Author Topic: Ezrite Templar Philosophies  (Read 1090 times)

Praying Mantis

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Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« on: July 20, 2021, 01:05:31 PM »
Hi all. So there are some tremendous RP resources for the followers of Ezra on the forum.  Probably the most extensive I've ever seen.  Most of it is geared towards general philosophy of that revelation, and particularly towards the cleric though.  If you had to make something similar to Heretics "5 Things every Xxx" should know but do it for templars, how would that look do you think?  Obviously templars of the third revelation are going to be very different than the others and so on.  Just seems like an interesting discussion

Haeresis

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2021, 03:50:05 PM »
Templars are a homebrew way of including classes that aren't cleric into the faction (Any class that isn't an arcane spellcaster really), so it makes sense that there's only a fraction of information available about them as opposed to the canon lore surrounding Ezra. It's been a while since I played my Templar but I'll try to give it some thought.

I found the following in my notes from when I played him:
"Templars are members of the laity given special responsibility within their Church. Though they take everyday orders from and regularly work with all anchorites of their church, they answer ultimately to the head of their congregation, the Sentire, and are tasked with protecting the physical building of the church, and frequently the clergy and laity therein."

It implies that:
1) A templar was baptized into a particular sect, as a layman, so they have both some cultural motivations for belonging to a specific sect (such as growing up in proximity of a particular church), and perhaps personal convictions that may or may not align with their sect.
2) Regardless of how the templar feels on the inside, he is still expected to serve ALL Anchorites.

One example I've seen often In Game is the question which the LG Templar asks himself. "If a 4th Secter gives me an order which is Evil, do I still have to obey it?"

The answer in that case can be complicated because obviously it'd depend on the context. The textbook answer would be that the Lawful Good Templar is always expected to follow a Lawful Evil Anchorite's orders because their sense of duty, and respect for the greater organizational structure of the Church, should ALWAYS take precedence over their need to morally oppose their comrades in faith. There's always room for argument though, especially because at the end of the day they answer to the head of their congregation.

I think it's hard to paint a picture of how Templars of each sect differ from one another because members of the laity, since they are not Anchorites, don't actually need to be the same alignment as their sect. You could have a Chaotic Good character who grew up alongside the Pure Hearts and so was baptized in their sect, a Lawful Evil character who belongs to the Home Faith, etc. And it's something I'd encourage doing if someone wanted to play against type because that ideological clash would give birth to great moral questions.

If we were talking about the majority of Templars, I think it'd be a bit different. In terms of alignment, Lawfulness is what is most expected of a Templar who swears an oath to protect and serve the great institution of the Church of Ezra. As I said, unity and orthodoxy would be expected to take precedence over moral convictions. So it follows that the role would attract people of Lawful nature.

So how does a 3rd Sect Templar look like? Given the cultural contexts of Dementlieu and Richemulot, I think it'd be right to think they are probably vastly different from their Lawful counterparts. Personally, I'd imagine them as having less of a focus on combat and physical defense of the Church as per the Crusader archetype showcased elsewhere. They are probably closer to what you'd imagine an agent of the Church would be in a civilized, social setting. They probably serve more often than not as eyes and ears and agents of subtlety. As field agents for the pursuit of secret knowledge coveted by their Anchorite masters. At least, that's how I'd want to play one.

HouseOfLament

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2021, 03:56:50 PM »
The lack of a mechanical need for alignment to match Revelation outside of Cleric as Haeresis pointed out above always stood out to me as most thematically interesting when rolling a templar or layperson.  I would not worry terribly much about making a Templar correctly if that is a concern because there is an in character learning period before one achieves that role.  I found my own time as an Acolyte to be very helpful in playing a Warden.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 03:59:05 PM by HouseOfLament »
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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2021, 01:55:49 AM »
These are both quite on point. I think that the role of the Templar can be approached by anyone wanting to serve the church in a more 'physical' regard. That being said, my templar has even taken a role as a very spiritual person and thus as a spiritual guide, though always from a layperson's perspective rather than that of an Anchorite.

I would suggest beginning with the framework that has been mentioned, which is the expectation of any Templar regardless of sect. That is to their duty to the church and to the faithful. That duty may be mundane such as escorting, protecting, or standing guard, or it may be something more nuanced as required by some of the more nuanced sects.

Much of the initial RP that I partook in and enjoyed was reconciling my Templar's personal beliefs, calling, and their past life, with the duty that they were being called to. This will be unique for every person and it is the roleplay that shapes how I engage with anyone now expressing interest or wishing to enter into my tutelage.

On another note, I entered the faction exactly where you are, not knowing anything about the Templar role. I wanted to know more and about what it looks like on the server and faced the same questions. I was also able to learn in game through RP. This was enjoyable because I think it also resembled what it should look like. From the outside the templar just look like the guards and people standing around, but as with anyone there is always more to it than face value.
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MAB77

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2021, 12:16:29 PM »
The lack of a mechanical need for alignment to match Revelation outside of Cleric [...]

I would just like to point out here that Anchorites are only subject to the deity alignment rule as any other clerics. It does not apply to the sects.

The sects are respectively LN, LG, LE and TN organizations. While the bulk of their anchorites will be of those alignments, individual members can deviate from that norm. Being of the same alignment simply makes it easier to follow the party line. Some eyebrows may be raised if someone notices your Shield of Ezra behaves differently, but there is no restriction against anchorites being of a different alignment than that of their sect.
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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2021, 12:35:08 PM »
To my knowledge, this is not made clear anywhere and there is definitely a belief amongst the faction that your alignment must match up with your sect. You manifest the Shield of whichever revelation, they are described as being identifiably different and gifted by Ezra. I do not know how you could be running around manifesting a Shield of the Second Revelation whilst simultaneously claiming to belong to the Fourth Revelation.

MAB77

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2021, 02:17:15 PM »
To my knowledge, this is not made clear anywhere and there is definitely a belief amongst the faction that your alignment must match up with your sect. You manifest the Shield of whichever revelation, they are described as being identifiably different and gifted by Ezra. I do not know how you could be running around manifesting a Shield of the Second Revelation whilst simultaneously claiming to belong to the Fourth Revelation.

Nowhere in the source material, nor our forum, will you read that the Shield of Ezra is visually different from a sect to another. The official description being that it's a film of luminous mists (see Ravenloft PHB p.67). Anchorites of all alignments use the same visual effect in-game. The differences are only in the protection it grants. You would need empirical testing to figure out which is which. Short of trying to run your sword through an Anchorite, you will not know if that anchorite is protected from mind-affecting spells or blades. Technically, an anchorite may not even be aware or noticed his Shield of Ezra behaves differently than that of another until he had cause to invoke it.

As it happens, my own lawful good anchorite was a member of the Home faith for quite a while before converting to the Pure Hearts. I can very well see a lawful neutral Mordentish anchorite of the Pure Hearts holding to the tenets and practices of that sect out of an ethical sense duty over morally-binding concerns.

Anchorites changing alignments after they were ordained a warden is something that happens too.

It goes without saying, someone going through the rigorous training of either sects is more than likely to share that sect's alignment, so we are discussing about rare exceptions here. But as it goes, it's not against the rules to deviate a bit. Will it makes the Inquisition inquire about you? Most certainly, but that's what makes it fun! And when the orthodoxy fail's you, that's when you apply for the People's Champion PrC!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 02:20:52 PM by MAB77 »
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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2021, 02:28:45 PM »
I see your point that it isn't explicitly against the rules but in our teachings of the histories it was stuff like "Bastion Raines goes back to Levkarest and is found to have a different shield" I forget what the rite is called to start a new revelation. Now, if the way that is done is by torturing the anchorite until they are immune to something new then that is fine but the way that it's handled IC is that it's assumed to look distinct from the other shields. Many anchorites in the past have emoted something along the lines of 'he manifests a shield of the second revelation.'

DM Tenebris

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2021, 03:05:04 PM »
I think it's important to note on the topic of the Mist Shield, that the ways to visually depict them server side is rather limited.

See this regarding the Rite of Revelation:

Quote
To be recognized as a new bastion, a petitioner must complete several tasks. First, and most simply, the supplicant must personally pen her new Book of Ezra and deliver a copy to the Great Cathedral for review. The Great Cathedral has a full library of these texts, most filled with deranged heresies.

Second, the petitioner must manifest a new variety of the shield of Ezra (available only to clerics with the Mists domain), demonstrating that the goddess has revealed a new aspect of her protection. Lastly, the supplicant must present five anchorites, usually her followers, who manifest the same, new variety of the shield of Ezra, demonstrating that the goddess wishes this new chapter of her teachings to spread. Should the supplicant pass all three tests, she is recognized as the leader of a new sect. All but three such petitions have been discounted in the past, sometimes revealed as purposeful attempts to subvert the faith. Many anchorites, however, believe that a fifth sect will someday appear. This, the Final Sect, will at last reveal the final aspects of Ezra’s Grand Scheme and will herald that it is at last coming to its ultimate fruition.

So in some way, either the elders, the veterans, whoever, have a means to somehow differentiate each shield. Do they recognize it through the way it looks? Do they try and swing a sledge hammer to their face in hopes that it doesn't kill them? I'd think the latter is a bit silly and doesn't make much sense for that religion as a whole, but it is the only way you can mechanically "prove" it in-game. Anyhow it's not something that's clearly defined so it is essentially left to our interpretation at this stage, and I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that each sect has a visually different shield, it's just not represented in-game at this time.

MAB77

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2021, 03:50:13 PM »
Yes and no.

Granted, the rules do not clarify if the Shield is visually different for each sect or not. As far as I am concerned it could even be a mix of both. However, we use the "what you see is what you get" approach on the module. As it is all anchorites get encased in a film of luminous green mists. It would be quite easy to make the shield of Ezra be of a different color for each alignments. I believe it was even used in a 5th heresy plot. So to me, a pure heart stating he manifests a shield of the second revelation is not technically wrong, but it disregards that each sects look the same regardless and broadcasts an ooc information needlessly.

As to what is taught in game, it is just that in-game lore and dogmas that need not be the truth. It makes perfect sense that people would believe in-game that each anchorites of a same sect only display the same shield. It would be true 99% of time, and deviating from orthodoxy makes the inquisition nervous. But even the rules account for individual anchorites having shields with different properties. A fact most believe as "Ezra having a special purpose" for that Anchorite. So it is an established fact that not everyone in a given sect has the same Shield.
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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2021, 03:56:24 PM »
Sure but making the Inquisition nervous has the potential side effect of you getting excommunicated. So again, I take your point that it isn't oocly against any rules and as you say it could have IC consequences. But one way or the other, someone can differentiate between them without testing all of an anchorites resistances and it surely isn't unreasonable that people tend to take that as them looking different.

MAB77

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2021, 04:02:30 PM »
Sure but making the Inquisition nervous has the potential side effect of you getting excommunicated. So again, I take your point that it isn't oocly against any rules and as you say it could have IC consequences. But one way or the other, someone can differentiate between them without testing all of an anchorites resistances and it surely isn't unreasonable that people tend to take that as them looking different.

I frankly do not know about that. It's the first time ever I hear of players roleplaying the shield as being different. It's just not something that came up in my time as an Ezrite. You manifested the shield or you didn't is all that mattered. Anchorites believe as a Dogma that the shield cannot be faked after all. Scrutiny from the inquisition never was about having the "right shield" per say, but more that an anchorite of a different alignment than its sect is more likely to engage in activities that will raise questions. A non-green Shield of Ezra would have raised eyebrows though, as not being able to invoke it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 04:06:57 PM by MAB77 »
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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2021, 04:06:02 PM »
So as tenebris is a DM is it acceptable to be of a different alignment from your sect as a cleric?


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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2021, 03:24:17 PM »
People tend to get straitjacketed to the concept of alignment. You can absolutely be a third sect Warden or Templar who is lawful good, however over time your alignment would be, and should be, tested to the point where it either changes, or you can no longer operate within that structure.

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2021, 03:32:12 PM »
To my understanding, all of the Shields manifest differently, and it's supported by the lore due to the method in which shields are identified by the Bastions and their clergy. It states you must manifest a unique shield; A Cleric claiming to be of the Third Revelation manifesting the Second's shield would likely not be identified as a member of the Third Revelation. You can be a Second Revelation Cleric within the Third's household, such as Ste. Mere-des-Larmes, I'm sure -- But insofar as I am aware, what defines your sect is not the location in which you preach, but the system of faiths and ideals you have been baptized into.

I find it highly unlikely that during your trials when your shield was manifested, for say, the Third Revelation, or the Fourth Revelation, that no-one involved will have noticed your beliefs and your shield reflect another ideology.


Yes and no.

Granted, the rules do not clarify if the Shield is visually different for each sect or not. As far as I am concerned it could even be a mix of both. However, we use the "what you see is what you get" approach on the module. As it is all anchorites get encased in a film of luminous green mists. It would be quite easy to make the shield of Ezra be of a different color for each alignments. I believe it was even used in a 5th heresy plot. So to me, a pure heart stating he manifests a shield of the second revelation is not technically wrong, but it disregards that each sects look the same regardless and broadcasts an ooc information needlessly.

As to what is taught in game, it is just that in-game lore and dogmas that need not be the truth. It makes perfect sense that people would believe in-game that each anchorites of a same sect only display the same shield. It would be true 99% of time, and deviating from orthodoxy makes the inquisition nervous. But even the rules account for individual anchorites having shields with different properties. A fact most believe as "Ezra having a special purpose" for that Anchorite. So it is an established fact that not everyone in a given sect has the same Shield.

Were this an entirely true statement, then you would be forced to concede that Divine and Arcane spellcasting, save for exclusive spells, is entirely visually similar, despite the fact that it divine spellcasters do not have a somatic component to their spellcraft by their class lores, it is in the form of prayers and chants and so forth which is why they can all wear heavy armor. Likewise, were this true, Sorcerer's magic and Wizard's magic would be visually indistinguishable, and thus the OCR system would not be able to differentiate it without exceptions.

It is stated in the lore that these shields are each unique. I do not believe the WYSIWYG approach being plastered wholesale is entirely appropriate, nor is suggesting it is broadcasting unnecessary OOC information due to the visual limitations of the shields.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 03:36:31 PM by BraveSirRobin »

MAB77

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2021, 08:06:05 AM »
What you "understand" is one possibility and interpretation of what it could be. A valid one for sure, but not one supported by current server mechanics and rules.

"Manifesting differently" is as likely to mean visually than referring only to the protection if provides. I scoured the source materials: the Kargatane's Book of Secrets, Domains of Dread, the 3e Gazetteers. I could not find any definitive proof that the change is visual (or isn't). It's vague. The one and only canon visual description of the Shield of Ezra describes it as a "film of luminous Mists encasing the anchorite". Nowhere is there any mention of a different shape, color, mists density etc. If they are different it isn't clearly explained how so anywhere. I suspect it was left vague on purpose to let DMs decide which is which in their own games.

If I favor the later, the Shield being different only in its effects, it is for practical reasons and in accordance to how it is currently set up on our module, not because I oppose the Shield being visually different from one another. Three points to consider.

* According to the rules as written, the Shield of Ezra is tied to one's alignment and not the sect. This causes issues to handle alignment shifts on Anchorite PCs. Having the Shield being visually the same gives a bit of a leeway by not making it a too obvious clue that a character changed. I fully agree that an anchorite passing his test should be manifesting the Shield of the sect that trained him. At the very least the anchorite's alignment should be matching the sect at the time of the test. It is afterwards that alignments should be allowed to shift, leaving the room open for stories of corruption and redemption.

* Making it different also makes it easier for others to metagame a player's alignment. That runs against a key Ravenloft concept that moral alignment should not be easily divined. Granted the sole fact of being in a particular sect is a huge clue in itself, but at least the alignment is not deduced by exploiting a mechanical point.

* You took the WYSIWYG argument to an extreme beyond the context of the current issue. I won't debate that in full here. My sole point is that our in-game Shield isn't scripted to provide any clues to differentiate between the sects. If we wanted it to be the case, it would be, that would be very easy to implement. As it stands, player's are not required to provide any details that may be used to metagame. This applies to the Shield as it does everything else in the module. Anchorites are not required to reveal what sect they are part of, or what variant of the Shield was invoked. That is all the facts you need to confirm that, within the module, the Shield visually manifests in the same way for all anchorites.

Can it be changed? Yes. Easily.
Should it be changed? I don't see any benefits in changing the current setup. It currently satisfies all the mechanical rules of the setting.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2021, 10:05:43 AM »
I'm not taking WYSIWYG to an extreme. I'm just saying that it isn't really a good shield to hide behind (get it? shield?) when you consider all of the other limitations of the NWN engine and VFX on the module which, if they followed the same set of rules, would also be absolutely WYSIWYG. A rule is not a good rule if it has to have asterisks placed after it for every incident, though then again perhaps that is why this rule is an unspoken one and not actually listed in the player journals or forum rules compendium.

For the record, under that same argument: Divine magic isn't scripted to provide any clues to differentiate between itself, and Arcane. Sorcerers and Wizards aren't, except for the OCR system (Perhaps that should be the new rule? Cast infront of the NPCs so they can tell me if you're a Sorcerer or not?)

Each Shield does have a unique set of modifiers. If you're Lawful Good, if you hit someone, they'll have DR; If they're Evil, they won't. These things can still be deduced to a certain extent and 'tested' through in-game mechanics, but those are awfully clunky ways of doing so. There are also weapons and tools you can use on people to deduce their alignment, I suppose if that was really your aim. After-all, Bards have a Dirge of Woe which effect Evil, Neutral, and Good wholly differently and presumably could deduce via how it effected them, where they sit on the alignment scale.

If each of these Shields is unique, then it's unique. Religion was never a huge area for ambiguity in Dungeons & Dragons, anyways. Maybe other players can't, at a visual glance, learn what the Shields are, but I imagine someone at your Sect will. If you were an Acolyte of the Third Revelation in Dementlieu taking their trials, and you manifested your shield before Bastion Caille (Formerly, Seccousse)\, surely they have an inkling or are aware of the signs of a new Sect, or their own. Meaning it wouldn't make sense for someone within the Third Sect to have been brought into the Third Sect but secretly hiding their Lawful Goodness, Lawful Evilness, or so forth. I imagine if your alignment shifted whilst within a particular Sect, you aren't manifesting your shield all the time anyways, but you'll probably more sooner decide to shift to a Sect that you can morally agree with.

I think we'd have to have some manner of clarification as to how these Shields are unique from the DM Team, because one way or another, they are, and they've been roleplayed as such in-character for the last decade or more. If you remember Inquisitor Martel, he was all over the alignment axis, and served in a Sect that did not match his own alignment. However, he hid his Shield, and as an Inquisitor, who's going to ask?

MAB77

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2021, 10:13:35 AM »
I will bring the point to the Dev & DM tables to get an official ruling on the matter.
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DM Tenebris

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Re: Ezrite Templar Philosophies
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2021, 08:13:07 PM »
Please see the following regarding our official ruling on the Shield of Ezra:

Official ruling on anchorite alignments and the Shield of Ezra

This decision has been reached after careful deliberation, accounting for contradicting and imprecise lore, the actual game mechanics as per the sourcebooks, and the NWN game engine limitations.

Anchorites can be of a divergeant alignment from their respective sects.
  • Anchorites still need to follow standard cleric's alignment rule and must be within 1 step of Ezra's lawful neutral alignment.
  • Adherence to one's chosen sect tenets is important regardless of alignment. They must be followed and respected or one risks to be expelled from the congregation.
  • Anchorites of diverging alignment are rarely allowed to climb in their sect's hierarchy beyond the rank of warden. They may not be heretics, but they are unorthodox and may be passed over for promotions by their superiors.

The Shield of Ezra is visually the same for anchorites of all sects.
  • Visually, the Shield of Ezra is a film of luminous mist that envelops the anchorite and is the same for all anchorites.
  • As per the Ravenloft setting rules, the Shield of Ezra is tied to one's alignment and not the sect one belongs to. While it is understood that each variation originates from a given sect and that the bulk of anchorites from said sect will be granted that particular shield, the lore does allow for variations in the protection a particular anchorite receives. This is considered as having a different role to play in the Grand Scheme and does not necessarily implies that one must change his sect or beliefs.
  • An anchorite instinctively knows the nature of the protection bestowed by its shield. This is how the bastions knew they manifested new shields, and how an anchorite would know its purpose in the Grand Scheme changed following an alignment change.
  • Invoking the Shield does not reveal to anyone else the nature of the protection and a player isn't required to reveal it to anyone. As far as other anchorites are concerned, one has the blessing of Ezra and can manifest the shield or they don't.

If you got questions feel free to hit me up on discord.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 08:20:33 PM by DM Tenebris »