables here and there.

A rogue who specializes in ninjalooting shouldn't be burning through invisibility anyway; if you have decent stealth and open lock (which a rogue would have), you can get around most places without these consumables or ever breaking stealth; it's not like we have dozens of monsters with +50 Spot/Listen. It's other classes that want to ninja that need invisibility more.

And yes, some changes will hurt people. Most of our changes in recent years have made things easier, sometimes things will be harder.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2021, 04:35:30 PM »
As a "ninjalooter" multiclasser rogue who used invisibility to replace stealth as my first character here -- I got into invisibility through learning herbalism for my mundane class.

I dont recall buying edelweiss offhand early on, but I did make my own invisibility and that's been good enough.

Invisibility is a powerful tool that probably shouldn't be buyable. If a mundane class wanted to stay mundane about it, then, stealth points. Otherwise, the potion isnt a particularly high DC, amateur herbalists can usually get around the range of being able to make it within a couple of weeks.

As I posted in the thread when it was going to be corrected, I'll miss the free invisibility use when I found it as a drop, but as others pointed out, there are a lot of other invisibility item drops, from rokuma mirror masks to ebon night belts and rings of invisibility.. you aren't left wanting.

What they are though, these items, are loot and drops. Incentive to get out and explore the world for items that you can't get for cheap in a shop unless someone else put them there.

The removal of edelweiss is going to hurt more stationary roleplayers that wanted to use invisibility as a supplement to stealth so they could run and walk, or a way to avoid mundane guards (that dont have clarity of vision / combat awareness) and an IC away to go past NPCs without "ignoring the setting", this is true...

..but...

... it also means if you dont have the means to get invisibility powers on your own terms for whatever reason, it would require interaction with other people. For this last reason alone, it can only be a good thing. Finding a merchant you can trust that will sell you invisibility without outing you to other people that may be looking for you specifically when you cant stealth properly yourself is part of the fun and risk of covert ops in a roleplay server. Role with it.
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Bouquet of Lotuses

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2021, 04:38:57 PM »
Thank you for your response.

As noted above, some actions force stealth breaks such as using lockpicks.

Additionally, there are a number of items in the game which also have potion versions available (such as remove disease, which edelweiss is being changed to). What is the design reason behind enforcing "magic and potions only" for one spell but not many others which are available in plant or non-potion consumable form? Did the development team feel that edelweiss use was cutting into herbalism profits? As far as I am aware that was never an issue, and only came up because someone noticed that edelweiss had inconsistent uses in the module. Why not remove edelweiss entirely as well as all of the other plants?

Additionally, this doesn't hurt just ninjalooters. As noted in the "minor issues" thread, this hurts low-level characters and mundane characters. Why not add a replacement with a higher price?
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2021, 05:07:36 PM »
Theyve already stated they removed a number of items when herbalism was introduced to move people onto herbalism.

A level 2 spell that invalidates someones detection training is pretty OP, but potions of invisibility were usually sold by players at a far cheaper price, and if you really are willing to pay more for invisibility potions than edelweiss was priced at I'm sure there are MANY herbalists that would love to accommodate you.

Buying off players instead of NPCs is healthier for the community too, there's no economic gold loss into the void with this transaction.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 05:14:42 PM by zDark Shadowz »
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Dardonas

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2021, 07:30:44 PM »
When we first introduced herbalism, we pretty much removed potions from all shops (you could buy potions of invisibility, healing, barkskin, etc.) everywhere to promote the crafting economy; we did the same thing with magical armor/weapons when we introduced smithing. We've kept a few consumables here and there.

A rogue who specializes in ninjalooting shouldn't be burning through invisibility anyway; if you have decent stealth and open lock (which a rogue would have), you can get around most places without these consumables or ever breaking stealth; it's not like we have dozens of monsters with +50 Spot/Listen. It's other classes that want to ninja that need invisibility more.

And yes, some changes will hurt people. Most of our changes in recent years have made things easier, sometimes things will be harder.

You also mentioned possibly putting in an alternative.  Is this still on the table?  Arguments aside for a moment, if the issue is eidelweiss is cheap then perhaps make it so that it’s more of an emergency option to buy invisibility for 1000 gold? 

Theyve already stated they removed a number of items when herbalism was introduced to move people onto herbalism.

A level 2 spell that invalidates someones detection training is pretty OP, but potions of invisibility were usually sold by players at a far cheaper price, and if you really are willing to pay more for invisibility potions than edelweiss was priced at I'm sure there are MANY herbalists that would love to accommodate you.

Buying off players instead of NPCs is healthier for the community too, there's no economic gold loss into the void with this transaction.

When possible my rogues would buy potions which sell for far cheaper than eidelweiss.  Eidelweiss as an invisibility supplement both weighs more and is more expensive than most player sold tonics.



There is this argument about just using hide and move silent and essentially rawdog these dungeons with those skills.  Even with a character with 70 hide/ms, you will break stealth and enemy monsters will see you.  You cannot use lock picks, a core rogue tool for certain chests, as they break stealth.  You will pick something up too fast and break stealth, it’s a given.  And if you lose stealth in a place like the well or another dungeon, you’re going to get killed.  For people to say otherwise, and I mean this respectfully, is out of touch with how stealth functions.  I invite people to try and do simple dungeons such as the well—low end stealth items, lower level—without an invisibility mechanic and watch how quickly enemies will pile on them by just slightly tickling an item the wrong way.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 07:43:51 PM by Dardonas »
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Kaninchen

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2021, 08:54:19 PM »
Honestly, there are already places in the module you can find other invisibility options cheaper than 1,000 a bottle. You might considering seeking such things out, if that's your preference.

As to breaking stealth on picking up items while ninjalooting, if you can't pick up an item without breaking stealth, it means that you're PC clearly isn't meant to be trying to ninjaloot those places, yes?  If you can't open the chests without a lock pick, probably means the character shouldn't be attempting it, doesn't it?  In terms of ninjalooting, the well actually isn't a "simple dungeon." Monsters there actually have above average detect scores, so far as the things go. Some more than others. This means some chests are riskier to try. Some items are also riskier to try and pick up.

e: removed a negative sounding line.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 09:00:18 PM by Kaninchen »

Dardonas

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2021, 09:07:44 PM »
Honestly, there are already places in the module you can find other invisibility options cheaper than 1,000 a bottle. You might considering seeking such things out, if that's your preference.

As to breaking stealth on picking up items while ninjalooting, if you can't pick up an item without breaking stealth, it means that you're PC clearly isn't meant to be trying to ninjaloot those places, yes?  If you can't open the chests without a lock pick, probably means the character shouldn't be attempting it, doesn't it?  In terms of ninjalooting, the well actually isn't a "simple dungeon." Monsters there actually have above average detect scores, so far as the things go. Some more than others. This means some chests are riskier to try. Some items are also riskier to try and pick up.

e: removed a negative sounding line.

If they can open the chest and get the loot, they can get the loot.  There isn't a "probably shouldn't be able to get it" if you get it at level 3 as opposed to level 17.  The removal of eidelweiss is only harming rogues more than anything.  Shadowdancers, classes with access to invisibility like Beguiler and Assassin, Monks -- all these classes are unharmed by the removal of it.  The addition of Beguiler already slaps rogue in the face pretty hard as a class.  It just makes it more and more harder to compete and justify playing the Rogue class as anything more than a dip when they are continually nerfed inadvertently by the introduction of a class that does everything better or the removal of items that make their lives more convenient.
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Siobhan

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Re: Replacing edelweiss
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2021, 09:43:02 PM »
I think this thread is getting a bit derailed.

There's a ton of Ravenclaw on the server! Instead of farming gold for an NPC vendor, go flower picking, network with a herbalist, and get invis potions.

Or even just buy invis potions from a player for what you would have spent at the NPC. You can stock up and put them in storage until you need them.